Simple "Necromancer-like" builds?

[Scarey Nerd]

One of my players' character died, and she wants to play a Necromancer. I'd be fine with this, but the rest of the party are more on the good end of the spectrum, and in this universe Necromancy is Evil with a capital E, no exceptions. She's fine with that, but she still wants to play something along similar lines, so I need some ideas to through at her, though they can't be massively complicated since she's a pretty green player. Psionics, Dragon Magazine and Magic of Incarnum are not allowed.

The thought that came to me immediately was "Summon Monster" mage rather than raising the dead, but I'm not sure if she'll go for that. So do you have any suggestions?

[Ansem]

Dread Necromancer of Wee Jas, may only raise undead if they are willing to serve again, must treat the death with respect and only for the cause to aid others and vanguish those that descecrate undead or take unwilling lives.

[Sian]

depending on how the world looks, she could play a primitive cleric from a tribe for whom animating your ancestors to help protect you is accepted if not outright expected (think 1e Isle of Dread)

[Segev]

Druid is probably the best bet. It is mostly summoning-focused, which isn't as much fun for the minionmancer as are undead, but it still is a strong contender. And it starts with a minion: the animal companion.

Have her max out Animal Handling and Diplomacy and make good use of her Wild Empathy to capture/recruit and train animals to do her bidding. Let her be a "beast mistress" sort of character. Learn the Handle Animal rules well.

Feat-wise, consider Leadership (it gets you Followers, and you could easily justify this as more animals OR as some sort of primitive tribe of humanoids), and the cohort can complement the animal companion with some effort.

Augment Summoning and Greenbound Summoner will make her summons more potent, too, which can make up for the fact that they're temporary.

You could even consider replacing Wild Shape with Rebuke/Command Animals (and maybe magical beasts, too), but I don't think that's truly necessary with all the means she'll have to ensnare animal goodwill.

Remember, again, Handle Animal can be used to achieve a lot of control and cool tricks with any number of critters she can take the time to train.

[Rebel7284]

Why replace wildshape? 2 level dip into Contemplative = Extra domain slots and the ability to rebuke plants.

[Nihilarian]

How about Summon Undead, from Spell Compendium?

Edit: Alternatively, if a monster summoned from a Summon Monster template would have the fiendish or celestial template, let her use the Skeleton or Zombie template instead. Maybe another undead template, if you'd like.

[Segev]

As a question, when you say Necromancy is Always Capital-"E" Evil, what does that fully entail? Is this "no good person can tolerate the presence of anybody who has an undead minion," or is it just that you know that person isn't nice? Is this "evil I could work with if given a good reason and they are on their best behavior," or is it "this is grounds to murder them or run away if I can't murder them?"

[JusticeZero]

They ^ already asked my first question. My second question is "What about 'Necromancer' do they like? The evil, the minions, the darkety dark darkness of the spells, or what?

[Telonius]

Artificer would be my first thought, for creating minions, but that's a wickedly complicated one for a beginning player.

Hexblade has some of the debuffing things she might associate with being a Necromancer. It's not that powerful, but Tippy had a few suggestions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15404320&postcount=3) on how to make it into a solid tier 3.

[eggynack]

Druid is probably the best bet. It is mostly summoning-focused, which isn't as much fun for the minionmancer as are undead, but it still is a strong contender. And it starts with a minion: the animal companion.
And then ya blindside 'em by making the druid actually necromancy focused, with animate with the spirit (CV, 52), blackwater tentacle (Storm, 114), summoned yellow musk creepers (FF, 190) for plant zombies, summoned spore bats (FF, 161) for enervation rays, and round it all out with a bunch of cold, snow, and ice themed spells, aided by blood snow (Frost, 89). They'll never see it coming. Also, skip doing some weird wild shape trade for rebuke animals, and just do it the RAW way by picking up initiate of nature (PGtF, 81), which lets you rebuke animals and plants. Necro-druids are cool beans.

[Segev]

And then ya blindside 'em by making the druid actually necromancy focused

(...)

round it all out with a bunch of cold, snow, and ice themed spells, aided by blood snow (Frost, 89).

(...)

Necro-druids are cool beans.

I see what you did there.

[Blightedmarsh]

You got the necrocarnum soulmelds and necrocarnate PRC from master of incarnum.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/necrocarnate/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217064
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723

[Vaz]

Spell Thematics to make the Undead appear wholesome? Only raise 'spirits' or incorporeal ancestors?

A wood focused Wu Jen could use that to Spirit Bind followers; it gives a much more archaic feel. Spell Thematics (PGtF) could make it appear like you're binding with the woodland creature (Incorporeal Fey- wendigo is a relvant template here)

[Scarey Nerd]

Necromancy is seen as Evil, but it has a corrupting effect on the soul. Every time you raise a Dead spirit, you move further down the sliding slope.

She likes Necromancer because it's awesome and dark and broody. However, she also likes the idea of controlling minions. I'm having as much trouble with the brief as you can imagine :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Can you tell us a little more about how "sliding down the slippery slope" manifests?

[The Oni]

What one culture sees as "disrespecting the dead" another sees as "ancestor veneration."

To give you an idea of how a necromancer could be good: I had a character build once that was literally an intelligent halberd with class levels in Undead Lord Cleric so he could make an Undead Companion. The premise of him was that he was a Lawful Good artifact tasked by the god who made him to seek out the remains of warriors who died in disgrace, wrench them from the earth as intelligent undead, and set them on a path to redeem their souls.

He summons zombies regularly - lots of them. But these are not random footsoldiers conscripted for his purpose - rather, they are lost souls given a second chance. Functionally the class is no different (other than him being a spear and not a humanoid) but flavor-wise, he could hardly be considered a "minionmancer."

[eggynack]

She likes Necromancer because it's awesome and dark and broody. However, she also likes the idea of controlling minions. I'm having as much trouble with the brief as you can imagine :smalltongue:
In that case, maybe a malconvoker (CS, 48) would work. They do the whole dark, broody, dipping into the deep end of the alignment spectrum thing, and also the whole minionmancy thing, and also the having those minions be evil thing. Most importantly, they're necessarily non-evil. That seems like it could fit the character she's working towards pretty well.

[illyahr]

I had a Necromancer once who deeply venerated the dead. The "dead" however were the living souls, not the empty vessels they left behind. He saw no problem with animating empty husks as it is no different than casting animate object.

What he absolutely hated was anyone who stopped the natural cycle of souls (intelligent undead such as vampires and lichs) or anyone that tried to reverse the cycle of souls (raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection). Anyone who used these he viewed as evil. He had no problem with the Druid's reincarnate, though, as it didn't disrupt the cycle of souls, it moved it forward.

[Thanatosia]

I had a Necromancer once who deeply venerated the dead. The "dead" however were the living souls, not the empty vessels they left behind.
Considering they had an entire book dedicated to just the Undead, you'd think we'd have more concrete info on the mechanics of how Undead work soul-wise and what makes Necromancy Evil. Personally, if "undead" were just animating 'empty vessels' left behind after a person dies, I would see nothing inherently evil about animating zombies and skeletons..... but the fact that people who are animated as Zombies or Skeletons cannot be raised or resurected until said zombie or skeleton is destroyed very strongly implies there is a deeper connection between the soul and the corpse then just 'abandoned empty vessel', and it is this connection that makes Necromancy "Capital-E Evil". In some way Necromancy, even animating the mindless zombies and skeletons, is interfering with the Soul, probably returning it to and imprisoning it within the rotting vessel - and it's hard to spin this in any way but evil, ancestor veneration doesn't quite excuse it.

[Segev]

I've always wanted to make a Dread Necromancer/Dirgesinger combination, but it wasn't mechanically viable. The concept behind him might appeal, though, here:

Charming but shy, this youth was the sole survivor of a rather nasty plague in his village. It marked him, however; he has forever had something of the underworld about him. His tomb-tainted soul thrives on negative energies and is burned by positive, and his tendency to view the undead as "friends" is creepy. But he manages to pull it off while still being likable; it's hard to dislike somebody so nice and so eager for friends. Creepy somewhat becomes pitiable, instead.

For your setting, this same taint upon his soul means that it is actually each act of life-celebration that bends him more towards good, rather than each animation of a corpse bending him towards evil. The dead are his natural kin, despite him still having a foot in the world of the living. He commands and controls the undead but also yearns to please and be friends with the living. He isn't creepily fascinated by them, and may not even understand them to the level of more driven necromancers; to him, it is pure natural talent that he cannot deny and does not understand why he should have to deny.

If he could let go of his "sins" of goodness and kindness, he might be a terrifying necromaster whom the underworld would follow to a dark empire; as it is, he keeps turning away from that to seek to help the living, for he wants to be loved by them. IF the party will be his friends, his family, he might still be creepy in a sort of pitiable way, but he will keep being dragged into the light and will cling to goodness despite his dark powers.

[RedMage125]

Not to toot my own horn here, but...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335215
This is a "non-evil" necromancer idea that I came up with. Tiy with the class levels however you like, but running it as a straight Dread Necromancer is still within the guidelines of RAW.


Dread Necromancer of Wee Jas, may only raise undead if they are willing to serve again, must treat the death with respect and only for the cause to aid others and vanguish those that descecrate undead or take unwilling lives.

Have you read my thread? Sounds like my character. ;)

[Zetapup]

Necromancy is seen as Evil, but it has a corrupting effect on the soul. Every time you raise a Dead spirit, you move further down the sliding slope.

She likes Necromancer because it's awesome and dark and broody. However, she also likes the idea of controlling minions. I'm having as much trouble with the brief as you can imagine :smalltongue:

If raising spirits is the problem, they could just go cleric or bard and cast animate objects on corpses they encounter :smalltongue:

I'd second Malconvoker, if they're going for a dark and broody minionmancer. That's exactly what the Malconvoker is.

[Telonius]

Dark and broody classes (at least off the top of my head):

Hexblade
Warlock
Shadowcaster

Beguiler could work, too; as could a Cleric of a Death deity, or a Wizard/Sorcerer with appropriate spell selection. Malconvoker is a great idea, too.

Here's a build I put together for a Bard/Dirgesinger, level 16. He's meant as a collaborator to a necromancer. It might (or might not) be helpful. (Stats are houseruled, and I have houserules to make half-elves not completely suck, but it should give you an idea of where to build it).

Half-Elf Dirgesinger Bard6/Dirgesinger1-4/Bard7-12

Str 18, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 24

1 Tomb-Tainted Soul
3 Melodic Casting
6 Requiem (Music affects undead for half normal duration
9 Haunting Melody (spend 1 music to cause Shaken in all enemies in 30 ft, Will DC 10+1/2 Bard lvl + Cha)
12 Lingering Song
15 Daunting Presence (Std action to Awe one opponent, Will DC 10+1/2character level+Cha, shaken 10 minutes)

BAB +12/7/2
Attacks: +1 Profane Harmonizing Rapier: 12(bab)+4(str)+1(magic)=+17/12/7
Damage: 1d6+4(str)+1(magic)+1d6(profane)*=1d6+1d6+5
*heals 5hp damage on each hit, up to 50hp/day

AC: 10+3(dex)+5(armor)+3(magic)=21
HP 16d6+96=158

Fort 5+6=11
Ref 9+3=12
Will 12+2=14

Bardic Music 16/day
*affects living for performance+10 rounds, affects undead for performance+5 rounds
Inspire Courage: +2 morale bonus on attack, damage, and saves vs charm and fear
Inspire Competence: +2 competence on skill checks
Inspire Greatness: single ally, +2 HD (d10), +1 competence on Fort saves
Song of Sorrow: Enemies take –2 Will and –2 attack. WillNeg, DC 29. Mind-affecting.
Song of Bolstering: Undead within 30 ft gain turn resistance 16 for 20 rounds (resistance 20 if bagpipes)
Song of Grief: Target is Confused for 10 rounds. WillNeg, DC 29. Enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting.
Song of Horror: Enemies within 60ft take 1d6 Str and 1d6 Dex damage. WillNeg, DC 29.

Spellcasting:
0 (DC 17): 3/day, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Summon Instrument, Ghost Sound, Lullaby, Daze
1 (DC 18): 5/day, Cause Fear, Hideous Laughter, Sleep, Unseen Servant
2 (DC 19): 5/day, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Scare, Silence
3 (DC 20): 5/day, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Deep Slumber, Gaseous Form
4 (DC 21): 3/day, Greater Invisibility, Hold Monster, Shout

Relevant skills:
Perform(Wind): 19(ranks)+7(cha)+2(MW)+3(circlet)=+31
Perform(Sing): 19(ranks)+7(cha)+2(rapier)+3(circlet)=+31
Tumble: 19(ranks)+4(dex)+2(synergy)=+25
UMD: 19(ranks)+7(cha)+3(circlet)=+29

Greater Crystal of Lifedrinking (3000gp) heal 5 damage on each hit, up to 50/day
+1 Profane (+1) Harmonizing (+1) Rapier (18,000gp). Profane: +1d6 vs living, Harmonizing +2 perform (sing) and continues Bardic Music for 10 rounds.
+3 Breastplate (9350 gp)
Bagpipes of the Damned (3000gp) +4 to turn resistance for 10 rounds, +2 perform(wind)(MW)
Wand of Restoration (10 charges remaining) (5200gp)
Wand of Inflict Serious Wounds (20 charges remaining) (3d8+5)(4500gp)
2 Scrolls of Harm (2250gp each) CL 15 = 150hp
Circlet of Persuasion (4500gp)
Cloak of Charisma +4 (16000gp)
Amulet of Health +4 (16000gp)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (4000gp)

[gorfnab]

How about a Nightstalker from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon? It gets a lot of divination spells, some healing spells, and a decent amount of skills. It also gets a good chuck of necromancy spells, rebuking, and ghost cohorts. However it is easily fluffed to be one who can communicate with departed spirits and sense their presence. Basically you could play it as a medium who talks with the dead or play it as a TAPS ghost hunter type character.