Build Advice: Shock Trooper or Elusive Target?

[TheG]

Hi everyone! I'm just starting a new campign with a fighter (i never played it).

Allowed books are Core + Complete Warrior. My stats are str18 dex14 con14 10-10-10 the others.. race: Human.

Question #1: I''m for the charger build, but do you think that without the barbarian lion dip looses too much?

Question #2: i'm going with power attack - improved sunder - combat brute progression. In fashon to activate the damage multiplyier by combat brute i thought to move-charge every turn: (3m sep backwards [subject to AoO] then Power attack-charge [minimum 3m of charge: check]).

The question is: it's better doge-mobility-combat reflexes-elusive target to take advantage of provoking aoo [and tripping opponent] and then charge/powerattack the prone opponent (balancing out -6 to hit of powerattack with -4CA prone opponent and +2 to hit from charge) + gaining an extra attack for tripping the opponent + other defence tricks....

Or imrpoved bull rush + Shock Trooper (without damage bonus from dungeonchaser acf) to simply reroute power attack malus from "to-hit" to AC (-6 from PowerAttack -2 from Charge) and then have an higher chance of hitting but a terrible ac afterwards?

Question #3: is possible to jump-charge an opponent? [to avoid difficult terrain, the move action it's made by a 3mt linear jump]

Question #4: does jump+attacking opponent gives you the +1 to hit bonus for higher ground?

Thx for reading :D

[Snowbluff]

1: No.

2: Shocktrooper.

[OldTrees1]

Q1: Pounce is used to get a full attack at the end of your charge. This is more valuable as you get more and more attacks on a full attack. You could always take a dip in Barbarian.

Q2: How are you taking a 3m step back? If this is using the 5ft step mechanic, then you cannot move (charge) afterwards.

Q3: Yes. Jumping can be done as part of a charge. It explicitly is allowed to avoid obstacles but made no mention of difficult terrain.

[TheG]

1: No.

2: Shocktrooper.

Lol Thx :D, do you think it's a good idea to take doge and mobility to increase ac vs aoo to charge every turn?


Q1: Pounce is used to get a full attack at the end of your charge. This is more valuable as you get more and more attacks on a full attack. You could always take a dip in Barbarian.

Q2: How are you taking a 3m step back? If this is using the 5ft step mechanic, then you cannot move (charge) afterwards.

Q3: Yes. Jumping can be done as part of a charge. It explicitly is allowed to avoid obstacles but made no mention of difficult terrain.

unfortunately i can't take the barbarian dip 'cose complete champion book isn't allowed :( ... for now, with only 1 extra attack, could it be unecessary ?

with the 1.5 meters step i cant charge afterwards (as stated by the rules) but i can move for half my moving speed: 3mt (move action) and then charge


Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
[...]
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

[Fouredged Sword]

Nope, partial charges are only allowed if you are restricted from taking both a move and a standard action in your round, IE surprise rounds or when slowed. Having already taken a move action during a round does not trigger the clause.

[Crake]

if you get travel devotion, then for a minute each day you can spend a swift action to move up to your move speed, this will allow you to move back far enough to spend your full round action on a charge.

[Snowbluff]

Lol Thx :D, do you think it's a good idea to take doge and mobility to increase ac vs aoo to charge every turn? Nope. With Shocktrooper, your AC will be irreparably bad while charging.

[Theomniadept]

Trock Shooper OP.

No, seriously, add to your attack by subtracting from your near-useless AC, then once per round kill something that exists.

[hymer]

(3m sep backwards [subject to AoO] then Power attack-charge [minimum 3m of charge: check])

This doesn't work in 3.5, if I understood it correctly.
Charging is a full-round action, unless you are able to make partial charges due to having only one action (surprise rounds, zombies) in your turn. So if you use a move action to get away from someone, you can't then charge them without something like boots of the battle-charger. There's also a pair of sandals that lets you teleport 10' (which I presume is 3m in relation to the above) as a swift action, so you could then charge again. Both kinds of footwear have limited uses per day, though.

[OldTrees1]

unfortunately i can't take the barbarian dip 'cose complete champion book isn't allowed :( ... for now, with only 1 extra attack, could it be unecessary ?

It is not necessary however it does mean that your charger has too few attacks to do anything but damage.

I would consider the Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knock-down. This would give you a second attack if the first dealt at least 10 damage and if you succeed on your trip check.

[Nihilarian]

Your AC will be a lost cause. Go for a miss chance instead.

[TheG]

thx all of you fro the suggestions!

so,a little recap: in core + complete warrior (the book limitation i have) i can't charge (with Combat Brute+ Shock trooper combo) every turn... this is bad

so the average combat would be:

T1: Charge (Headless Charge) with -8 to AC for 2d6+6(18str)+12(6PowerAttack)= 25damage? then T2: full attack with Momentum swing -6to hit 2d6+6(18str)+12(6PowerAttack)+18(6 Momentum swing)= 43damage with low chanches of hitting?

it doesn't seem very powerful.. am i missing something?

[Fouredged Sword]

You are missing the damage multipliers that normally get added to a charger build. Valorous weapons and leap attack are standard. You may be caught with those out of book though. That is what pushes your damage into the 100s per swing.

[TheG]

You are missing the damage multipliers that normally get added to a charger build. Valorous weapons and leap attack are standard. You may be caught with those out of book though. That is what pushes your damage into the 100s per swing.

Haha now i see the difference.. too bad, i'll swithc to another fighter build :S Suggestions? Spiked Chain trip? Aoo build?

[Snowbluff]

Haha now i see the difference.. too bad, i'll swithc to another fighter build :S Suggestions? Spiked Chain trip? Aoo build?

*cough cough* (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) Show this to a certain someone.

Spiked Chain and AoO are compatible. Improved Trip Combat Reflexes Power Attack.

[Piggy Knowles]

The only really successful überchargers with that source list are going to be mounted chargers. A good charge build has to reduce its target to a fine red mist to really work - the restrictions on charging are such a pain that they're already forced to pick and choose targets based on who they can actually charge, and a Shock Trooper build that charges just to do moderate damage will get slaughtered in the rounds to follow. (A frenzied berserker can almost get there, but as that's one of my least favorite classes, I can't actually recommend it in good conscience.)

A mounted build, however, can make it work. They get enough multipliers in just Core and CWar to make their charges sufficiently deadly.

That said, the best mundane melee option in those books is probably bear warrior, though it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[TheG]

mhhh otherwise i could offset the power attack penality with improved trip:

Um: Combat Expertise
Lv1: Improved Trip
Ftr1: Power Attack
Ftr2; Improved Sunder
Lv3: Improved Bull Rush
Lv6: Shock Trooper
Ftr6: Combat Brute

T1: Power-attacking Charge to Sunder then trip then swing ( then AoO vs opponent [can i trip once more?])
T2: Full attack (power attacking) prone target



*cough cough* (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) Show this to a certain someone.

Spiked Chain and AoO are compatible. Improved Trip Combat Reflexes Power Attack.

for tripping build i should move 14 from con to int.. it's still an option however!

like this?

Um: Combat Expertise
Lv1: Improved Trip
Ftr1: Exotic Weapon prof. Spiked Chain
Ftr2: Power Attack
Lv3: Combat Reflexes
Lv6: Improved Sunder ?
Ftr6: Combat Brute ?

which one seems better?!

Thx for the tip on warblade but master it's quite severe on extra books.


The only really successful überchargers with that source list are going to be mounted chargers. A good charge build has to reduce its target to a fine red mist to really work - the restrictions on charging are such a pain that they're already forced to pick and choose targets based on who they can actually charge, and a Shock Trooper build that charges just to do moderate damage will get slaughtered in the rounds to follow. (A frenzied berserker can almost get there, but as that's one of my least favorite classes, I can't actually recommend it in good conscience.)

A mounted build, however, can make it work. They get enough multipliers in just Core and CWar to make their charges sufficiently deadly.

That said, the best mundane melee option in those books is probably bear warrior, though it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Indeed :) mounted combat it's awesome but less reilable ( dungeon with an horse?)

[Piggy Knowles]

A small character can ride a dog, which shouldn't have trouble traversing most dungeons. A gnome will have a lower Strength, of course, but an extra to-hit bonus from small size to compensate. Power Attack + Shock Trooper + lance + Spirited Charge + Deadly/Unstoppable Charge from a gnome off the back of a mastiff will smart, even if it doesn't hit the quadruple-digit totals of a full fledged pouncebarian.

[Fouredged Sword]

My core only charger build is actually a halfling cleric who rides a medium air elemental. It comes into it's own about level 9th level. The air domain is used to control the elemental. Nothing like a mount who cannot tire and has a 200ft perfect fly speed. Fly up and scout for the party, cross classing skill points into spot as needed.

Build
Halfling cleric 9, Air and Travel Domain
Feats
1st - Mounted Combat
3nd - Ride By Attack
6th - Spirited Charge
9th - Martial Weapon Prof (lance)

If you can take flaws, move the mounted combat feats forward and get power attack and start building towards combat brute.

Ride by attack is better than normal charging due to the fact that you can keep going, passing the target and ending up hundreds of feet past him, ready to charge again and safe from counterattack.

[NoACWarrior]

TG, If you still want to go the damage route even without Leap Attack (CAdv) giving you extra damage, I'd suggest a combo using shock trooper and Karmic Strike (CWar).

Using your math you'd get average 25 damage on the first charge attack, and declare karmic strike as active. When the opponent hits you you do an AoO using the same average 25 damage. With combat reflexes you are trading 100 damage with a dire bear every round.

One MAJOR weakness of AC reducing feats and class abilities (I'm looking at you Banzai Charge) is the inability to fight massive amounts of low CR creatures - say 20 Kobolds with crossbows. Turn 1 you probably will die if they auto target you.