3.5 Ranger Build advice

[brutticusforce]

Well, Playground, its that time again: my group has rolled up new characters for a new campaign. The GM has played with us for two years, but hasn't run anything in much longer. He has indicated he intends to run a few modules (probably dating back from 3.0)

The party has assembled. We have a half elf sorceress, a Human barbarian, a human cleric (probably using a great sword) and me, a half elf ranger. Im not sure how roleplay intensive this campaign will be, but our previous campaigns always manage to be such. The DM placed no hard and fast restrictions on our options, but said "Your character concept should be explainable in like, a phrase."

So, the focus is archery. I was looking at spell less ranger in complete warrior, especially depending on how long or short the game goes: ranger spell casting seems kind of useless (especially since i don't know which splats I will be allowed). I was considering the Beastmaster PRC eventually, but i dont know how that stacks with Ranger companion. I don't which feats are good. I took Point Blank Shot for my first feat. Although we haven't begun play yet, so I might be able to change that.

TL; DR: help OP build a half elf ranger

[hemming]

Well, Playground, its that time again: my group has rolled up new characters for a new campaign. The GM has played with us for two years, but hasn't run anything in much longer. He has indicated he intends to run a few modules (probably dating back from 3.0)

The party has assembled. We have a half elf sorceress, a Human barbarian, a human cleric (probably using a great sword) and me, a half elf ranger. Im not sure how roleplay intensive this campaign will be, but our previous campaigns always manage to be such. The DM placed no hard and fast restrictions on our options, but said "Your character concept should be explainable in like, a phrase."

So, the focus is archery. I was looking at spell less ranger in complete warrior, especially depending on how long or short the game goes: ranger spell casting seems kind of useless (especially since i don't know which splats I will be allowed). I was considering the Beastmaster PRC eventually, but i dont know how that stacks with Ranger companion. I don't which feats are good. I took Point Blank Shot for my first feat. Although we haven't begun play yet, so I might be able to change that.

TL; DR: help OP build a half elf ranger

Are you looking for class dips (or) feat progression for a straight ranger?

Beastmaster stacks with existing animal companion benefits

[Nihilarian]

What level are you starting at and what material do you have available? Can you use 3.0, pathfinder, dragon magazine, or setting specific material?

[brutticusforce]

Are you looking for class dips (or) feat progression for a straight ranger?

Beastmaster stacks with existing animal companion benefits

Thats what I was asking. I dont know anything about 3.5 Rangers, aside from what i could scrounge around from a few handbooks. is strait ranger reasonable? I was looking at the Scout/hunter multiclass feat, or the paladin one (Devoted tracker and silent hunter i think.) I dont know how good those are.

from what I was reading, the beast master companion is quite a bit better. I wasnt sure how it mathed out, what level I should PRC into it, or if i should go for the Ranger's native companion at all.


What level are you starting at and what material do you have available? Can you use 3.0, pathfinder, dragon magazine, or setting specific material?

We have 3.5 for sure. Core, most of the completes, and many splats, I think. I think the rest is up for discussion, but i wouldn't hold out for 3.0 or PF. He said vanilla Grayhawk, so I would presume no setting specific stuff, but I can always ask.

[Nihilarian]

The Swift Hunter feat is so good it got its own handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html).

[hemming]

The other two popular variants are takes on the mystic ranger (Dragon Magazine) and wildshape ranger (class variant - CW I think)

The ranger is a solid foundation for many things

Edit - so it depends on what you want this guy to be: master archer, a beastly man of the wild and his animal pals or gishy utility box

The ranger is often a little of all three - but depending on how you optimize you can play up one of these elements

[brutticusforce]

The other two popular variants are takes on the mystic ranger (Dragon Magazine) and wildshape ranger (class variant - CW I think)

The ranger is a solid foundation for many things

Edit - so it depends on what you want this guy to be: master archer, a beastly man of the wild and his animal pals or gishy utility box

The ranger is often a little of all three - but depending on how you optimize you can play up one of these elements

I wasnt sure if I wanted to go archer or beastmaster. I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of some builds so I could see what the finished product would look like and maybe steal ideas.

And once I pick a direction, Im not sure what to pick to play up various elements.

[hemming]

Swift Hunter has got you covered on the archery front

I don't really have a complete build worked out for animal companion max (I'm sure someone in the playground will jump in to help you out) but taking a dip into beastmaster (which gives you an effective druid level for animal companion purposes) and taking the natural bond feat is a good start

[brutticusforce]

Swift Hunter has got you covered on the archery front

I don't really have a complete build worked out for animal companion max (I'm sure someone in the playground will jump in to help you out) but taking a dip into beastmaster (which gives you an effective druid level for animal companion purposes) and taking the natural bond feat is a good start

Is it possible to combine these two build ideas? I understand it may not be wise... but is it workable?

Heres where I need help see? the nuts and bolts. Do I snag the Ranger's native companion? or should i skip out on it all together?

[Nihilarian]

Is it possible to combine these two build ideas? I understand it may not be wise... but is it workable?

Heres where I need help see? the nuts and bolts. Do I snag the Ranger's native companion? or should i skip out on it all together?Swift Hunter loses a minimum of 3 class levels, stunting an already stunted Animal Companion. Trade the Animal Companion out and get a Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) instead.

If your DM is nice, he might let you take the Light Cavalry acf (dragon magazine 346), let you activate skirmish while mounted, and let you take the Devoted Tracker feat, running off your Scout level rather than Paladin.

[hemming]

Is it possible to combine these two build ideas? I understand it may not be wise... but is it workable?

Heres where I need help see? the nuts and bolts. Do I snag the Ranger's native companion? or should i skip out on it all together?

This really depends on the op level of your game - if you are not playing with a group of high-optimizers, then I would tend to say yes its workable

You are getting the swift hunter benefits and making up for your loss in advancing animal companion through level dips and feats (you definitely want to avoid wildshape ranger for a swift hunter, which is a major drawback of the build) - swift hunter suffers a little from the level dips and feat usage to pump up the mount

You are now still more powerful at both archery and animal companion than a straight ranger

If you really want to optimize an animal companion all out, the best solution is probably just to be a druid (or) an ubermount

Someone posted me a sweet ubermount build a little while ago - if you want it I will dig it up

Edit - the choice to combine also limits the ACF choices - wildeshape ranger not a good fit with swift hunter

[Draz74]

Even if you're playing Core-Only spells, giving up spells for the spell-less variant isn't really worth it. It's almost worth it if you can use the better spell-less variant from Complete Champion.

But if even just Spell Compendium is allowed, then Ranger casting becomes quite awesome.

[brutticusforce]

Swift Hunter loses a minimum of 3 class levels, stunting an already stunted Animal Companion. Trade the Animal Companion out and get a Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) instead.

If your DM is nice, he might let you take the Light Cavalry acf (dragon magazine 346), let you activate skirmish while mounted, and let you take the Devoted Tracker feat, running off your Scout level rather than Paladin.

The more exotic a source, the more likely I expect the DM to say no. Is wild cohort in any of the books?


This really depends on the op level of your game - if you are not playing with a group of high-optimizers, then I would tend to say yes its workable

Actually, we aren't too terribly optimized. They know a few things about the game (for instance, the barb is taking power attack and extra rage) but it isnt too bad (for instance, hes going barb 20).

So blending Swift Hunter and Beastmast doesnt seem too terribly gimpy.


You are getting the swift hunter benefits and making up for your loss in advancing animal companion through level dips and feats (you definitely want to avoid wildshape ranger for a swift hunter, which is a major drawback of the build) - swift hunter suffers a little from the level dips and feat usage to pump up the mount

You are now still more powerful at both archery and animal companion than a straight ranger

This is all i wanted.


If you really want to optimize an animal companion all out, the best solution is probably just to be a druid (or) an ubermount

I want to avoid this if possible. We were discussing how good the druid was a few days ago, but they still labor under the idea that the druid is just as balanced as a fighter.


Someone posted me a sweet ubermount build a little while ago - if you want it I will dig it up

Pretty please?


Edit - the choice to combine also limits the ACF choices - wildeshape ranger not a good fit with swift hunter

Thats fine. Im probably already limited in my choices of AFCs anyways.

[hemming]

Even if you're playing Core-Only spells, giving up spells for the spell-less variant isn't really worth it. It's almost worth it if you can use the better spell-less variant from Complete Champion.

But if even just Spell Compendium is allowed, then Ranger casting becomes quite awesome.

What ranger variants give up spells?

Edit - just curious if there are more than one you know of

Here is a link to that ubermount thread (see Amphetryons posts to me): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17092738

[Rebel7284]

If you really want a powerful and flexible Ranger that can help fill any role in a pinch, go with this:

Mystic Ranger base class - DR#336 p.105
Shape-changing (UA, p 58): Gain wildshape as druid (small and medium animals only) and fast movement as barbarian. Lose combat styles.
Trap Expert (DS, p 12): Lose tracking. Gain trap finding, and disable device as a class skill.

At level 6 take Sword of the Arcane Order feat.

You have
- Wizard spells delayed one level up to 5th level spells.
- Wildshape for lots of utility.
- You can find traps.
- Full BAB (only simple weapon proficiency but that can be changed with a wise race choice or you can use a good simple weapon. :))

Of course this completely gives up both the archery and the animal companion angles you were looking at, but it's a super flexible character that can contribute in most situations.

You can also take a look at Arcane Hunter alternate class feature. Notice that at higher levels, more and more enemies cast spells or use SLAs. =)

[Nihilarian]

Edit - the choice to combine also limits the ACF choices - wildeshape ranger not a good fit with swift hunterWhy not? Seems a good fit to me.

[hemming]

Why not? Seems a good fit to me.

Totally debatable - but giving up the combat styles mean less free archery feats, which means a little less optimization of archery

Those feats aren't the greatest and wildshape is awesome, so yeah, debatable

[Nihilarian]

Totally debatable - but giving up the combat styles mean less free archery feats, which means a little less optimization of archery

Those feats aren't the greatest and wildshape is awesome, so yeah, debatableIf you're using Wild Shape you aren't going to use archery. If someone's too far away, you wild shape into a cheetah and charge him from 500 feet away. If they're flying you turn into a bird. Or you transform into a shape with pounce so you can get lots of Skirmish Damage.

Bestial Charge from Complete Champion can even give you pounce on any form you take for the round after you wild shape. Or you can take Lion's Charge from Spell Compendium.

This is before getting into what you can do with Wild Shape in general. I like 2 levels of Daggerspell Shaper, so your claws can be magic, or Warshaper, so you can change multiple times per wild shape, or you could go into MoMF.

[brutticusforce]

if i were to go Ranger (for the sake of argument) Ranger 10, Beast master 10, does my animal companion have an effective level of 13? would it be better to just start with the beast master companion, then continue leveling in ranger? (lets start there).

If so, would it be worth it to start in Ranger, take levels in scout until i meet Beast master prereqs, dip into beast master (~3 levels) and then finish out in ranger to reap the benefits of Swift hunter?

I dont intend to go wildshape. I have a sneaking suspicion the DM would smell cheese. not to mention it doesn't quite fit the character concept (This group pays attention to RP.)
He probably might smell cheese with this build, but I think he might allow it, as long as the feats are not culled from anywhere particularly weird.

[hemming]

Modeling out the combined build you are going for might look something like this:

1 Scout - you need 3 levels to qualify for swift hunter
2 Scout
3 Scout
4 ranger
5 ranger
6 ranger (swift hunter feat)
7 ranger
8 Beastmaster (need four levels of ranger to qualify or wild cohort)
9 ranger (natural bond)

Your animal companion level is: 3 (1/2 ranger levels rounded up) + 4 (Beastmaster bonus) + 3 (natural bond) = 10th level animal companion

You probably then want to keep on taking ranger to get the most out of your swift hunter

Edit: Nihilarian - I kind of just assumed he was looking for an archery build but yeah, you are 100% right about wildshape and skirmish. I've only built swift hunter ranged weapon characters and never really looked at it that way

[Svata]

Wow, two ranger threads today.

[brutticusforce]

Modeling out the combined build you are going for might look something like this:

1 Scout - you need 3 levels to qualify for swift hunter
2 Scout
3 Scout
4 ranger
5 ranger
6 ranger (swift hunter feat)
7 ranger
8 Beastmaster (need four levels of ranger to qualify or wild cohort)
9 ranger (natural bond)

Your animal companion level is: 3 (1/2 ranger levels rounded up) + 4 (Beastmaster bonus) + 3 (natural bond) = 10th level animal companion

You probably then want to keep on taking ranger to get the most out of your swift hunter


So thats probably about what I will do. The only thing I notice is that beast master doesnt have "animal companion" as a prerequisite. You just need Handle animal at 8 ranks, Survival at 4 and skill focus: handle animal.

So
Ranger
Ranger
Ranger
Scout
Scout
Scout
Beast master
Ranger X? While scooping up natural bond and swift hunter ASAP?

[hemming]

My bad on the Beastmaster prereqs - but yeah, you can get natural bond as soon as you get the effective druid levels from Beastmaster and get the swift hunter as early as 6th level

The only other feat req you have is the skill focus - so that leaves you probably with point blank shot and precise shot (if human) at the early levels

[Nihilarian]

So thats probably about what I will do. The only thing I notice is that beast master doesnt have "animal companion" as a prerequisite. You just need Handle animal at 8 ranks, Survival at 4 and skill focus: handle animal.

So
Ranger
Ranger
Ranger
Scout
Scout
Scout
Beast master
Ranger X? While scooping up natural bond and swift hunter ASAP?If you're already going ranger 3, there's no reason not to go ranger 4 and get another +2 effective druid levels.