Honest Analysis of the "Miko" Thing

[NecroPaladin]

First off-This is a very non-PC argument; for those easily offended by me making claims about genders, please do not read. I'm not a chauvanist; but I do speak honestly and don't give a rat's *** about making arguments that make you feel good. So for the love of god don't just discard me as a pig because I define women and men as a bit different. This argument does not in any way reflect my personal view on the entire situation from the comic, but rather what I think of the majority RESPONSE to the comic.

I have been avoiding saying this, but to hell with subtlety. I think that the reason we're getting a whole lot of backlash for Miko going evil is because she has breasts. There, I finally said it. Look, it's not a sexual desire thing at all, so don't mark me off as a perv (she's a STICK FIGURE). Instead, I think that this is a perfect example of the gender roles that are unconciously filled in when a character's motives are left ambiguous (which fits Miko to a T). We have a predominantly male population on this forum, and thus the female characters garner more sympathy solely out of subconcious affection. People naturally react better to characters of the opposite gender, because they obviously do not know said gender as well as their own and thus can add Romanticized traits where the opposite of said trait is not immediately evident. I think that Miko gains too much sympathy because, even subconciously, the male readership had long ago filled the void that would later become the murder drive with the comfortable traditionalist images of the sweet, innocent young woman. Thus, the reason why it seemed so unlikely and forced to some readers when she killed Shojo. Try to imagine her as a man. If it was a male paladin who snapped like this, even if he had EXACTLY the same lines as Miko, I seriously doubt that there would be this much opposition, except for perhaps a slight increase in opposition from "Not-Miko"'s fangirls. Again reiterated, Miko is a very introverted character, and because so much of her true feelings were left unknown, we instantly assumed an idealistic template-personality because that is what is most comfortable when simply reading the character's dialogue. The brain automatically fills these gaps even when they are specifically left open; have you noticed that we seem to percieve a personality, on occasion, even in things that by defenition do not? That is because the subconcious mind by nature jumps to conclusions, and in the case of Miko, that conclusion is a stereotype picked up automatically even by the most politically-correct of men, because it is a pivotal part of our culture. It is easily believable that Miko would kill Shojo, but only if you take her character entirely from what you most decidedly know. Take only her lines, and rarely do they match the image of Miko that is widely accepted by forumgoers. Say I'm overanalyzing, I say that this happens everywhere and is unavoidable, and neither chauvanistic nor stereotyping. It's human nature to assume, and the Romanticized image of humans is currently the model that we percieve as desirable (no, NOT sexually, that's not my argument). ...Man, despite all the disclaimers, I bet I'm gonna get a lotta grief for this bomb.

ADDITION: I would like someone to get a friend or sibling who is not familiar with the comic to read it. He must be a male, as this is a psychology that, for obvious reasons, whould apply to males in this case. This is an experiment. I would like the person, if any, that does this to drop subtle hints that Miko does something bad, less so to say "Oh She's Evil" than to stop natural assumptions of "Oh She's Good." Unless the person takes a liking to Miko solely as a character (rare, because the dominant woman persona is one of the least naturally comfortable ones for men), I hypothesize that he will not find problems with an apparently good character turning evil, because she will no longer be apparently good.

[Azukar]

You're doing a psychology degree, right?

[NecroPaladin]

You're doing a psychology degree, right?

Do you really want to know? I'm actually going for Liberal Arts. I just have a passion for debate and analysis.

On a seperate note, that wasn't very deep feedback... :smallyuk:

[Krellen]

Were Miko male, I'd feel the same. I'd want to kick him in the head, slap him soundly, and work hard to set him straight. Although I probably wouldn't involve personally bedding him at any point in that, admitably. :smallbiggrin:

[skreweded]

I'm gonna have to say I agree.


Nice writing there. I completely agree, except I'm a dude, and I hate miko.


She is a ****ing bitch.

[Raxtenko]

Well, personally I disagree with your long thought out analysis. The reasons I like Miko are simple.

1.) She's a wonderful antagonist, but isn't evil.
2.) Is/was an LG character who doesn't act anything like an LG should. Wonderful writing there.
3.) She's got a nice dry wit to counterbalance the silliness of the order.
4.) Brilliant grasp of tactics, and darn good fighter.
5.) Hell, and she's NUTS. Always love the crazies. Not sure why.

And on a sid note if some crazy girl attacked me, I'd smack her one back. Or run away like sissy.

[Renegade Paladin]

You defeated most of your own argument right at the beginning. Attraction? As you yourself pointed out, she's a stick figure.

[PaladinFreak]

I think I kind of agree. Or if she just was really really ugly.

I hate her, not as a character, but as a person.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Well, personally I disagree with your long thought out analysis. The reasons I like Miko are simple.

1.) She's a wonderful antagonist, but isn't evil.
2.) Is/was an LG character who doesn't act anything like an LG should. Wonderful writing there.
3.) She's got a nice dry wit to counterbalance the silliness of the order.
4.) Brilliant grasp of tactics, and darn good fighter.
5.) Hell, and she's NUTS. Always love the crazies. Not sure why.

And on a sid note if some crazy girl attacked me, I'd smack her one back. Or run away like sissy.

*sigh* He's saying that Miko is getting unjustified flak, not only from male fans, but from people *within* the story who have preconceived ideas about Miko.

I think Necro raises an excellent point. Redcloak assumes she's putting herself on a pedestal and goes off on her. But clearly she's heard all this before from paladin-bashers. (Meh...I've heard better indignant speeches.) She's not pure or innocent, like we'd assume. She's simply very familiar with the business of killing people.

From the outset, it's been established that she's a no-nonsense and taciturn killing machine. What's more, it's obvious that she has a petty and immature understanding of "evil" or "justice." She's proven this time and time again. She's a narcissistic killer and she does it the name of her faith. There's a certain symmetrical irony in how D&D is played and in how Miko acts. She's killed mercilessly under the cowl of her cloak without batting an eye (the sorceress and her bandit father). She's never had social graces and never pretends that she does. To the audience, when she was under her cowl, she was a "he," and a very badass one at that. An assassin. Except that assassin happens to be a female paladin who is smoking hot. Nothing about Miko has ever changed, just her perceptions of her.

Necro is trying to say that you expect Miko to be purer than she is because women are expected to play it straight. On top of that, she's a paladin. Paladin characters often fall short for exactly the reasons Miko does. What's more, people want to idealize their fantasy love interests, make it "romantic," make Miko better than she actually is. Miko doesn't put herself up on the pedestal, everybody else does. She just plods through life with all the delicacy of a sledgehammer. She doesn't care about your expectations, she just wants to serve her gods and her lord (at least up until recently).

You're looking for a mystery or exemplar that isn't there. And when Miko falls short of everything she's supposed to represent, fans feel betrayed as do the evil and good characters alike, who expect their paladins to be spit-shine clean.

Miko's been driving at that ditch for a long time, and we've all seen it coming.

[Deper]

t is easily believable that Miko would kill Shojo, but only if you take her character entirely from what you most decidedly know. Take only her lines, and rarely do they match the image of Miko that is widely accepted by forumgoers.

True.

If we ignore her words and actions, what do we judge her and her character by?

As with any human being we can only judge Miko from evidence that has been presented. We have seen her speak, we have seen her act, and we have seen how others who know her view her. That is where we can draw our judgement from. We cannot judge her from her internal thoughts or feelings because those are not what she acts on. A person who kicks puppies, but really just wants to be hugged, still goes around kicking puppies.

From what we know we have seen that she is inflexible. We have seen her act in ways that only complicate the issue and rub people the wrong way because she believes that she is Right and thus can never be Wrong in her actions. We have seen her take small pieces of information and build them into huge conspiracies around them, making them bigger and bigger, more and more unlikely, until it drove her to kill. And when a sober second party that she trusted told her that her "logic" went too far she just brushed it off and went further.

That is how we know her character. The way she thinks is shown in her speech. She had days to ride back, and not once did she ever think that the Order of the Stick were anything but guilty. Upon hearing that Shojo had abused his powers she had him as a self-serving villan who had been plotting the downfall of the city for the past 47 years, despite the fact that the society was decidedly Lawful Good by any measuring stick that the Paladins used.

Shojo was at the top of the pyramid of her delusions, the newest addition if you will. The Gods judged her for killing him, knocking only the top of the pyramid off. The structure became unstable for a moment, but there were only two possibilities. That she admit that she was wrong about everything and accept responsibility that she had killed the man she had sworn to protect in cold blood, or that she place the blame for her mistake on the Order, who had obviously manipulated her to this.

She can't accept the fact that she was wrong about everything because it would destroy her completely. She would have to face that she is not, and was never completely infallible, and that casts doubt onto everything she believes. Just as she explained Xykon still living as part of the Order's plotting, she could do nothing other than place the blame on them.

It just isn't in her to do otherwise, and no secret internal beliefs that she has never even acknowledged or let affect her actions will change that at this point. The stakes are too high for her to admit she was wrong.

[Raxtenko]

*sigh* He's saying that Miko is getting unjustified flak, not only from male fans, but from people *within* the story who have preconceived ideas about Miko.

I think Necro raises an excellent point. Redcloak assumes she's putting herself on a pedestal and goes off on her. But clearly she's heard all this before from paladin-bashers. (Meh...I've heard more indignant speeches.) She's not pure or innocent, like we'd assume. She's simply very familiar with the business of killing people. She's done it under the cowl of her cloak without batting an eye (the sorceress and her bandit father). She's never had social graces and never pretends that she does.

I think Necro is trying to say that you expect Miko to be purer than she is because women are expected to play it straight. You're looking for a mystery that isn't there. And when Miko falls short of everything she's supposed to represent, fans feel betrayed. Even though from the outset, it's been established that she's a no-nonsense and taciturn killing machine.

I know what he's saying. I was saying that my liking of Miko doesn't have anything to do with her being a lady. And I certainly don't get hissy at other people for not liking her just because she's not male either.

[NecroPaladin]

I'm gonna have to say I agree.


Nice writing there. I completely agree, except I'm a dude, and I hate miko.


She is a ****ing bitch.

I'm also a proud carrier of the Y chromosome. How much a person cares about Miko (positively or negatively) relies on how much you payed attention to her as a character. She was an overwhelmingly popular character, and as such she recieves only the most opinionated of responses. Generally speaking, though, if you view her with a negative connotation it was because either you specifically try to judge her as a character and don't just read her lines and be on with it; or you have begun to take on this viewpoint because you disagree with those who viewed her as a more pivotal part of the story. I'm not expecting anyone to change their minds, though, because first impressions are everything: If you did not actively think "I do not like this woman" from when she started to become a major character, then chances are that if you are one who is more susceptible to gender roles (again, it's unavoidable and not any sign of male (or I guess female) chauvanism. If ANYTHING has defined what your common gender roles are, it is your upbringing), you perceived the character with an only slightly good opinion instead of neutrality, but opinions naturally become more extreme because the person who has said opinions becomes more comfortable with them the longer he has them.

You know, I really need to exercise my right to be brief. It would save me some carpal tunnel problems down the line. :smallfrown:

[TinSoldier]

You're looking for a mystery or exemplar that isn't there. And when Miko falls short of everything she's supposed to represent, fans feel betrayed as do the evil and good characters alike, who expect their paladins to be spit-shine clean. Even though from the outset, it's been established that she's a no-nonsense and taciturn killing machine.Well if that's what he's saying then I disagree.

I think I would like Miko even if she was male.

Now I like strong female characters in fiction and I know strong female people in real life. That may color my like of Miko a little bit but I doubt it. There is no real mystery there.

What I've seen up until #406 is that she is a principled and dedicated paladin, if a bit taciturn as you put it. Even up through killing Shojo I could understand her thought processes even if I disagreed with her actions.

From what I've known of the character to this point, however, part of her reaction in #408 seemed out of character to me. However it seemed very in character to many other forum-goers, whether they are male or not.

There are more males than females on this board, true. There are more people who dislike Miko than there are who like Miko.

But for me, Miko's gender has no (or almost no) bearing on whether I'm giving her any slack.

[Charles Phipps]

While "Hot Japanese Warrior girl" certainly adds to the appeal.

I also love Paladins and take no prisoners characters.

And people who are unerringly difficult and religious (though that may fall under Paladin)

[LurkerInPlayground]

Doesn't the whole Miko, the fallen paladin thing remind you of the Jedi in KOTOR2? Atris, for example? The Jedi Council?

Probably isn't that surprising though...

[NecroPaladin]

First off, thanks so much for kick-starting the thread...although I really will have to sleep soon...but I do so much enjoy the debate. It's a passion.


Well, personally I disagree with your long thought out analysis. The reasons I like Miko are simple.

1.) She's a wonderful antagonist, but isn't evil.
2.) Is/was an LG character who doesn't act anything like an LG should. Wonderful writing there.
3.) She's got a nice dry wit to counterbalance the silliness of the order.
4.) Brilliant grasp of tactics, and darn good fighter.
5.) Hell, and she's NUTS. Always love the crazies. Not sure why.

And on a side note if some crazy girl attacked me, I'd smack her one back. Or run away like sissy.

This is not an argument against you, this is a reaction:

1) Well she's wonderful as an antagonist. She's a great character. But she is NOT a GOOD character. There's a difference, and people don't seem to notice it.
2) Well, the tragic part is that she thinks that she is...it's kind of sad, really.
3) Her lines can be a bit uncomfortable for that reason, though. It's not a good thing, not a bad thing.
4) That brings her into a lot of conflict with Roy, who fills the same niche. That might be one reason that everyone is taking sides: if hardly the same personality, they have roughly the same adventuring role.
5) Meh, hasn't been a really good crazy since Mariah Carey.:smallamused:


You defeated most of your own argument right at the beginning. Attraction? As you yourself pointed out, she's a stick figure.



Now unlike the first quote, THIS one is getting a real argument.

Attraction is how a charismatic character affects you. Again, you can't look at it from a strictly sexual-desire viewpoint. When I say "sexual" I am referring to the stereotypes commonly applied to genders, not the way that Miss Haley Starshine and the 10-20 basic lines and curves that make up her body really make me hot (I figure you can detect sarcasm, but for those who can't there it was). There are many ways to percieve desire and attraction; you are only mentioning the most base and simplistic of the definitions without scratching the surface. I don't mean to sound unrespectful or hostile, but your closed and quite focused defenition brings to mind, if you will, pavlov's dog: One meaning, one focus is accepted, and other meanings are dwarfed by the one that is accustomed to.

If you would like to reiterate your argument taking into account that I am not expressing any kind of sexual desire for Rich Burlew's minimalistic mindspawn.


Now I like strong female characters in fiction and I know strong female people in real life. That may color my like of Miko a little bit but I doubt it. There is no real mystery there.

Thank you for just proving my point that Gender roles are subjective per person, and why we had different reactions. Not meant to be an I-win attitude, but you just gave me the human example I needed. Again, it all depends on the initial view, as said views are much more powerful than anything that the character does later, no matter how great or small, until the character undergoes a complete reversal like we saw with Miko.

[Raxtenko]

First off, thanks so much for kick-starting the thread...although I will have to go to bed soon...but I do so much enjoy the debate. It's a passion.



This is not an argument against you, this is a reaction:

1) Well she's wonderful as an antagonist. She's a great character. But she is NOT a GOOD character. There's a difference, and people don't seem to notice it.
2) Well, the tragic part is that she thinks that she is...it's kind of sad, really.
3) Her lines can be a bit uncomfortable for that reason, though. It's not a good thing, not a bad thing.
4) That brings her into a lot of conflict with Roy, who fills the same niche. That might be one reason that everyone is taking sides: if hardly the same personality, they have roughly the same adventuring role.
5) Meh, hasn't been a really good crazy since Mariah Carey.


1.) Well please explain to me what your definition of a good character is. It's clearly not lining up with mine.
2.) But she was LG though, Paladin and all that. Even if we saw her militant side more, and honestly her Super BITCH side we only saw when she was with the Order. The few times she's off by herself, there is good to be seen.
3.) Well, I certainly see it as more of a good thing. It's a strong counterpoint to the silly that we see in the Order, which is pretty cool as well. but sometimes we need something different to make us appreciate the familiar more, if that makes sense.
4.) This is true, yes.
5.) Sure there is. Miko, for one. :smalltongue:


Also, I'm not Renegade. Sure I'm pretty darn good looking, but I like to think that I've got my own unique charm. *coff coff*

[Silverlocke980]

Just wanting to say, good sir, I've made this argument before, and it sticks; women are perfect and pure to us male forum-goers, and so we expect them to be.

Having known so very many not-perfect women, I like to believe I have a more rounded view. ;)

On the other hand, I am posting in a forum about a webcomic... what the hell do I know about women? :)

[Charles Phipps]

I'll take up your "Academic" analysis with my own.

At heart, the appeal of Miko seems to be based on the concept of a "lone crusader" archetype mixed with society's reverence for the zealot that operates within the context of what they view as acceptable bounds of society. I.e. strangely Miko is simultaneously the traditional ideal of a hero in the Galahad, Lone Ranger, Luke Skywalker figure while simultaneously being an anti-hero.

The character is immediately memorable from the other members of the Order of the Stick in that she is far more focused and driven than the others whom largely treat their mission to defeat Xykron in a manner of a game or as secondary to their pursuit of wealth or adventure. The exception to this is Roy whom nevertheless has only a personal motivation to defeat the Lich as opposed to a driving hatred for evil. Even Durkon seems slightly senile and not terribly devoted to the concept of righting wrong for its own sake.

The "take no prisoners, kick ass, take names" approach of Miko is a fundamentally dynamic character type as opposed to reactive type. Miko draws attention to herself by the fact that she is determined not to be subject to the whims of fate but carry out her activities in a forward and changing manner. This automatically seperates her from the other PCs.

Traditional fans of the paladin are drawn to Miko in no small part for the same reason that they are drawn to Batman over Superman. The character radiates intensity and driven passion that verges on the slim radius of evil on occasion but never (or rarely in the case of Miko) crosses over into evil. It is a pleasant work to have a hero who reminds us of the idea that good doesn't necessarily mean nice.

I personally imagine that the slightly psychotic Paladin archetype as a male character would be almost as popular due to the above factors.

Strangely Necropalaidn, I would argue that you are NOT necessarily wrong that gender plays a role in the attractive elements of Miko's character. Miko's anti-feminization has long lead to many female characters rising above the Geek community as icons. Samus Aaron (who never even SPEAKS in any of her games), Lara Croft, Linda Hamilton in Terminator II, Ellen Ripley, and the new Battlestar Galactica's starbuck. The capable female warrior is an icon largely developed by Tolkien with Eowyn but it has hardly worn out its allure.

As Famke Janessen put it; Comic book heroines have the duel benefit of having women want to be them and men wanting them. Much like James Bond's appeal to women and men in reverse as the key to his success.

[Elliot Kane]

NecroPaladin...

I think I'm going to disagree here, at least partially.

I think Miko gets sympathy because we can see and understand her motives. We know she is catastrophically mistaken in her belief that the OOTS are evil (Except Belkar, obviously) but from her point of view everything she has done has always been intended to be for the greater good, including the execution of Lord Shojo, who she genuinely believed had betrayed her city and her gods.

If we did not know why she was acting the way she was, it would be very easy for us to condemn her as evil, whatever her sex, but it is a lot harder for anyone who knows her reasoning to shrug it off and not sympathise with her, at least to some degree.

I suspect a lot of people are judging her for her motives only, and hoping that someone who is trying so hard to be a good person can be redeemed.

It's true that men have an inbuilt desire/impulse to protect women, but it's also true that we all - male and female alike - judge the actions of characters & people we sympathise with/like in the best possible way. I suspect that may have more to do with how people are perceiving Miko right now than the fact that she is female.

[Charles Phipps]

There's also the fact that Miko's feminity is rather rare in main characters.

There's Haley and Miko for women.

As opposed to all the other male characters. Automatically, amongst female audience that makes her one of the two characters to identify with. Except if you believe V is a woman and that's been kept obtuse.

[NecroPaladin]

I'll take up your "Academic" analysis with my own.

At heart, the appeal of Miko seems to be based on the concept of a "lone crusader" archetype mixed with society's reverence for the zealot that operates within the context of what they view as acceptable bounds of society. I.e. strangely Miko is simultaneously the traditional ideal of a hero in the Galahad, Lone Ranger, Luke Skywalker figure while simultaneously being an anti-hero.

The character is immediately memorable from the other members of the Order of the Stick in that she is far more focused and driven than the others whom largely treat their mission to defeat Xykron in a manner of a game or as secondary to their pursuit of wealth or adventure. The exception to this is Roy whom nevertheless has only a personal motivation to defeat the Lich as opposed to a driving hatred for evil. Even Durkon seems slightly senile and not terribly devoted to the concept of righting wrong for its own sake.

The "take no prisoners, kick ass, take names" approach of Miko is a fundamentally dynamic character type as opposed to reactive type. Miko draws attention to herself by the fact that she is determined not to be subject to the whims of fate but carry out her activities in a forward and changing manner. This automatically seperates her from the other PCs.

Traditional fans of the paladin are drawn to Miko in no small part for the same reason that they are drawn to Batman over Superman. The character radiates intensity and driven passion that verges on the slim radius of evil on occasion but never (or rarely in the case of Miko) crosses over into evil. It is a pleasant work to have a hero who reminds us of the idea that good doesn't necessarily mean nice.

I personally imagine that the slightly psychotic Paladin archetype as a male character would be almost as popular due to the above factors.

Strangely Necropalaidn, I would argue that you are NOT necessarily wrong that gender plays a role in the attractive elements of Miko's character. Miko's anti-feminization has long lead to many female characters rising above the Geek community as icons. Samus Aaron (who never even SPEAKS in any of her games), Lara Croft, Linda Hamilton in Terminator II, Ellen Ripley, and the new Battlestar Galactica's starbuck. The capable female warrior is an icon largely developed by Tolkien with Eowyn but it has hardly worn out its allure.

As Famke Janessen put it; Comic book heroines have the duel benefit of having women want to be them and men wanting them. Much like James Bond's appeal to women and men in reverse as the key to his success.

I completely agree with your points, as this is not contrary to what I think but an entirely different argument. Good show, plenty fun, and I'm off to bed.

PS. I think it's Samus Aaran, but I'm not sure.

[Zifna]

You defeated most of your own argument right at the beginning. Attraction? As you yourself pointed out, she's a stick figure.

Indeed, he did not. Symbols call on deep seated imagery within your psyche, something media members rely on. We recognize this :) as a human face... we fill in everything that's not there that makes it not a human face.

And so, someone thinking of Miko will see the stick figure but can easily subconsciously associate her with his other more dimensional imagery of attractive women.

[Wyborn]

I don't like her exactly because he's a jack-ass: not because she's mean-spirited and cruel, which Belkar also is, but because, you know, she's not written to have many redeeming qualities. Belkar is hilarious. Miko isn't. She's hilarious when the situation is hilarious, while the look on Belkar's face in panel 2 of 408 cracks me up every time I look at it. Hold on, let me do that now.

Hahahaha. Woo.

Anyway. I'd dislike her the same if she was a dude: hell, I didn't like her when she was in the assassin role, because she took up too much time with too many unfunny strips. That she's a jerk with no redeeming qualities has only something to do with it: a bigger factor there, I think, might be that she doesn't realize she has these qualities (Belkar does) and she has no inherent comedic valueo t make up for it (again, Belkar does).

Couldn't it just be that the people who dislike Miko dislike her because she's never funny?

[LurkerInPlayground]

I know what he's saying. I was saying that my liking of Miko doesn't have anything to do with her being a lady. And I certainly don't get hissy at other people for not liking her just because she's not male either.

Really? Let's pull up your points then.

1) She's driving a very fine line. She kills a sorceress and her father remorselessly and doesn't seem to have gotten any better in the intervening time. "Oh well... you can't make justice without breaking a few eggs." While we're at it, Miko skips due process and kill Shojo. Doesn't matter if he's a criminal, he doesn't deserve death because it happens to be convenient for Miko.
2) Lawful Good? She acted as she always has. She's utterly incapable of seeing reason just because a goblin happens to be spouting it. She doesn't care that Redcloak is more than "a souless nihilist." If he's evil, he must be smited, why burden yourself with a rigorous understanding of ethics when it's so much easier to pass judgement on them and kill them? She does this to OotS all the time and she does it outside her company with them. She follows the letter of the law to kill things, and she almost does this for its own sake. (Even now she's trying to settle the score with Belkar.)
3) There we are. Wit. From where I stand, she's completely and utterly humorless. Roy is aware that he's a straight-man to all of the shenanigans. Miko is oblivious that she's filling the same role in terms of humor. I don't ever recall her intentionally making a joke or making light of a situation. You're saying that she's being witty when she rarely if ever, tries to actually be witty. Roy will make a sarcastic crack now and then. Miko just sits there like a clam.
4) Agreed.
5) Sure, she's a merciless and psychotic killer. She's as liable to slit your throat as have a rational conversation. I too like taking vipers and hugging themselves to me. But answer me this? Why do women like tough biker punks? Does that have anything to do with you liking crazy and psychotic females?

It's one thing to like Miko for what she is, but I think you're wanting to cut her too much slack. She's been driving at the ditch for a long time. She's made mistakes, you're saying she hasn't. I see Miko as being devoid of humor and generally liable to kill people because it pleases her. You're willing to forgive this as long as she's female. Am I wrong?

[Raxtenko]

Really? Let's pull up your points then.

1) She's driving a very fine line. She kills a sorceress and her father remorselessly and doesn't seem to have gotten any better in the intervening time. "Oh well... you can't make justice without breaking a few eggs." While we're at it, Miko skips due process and kill Shojo. Doesn't matter if he's a criminal, he doesn't deserve death because it happens to be convenient for Miko.
2) Lawful Good? She acted as she always has. She's utterly incapable of seeing reason just because a goblin happens to be spouting it. She doesn't care that Redcloak is more than "a souless nihilist." If he's evil, he must be smited, why burden yourself with a rigorous understanding of ethics when it's so much easier to pass judgement on them and kill them? She does this to OotS all the time and she does it outside her company with them. She follows the letter of the law to kill things, and she almost does this for its own sake.
3) There we are. Wit. From where I stand, she's completely and utterly humorless. Roy is aware that he's a straight-man to all of the shenanigans. Miko is oblivious that she's filling the same role in terms of humor. I don't ever recall her intentionally making a joke or making light of a situation. You're saying that she's being witty when she rarely if ever, tries to actually be witty. Roy will make a sarcastic crack now and then. Miko just sits there like a clam.
4) Agreed.
5) Sure, she's a merciless and psychotic killer. She's as liable to slit your throat as have a rational conversation. I too like taking vipers and hugging themselves to me. But answer me this? Why do women like tough biker punks? Does that have anything to do with you liking crazy and psychotic females?

It's one thing to like Miko for what she is, but I think you're wanting to cut her too much slack.

No. You're missing my point. Necro's basic premise is that we basically cut her slack because she's a lady. I do anything of that nature just because she's a member of the fairer sex. I like her for the reasons that I put out there, and what she brings to the strip and nothing more.

[LurkerInPlayground]

No. You're missing my point. Necro's basic premise is that we basically cut her slack because she's a lady. I do anything of that nature just because she's a member of the fairer sex. I like her for the reasons that I put out there, and what she brings to the strip and nothing more.

Really? go up and re-read. I'm saying that you like Miko because she is a member of the fairer sex. You don't like Miko for what she is, you like her for what you idealize. In this case, you're cutting her too much slack for being female instead of cutting her too little for it.

You say that Miko hasn't done anything wrong. What's more, you're saying that she's witty and that it's okay if she's crazy as long as she's a "crazy chick." And I suspect you call her witty when, in reality, she's almost completely devoid of a sense of humor.

[Wyborn]

People don't say Miko is witty. You're making stuff up. I refuse to believe anyone actually said that.

[Raxtenko]

Really? go up and re-read. I'm saying that you like Miko because she is a member of the fairer sex. You don't like Miko for what she is, you like her for what you idealize. In this case, you're cutting her too much slack for being female instead of cutting her too little for it.

You say that Miko hasn't done anything wrong. What's more, you're saying that she's witty and that it's okay if she's crazy as long as she's a "crazy chick." And I suspect you call her witty when, in reality, she's almost completely devoid of a sense of humor.

Just stop. I don't mention anywhere in my reasoning what you're putting in my mouth.

I never said she didn't do anything wrong for another thing.

And she is pretty witty she just doesn't know it. Her cloistered lifestyle has left her without a sense of humour.

And lastly all I like her because she's nuts. And I like crazies. Like I said up there way in my first post. I don't like her because she's a crazy woman. I like her because she's crazy. Gender has nothing to do with that.

[Demented]

Hey, if you say "Miko is witty", and he says "Miko is witty", he can say that people say Miko is witty. It makes perfect sense to me!

[Wyborn]

Hey, if you say "Miko is witty", and he says "Miko is witty", he can say that people say Miko is witty. It makes perfect sense to me!

If it were possible to roll for Initiative over the internet, we would be doing that right now.

Hahaha, kidding, kidding... but only just.

And yes, it appears that I am corrected: someone HAS said Miko is witty, just that she's not aware of it.

In that case, Miko isn't witty: wit implies that you know how to make jokes and at least attempt to be funny, or preferably succeed. Miko is only funny as a consequence of the situation: in fact, usually, it's only the situation that is funny, Miko just has the good luck to be standing around at the time.

Miko herself isn't witty, and worse yet she isn't funny (like V, who is funny without being witty), and that just means she has no real redeeming qualities at all as far as these comics go.

[Raxtenko]

It's all semantics really. Her conclusion that Windstriker needed to lay off Heavely Oats horse feed got me smiling.

And really if she has no redeeming qualities, then how do you account for her fanclub?

[Ashildr_the_Bard]

I hardly know where to begin.

First, let me say that I'm a female person and I like Miko and think that her intrinsic nature is good. I do think she's confused about how to act on it though. Alignment (IMHO) is more about intention than action. Miko's intention is clearly to protect the public good, but her means of doing so is to rigidly uphold the letter of the law. She sees the world in black and white, the lawful and the unlawful with no middle ground (which I believe comes from her limited life experiences having grown up in a monastery and gone immediately into service as a paladin, which she could not have done without being Lawful Good as we all know). Shojo clearly violated many of the laws of the land and allowed dangerous criminals (the OOTS, because they were guilty of what they were charged with) go free. Therefor, in Miko's perspective, he presented a clear and present danger to Azure City. By killing him, she believed she was protecting the public good, which is a Lawful Good trait. While she probably could have found a better way to do it, remember that she had known Shojo for a long time and she probably felt personally betrayed as well. With Miko's tendency towards extremism (which comes from seeing the world completely in black and white), this sense of personal betrayal was probably enough to tip the scales in favor of killing him, a factor that would have added towards her fall. Mostly though, she fell from paladinhood because in trying to protect the public good, she committed and evil act, not because her intentions were evil. If you notice, everyone she's killed so far (including the bandits) were behaving unlawfully at the time. The bandits were actually openly hostile, and attacked her first, which justifies killing them. OOTS 189 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) This makes her no more evil or taciturn in killing than most of the OOTS. In the last few strips, I think we're seeing the worst of Miko, but put yourself in her shoes. Your feudal lord who you've trusted implicitly and risked your life for has just betrayed you and the other paladins (from Miko's point of view), and when you try to do something about it, you do the wrong thing for the right reason and lose the favor of your gods and your paladinhood, the thing you use to define your personality. Wouldn't you be just a bit shocked and irrational at this point?

Now...

*puts on the anthropologist hat*

As for the whole gender-bias argument, I think it smacks just a little of pedestrian pop-psychology.


People naturally react better to characters of the opposite gender, because they obviously do not know said gender as well as their own and thus can add Romanticized traits where the opposite of said trait is not immediately evident.

People naturally gravitate towards real members of the opposite sex as well as fictional ones, but it's not because we don't know them and can therefor romanticize them. It's because we all naturally have a tendency to pay more attention to the opposite sex. Two reasons: sex, being the obvious first one, and secondly because members of the opposite sex don't present as much social competition. Human beings are primates and as such males and females don't usually compete for the same social ranks. Therefor it's easier to be around a member of the opposite sex as the majority of the time you can relax because they're not going to challenge your social position. Both of these behaviors are so deeply ingrained that it's hard for us not to apply them to fictional humans as well as real ones. The specific traits involved in the "romanticization" or stereotype of a gender varies widely by culture, and when you have a population as widespread as the one on these boards, I don't think it's wise or even remotely supportable to generalize about it. Unless you happen to have done a comprehensive study of the correlation between ethnicity, nationality, gender, and age of people who like or dislike Miko and how they view her specifically.

On the whole, your analysis is decent in that it's well argued and thoughtful, but I can tell you haven't done a whole lot of scientific-grade reading on gender, evolutionary psychology, and human behavior.

[NecroPaladin]

And really if she has no redeeming qualities, then how do you account for her fanclub?

I seem to recall a very, very big fanclub once. It was all the fans of this nebbish little schizo german guy, but they liked him because they agreed with his ideology and cuz he was a great speaker. Weird thing was, their symbol wasn't him, it was this little diagonal-cross thing. Dammit, if only for the life of me I could remember who that guy WAS!

I think I was a little too cruel there. But long story short, everyone has fans, even the very, very evil. And again, the tragic part here is that although Miko doesn't have many redeeming qualities, she thinks that she does.

PS. This thread has digressed further and further from the original point, though, and I like hearing response to my theory as opposed to bickering. Yup, you too Lurker.

[Raxtenko]

Well maybe you don't think she has any redeeming qualities. BUt I and many of the other club members certainly do.

[Wyborn]

It's all semantics really. Her conclusion that Windstriker needed to lay off Heavely Oats horse feed got me smiling.

It's not semantics, it's a matter of the actual definitions of the words. Miko wasn't being witty there, she was being serious - literally saying that Windstriker had gotten too heavy to be falling on top of her and so on. Nevermind the fact that he's a horse and will as such weigh as much as a horse. Regardless, not witty.


And really if she has no redeeming qualities, then how do you account for her fanclub?

...I thought that's what this topic did, analyzing why people do o don't like her. Why do I think people like Miko so damn much they form a club? Well, there are probably a bunch of different reasons, but lemme try to list a few I see as possibilities.

1. People identify with her simply because she's so disliked by eveyrone else, including the cast. I mean, it's so easy to root for the girl/guy who's so universally despised, right? I don't get this reasoning, but again, she's not funny. The would simply be people liking her to be disagreeable.

2. People might also like her because she breeds conflict that is in itself amusing even if she is not. However, I don't think these people are Miko's fans - they're the ones who dislike her character but like her as a character because she's a useful tool for driving the plot and brings out the comedic best in some other character (like Roy and Belkar).

3. Some people might like her because, in some emo-y way (no offense to actual emos), they identify with the fact that she's such an outsider and is ostracized, even within her own order comprised of people, all of whom have a stick in their asses as a class feature.

I can't think of many more right now, but I think it has to do with idntifying with her. Which means you must not be funny either.

Hahaha, only kidding, only kidding.

Edit: NecroPaladin, apologies for assisting in the jacking of your thread, I'll stop now.

[Demented]

That's the most hilarious invocation of Godwin's law I've seen yet.
You get a cookie.
It's old and stale, but it's got extra chocolate chips. =D


Nobody else gets cookies.
Wyborn gets a tackle hug, though.
Roll for initiative.

[Raxtenko]

It's not semantics, it's a matter of the actual definitions of the words. Miko wasn't being witty there, she was being serious - literally saying that Windstriker had gotten too heavy to be falling on top of her and so on. Nevermind the fact that he's a horse and will as such weigh as much as a horse. Regardless, not witty.

No, the way I see it much different you see. The situation put Windstriker on top of her. Somewhat humourous that. She coudl've just said for him to get off of her, or simply that he was getting heavy.

But she alluded to certain circumstances, which she won't mention for reasons unknown. Ego maybe. Who knows. And of course she was being serious, she wasn't attempting to be funny at all. Uptight upbringing.

But the words she used, and they way she said it, belies a some kind of wit that's hidden somewhere. The stick in her rear might have something to do with it.

And your'e wrong, I don't like her beause I identify with her, far from it. I actually seriously do like her for what she is, and what she brings.

[Ashdate]

I have been avoiding saying this, but to hell with subtlety. I think that the reason we're getting a whole lot of backlash for Miko going evil is because she has breasts...

... and then basically 'people subconsciously fill in blanks.'

I don't think you're idea is wrong; in fact, some VERY successful characters (i.e. Harry Potter) are based on this idea. It's an extremely common technique in Japanese comic books as well; What better way to get a fan's support then by having a fan unconsciously 'personalise' the character?

I do want to say a few things however. First, I think you're playing up the gender roll thing too much. I think the real issue isn't that Miko is a woman, but just that she gained enough popularity that fans started doing the whole "idealistic template-personality" out of percieved entitlement then anything.

People get favorite charactes. They hate it when those favorite characters do something that they don't like. It's part of the process of being a fan. Saying 'they're doing this because she has boobs' I think is shooting the arrow at the wrong tree; I'm sure they like the idea of a hot asian paladin, but what if Haley started, I dunno, eating kittens? There'd be some amount of backlash to that, because no matter if The Giant feels that Haley devouring a striped tabby is something she'd do, some fan out there thinks The Giant is wrong. That's an extreme example, but replace kittens with anything you can think of. I mean, look at the HUGE backlash Scott Kurtz recieved for the voice actor they got to portray Skull the troll in the animated PVP series; it really doens't matter what the creator things to some fans, because they just think "dammit, they're my characters too. Why wasn't I consulted?"

Second (this one is shorter) I seriously don't know what the percentage of forum users are compared to readers of the comic, but I'm pretty sure that those 12,000 user registered here on the boards don't make up half of The Giant's viewership. In fact, it likely makes up a 1/5th of the readership at best. The point I'm trying to make here is that you're recieving these complaints about Miko through a filter, that filter being the 10,000 some who are a big enough fan of the comic to register and post comics here. I.E. THE fans. The ones who sometimes feel that 'entitlement' thing (and this is even being generous that those 10,000 users are all actually active). Their griping is really very minor in the grand scheme of things.

Also: Your test is misleading; it's like handing a package to a stranger, telling them it's a bomb, and seeing if they'll react negatively. You're setting up expectations by purposefully manipulating the data. You've got a perfectly suitable control there; Why not get strangers who aren't fans to read the comic as anyone else would and let them decide in the end what to think?

And I think that's kind of my hidden third point. There's nothing inheirantly WRONG with cutting someone some slack based on gender/race/social status. Human beings do it all the time. I can totally see how it comes off as some sort of 'social affirmative action' and hey, if you disagree with it that's cool. But you know what? I think most guys would want to extend a little extra curtiousy to the 'hot' member of the opposite gender. It's biological!

- Eddie

[NecroPaladin]

To Ms. Bard; Of course I don't do a lot of psychology. I enjoy psychology, though, because it allows me to debate, and debate is second only to drawing on my list of things that really make me feel alive. I mentioned earlier that I intend to be a visual artist, not a psychologist; not to mention I'm probably a whole lot younger than any of you. As in, young-enough-that-I-don't-say-my-age-because-then-even-though-I-am-in-the-top-97-percent-of-the-nation-on-IQ-no-one-takes-me-seriously young. But I'm just backing myself into Evard's Pity Corner there. I am not saying that the only reason that Miko is liked is because she is female: far from it. I mean, and I was afraid of sounding like a pig; that just would have made me look grotesque! Instead, I am limiting my argument to that gender politics may be a deciding factor in the popularity of her character among males. Naturally, you are exempt. I am in no way trying to imply that this is the only factor; just that it plays a part. I'm not sure if some of the people who supported my argument get it, but I don't mean to say that she's not popular because she's a brilliant character, a tragic heroine, and...*sigh*...a hot Japanese Samauri Babe. Seriously. It'd be like saying that people only liked "The Incredible Hulk" because he was green.

Again, I don't have a lot of psychology experience, but these are the things that do stand out to me when I read some of the defenses to admiring here character. It also probably helps that pretty much ALL of my friends, or at least the ones I talk to daily, are feminist girls (I may not seem it when I argue, but in RL the closest stereotype I fit into is the 'effeminate male friend;), so they do shape my rather extreme perspective. Thanks for complimenting me on arguing, though. That's what I like to hear. Not that I necessarily had impeccable views, but that I argued them well.

Addition: Wow. The whole, "I think this contributes, not that it's the dominant reason" thing was perfectly timed for Ashdate. Go me.



Also: Your test is misleading; it's like handing a package to a stranger, telling them it's a bomb, and seeing if they'll react negatively. You're setting up expectations by purposefully manipulating the data. You've got a perfectly suitable control there; Why not get strangers who aren't fans to read the comic as anyone else would and let them decide in the end what to think?

You just summed up to me the entire method by which one successfully debates. And while yes, this is quite biased in my direction, its point was for reaction less than for it to be carried out. Since that's apparently how people percieve me, I just want it known now that I consider myself more debatist than philosopher.


But you know what? I think most guys would want to extend a little extra curtiousy to the 'hot' member of the opposite gender. It's biological!

- Eddie

So, let me get this straight. The first thing that extends on a man when he is sexually aroused is his CURIOSITY? :)

[Charles Phipps]

I think I was a little too cruel there. But long story short, everyone has fans, even the very, very evil. And again, the tragic part here is that although Miko doesn't have many redeeming qualities, she thinks that she does.[/COLOR]

Miko's redeeming qualities seem to be her piety to the gods, her love for her fellow Saphire Guard, her reverence for her city, her love for her horse, and also her desire to be the best Paladin she can be.

Also her strong will.

[Demented]

So, let me get this straight. The first thing that extends on a man when he is sexually aroused is his CURIOSITY? :)

You utterly misread that typo. He meant "courtesy", not "curiosity". =P

[NecroPaladin]

You utterly misread that typo. He meant "courtesy", not "curiosity". =P

But Courtesty makes just as little sense! *whines*

And also, Godwin's Law FTW. Remember, it's useful in every situation. The biggest compliment I've ever gotten in my real life debates is "you present yourself exactly like Adolf Hitler." It seems really, really bad at first, but then consider that he was one of the great inflammatory speakers of the past century, beginning speeches with a lull and ending in a furor. I probably come across as a weaker debatist whilst typing because you can neither see my gestures nor here my voice.

PSSSSHAW! Dude...is this...an authentic period cookie? I taste cyanide...

[Mnemosyne]

I think that a lot of the flak that Miko gets comes specifically from the fact that she is a woman who is not only in a position of authority but who refuses to back down in any situation. That kind of woman is simply not celebrated in our society (qv Margaret Thatcher, Martha Stewart, Hillary Clinton). To behave in such a manner when you have male genitalia is to be a 'tough guy'. On a woman, it's just a b*tch.

That's not to say Miko doesn't deserve a great deal of scorn - she's not a particularly likeable person, her value to the story aside. I just think a lot of it comes from what's between her legs; or rather, what isn't.

Incidentally, just gonna request that you cut it out with the red font. It's crazy eye-hurty.

[Wyborn]

Okay I guess the whole worrying about jacking the topic thing is out the window by this point.

Raxtenko, if it is true that you like Miko because of what she brings to the table, wouldn't that make you one of the people who likes her for driving the plot rather than as a character?

[NecroPaladin]

I think that a lot of the flak that Miko gets comes specifically from the fact that she is a woman who is not only in a position of authority but who refuses to back down in any situation. That kind of woman is simply not celebrated in our society (qv Margaret Thatcher, Martha Stewart, Hillary Clinton). To behave in such a manner when you have male genitalia is to be a 'tough guy'. On a woman, it's just a b*tch.

That's not to say Miko doesn't deserve a great deal of scorn - she's not a particularly likeable person, her value to the story aside. I just think a lot of it comes from what's between her legs; or rather, what isn't.

Incidentally, just gonna request that you cut it out with the red font. It's crazy eye-hurty.

Red font cut, at least for the sake of your eyes. I touched on this issue earlier-that there is a natural discomfort around dominating women, or more importantly, one of the rare female characters in comics whose priorities do not include sex. Kudo points to Miko for avoiding THAT storyline pitfall.

On a side note, I actually do really dislike Hillary Clinton, but it's less so because of her personality than the fact that she actually believes the little douchebags who commit school shootings and then go "Video Games made me do it!" and campaigns accordingly. And-get this-I'm a radical liberal.

[Raxtenko]

She drives the plot, or helps to drive it yes. But she's committed to her cause, driven, stubborn, and not one to give up. These are all admirable qualities. I do like these yes, but my other five reasons are why I'm her fan, and will continue to be one, through thick and thin.

[Wyborn]

She drives the plot, or helps to drive it yes. But she's committed to her cause, driven, stubborn, and not one to give up. These are all admirable qualities. I do like these yes, but my other five reasons are why I'm her fan, and will continue to be one, through thick and thin.

So you think being a fanatic, refusing to listen to reason, thinking that the gods made an error in judgment when they made her Fall, and assuming that trying to kill the Order of the Stick is still a good idea - these, these are redeeming qualities? Please. You're funnier than she is.

And am I the only one in this whole damn topic who doesn't see characters in books or comics or videogames or any form of media in terms of their gender except when their gender plays a critical role in the definition of their character? I mean, I like strong women, but only because they're strong people, and only assuming they aren't complete bastards about it.

[Raxtenko]

No. And can you please tone down the borderline hostility.

To be more clear, she's commited to her cause, that of protecting the Gates, and the security of Azure City.

She's driven. When Miko wants something she gets it. No matter what.

She's Stubborn. She doesn't give up. No matter how bleak the odds are. Stuck in a Force Cage? Heck No problem.

And FYI, she didn' think the Gods were in error, she blamed Roy for tricking her. Totally different thing.

[Mnemosyne]

Gender plays a critical role in the definition of any character, simply because gender is a social construct that has relevance to the analysis of any story. Male, female, transgendered, non-identifying, whatever you happen to be it's a huge part of who you are as a person and the way the world treats you.

[NecroPaladin]

Gender plays a critical role in the definition of any character, simply because gender is a social construct that has relevance to the analysis of any story. Male, female, transgendered, non-identifying, whatever you happen to be it's a huge part of who you are as a person and the way the world treats you.

Unfortunately, the "way the world treats you" is rarely "better." And besides, humans all taste the sa- I mean, they all...think. the same. yes.


No. And can you please tone down the borderline hostility.

And yeah, honestly? This is a warzone. It's like if you took the Napoleonic-era Balkan Peninsula and converted it into a text file.

[Raxtenko]

And yeah, honestly? This is a warzone. It's like if you took the Napoleonic-era Balkan Peninsula and converted it into a text file.

This is a messageboard. We're all allowed to disagree. But we're expected to show some manners to ech other.

[Wyborn]

No. And can you please tone down the borderline hostility.

That wasn't a question. Also, NEVAS!


To be more clear, she's commited to her cause, that of protecting the Gates, and the security of Azure City.

Gate. Singular. And no, she apparently doesn't care about protecting the Gates so much as she does administering a good chopping - Shojo and Roy are talking about going and protecting the gates when she and Hinjo happen to hear them, she knows that's what Shojo is doing, and she does not hesitate to cut him in half.


She's driven. When Miko wants something she gets it. No matter what.

That's not a positive aspect, because it includes her acts of killing people, or denying any idea that the Order of the Stick might not be evil, and her going against the will of the gods in order to exact a vengeance that she thinks is justified.


She's Stubborn. She doesn't give up. No matter how bleak the odds are. Stuck in a Force Cage? Heck No problem.

Detect Evil doesn't say they're Evil? Heck, no problem there either! Again, not a redeeming aspect.


And FYI, she didn' think the Gods were in error, she blamed Roy for tricking her. Totally different thing.

Right, I'm going to quote her for you.

"If I bring you to justice, the gods will see that I have always been their servant."

Right, this implies that they failed to see how she was serving them (in her mind), hence the gods were in error instead of her. You don't get more delusional than a person, a Paladin, who thinks that the gods might be wrong when they're making a moral judgment call.

Again, I don't see any redeeming qualities here, especially not any which would redeem her in a fantasy webcomic whose main strength, in terms of character development, lies in the ability of the character to be funny.

[Raxtenko]

First of all everyone's personality traits can be good or bad. Her traits have done her good and wrong. But just because she's done bad with them, does not negate any good or positive aspect that can come from them. You're merely looking at all the bad, and not weighing the good.



ANd I'm going to quote her for you: "YOU! Of course it's all YOUR fault!!" Said right to Roy's face.

[berrew]

<snip>
On a side note, I actually do really dislike Hillary Clinton, but it's less so because of her personality than the fact that she actually believes the little douchebags who commit school shootings and then go "Video Games made me do it!" and campaigns accordingly. And-get this-I'm a radical liberal.
Interesting... You like MM because:

She's commited to her cause, that of protecting the Gates, and the security of Azure City.
She's driven. When Miko wants something she gets it. No matter what.
She's Stubborn. She doesn't give up. No matter how bleak the odds are. Stuck in a Force Cage? Heck No problem.And yet, these are Hillary Clinton's exact traits. Yet, you dislike Ms. Clinton because she believes in something that you feel is patently untrue, just as does Miko (only about a whole *slew* of things)? I don't follow you.

[Wyborn]

Well...yes. Yes, she definitely said that, but I'm...I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with it. Is it an example of her stubbornness, or what?

And I'm not being a jack-ass here: I honestly invite you to bring up when any of the qualities you mentioned about her could be construed as a good thing. Her stubbornness, her inability to let go of anything, anything at all, when have any of these things been presented, from a narrative standpoint, as redeeming qualities?

Edit: Berrew, you're mixing up two different people.

[Raxtenko]

I gave you an example already. she was stuck in a Force Cage. A lot of people woulld've given up right there. But Miko puzzled a way out and escaped successfully. Granted Xykon intedned for her to, but she doesn't know that.

After the MitD knocked her out of the tower. She chose to leave the moment the two ere fit to travel. If she is as truely crazy and fanatical as some claim her to be, then she would've stayed to smite the evil monster in the dark. However, one of her duties is to help protect Azure City. So she ran away to do just that.

As an aside she's a good person as well, now that I think about it. Most of the time we see her she's with the Order, who piss her off to no end.

However, when the inn was burning to the ground, she went back inside to save the innocent lives inside.

When she arrived at the Sapphire Guard tower, one of the guards on duty told her about their ration situation. Miko immediately offered what aid she could, and what she was allowed to render, given the constraints of her mission.

[berrew]

ANd I'm going to quote her for you: "YOU! Of course it's all YOUR fault!!" Said right to Roy's face.Uhhh... *What's* all Roy's fault, BTW? There is no logical connective here that is a good default. It could be, "The danger to Azure city", or "You made me kill my leader (illogical but typically Miko)" or "You have messed up my head becasue I still am attracted to you", or "You tricked the Gods into taking away my abilities", or any of a slew of other things - but IMO its an unconscious recognition that her current state is due to her fixation on OoTS.

Wyborn already quoted the important part of her thought process for you. She thinks that being a loyal servant is what Paladinhood is all about, and she's just, plain wrong. The God's know that she's a servant, she's just not a good one.

[Raxtenko]

No. Read teh next panel there. The one about Roy tricking her into slaying her own lord.

[NecroPaladin]

Interesting... You like MM because:
And yet, these are Hillary Clinton's exact traits. Yet, you dislike Ms. Clinton because she believes in something that you feel is patently untrue, just as does Miko (only about a whole *slew* of things)? I don't follow you.

Wait...at what point did that second quote cease to exist being someone else's and become mine, apparently?

[Mnemosyne]

In all honesty, this is not the proper forum for political discussion. I only brought up Senator Clinton as an example of a woman with a strong personality and an authority role who gets a lot of flak in the media.

[Charles Phipps]

BTW, NecroPaladin.

I'd reaallyyyy quickly delete all those RL references. I mentioned Middle Ages religion once and they slapped a warning on me.

[berrew]

Wait...at what point did that second quote cease to exist being someone else's and become mine, apparently?Because it's 3:30AM and I should be in bed! Sorry :).

[NecroPaladin]

BTW, NecroPaladin.

I'd reaallyyyy quickly delete all those RL references. I mentioned Middle Ages religion once and they slapped a warning on me.

Meh, I pride myself on saying what I want. My record for being silenced in one month in City of Villains is in the double-digits, I believe.

[Raxtenko]

Well, except here, like pretty much every other forum, they'll ban you for repeat offenses.

[NecroPaladin]

Well, except here, like pretty much every other forum, they'll ban you for repeat offenses.

Freedom of expression: the greatest offense of all.

[Renegade Paladin]

Now unlike the first quote, THIS one is getting a real argument.

Attraction is how a charismatic character affects you. Again, you can't look at it from a strictly sexual-desire viewpoint. When I say "sexual" I am referring to the stereotypes commonly applied to genders, not the way that Miss Haley Starshine and the 10-20 basic lines and curves that make up her body really make me hot (I figure you can detect sarcasm, but for those who can't there it was). There are many ways to percieve desire and attraction; you are only mentioning the most base and simplistic of the definitions without scratching the surface. I don't mean to sound unrespectful or hostile, but your closed and quite focused defenition brings to mind, if you will, pavlov's dog: One meaning, one focus is accepted, and other meanings are dwarfed by the one that is accustomed to.

If you would like to reiterate your argument taking into account that I am not expressing any kind of sexual desire for Rich Burlew's minimalistic mindspawn.
You referred to this as male attraction to Miko as a female, which naturally usually means at least subconscious physical attraction. I maintain that Miko is a sympathetic character not because she's female, but due to her heroic drive and, yes, the tragedy in her story. She's a compelling character, more so I daresay than some of the members of the Order, and that has nothing to do with the fact that she's a hot kung-fu chick. :smallamused:

Meh, I pride myself on saying what I want. My record for being silenced in one month in City of Villains is in the double-digits, I believe.
The censorship police are very persistent here. The rules are juvenile, and written with governing juveniles in mind. The emphasis is on burying tensions to make sure people resent each other silently as much as possible rather than, I dunno, ever saying anything productive.

[NecroPaladin]

You referred to this as male attraction to Miko as a female, which naturally usually means at least subconscious physical attraction. I maintain that Miko is a sympathetic character not because she's female, but due to her heroic drive and, yes, the tragedy in her story. She's a compelling character, more so I daresay than some of the members of the Order, and that has nothing to do with the fact that she's a hot kung-fu chick. :smallamused:

Well duh. The kung-fu chick is the oldest cliche in the book next to the naive chick, and Miko is hardly a cliche. Besides, Kung Fu is technically a form of meditation...

EDIT: Okay. I NEED to sleep. G'night other-dude-with-Paladin-in-his-name.

[Demented]

Those posts were simply comparing personalities.

Anyhow, there's a big difference between a "b*tch" and a "tough guy". The former would, in male form, be called an "a**hole". The latter would, in female form, be called a... well... um... Help me out here, guys. What's the word for a woman that goes around kicking a**, spouts bad puns and cheesey one-liners, and seduces at least one temporary love interest per show?

[Charles Phipps]

Tough Girl.

[Demented]

Perfect.

"Bond. Jane Bond."

[Carmichael]

Consider this --

If Miko, performing all the same actions, were a katana-wielding, sunglasses-and-trenchcoat-wielding badass Masterless-Man archetype-cliche spouting witty one-liners as he slices and dices any dimwit who gets in his way, he'd be some kind of demi-god hero in the minds of some readers. You know the type I talking about: the infallible badass anti-hero who justifies killing in for a greater pursuit. We sympathize with this character perhaps because he transcends the so-called "petty" morals we have established, or because he looks "cool", but it's not because we straight-up think his actions praiseworthy. Drizzt. Elric. A hundred tropes in fantasy.

The problem is, the badass katana-waving anti-hero is suddenly transformed twofold in the comic into A) an uptight, rigid woman and B) an uptight, rigid paladin.

Miko is not very removed from the worn cliche that so many players probably trot out at the table: the loner, the irrepressible bad boy, the wanderer, the noble outlaw living by his own code who forms the center of his own morality. (We might say Miko has a personal set of values that simply don't coincide with D&D good and evil.) The problem is with Miko, she doesn't match that cliche, and that's deliberate. Miko doesn't wear black. She doesn't remain a mystery. She doesn't spout sardonic but inane one-liners. Most of all, she, her skills, and her values are presented as questionable but not outright unsympathetic. These things, I don't doubt, are deliberate. I'm guessing Rich doesn't feel the need to introduce the infallible badass antihero, a type that is both worn out and simply not complex.

When I think about it, Miko is sort of like Drizzt made hugely fallible, vulnerable, and even tragic. Unlike Xykon or Nale -- who, let's face it, are pretty much unsympathetic jerkholes -- she's understandable because she's got understandable motivations: the want to make oneself useful, the want to believe in something, and (like many readers, it seems) the want to divide things into categories of "good" and "bad", of "right" and "wrong".

I admire how Rich plays with these types throughout the comic, altering them subtly from what we perceive them to be. The mysterious, cloaked, stranger who wields dual blades (always a sign of badass anti-heroism in fantasy) is revealed to be a Lawful Good woman. The point of race is implicitly brought up with Roy -- that the Lawful Good, steadfast leader and straight man is (although it matters more in our world than in the comic) black. The coin-counting rogue is not a dashing swashbuckler or a creeping assassin, but a mature, second-in-command woman. The senile, incompetent authority figure made into an actually cunning, well-intentioned, but still questionable leader.

I say bravo to Rich for the Miko the female fallen paladin antagonist, with all her mean warts and wrongly directed energy.

[Archangel62]

Oh yes, Miko is a fascinating character and the fact that many of us debate so heavily is a sign of his skill as a writer. I mean I personally would hate to have a Belkar in my games but Belkar as a character is quite amusing.

[Elliot Kane]

Those posts were simply comparing personalities.

Anyhow, there's a big difference between a "b*tch" and a "tough guy". The former would, in male form, be called an "a**hole". The latter would, in female form, be called a... well... um... Help me out here, guys. What's the word for a woman that goes around kicking a**, spouts bad puns and cheesey one-liners, and seduces at least one temporary love interest per show?

Faith :smallbiggrin:

(From BtVS)

***


Oh yes, Miko is a fascinating character and the fact that many of us debate so heavily is a sign of his skill as a writer.

Agreed.


I mean I personally would hate to have a Belkar in my games but Belkar as a character is quite amusing.

I've had plenty of Belkars in my games. The other players usually kill them before too long.

[chibibar]

I did not read the other post after the original post, but I gotta say I have to agree here.

The human mind usually fill in gaps or tries to make sense when things are presented to it. Even as a stick figure, a piece of abstract art, or a painting (2D) these can and invoke some feelings and passion about something. The human mind subconciously fill in the gaps and does Romantacize things according to our own view what it would be like.

I know that sounds like a perv but seriously think about it. I personally know some people who act like Miko on both good and evil side, but my perspective is different than say, another forum reader. We have our own ideals and moral code and it is good that we love to share our ideas toward each other. Laws are created and society are made this way.

Miko is lawful good, we all agree to that (at least most of us, I believe she is still lawful good) but here is the question WHAT laws does she follow? In terms of gaming mechanics, Miko still follows the law of the land to the LETTER. which means there are no margin of error. You steal, you are guilty. It doesn't even matter WHY you steal or who you stole from. Miko continues to do things because that is all she have. She believes in the twelve gods and the law of the land. She may not believe what Shojo tells her anymore because she found out that he tricked her and lied to her. To her (and the law) lying is bad and faking/rigging a trial is even worst crime. It doesn't matter WHY Shojo did it, to Miko, Shojo is the lord of the city and made the crime and thus evil.

And of course a whole debate spew open like a barrel of worms. There are many fans who love the Miko type characters. Many people romantacize about it unconciously and do fill in the gap of what type of psyhe Miko has with the lines and story told us so far.

Of course most of us figure, she was an orphan, poor miko, raise in a harsh life, it is justified that she is what she is, but what if Miko was a man. I imagine we would have less male fan and more female fan of Miko. It is human nature.

But also we must look past the sex and look at the action and the whole picture overall. Was it a good act? was it a bad act? why there was a bad act for the greater good? what is the greater good?

[TinSoldier]

I seem to recall a very, very big fanclub once. It was all the fans of this nebbish little schizo german guy, but they liked him because they agreed with his ideology and cuz he was a great speaker. Weird thing was, their symbol wasn't him, it was this little diagonal-cross thing. Dammit, if only for the life of me I could remember who that guy WAS!Wait, so you're comparing me to the Nazis now just because I see Miko as an heroic character? WTF? :smallfurious:

That is complete and utter bull.

Anyway, moving along.

One reason I like Miko is that I see her as an heroic character, not a villainous one. I realize that she is flawed but I want her to overcome those flaws and I want to see that in the story.

I can remember very few characters in any medium who make me feel as strongly as Miko. I don't really understand it and maybe I'm a little disturbed by it. But I think the introduction of Miko is what turned this comic from, "meh I'll check every once in awhile" to compulsively hitting the refresh button. Without her in the comic, I doubt that I would continue to read. I might, but I'm almost positive that I would not visit the forums.

On Female Heroes
It seems to me in most action fiction (movies, books) the antagonists and the protagonists are usually male. There are some exceptions and that is one reason why they stand out. One of my favorite characters is Honor Harrington. I've been reading that series by David Weber for years. I'm not drawn to the character because she is female, I'm drawn to the character because she is all kinds of awesome and the books as a whole are well-written.

On Star Trek, I like Captain Janeway on Voyager. She isn't my favorite captain, but she still stands out in my mind. She's unique. She's tough. She's uncompromising.

Then lets look at Ripley from the Alien movies and Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies. While the first movie in both series was good, neither character really stood out to me until the second movie in each series. They were much better characters in the sequels. Both Ripley and Sarah Connor were both somewhat stoic and pragmatic badassess who were willing to do what it took to achieve their goals. Cut them some slack because they're female? No way! More interesting because they are female? Yes--and that's probably because it is the breaking of a stereotype (well, then it becomes its own stereotype but that's a different argument).

At no point do I want to cut these characters some slack because they are women. I just see their gender as a part of the whole character.

On Female Villains
Hmm. I can't really think of any good female villains.

One thing that seems cliche about female villains, though, is that at some point they either try to use their wiles on the hero or they actually fall romantically in love with the hero. In this case, thankfully, Miko has broken with stereotype. Thank the gods! It's yet another thing that makes her unique.

On Miko's Gender
I really don't think too much about Miko's gender. Except for Roy's lame come-ons earlier in the strip and his lame jokes in #408, Miko may as well have the same gender identity as Vaarsuvious. Nothing about her screams "hot kung-fu chick!" to me. I can only speak for myself, of course.

Now one point in favor of your argument:
Let's give Miko and Hinjo belts of gender changing. Miko the disturbed male paladin killing the nice female paladin's uncle in a fit of rage? While I could be a fan of a male Miko I don't know if I could in this particular circumstance. Then again, you would probably see about ten times the condemnation of Miko as well. Just a thought.

Edit: Oh, and another reason why I like her--I think it has been pointed out that on the forums she is attacked regularly just for breathing or being in any certain comic. So yeah, she's got that whole underdog thing too.

[Lord Zentei]

First off-This is a very non-PC argument; for those easily offended by me making claims about genders, please do not read. I'm not a chauvanist; but I do speak honestly and don't give a rat's *** about making arguments that make you feel good. So for the love of god don't just discard me as a pig because I define women and men as a bit different. This argument does not in any way reflect my personal view on the entire situation from the comic, but rather what I think of the majority RESPONSE to the comic.

Agreed on the subtlety. But why are you typing in all red font?

EDIT: except, you are in a private space as the poster below rightly pointed out. Though that was in response to another post of yours...


I have been avoiding saying this, but to hell with subtlety. I think that the reason we're getting a whole lot of backlash for Miko going evil is because she has breasts.

Interesting to see that it is only the Miko haters that assert this; they seem to consistently think that shouting "OMG! TEH REVERSE DISCRIMINATION" is somehow a valid counter-argument. Nor have I yet seen anything at all to justify such claims other than their opinion. But guess what: your opinions on someone else's motivations don't count for much at all.


There, I finally said it. Look, it's not a sexual desire thing at all, so don't mark me off as a perv (she's a STICK FIGURE). Instead, I think that this is a perfect example of the gender roles that are unconciously filled in when a character's motives are left ambiguous (which fits Miko to a T). We have a predominantly male population on this forum, and thus the female characters garner more sympathy solely out of subconcious affection. People naturally react better to characters of the opposite gender, because they obviously do not know said gender as well as their own and thus can add Romanticized traits where the opposite of said trait is not immediately evident.

And I think that you are wrong. I'm not going to waste as many words on it as you, but my statement has no less substance.


I think that Miko gains too much sympathy because, even subconciously, the male readership had long ago filled the void that would later become the murder drive with the comfortable traditionalist images of the sweet, innocent young woman. Thus, the reason why it seemed so unlikely and forced to some readers when she killed Shojo.

Personally, I was not surprised. I had in fact predicted that she would attempt to overthrow him, though I hadn't predicted that she would go quite as far as she did.


Try to imagine her as a man. If it was a male paladin who snapped like this, even if he had EXACTLY the same lines as Miko, I seriously doubt that there would be this much opposition, except for perhaps a slight increase in opposition from "Not-Miko"'s fangirls.

No, I don't think so. My position, for one, would not have changed at all. As for other people's motivations, I'm not going to second guess them, because frankly it is rude, especially when used as a pretext to dismiss their opinion.


Again reiterated, <snip snip reiteration>

Take only her lines, and rarely do they match the image of Miko that is widely accepted by forumgoers. Say I'm overanalyzing, I say that this happens everywhere and is unavoidable, and neither chauvanistic nor stereotyping. It's human nature to assume, and the Romanticized image of humans is currently the model that we percieve as desirable (no, NOT sexually, that's not my argument). ...Man, despite all the disclaimers, I bet I'm gonna get a lotta grief for this bomb.

Oh, snore. It's not as though you're the first to make this claim: see my exchange with TheStorminMormo in the reaction thread proper. You're certainly more verbose than he is, but your arguments have no more substace.

To summarise your whole argument:

"I think Miko is evil, but some people disagree. I think that this disagreement is because she is female - i.e. that it is reverse discrimination. I think this is reverse discrimination because she is female and because females are often discriminated against reversely. Justification for this: see my earlier position."

Hey, how about this:

"I think that many people who object to Miko being defended is simply because she has breasts. She is a stuck-up holier than thou female, and these people feel that females should know their place".

Get my point?



I seem to recall a very, very big fanclub once. It was all the fans of this nebbish little schizo german guy, but they liked him because they agreed with his ideology and cuz he was a great speaker. Weird thing was, their symbol wasn't him, it was this little diagonal-cross thing. Dammit, if only for the life of me I could remember who that guy WAS!

Wow. Godwin's Law. You lose. :smallsmile: Not the first time you've used it either, eh? LOL!


PS. This thread has digressed further and further from the original point, though, and I like hearing response to my theory as opposed to bickering. Yup, you too Lurker.

What... I thought you were opposed to subtlety?

[elliott20]

Freedom of expression: the greatest offense of all.
That only applies to a space that is deemed a public space.

This is the giant's personally owned webspace. As such, it is more akin to being at somebody's house. And the way I see it, I try to follow other people's rules when I'm under their roof. If I don't like the rules, I leave.

[pere]

because the dominant woman persona is one of the least naturally comfortable ones for men

This is a very good observation, except for the fact that is is not "naturally". It is rather the result of socialisation into an environment with standardized chauvinistic behaviour, i.e. expecting a womans role to be naturally submissive.

It is also the single most convincing explanation why there is such a big male "Go Roy!" movement going on on this forum when the male hero reacts to his uncomfortable feeling in confrontation with a non-submissive female by taking the opportunity of a weak moment of hers to re-reduce her to her "natural" role (rather having sex with men (paladins) ) and penetrate her with his huge sword.

The strictly male "Go Roy!" opinion is then justified because the male hero was in a rage and needed to save the universe and it was self-defense because she was a dangerous lunatic etc..

All these are rather weak excuses, because concerning the behaviour of the hero there were in fact lots of other valid options. Still it was a very plausible reaction in terms of consistent roleplaying of the hero.

It is nevertheless carefully to consider if such behaviour should really be applauded to.


Edit:typos..

[chibibar]

Miko is a very strong character in terms of power and character. If "most" male encounter a live person like Miko, many men will usually shy away because she is the dominate one. Of course there are some male who love dominate women (and vice versa)

I still agree that since Miko is female, many people want to see her character flesh out and become better since she is a powerful character with flaws. Character with flaws are more memorable than a "perfect" character. It is so boring to play a character that is perfect. Miko can go either way and the fans are hoping that she will go to the path of good (hence many rally to her defense)

If Miko was a male, well.. I don't see as many come to the defense like for Male Miko. mainly because it woulbe cliche in my book. A typical angst male with powers and misguided or something is not as cool as a female version :)

[Lord Zentei]

Miko is a very strong character in terms of power and character. If "most" male encounter a live person like Miko, many men will usually shy away because she is the dominate one. Of course there are some male who love dominate women (and vice versa)

I still agree that since Miko is female, many people want to see her character flesh out and become better since she is a powerful character with flaws. Character with flaws are more memorable than a "perfect" character. It is so boring to play a character that is perfect. Miko can go either way and the fans are hoping that she will go to the path of good (hence many rally to her defense)

If Miko was a male, well.. I don't see as many come to the defense like for Male Miko. mainly because it woulbe cliche in my book. A typical angst male with powers and misguided or something is not as cool as a female version :)

I agree with your position in the portion underlined, but not the contention that a male Miko would not generate the same response: your arguments other than that are not gender specific, they could really be applied to any "strong and ostensibly good, but tragically flawed" character.

The issue of whether the male Miko would be cliché is a bit weak, since many actually see the "wacky kung-fu chick" thing as cliché in and of itself.

[chibibar]

True... but I'm more in line of who will come to her defense on the forum. A female character will likely get more support. Miko is really down in the dumps right now...

Her life is pretty much ruin
Her powers are taken away
She just kill her lord

If a male character did all that, I don't think many would give Roy a hard time giving the male Miko the smack down, but since Miko is female, I believe that she is getting more support and following.

The main reason I believe this because we already have an angst male character in our story... ROY. That man has issues on different levels. Another character with psychoticness (is that a word?) is Belkar (which has a unique following but not as much I don't think.. well maybe cause he is funny)

having another "psycho" male "main character" wouldn't work out in this storyline.

[Lord Zentei]

The main reason I believe this because we already have an angst male character in our story... ROY. That man has issues on different levels. Another character with psychoticness (is that a word?) is Belkar (which has a unique following but not as much I don't think.. well maybe cause he is funny)

having another "psycho" male "main character" wouldn't work out in this storyline.

Well, his whole life hasn't crumbled around his ears in the same way, though. Moreover, he has never been in the situation of being consistently trying to do the right thing, but managing to mess it up, leading to his misfortune.

And Belkar does have quite the follwing. I seem to recall a number of people arguing that he wasn't Evil at one point, in fact. :smallwink:

[Estelindis]

NecroPaladin: I think your original post was thoughtful and well-written, but I have to disagree. I'm female, and I find Miko to be a great character - at times, she's very frustrating, but it is still easy for me to sympathise with her. As I've commented in another thread, I feel the same way about Javert, a male character from Les Miserables who bears some similarities to Miko. So, personally, I don't think that people's feelings for her are based primarily on her gender. I wouldn't rule it out as an influence for some, however.

[Skyserpent]

NecroPaladin: I think you original post was thoughtful and well-written, but I have to disagree. I'm female, and I find Miko to be a great character - at times, she's very frustrating, but it is still easy for me to sympathise with her. As I've commented in another thread, I feel the same way about Javert, a male character from Les Miserables who bears some similarities to Miko. So, personally, I don't think that people's feelings for her are based primarily on her gender. I wouldn't rule it out as an influence for some, however.

Great example, and even though I myself am male, I do in fact love the character Javert as well.

[okpokalypse]

First off, I haven't read through the whole thing, so if I'm reiterating something already posted, I apologize. That said...

I completely agree that the female gender is an influence in our perception of Miko. It's that way for anything. Lets take a look back to forum response of two more similar, more clear cut examples:

When Sabine was attempting to manipulate Roy through sexual advances (during their combat - when he was winning), a lot of male forum participants had the reaction of, "Roy's the man - but I'm glad he threw her out a window". When Nale was manipulating Haley and the possibility of a sexual advance came from that, there was MAJOR outrage.

The reason is that, in our soceity, we're taught that women are vulnerable and need protecting. This starts very early on from the "don't hit girls" speeches one's parents give a young child, up through adolescence and into the workplace. Gender defines many circumstances and laws that are only now beginning to become more gender inspecific. Take sexual harassament in the workplace. Beyond that there's what manners dictate as proper. You open the door for a lady. You're taught to do things for them at every turn throughout like as proper etiquette. It completely taints our perception of women as those that need care-taking.

( This is the reason that as Equality grows, Chivalry slowly dies out )

As to those people who find themselves attracted to dominant (not necessarily strong) women, the vast majority of these (as I'm paraphrasing psych studies I've read) are male submissives. It's more than anything the simple desire to have a partnership (romantic or non-romantic) with a clearly defined dominant. It's a very rare dominant male that can be friend or lover to a dominant female. In the workplace it's more common, but not outside.

I myself toe the line... I find dominant women a relief because, most often, they're termed "low maintenance" and independent. But that's just a majority, and not a given. I've always perceived the "strong" adjective to women as a way of identifying independence - not dominance or personality swings towards being extroverted / introverted.

In any event, Miko once appealed to many men across a broad spectrum. She's obviously a Dependent, Dominant, Introvert. Dependant upon a moral code and justification for all her acts and reasons - she is not a free thinker or capably self-sufficient when it comes to decisionmaking. Dominant in every way that she handles herself. Introverted in that she divulges nothing of herself - just cites a manta of her code as a protective shield of her character (this ties into her Dependant nature). This will appeal to nearly all caretaker males (Who are attracted to Dependant / Introvert and confuse it with Innocence and Purity) and Submissive Males (Who seeks a Dominant Partner) alike.

( In terms of Kiersay Tempreament, she would be an ISTJ (http://www.typelogic.com/istj.html). )

However, her recent actions shattered the innocence ideals normally associated with the attraction fostered by the caretaker male. Those are the people who've turned on her the most in light of all this (and are the vast majority of men). The only males left who find her attractive (in terms of persona) are the Submissives.

Right now, I'd be surprised if any women are in favor of her. She should draw the ire of Independent women because her dependence upon a flawed rationale brought about by her code led to her downfall. She should be out of Favor with Dominants because she's being said dominance is being portrayed as murderous rage. Dependant Submissives might excuse her actions because she was "manipulated" into her state - but that's a common turn for any Dependant. Blame others before you blame yourself.

Anyhow... I've rambled long enough...

In conclusion, were Miko Male and Shojo Female and the same acts were perpetrated, there'd be less excuses made for Miko as Dependant Submissive women don't often sympathize violent male agression as they do female. The Submissive men would just chalk it up to another evil male with no romanticism attached to the protagonist. The Dominant men would apply the evil brand to Miko as well, and apply sympathy to the "in need" Shojo cut down.

[TinSoldier]

I think I've just been insulted, but with all of the psychological mumbo-jumbo it is difficult to tell...

[Callista]

I'm a girl and I rather like Miko (as a character; I'd hate her as a person); seeing her fall is really sad to me, even though I've expected it to happen for a long time.

But then, my gender may have little to do with it, since the Paladin has always been my favorite class, just because I love the image of someone who goes out and saves princesses from dragons (or vice versa, in the case of evil princesses and metallic dragons). I've always been very idealistic--LG on all the character tests--and I really do identify with being tempted to be proud or judgmental; those are faults that come very easily to those of us who are Lawful.

Only problem is, Miko seems to be focusing on being Lawful so much that she's forgotten Good... the thing that's there to temper your allegiance to a code of rules, that should be a paladin's highest goal.

In Miko's defense, she's really had very little experience of Good in her life. She's had plenty of monster-killing experience, sure; and she's got her theology down pat... but she grew up in a strongly Lawful environment--with monks--and probably in an environment where personal attachments--friendship, love, family--are not thought to be particularly important. Chances are she has a theological definition of Good, but not a practical one. No one ever really showed her what compassion, love, mercy, etc., meant... so she really doesn't know, in more than an intellectual sense.

That's always been Miko's fatal flaw, and one you see in a lot of Paladins: She values Law above Good.

It's not like Miko couldn't have overcome that flaw; if she had, she could still have been a great Paladin. But her fear of being wrong has kept her from questioning her own beliefs and actions; and that results in a problem: Either she admits she's wrong, or she abandons Good.

Miko's choice: abandon Good--something she doesn't really know all that well, or is very attached to.

There's still hope for redemption; but I think someone is going to have to show her what Good is, exactly, before she can come back to it.

[elliott20]

I think I've just been insulted, but with all of the psychological mumbo-jumbo it is difficult to tell...


you have.

by liking Miko, you've jsut been labelled either

1. a submissive male who likes an overtly dominant woman
or
2. a misogynist male who subconsciously wants to take care and soften Miko, thereby being her savior and still feel like a man.

there is basically no win-win scenario from this.

nope.

people can't possibly like Miko because she's just one tough cookie. Nope, it all has to do with attraction.


In Miko's defense, she's really had very little experience of Good in her life. She's had plenty of monster-killing experience, sure; and she's got her theology down pat... but she grew up in a strongly Lawful environment--with monks--and probably in an environment where personal attachments--friendship, love, family--are not thought to be particularly important. Chances are she has a theological definition of Good, but not a practical one. No one ever really showed her what compassion, love, mercy, etc., meant... so she really doesn't know, in more than an intellectual sense.
a temple full of monks not teach miko what it means to be controlled, to have compassion, mercy and love for all creatures?

I need to stop thinking that these monks might actually be similar to buddhist monks in some fashion.

[Estelindis]

When Sabine was attempting to manipulate Roy through sexual advances (during their combat - when he was winning), a lot of male forum participants had the reaction of, "Roy's the man - but I'm glad he threw her out a window". When Nale was manipulating Haley and the possibility of a sexual advance came from that, there was MAJOR outrage.
I think the difference in reactions had more to do with two other factors: 1) Roy and Haley are both heroes (meaning that readers are better disposed towards them in general), whereas Nale and Sabine are villains; and 2) Roy and Sabine each knew who the other was, and the attempt to trick each other was mutual, whereas Haley thought Nale was Elan (so Nale was taking advantage of her in a much worse way).

[Sir_Norbert]

This topic really saddens me -- to the point that I haven't read all the in-between stuff after the first post, so if what I'm about to say has already been said, I apologise.

Most of us react differently to a female character than we would to a male character who does the same actions. That in itself, I wouldn't disagree with; it could well be true. I'm sure it is true that the very complex way I perceive and react to Miko is coloured by her gender and would be different if she were male. If that's all you wanted to say, I would have no problem.

What I really do object to is that you're using all this as an excuse to stick your fingers in your ears. I've argued in some of the other threads about why exactly I believe Miko is a Good-aligned character who, although she certainly deserved to fall -- she was wrong to act on her assumptions without questioning how sure she was, I'm not trying to excuse that -- does not thereby suddenly become Evil. Now you're coming along and, in essence, saying that my arguments are not worth listening to, as I'm only saying all this because Miko is female. I'm sorry, but you have no excuse.

[Wyborn]

On Female Villains
Hmm. I can't really think of any good female villains.

One thing that seems cliche about female villains, though, is that at some point they either try to use their wiles on the hero or they actually fall romantically in love with the hero. In this case, thankfully, Miko has broken with stereotype. Thank the gods! It's yet another thing that makes her unique.

Just thought I'd lend a hand here with some of my favorites.

Maleficent from Disney's Sleeping Beauty. She redefines what people mean when they say "evil".

Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. Probably the single greatest female villain of all time, and if you don't have an Xbox I highly recommend getting this game for your PC if only so you can see how awesome she is. She's not even a villain in the classical sense, but she is the ultimate manipulative character ever, a Machiavellian monster who knows all the effects of her actions across all the universe and revels in them.

The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz. I mean, really.

Kerrigan from Starcraft. How many people describe themselves as, and I quote, "Queen Bitch of the Universe"?

Nurse Ratchet, of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. This one doesn't even really require an explanation.

The Queen, from Disney's Snow White. This may seem redundant after I've already listed Maleficent, but they're really two different character subscribing to two different kinds of evil: the only real link between them is that you don't want to be in their way.

It's true, good female villains are hard to come by in comparison to male villains (they're apparently much harder to write for), but they are still very much out there.

[elliott20]

if you write a character from a strictly gender role concepts, you get nothing more than a caricature of gender stereotypes.

[berrew]

I always thought of Miko as being Fitzwilliam Darcy (the male protagonist in Pride and Prejudice, probably the most popular book of its kind ever written), but so far, without the capacity for introspective reflection that redeems him. From what we see of her in OoTS I am sure that, that, like Darcy, she was "A selfish being in practice, though not in principle... given good morals, but left to follow them in pride and conceit."

[TinSoldier]

Just thought I'd lend a hand here with some of my favorites.

Maleficent from Disney's Sleeping Beauty. She redefines what people mean when they say "evil".

Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. Probably the single greatest female villain of all time, and if you don't have an Xbox I highly recommend getting this game for your PC if only so you can see how awesome she is. She's not even a villain in the classical sense, but she is the ultimate manipulative character ever, a Machiavellian monster who knows all the effects of her actions across all the universe and revels in them.

The Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz. I mean, really.

Kerrigan from Starcraft. How many people describe themselves as, and I quote, "Queen Bitch of the Universe"?

Nurse Ratchet, of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. This one doesn't even really require an explanation.

The Queen, from Disney's Snow White. This may seem redundant after I've already listed Maleficent, but they're really two different character subscribing to two different kinds of evil: the only real link between them is that you don't want to be in their way.

It's true, good female villains are hard to come by in comparison to male villains (they're apparently much harder to write for), but they are still very much out there.Thanks.

I forgot about the Disney villains, especially Maleficent (probably my favorite) and Ursula. I haven't played KOTOR II yet because I haven't finished KOTOR I.

[Lord Zentei]

Thanks.

I forgot about the Disney villains, especially Maleficent (probably my favorite) and Ursula. I haven't played KOTOR II yet because I haven't finished KOTOR I.

Disney does tend to produce good female villains. There is also Cruella de Vil, though she is not in the same league as Maleficent.

[Wyborn]

Well, you can still play KotOR II without playing KotOR I - Obsidian went to great length to make sure that the events in the original weren't spoiled by the second one, and the second game really has a much stronger narrative and a better cast of characters. Hell, it has some of the best, strongest female characters in gaming, and some of the best males to boot. It's just chock full of good stuff, it warrants playing by everyone who can run it.

And yeah, Maleficent in terms of Disney villains is probably tops.

[okpokalypse]

I think I've just been insulted, but with all of the psychological mumbo-jumbo it is difficult to tell...

Heh, No insult, just regurgitating things I've read during my education.

And as always with any "profile" - there are often many exceptions to the norm. It's just that it's a recorded majority response given certain personality types. I'll admit I disliked Miko from the start because I generally don't like dependant people - whether their dependence is upon another, a doctrine or faith - when that dependency ruins their ability to reason.

Miko immediately struck me as an inquisitor - which is an archetype for Dependant Dominance.

[chibibar]

That is the same reason why I don't like her. I believe people should think for themselves not because "the gods told me to" I mean Miko can use the twelve gods as a guideline and knowing what is good and evil, but we are still human (well she is human) and thus can make decision other than. It is Evil Smithe smithe smithe!

But you know, I got to honestly say that Miko can be a great character for the forces of good once she gain some humility :)

[Lord Zentei]

That is the same reason why I don't like her. I believe people should think for themselves not because "the gods told me to" I mean Miko can use the twelve gods as a guideline and knowing what is good and evil, but we are still human (well she is human) and thus can make decision other than. It is Evil Smithe smithe smithe!

But you know, I got to honestly say that Miko can be a great character for the forces of good once she gain some humility :)

Well, many of those who like her like her as a character. Same way as Belkar and Xykon. In that capacity she is indeed awesome.

As a person, I probably wouldn't get along with her (for the very reasons you named); though given the reader's-eye-view of the whole situation, I can't help but sympathise regardless: she really does want to be good, but her delusion and hotheadedness get in the way. Some antagonists are sympathetic. Fallen heroes are generally high on the list of such.

[okpokalypse]

Well, many of those who like her like her as a character. Same way as Belkar and Xykon. In that capacity she is indeed awesome.

As a person, I probably wouldn't get along with her (for the very reasons you named); though given the reader's-eye-view of the whole situation, I can't help but sympathise regardless: she really does want to be good, but her delusion and hotheadedness get in the way. Some antagonists are sympathetic. Fallen heroes are generally high on the list of such.

See, and I look at her and don't think she wants to be Good. I think she wants to be Righteous. Deep down, from the very beginning, she's acted like an Inquisitor, and has now upped that to acting like a Tyrant.

She reminds me a lot of the Born-Again group at my college many years ago. They were (for the most part) former junkies, alcoholics and general arse-holes. Then they got all Christified, and went preachy nuts assuming everyone needed to be an adherant to some divine set of laws to be as good a person as they now were. They couldn't fathom that people could not be "sinners" without a major adherance to their religion - and that annoyed the hell out of me. They also saw people who didn't adhere to their beliefs as being somewhat lesser and un-enlightened, assuming the worst of them for it.

I see Miko much the same way, and I've not a shred of sympathy for her.

[Charles Phipps]

Well I personally see her as very "righteous" as well and from my own life experiences, know how seductive that can be. That's why I want to see her shaken from it.

[Callista]

a temple full of monks not teach miko what it means to be controlled, to have compassion, mercy and love for all creatures?

I need to stop thinking that these monks might actually be similar to buddhist monks in some fashion.Yeah, I'm thinking D&D Monk here--Lawful only, no restrictions on Good or Evil. (Evil Monks are actually very interesting characters to play... I'd like to see an evil Monk NPC on OOTS one of these days... see how Rich plays 'em.)

If they were Buddhist-style Monks, Miko might've turned out way different.

Re. Born-again Christians: Just wanted to apologize for the uppity attitude of the ones you've met--we're not all like that, trust me. :) When most Christians say "sinner", they mean everyone, including themselves; imperfect human beings who, since God embodies absolute perfection, don't measure up to his standards. "Born again" just means forgiven for your own imperfections, though you're still as flawed as the rest of humankind. Some people kind of miss the "everyone's a sinner" part and think they're better than other people, which totally isn't true.

[okpokalypse]

Re. Born-again Christians: Just wanted to apologize for the uppity attitude of the ones you've met--we're not all like that, trust me. :) When most Christians say "sinner", they mean everyone, including themselves; imperfect human beings who, since God embodies absolute perfection, don't measure up to his standards. "Born again" just means forgiven for your own imperfections, though you're still as flawed as the rest of humankind. Some people kind of miss the "everyone's a sinner" part and think they're better than other people, which totally isn't true.

Oh, believe me, I completely know. Born-Again Christians have a stigma around them because of a minority within their ranks. A very vocal minority, but a minority of the righteous none-the-less. One thing I always try and do it give everyone a fair shake when I meet them. It's not always easy, as everyone, myself included, has got their own prejudices and pre-conceived notions about any group - but I try :).

The ones that really bug me are the Jehovas Witnesses in my neighborhood. Not only do they have the audacity to knock on my door at 6:30 am on a Saturday morning, but they do it with their kids in tow so I can't properly curse them out :).

[Sage in the Playground]

Oh, believe me, I completely know. Born-Again Christians have a stigma around them because of a minority within their ranks. A very vocal minority, but a minority of the righteous none-the-less. One thing I always try and do it give everyone a fair shake when I meet them. It's not always easy, as everyone, myself included, has got their own prejudices and pre-conceived notions about any group - but I try :).

The ones that really bug me are the Jehovas Witnesses in my neighborhood. Not only do they have the audacity to knock on my door at 6:30 am on a Saturday morning, but they do it with their kids in tow so I can't properly curse them out :).

Those Jehovah's Witness sound just like a Stupid Good. They MEAN well but they over look that key detail that makes a good deed successful. How emphatic do you have to be to realize no one wants to listen to some stranger selling them their religion? I mean come on, SALESMEN realize to talk to people when they want to be talked to.

[chibibar]

well.. I try to keep real religion out of this :) rich don't like that.

But on the same note, I believe that Miko has a great capacity to be good, but consider what was taught to her and expose to her, this is all she knows. Even with her travels (which I think Shojo might have wanted her to learn about other walks of life) she doesn't seem to open up to other ideas or possibilities.

I know that Hinjo said that Miko is sent to these long distant mission cause she is a pain in the butt to be around, but I believe that Shojo sees something in Miko that many of us Fan or otherwise (I'm not a fan but I can appreciate such a character) that Miko could be a very good person with the right influence, but alas, Miko tend to hold on to something that she held dear to her heart... the twelve gods. She knows that she is an orphan, raise by monks and found a purpose in her life. All these long difficult missions that she is being sent to actually probably interpret as Miko is the only right person to do the job cause she is the best, and thus Miko figure since she is the best that her way must be the best.....

I know I might be stretching it, if you think about it (people in general) that is how a lot of people think and are wired. We are people made up of our experience. It all depends on how we use that experince and add to our personality library.

[Callista]

I've always thought Miko could be either very Good or very Evil... she is not the sort of person to be content with neutrality. Miko's personality is just too strong and driven not to make some sort of difference in the world.

Either she'll become very Evil... or she'll redeem herself and be an exemplary paladin (or perhaps Paladin of Freedom, if she rejects Law).

I just don't see her retiring to a nice Neutral life as a soldier or city guard. That's not Miko. She goes to extremes, whatever they may be.

[WhiteNoise]

if i may add my own bit of observation i think gender isnt the only issue here, alot of our opinions may also be based on our own personal views on the law vs chaos posit of the alignment system

Some people think that ruthlessly acting as judge jury and executioner is Lawful, (the OMG She did the right thing crowd)

Some people believe that ruthlessly applying the laws to situations that perhaps they shouldnt be applied to and rote following of the code is Lawful and good, Miko behaves correctly because it is her duty to rote following of the law,

Personally in the L vs C balance i have to say that i am probably a Neutral leaning towards Chaos, in that i do not accpet that the law has to or should precisly define everything, that at best the law should provide guidelines with a few careful boundaries to prevent abuse of personal freedom, Im not full on chaotic as i dont believe people can be trusted to figure it all out for themselves

(i still hold that miko's fall was more a Chaotic act than an Evil one in that she abandoned all pretence of law, order and justice and moved to the tyranny of i know im right so im going to do what the law wont or cant be trusted to)

Many of us who do not like and have never liked Miko probably came to that as she represents the WORST abuse of the phrase Lawful, and then claims to be Good by law,
Lawful good means that the laws that exist benefit the collective as much as possible,
Miko and 8/10 Paladins in world of warcraft think its about slaying anything defined as 'evil' or 'not our side' on sight to 'protect' society
also skipping Compassion and Mercy from their morals list despite those being in there,

Goblins are Evil, Redcloak is a Goblin THEREFORE Redcloak is Evil, its true but the Lawful person blindly accepts this once its in law and isnt open to the possibility of anything else as the LAW says Goblins are Evil,

Its the pigheaded delegation of common sense and leaping to conclusions,

Also its the uncompromising nature of the World View as well, i will admit it i am at least partly Utilitarian, if you told me heres a gun, shoot this innocent baby and you wont have to watch 4billion people die and know its all your fault as you could have saved them, id say is the saftey catch off and would pull the trigger,
the Lawful nature (blind obedience to code) displayed by miko dosnt allow that kind of choice, instead works on the idealistic never do wrong willingly attitude which strikes me and i guess a fair number of people as unrealistic,

a Paladin in the above case is doomed to fall, Letting 4Billion die is an act worthy of falling, shooting one innocent baby ditto, they cant win and are compelled by their code NOT to shoot and doom 4billion,

Hence why i agree with the probably NG Shojo, Saving half a million people is more important than upholding one out of date oath that serves no rational purpose

[chibibar]

I don't see her as being truely Evil. Miko always try to do good and follow the law to the letter, literally. That is her downfall, Miko's eyes need to open and truely see the world what it is. Nothing is absolute good or evil. Of course now that she doesn't have the divine protection, it wouldn't be too hard for a really evil entity to use magic and convince Miko to do evil things and make her think it is the right thing.

[Callista]

No; she's not Evil yet. I didn't say she was; that'd be silly. One evil act--even a very evil one like killing an unarmed old guy--is not going to change her alignment all the way.

But she's teetering on the edge of a descent towards Evil; and if she falls towards evil, once she gets going, I don't think she'll stop at Neutral.

[GoC]

I am of the opinion there are two diferent Mikos:
Pre-406 is driven, good at heart, and dedicated, but seriously misguided, opinionated, and inflexible.
Post-406 is a psicotic, evil character who believes that she is always right and good.

The transition is too unrealistic. I think Rich failed there.

[okpokalypse]

I am of the opinion there are two diferent Mikos:
Pre-406 is driven, good at heart, and dedicated, but seriously misguided, opinionated, and inflexible.
Post-406 is a psicotic, evil character who believes that she is always right and good.

The transition is too unrealistic. I think Rich failed there.

Nah, pre 406 she was building up to this in quite a few ways. He reasoning skills were slowly breaking down, and being held by Xykon and RedCloak - however temporarily, did some mental damage to her.

She's been teetering on the edge of rationality, and she basically lost her balance. She's confused perception with fact and righteousness with good.

I said some time ago that she doesn't want to be Good - not subconsciously. She wants to be Righteous. And the Righteous are NEVER wrong - which is why she's acting as she is now.

After the last 3 strips, I firmly believe an alignment shift is in order - but to LN or just plain N I'm not sure.

Her killing Shojo (#406) was Chaotic and Evil. I've done thinking about this, and what it comes down to is this: Just because you perceive something to be by the Gods laws does not make it so. She rationalized a failed legal system and killed him. This is EXACLTY what a Vigilante does, and they are the epitome of Chaotic. Evil I think we know is a given...

Her attacking Roy (#408) was a continuance of her acts of Chaos. Some argue Roy attacked her first - but it wasn't lethal. If you look at the strip, it specifically show a flatted blade, and a bruise on her cheek - not a slash. Then, after he attempts to subdue her, she goes all out attack on him. So now she's effectively in flight. Her blaming Roy for her own acts are a prime example of her current mental state.

Lastly, in #409, she attempts to kill a defensely, unarmed halfling before Hinjo intercedes. Then, Hinjo, as now reigning heir to the Sapphire Throne, explains the laws and... She ATTACKS him too. So she's now betrayed her order TWICE. Attacked the weaponless three times (Hinjo did not have his weapon drawn - her attacking his is actually quite dishonorable). An committed at least 3 willing Evil acts.

Personally, I think it warrants a shift to N at this point, as she's broken oath / laws moreso than she's committed evil, but without a doubt, 3 attempted murders of the unarmed does not a good NPC make.

[Lord Zentei]

I am of the opinion there are two diferent Mikos:
Pre-406 is driven, good at heart, and dedicated, but seriously misguided, opinionated, and inflexible.
Post-406 is a psicotic, evil character who believes that she is always right and good.

The transition is too unrealistic. I think Rich failed there.

I can't say that I agree. Note that she had already concluded in the All Along the Watchtower arc that the Order of the Stick was a group of villains working with Xykon (false), and that they had somehow rigged the trial (true).

Now: Go to strip 405 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) and read through to the present while making the change to the story line that the Order of the Stick are indeed Xykon's minions. In that regard, her striking down Shojo made "perfect sense". (Note the quotation marks. :smallwink:)

Of course, the whole issue revolves around the fact that her assumptions of the Order of the Stick were false, and that she let her pride get away with her.

On that score, there is the issue of wounded pride (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) of course, and that at the end of the trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) the OOtS were released, despite her very reasonable assumption that Belkar, their associate, was very much Evil.

Such was her pride in herself as the perfect Paladin, that she didn't consider that she might be wrong, and that the world was not all black and white as she had grown accustomed to beleiving. She was a genuinely good person, made an antagonist to the heroes by twists of fate and her own stubborn pride, and these eventually led to her fall. Tragic, but not unbeleivable.


I said some time ago that she doesn't want to be Good - not subconsciously. She wants to be Righteous. And the Righteous are NEVER wrong - which is why she's acting as she is now.

And slight disagreement here: she does (did?) want to be good, but with her uncompromising black/white worldview and stubborn pride, that got twisted into wanting righteousness. She just failed to make that crucial distinction.

[okpokalypse]

And slight disagreement here: she does (did?) want to be good, but with her uncompromising black/white worldview and stubborn pride, that got twisted into wanting righteousness. She just failed to make that crucial distinction.

I don't know if she ever wanted to be good. To quote her in the last strip, "The Gods have a plan for me. I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard!"

I think that shows a lot of what is Miko at the core. She was good because it made her special. She wasn't special because she was good. She shows her thirst for status with the single quote as she's attacking her rightful leige.

[Lord Zentei]

I don't know if she ever wanted to be good. To quote her in the last strip, "The Gods have a plan for me. I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard!"

I think that shows a lot of what is Miko at the core. She was good because it made her special. She wasn't special because she was good. She shows her thirst for status with the single quote as she's attacking her rightful leige.

Yes, but that is only after she is over the cliff, you need to examine how she acted before that point to know her prior motivations.

Such as with this thread: Linksky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33780). Also, keep in mind her black/white worldview. In that view, righteousness in the name of the Twelve Gods is good. And she really has been raised as a paragon, so that might have warped her thinking - I'm not defending the actions that led to her ultimate fall, mind; merely asserting that the madness and delusion grew from initially good, if narrow minded, origins.

[Krellen]

Just for the record - black and white worldviews are more the province of Evil people than Good. "Us vs. Them", with no room for compromise or disagreement.

Though some old interpretations of alignment thought killing evil was good, but that's been dismissed now.

[Demented]

Black and white worldviews are the province of Lawful People, not Good.
Us vs Them is lawful.
Me vs Them is Chaotic.

No room for compromise or disagreement is what a low wisdom score is for.

[Shiyuan]

Miko's redeeming qualities seem to be her piety to the gods, her love for her fellow Saphire Guard, her reverence for her city, her love for her horse, and also her desire to be the best Paladin she can be.

Also her strong will.

Hitler's redeeming qualities seem to be his piety to the Aryan myth, his love for his fellow Aryans, his reverence for Deutschland (The Vaterland, for which he fought valiantly for in World War I), his love for Eva Braun, and also his desire to be the best Fuhrer he can be.

Also, his strong will to power.

I wrote a thesis on Hitler's personal life and psychology. He honestly believed he was doing the greatest good for his people and by twist of logic, the world. Many of his followers believed this also. They also ignored or self-justified the unjust deaths of people without trials or convictions. They also were completely wrong.

[Callista]

I don't know if she ever wanted to be good. To quote her in the last strip, "The Gods have a plan for me. I know it! I am special, the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard!"

I think that shows a lot of what is Miko at the core. She was good because it made her special. She wasn't special because she was good. She shows her thirst for status with the single quote as she's attacking her rightful leige.I don't think she wants status; I think she wants self-worth and possibly independence, and is expressing it in an extreme (and irrational) manner. Everyone wants to be "special"; but Miko's had her life just about preordained for her, never encouraged to make her own decisions. So she never got the chance to find her own niche, nor tried to do so despite the circumstances (which wouldn't have been impossible, certainly; Hinjo seems to have done it despite his own pre-ordained path). Miko wants to feel powerful because she's spent a long time feeling powerless and covering it up with a lot of monster-killing. Really, Miko doesn't know who she is.

[ObsidianRose]

Wow, quite a nicely written essay, even if I don't agree with it all. While I agree that generally, females get the acquired innocent and mistreated template, Miko takes it one further by being in a comic meant for a male gamer audience, and as they'd be quite unused to female attention, they'd probably take itto the extreme. However, being a nearly gender neutral character in appearance, they'd probably not notice on a casual glance. I'd love to punt Miko's severed skull off a tower of course, but a lot of people do sympathize with her for some strange reason. Maybe they do it beacuse they're secretly Chaotic Good and they see the roots of it in her?

[John05]

I completely disagree!

I like Miko because I had a feeling she'd be a blackguard some day (despite it being incredibly chiche) and it looks like she's heading in that direction right now!

I'm cheering for her the entire way!

~John, who enjoys overused fallen paladin story arcs

[Closet_Skeleton]

Somewhere on the second page (I did read the whole thread) someone mentioned Miko being humourless and her comment in 375 about "heavenly oats". The idea was that apparently Miko meant this as a serious comment and was unaware of the 'joke'.

I found this opinion very bizzare. Have you ever seen a group of friends where one person is physically differant (for example having red hair or being fatter)? They'll say what essentially ammounts to an insult but in a affectionate way. When people make jokes about their heavy friends eating too much it's because they feel comfortable that their friend won't take offense.

The point I noticed (heavily inspired by comments on other threads) is that the only person Miko feels cormfortable with enough to insult is a horse. In the same strip Miko mentions there not being time to allow Windriker to rest. If she was talking to Roy (or anyone else) she'd expect him to stop whatever he was doing and do what she said. The poor girl has no understanding of people and can only confide in an animal that cannot speak.

I imagine that Miko thinks of people in these ways:


Lord Shojo: Since he introduced the idea of being a Paladin to her, Miko regards Shoujo as the perfect ideal of what he taught her. Miko never tried to understand Shoujo, she merely used his words to justify herself when she was emotionally vulnerable. When Miko finds out that Shojo is not who she thinks she is she faces a crises. From her point of view all evidence points to the Paladin code Shoujo taught her to be a lie. However since she cannot accept that fact without becoming a lie herself she decides that the world must be a lie instead.
Other Paladins: Hinjo's remarks in 265 reveal that none of the Paladins are very close to Miko. Miko conciders other Paladins to be just as pious as her and therefore leaves them alone. Since she already believes Paladins to be right she doesn't feel that she needs to learn anything further about them.
Commoners: For example, the dirt farmers in 211. Miko sees commoners as innocents that need to be protected. She has no understanding of what commoners actually do, instead she merely has a naive belief in "the noble poor".
Belkar: Although later Miko's preconcieved ideas about Belkar are revealed to be pretty much true; when Belkar first blocks Miko's power with his lead sheet, Miko has no justification that he might be evil. Miko is hostile to Belkar because he resists her ability to judge people magically. When she finds that her normal "black and white" supernatural vision doesn't help her she strikes out against whatever interfers with the world view that she's comfortable with.
Redcloak, etc: Miko likes being able to easily judge Redcloak as evil because it makes things simple. Miko can kill Redcloak because he's a goblin. This gives Miko a much needed sense of security in a murky world that would confuse her. She has no interest in seeing Redcloak as a person because playing artificial roles in a opera is more attractive than dealing with real people.However Miko allows herself to identify with her companion Windstriker because he's always with her. The Miko in the first few panels of comic 375 is Miko acting herself in front of someone she trusts. Every other appearance of Miko is Miko trying to conform to a charade she believes other people conform to due to her non-existant empathy.

The problem with Miko is that she's still a little girl who cried when she left the monestry. Her world view has not matured at all. Miko finally snaps because she refuses to admit that she is living a lie and instead struggles on trying to prove the opposite.

On the whole gender thing, I would say that Miko actually falls completely into a gender stereotype. The idea that a woman with a job is emotionally insecure. You see this all the time with female detectives in fiction. No matter how capable they are an identiyable female character is always a emotionally insecure and lets her hormone's get the better of her. The above paragraphs were my attempt to understand Miko as a person based of the information presented in the comic. They may very well have been influenced by what I suggested in this paragraph.

[Demented]

No matter how capable they are an identiyable female character is always a emotionally insecure and lets her hormone's get the better of her.

If I had a bone to pick with what you say, it's the "identiyable". Firstly, because it's a spelling error. I'm a hopeless pedantic. Secondly, because it opens up room for the argument that emotionally insecure female characters are "identifiable". It's not all what you meant, but I thought it a curious observation.

The only significant female character in OOTS that's not insecure is Sabine! Well, unless one assumes that V is female, and we know that V can hardly be called "identifiable"! Har har. (Which reminds me, the oracle too....)

[War]

Well, both major genders tend to be poorly disposed towards someone who breaks their culture's gender roles. You'd think women would be all over the idea of a strong female, but no; both sexes are taught the same expectations growing up. Indeed, a deviant of your own sex is a much more direct challenge to your systems (as the excellent Ashildr discussed in greater detail upthread) whereas the opposite is at least still good for reproduction.

That, of course, is on an extremely basic level. Plus, this is a niche audience. Strong female characters (or at least the conceit thereof) are relatively common in fantasy -- although they still, traditionally, tend to exist for the titillation of the male audience, which is why the chainmail bikini is a stereotype. So the boys learn that even women who appear dangerous still have boobies, and the girls get a bit of confused indulgence in wish-fulfillment escapism. We're a bit more used to it than the mainstream.

But not completely. Look back at those female villains listed on the previous page. How many of them are old, unattractive, or physically defeminized? (Then go find some attractive ones and count how many times their sole modus operandi, or even the villainous goal itself, is seduction. But this is really another topic.)

Anyway, so I'm sure gender factors into the vast majority of responses, because it's pretty near impossible to keep it out. But it's certainly not the only factor either. Good illustration:

To the audience, when she was under her cowl, she was a "he," and a very badass one at that. An assassin. Except that assassin happens to be a female paladin who is smoking hot. Nothing about Miko has ever changed, just her perceptions of her.
If she had only turned out to be female, some people would more than likely lose some respect for the character, often without even realizing it, but they wouldn't be rioting in the streets. Badass Assassin is a well-loved stereotype, which, like most, is male by default, but has some room for women under the chainmail bikini clause. You wouldn't necessarily like that she was being a jerk and bisecting kings, but it wouldn't be surprising. Miko betrays a lot of the expectations of her role, gender being one of them, but not the only.