Monkday Question

[Iolaus]

Ok so if I added these features into a homebrew for Pathfinder, would it make the monk useful? Maybe even tier 4 or 3?

A Full BAB, none of this pseudo full bab you get for Maneuvers or FoB
d10 HD
6+Int, to show off the monk's intelligence

Replace FoB with Stacking Strike
Roll a 1d3 at levels 1-3, the result of the dice roll represents how many extra attacks you can make this turn. This is to represent the chaotic field of battle. Stacking Strikes are Standard Actions

Insightful Strike
Add Wis modifier to the to-hit roll and damage rolls.

Cunning Insight
Add Wis to Int and Cha based skills

Ki pool abilities
Running Ki points almost like Power Points using the Qinggong monk's list as a base and adding more spells and so forth to make the list better. But instead of selecting a single feat, ability, or spell forever the monk can make these choices as long as they have Ki points to expend that day.

Have the monk's unarmed strike count as a masterwork weapon for the purposes of the magic weapon enhancement process. Monk's can only apply abilities thematic to them such as Flaming or Ghost touch.

Raise the speed increases of the monk so at level 1 you gain a +10 ft at level 20 roughly 80+ft.

Add things like Bluff and Knowledge (Local) to the monks list as they where very good at learning things and they where known for being tricky and deceitful with their fighting style.

And the biggest one. Wis to AC when unarmored OR wearing Light armor.

[Yanisa]

Ok so if I added these features into a homebrew for Pathfinder, would it make the monk useful? Maybe even tier 4 or 3?

No.
I think the answer is no... but lets break it down.


A Full BAB, none of this pseudo full bab you get for Maneuvers or FoB
d10 HD
6+Int, to show off the monk's intelligence
It helps a bit, I don't get why people hammer the monk so badly for the low BaB. It sucks, it limit level 1 feat choices but there are too many monk feats that are halfway decent so BaB rarely prevents feats.
In combat it might stuck with single punches, at the flip side at best you gain +3 more on attacks in flurry and +5 outside flurry. It can help, but at lower levels the difference is minor and high levels items compensate for it...

But yes, it is stupid monks don't get full BaB, but giving them full BaB barely changes anything. Least of all on a tier scale.

Also higher CMB, yay?


Replace FoB with Stacking Strike
Roll a 1d3 at levels 1-3, the result of the dice roll represents how many extra attacks you can make this turn. This is to represent the chaotic field of battle. Stacking Strikes are Standard Actions

Too random, and how would it interact with two-weapon fighting? Also chaotic + monk feature. :smalltongue:
I feel it might even make the monk weaker, because it needs to take feats to get the TWF back, and without that at best you gains 2 extra attacks, which at low level is incredible, at high level it doesn't help with the underlying problem that monk barely gets anything on those attacks. More attacks is mostly useful when you got ways to deal more damage per attack. It doesn't fix anything and at best gives a slight bonus on attacks, ensuring secondary attacks might hit, but still it lacks a source of extra damage.
Also again I really dislike the random factor.


Insightful Strike
Add Wis modifier to the to-hit roll and damage rolls.
It helps, a lot, especially on the lower levels and lower average stats. But it doesn't fix anything.


Cunning Insight
Add Wis to Int and Cha based skills
Okay. Don't got a lot to say...


Ki pool abilities
Running Ki points almost like Power Points using the Qinggong monk's list as a base and adding more spells and so forth to make the list better. But instead of selecting a single feat, ability, or spell forever the monk can make these choices as long as they have Ki points to expend that day.

This could have been the ability that would push a monk into tier 4. Giving him flexibility, a bit more then just hitting people, combined with the earlier wis to hit and dam it makes him almost suitable for tier 4... If not for the major flaw of that 90% of all Qinggong abilities straight out suck. It offers a few rare gems, but most are just feats you wouldn't want to take or abilities that do jack all. Qinggong is not as golden as it sounds, if only it could do more then offer 5 good abilities.


Have the monk's unarmed strike count as a masterwork weapon for the purposes of the magic weapon enhancement process. Monk's can only apply abilities thematic to them such as Flaming or Ghost touch.
It doesn't do a lot unless you can enchant one fist and use it for all attacks... which is possible with stacking strike, but TWF would still be sort of worth it... I guess it saves a bit of gold at high level, when saving gold isn't that important. The Amulet of Natural attacks is already reduced in price, and combined with greater magic fang you already have a decent option to get a +5 fist with +5 worths of enchants.


Raise the speed increases of the monk so at level 1 you gain a +10 ft at level 20 roughly 80+ft.
More speed, yay, doesn't fix anything


Add things like Bluff and Knowledge (Local) to the monks list as they where very good at learning things and they where known for being tricky and deceitful with their fighting style.
Minor, but okay


And the biggest one. Wis to AC when unarmored OR wearing Light armor.
Yay? Cheaper early level armor at least. Oddly it would make them less wis depend, where other skills tried to make the monk more wis depend.



To sum up it does help, especially at the lower levels. Gives a bit more punch, a bit more bite but in the end it doesn't fix any of the underlying problems. You are a monk better at combat and you might reach tier 4 for that, but even compared to the Paladin of the Barbarian this monk fix is still lackluster. A lower level monk would enjoy the buffs, make it finally feel like it can hit things, but it still can't do a lot more then the normal monk.

The only worth note is your idea with the Quingong monk. But the archetype itself is limited in its use, if it had more useful abilities it probably might have given the chance to push the monk to tier 4 (or tier 3 depending on the abilities) as it stands now you gain access to a ton of feats for the cost of Ki points, but barely any of feats are still worth it. It might depend on how many Ki you get and what spells you add, but then you basically giving the monk spellcasting, and proves that spellcasting is high tier worthy, not the "monk idea".

The monk is basically a class with a ton of worthless abilities and with no interaction between abilities. Buffing the abilities makes him a bit stronger, but doesn't remove the worthless abilities and doesn't help with the fact a lot of abilities don't work together.

[Krazzman]

Ki pool abilities
Running Ki points almost like Power Points using the Qinggong monk's list as a base and adding more spells and so forth to make the list better. But instead of selecting a single feat, ability, or spell forever the monk can make these choices as long as they have Ki points to expend that day.

Have the monk's unarmed strike count as a masterwork weapon for the purposes of the magic weapon enhancement process. Monk's can only apply abilities thematic to them such as Flaming or Ghost touch.


These are the two most viable approaches to making it T4 or T3.

Depending on WHAT stuff you get from Qinggong and what you add. Currently there are just too few effects that are worth taking.

The second one is more ambiguously phrased, clarify it else there could be shenanigangs like: AoNA giving +5 bonus and having each fist, foot, knee and elbow enchanted with different stuff. Giving the monk around 11 places to enchant.

[Iolaus]

Well I think we are in agreement that the Qinggong is not the best list but it has some good things in there especially if only costing 1 ki point for the round to use. Power Attack during a flurry of blows would be useful to deal damage.
-But I agree we would need to come up with a more flexible list that shows feats, psionics, spells, and other monk abilities that make the list more useful.

As for the Stacking Strike ability yes it has chaotic elements because no matter how lawful chaos still runs them. Dice rolls are chaotic, what do you use to make attacks with FoB? Dice rolls right.
So maybe work the stacking strike ability onto flurry of blows for them to keep their TWF feats.

As for the masterwork fists. Well it allows you to consider your unarmed strike which composed all 11 places as masterwork it lets you just keep up with your flurry of blow. I am not sure what you mean about enchant one fist and use it for all attacks. Its would enchant both fsts, their feet, knees, elbows, head, etc anything they use in an Unarmed Strike. So if you added Goblinbane all of your unarmed strikes including those with FoB or SS count as goblinbane.

Now what do you mean by continuing to say "It helps but it doesn't fix" what does that mean?

[Iolaus]

The issue I am having with the previous post is the implication that Wis should not be a central focus. Except my desire is to make Monks less MAD.

Wis to dmg and to hit of all their attacks not just unarmed strikes would allow a person to pump Wis instead of Dex or Strength because it works together.

Wis to AC works the same way, with armor and the AC bonus stacking would work even better adding that needed armor boost that monks find they need with lacking AC scores.

Ki pools could be much more useful by simply using those Ki points for more then what the SRD lists them as (Adding an extra attack, increasing speed, or increasing AC) have them add 1d6 onto an attack for each point of Ki, the 1d6 is applied once as precision damage at the end of a flurry of blows. This makes dmg dealing which is often a serious issue to most monks come more easily.

You cited the Paladin and Barbarian as better classes. Except doesn't a barbarian need to be charging, pouncing, frenzing, raging, whirling, etc to do the kind of damage we expect out of them?

Paladin's have ok abilities but without spells their self buffs are lacking.

I was thinking of adding a meditation ability, a zen focus that allows a monk to restore HP to themselves. 1 Full round action, costing 1 ki point per 1d6 of HP restored with this making them open for AoO

Hell maybe add dmg to the Stunning Fist, 2d6 per four monk class levels in precision damage that stacks with the flurry of blows but only with its first successful hit.

I am ballparking ideas for my homebrew so I would love the criticism but please explain your comments better then "It helps but doesn't fix anything" Tell me what needs to be fixed and how you would like to fix it.