Cleric or Paladin, melee, 3.5, limited books

[ramunch]

So I want to play a melee oriented holy warrior, having healing early is nice but even a paladin' LOH will suffice. However 3.5 paladin's seem a bit weak compared to clerics, sure you get better BAB but that's made up with in spells.

So opinions/suggestions... Here is the framework you have to play in:

Books: PHB, PHB II, DMG, DMG2, All the complete X's. I prefer to use the original base classes but that is only a preference not a requirement.
Dieties/Domains: available are based on Greyhawk (as described in PHB, PHB II, and Complete Divine etc)

Stats (rolled through some jacked means my DM wanted us to use): 16, 15, 15, 12, 12, 11

I like the look of Ordain Champion, but DM has ruled has to be taken as is (so Hextor or Heironious) since it was meant for greyhawk and we are in greyhawk.

Without UA and Ravenloft not sure it's worth trying to pull off DMM:Persist.

I'm not looking for a super optimized cause my DM to hate his life build, but definitely something on the upper end of the power scale.

[Snowbluff]

The answer is Domain feats. Complete Champion. :smallsmile:

[Nihilarian]

Do you not want to worship Heironeous? Do you have a god in mind?

[Stoneback]

Absolutely. Cloistered cleric, drop all three domains for domain feats. Divine Metamagic is a must. The Time domain (I think) gives you Extend Spell and then you can take persistent spell- all day buffs.

Nightsticks, reliquary holy symbols, and charisma items are your friend.

Even with the crappy BAB, you can buff yourself up to be as good as a paladin in combat.

You can even go crossbow with Zen Archery.

Clerics can be as good as fighters (and paladins) in combat by about 7th level.

EDIT: it's the PLANNING domain that gives you Extend Spell. Time gives Improved Initiative.

[Segev]

No UA, huh? There goes my suggestion of Prestige Paladin.

Take a look at Pathfinder's Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) class; your DM may not allow it as it's out of your list of allowed books, but it actually is a very good re-working of the class.

[Firechanter]

DMM Persist Cleric is a very strong option for a melee Cleric, but you should not attempt to stack Nightsticks since you do not want to invoke the DM's wrath. Without lots of cheese you'll be able to DMM persist 2, at most 3 spells.

[ramunch]

The answer is Domain feats. Complete Champion. :smallsmile:
Are there any that seem to stand out as better than others? Should I drop all of my domains or keep at least one just because I have the domain spell slot?


Do you not want to worship Heironeous? Do you have a god in mind? I'm not opposed to worshiping Heironeous, just wish his weapon wasn't a long sword. :-) I prefer two hand weapons since there isn't much advantage in having a free hand. I'm only opposed to evil gods. Outside of that I'm not too picky. I like Kord probably the best out of the ones in the PHB


Absolutely. Cloistered cleric, drop all three domains for domain feats. Divine Metamagic is a must. The Time domain (I think) gives you Extend Spell and then you can take persistent spell- all day buffs.

Nightsticks, reliquary holy symbols, and charisma items are your friend.

Even with the crappy BAB, you can buff yourself up to be as good as a paladin in combat.

You can even go crossbow with Zen Archery.

Clerics can be as good as fighters (and paladins) in combat by about 7th level.

EDIT: it's the PLANNING domain that gives you Extend Spell. Time gives Improved Initiative.
Yeah too bad basically everything you mentioned isnt' in the allowed books.
Cloistered Cleric - Unearthed Arcana
Nightsticks - Libris Mortis

Without cloistered cleric and nightsticks the DMM persist route seems less appealing unless i'm missing something.

[Nihilarian]

Technically speaking you don't have to use a longsword, I don't think. You're getting the weapon focus for free from the war domain, so just ignore it and pick up a greatsword instead.

Edit: Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion are pretty good.

[Snowbluff]

Are there any that seem to stand out as better than others? Should I drop all of my domains or keep at least one just because I have the domain spell slot?

Knowledge Devotion is good, like he said. Cloistered Clerics can trade out knowledge for it. Travel is good for full attacks.

Trickery is strictly the best one. At level 15, it retains all of your abilities and weapons.

Water Devotion is good for lower levels. Chaos/Law devotion can drastically improve your attack or AC for the duration. Sun Devotion absolutely destroys undead. Death Devotion is an instant kill at lower levels. Healing Devotion is good for low level healing, and can save your life. Animal Devotion is really versatile, and is kind of like a rage, or level 1 flight.

[Nihilarian]

Knowledge Devotion is good, like he said. Cloistered Clerics can trade out knowledge for it. Travel is good for full attacks.

Trickery is strictly the best one. At level 15, it retains all of your abilities and weapons.

Water Devotion is good for lower levels. Chaos/Law devotion can drastically improve your attack or AC for the duration. Sun Devotion absolutely destroys undead. Death Devotion is an instant kill at lower levels. Healing Devotion is good for low level healing, and can save your life. Animal Devotion is really versatile, and is kind of like a rage, or level 1 flight.Trickery Devotion was errata'd. Also, he can't use Cloistered Cleric.

[Snowbluff]

Trickery Devotion was errata'd. Also, he can't use Cloistered Cleric.

Eh, it's still the best.

I know he can't use cloistered cleric, but I was pointing out one of the reasons Knowledge Devotion is common on clerics. :smalltongue:

Oh, and you should keep a domain to use the domain slots.

[Segev]

I believe you CAN technically use one-handed weapons in two hands if you want; it gives you the str-and-a-half to damage and everything.

[ramunch]

is it worth going DMM since I don't have access to the easy ways to pick up Extra Turning (undeath domain) and extend spell (time devotion) and night sticks.

The way I figure it going for DDM with what i have available looks like
level 1: Extend Spell, Persist Spell
level 3: extra turning
level 6 DMM: Persist


so it's level 6 before it comes online, which isn't bad, but then I have 3+3(cha)+4(ET) = 10 TUs, so I can persist one spell and have 4 attempts left which could be used for devotion feats though 4 attempts isn't going to fuel many uses.

would i be better doing something like
Human Cleric Heirounious (to go OC, cause it seems good)
war domain
level1: Extra Turning, Law Devotion (dropping Law Domain), some other feat?


Also if I drop a domain for the devotion feat do I still need to meet the prereqs of the feat? I ask because in complete divine Heironious is given Inquisition domain and in CC it says that corresponds to Knowledge as far as devotion feats go. however Knowledge Devotion has a 5 rank any knowledge pre req which I wouldn't be able to get until level 2. Seems wacky to allow them to swap out for domains but put pre-reqs on them.

[Eldariel]

is it worth going DMM since I don't have access to the easy ways to pick up Extra Turning (undeath domain) and extend spell (time devotion) and night sticks.

The way I figure it going for DDM with what i have available looks like
level 1: Extend Spell, Persist Spell
level 3: extra turning
level 6 DMM: Persist


so it's level 6 before it comes online, which isn't bad, but then I have 3+3(cha)+4(ET) = 10 TUs, so I can persist one spell and have 4 attempts left which could be used for devotion feats though 4 attempts isn't going to fuel many uses.

Honestly, that seems okay. Head for Church Inquisitor, pick Knowledge Devotion for Inquisition Domain if that interests you, go from there. Contemplative on 10. You can walk around with Persistent Divine Power, for instance, which is already pretty nice (+6 Str and full BAB and some Temp HP). You can use non-Persistent buffs like Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment on next level, since you have Complete Divine but no Spell Compendium you have access to Hours/level Spikes, it's a good life.

Ordained Champion probably has bigger payoff right on this level tho since you don't really need Divine Power with it as it gives you full BAB -1. Your sources lack a natural class to continue with after the class finishes tho so if the campaign goes to level 10, you'll be forced to switch back to Cleric or another PRC. It's still strong but just something to keep in mind.


Middle-Aged Human
14 Str (15-1), 10 Dex (11-1), 14 Con (15-1), 13 Int (12+1), 18 Wis (16 + 1 Age + Level), 13 Cha (12+1)

Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 3
1: Extend Spell
H: Persistent Spell
3: DMM: Persistent Spell
6: Extra Turning

If desired, you can trade Domains for e.g. Law Devotion, which is nice. Persist Divine Power daily. Use Spikes daily, Extended if desired. Other than that, make use of smaller buffs, Divine Favor is nice if you catch someone by surprise, you can add on Silence. On next level, you can start using Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment and thereafter you can get Extra Turning and a second persistent spell (e.g. Vigorous Circle, Righteous Might or whatever).

Also, once you can afford Rod of Extend Spell, get one (you could actually possibly start with one, it's only 11000gp, which is a bit over half of your WBL). That practically doubles the number of spells you can Persist since you can use the Rod of Extend the Persistent spell which makes it last 48 hours allowing you to keep them up for two days. On level 9 you'd have 4 spells Persistent this way (I recommend e.g. Recitation, Mass Lesser Vigor or some such).


Assuming you get a Rod of Extend and persist Recitation, you're looking at:
20 Strength (+6 enhancement)
10 Dexterity
14 Constitution (+Divine Power Temp HP)
13 Intelligence
18 Wisdom (20 if you buy a +2 item)
13 Charisma

Club (could be a wooden Mace, Quarterstaff or whatever too)
7 BAB + 5 Strength + 2 weapon + 3 Luck (+5 more Sacred when using Law Devotion) = +17/+12 to hit, 19-20/x2 Crit

1d6+5 Str+2 weapon+7 Spikes = 1d6+14


So total +17/+12 for 1d6+14 19-20/x2 Crit. Nothing amazing but it's certainly passable. You could two-hand a weapon for a bit more but ultimately that makes little difference until you get Power Attack. There are some spells that enable you to do a bit of more damage too IIRC.

You can also wear a Plate and a Heavy Shield for some AC if you feel so inclined; pump it further if that suits you. Magic Vestment is again available tho it's one level until it really begins to take onto itself.

Your saves are 4+1 Base + 2 Con + 3 Luck = +10 Fort, 1+1 Base + 0 Dex + 3 Luck = +5 Ref & 4 + 3 Base + 5 Wis + 3 Luck = +14 Will. Possible to add a Cloak of Resistance +1 or +2 or some such too; I don't remember if the Resistance-line spells are in your listed sources but if they are, that's another source.

So:
+10 Fort
+5 Ref
+14 Will

Not horrid. You can also have 8+4.5*6 + 2*7 = 49 HP and 7 Temp HP. You can further pump your Con of course, if desired.

EDIT: Knowledge Devotion could of course be tacked on top. And no, you shouldn't need to meet any prerequisites for Devotions if you get them through means other than picking them; otherwise picking them on level 1 would be impossible.

[sjeshin]

So I want to play a melee oriented holy warrior, having healing early is nice but even a paladin' LOH will suffice. However 3.5 paladin's seem a bit weak compared to clerics, sure you get better BAB but that's made up with in spells.

So opinions/suggestions... Here is the framework you have to play in:

Books: PHB, PHB II, DMG, DMG2, All the complete X's. I prefer to use the original base classes but that is only a preference not a requirement.
Dieties/Domains: available are based on Greyhawk (as described in PHB, PHB II, and Complete Divine etc)

Stats (rolled through some jacked means my DM wanted us to use): 16, 15, 15, 12, 12, 11

I like the look of Ordain Champion, but DM has ruled has to be taken as is (so Hextor or Heironious) since it was meant for greyhawk and we are in greyhawk.

Without UA and Ravenloft not sure it's worth trying to pull off DMM:Persist.

I'm not looking for a super optimized cause my DM to hate his life build, but definitely something on the upper end of the power scale.

DMM is not that hard to optimize into but it will mean focusing almost completely on it. With DMM you can persist divine power for +6 str AND full BAB all day, persist lesser holy transformation for flight and +2 strength that stacks with divine power, and then take travel devotion. You can have a really high charisma score, be a human, and take extra turning after you get power attack and the other feats. If the spell compendium isn't allowed I don't know what this world is coming to, but if it IS, you take the planning and undeath domains as a cleric that studies and destroys undead to rid the world of it's filth. (And you get extend spell feat for free, and four more turn undead attempts.) Ok, so no spell compendium. Still, if you want to be a high powered melee character, but not hyper optimized, you could do the following:
cleric 3 /church inquisitor 5 Travel domain and Destruction domain

You give up travel domain for travel devotion, and use destruction domain for smiting once a day for even more damage. Travel devotion won't really become awesome until you hit lvl 7 and persist divine power. This will allow you to move then full attack, something that every melee character wants. When you hit lvls 4 and 8 put the points into charisma. At level 9 you could take extra turning or simply be happy with your +6 str and full BAB all day, and look into dispeling / counterspelling fun. As a church inquisitor, you get lots of goodies melees want, like dispelling other ppl's buffs, immunity to mind controlling spells and effects from finger wigglers, and the ability to see through illusions. You don't need a god, but a goal to destroy all undead and rid the world of them. The lawful good organization will be up to the DM, but this allows you to be a melee that is short of ubercharger, but you also still have full casting. As long as you can keep travel domain, it doesn't hurt to get rid of destruction to make the backround and setting mesh with your lawful goodliness. This build doesn't on it's own let you use anything better than a heavy mace, but you can wield it in two hands to make power attack still be saucey. Getting full BAB all day is in my opinion the best thing you can do for a melee character that doesn't have it naturally.

str 15
dex 11
con 12
int 12
wis 15
cha 16

feats
human extend spell
travel domain loss travel devotion
lvl1 persist spell
lvl3 power attack
lvl6 divine metamagic persist

[Rebel7284]

is it worth going DMM since I don't have access to the easy ways to pick up Extra Turning (undeath domain) and extend spell (time devotion) and night sticks.

The way I figure it going for DDM with what i have available looks like
level 1: Extend Spell, Persist Spell
level 3: extra turning
level 6 DMM: Persist


Why not swap the level 3 and level 6 feat to get DMM earlier? RAW, if you cast Eagle's Splendor in the beginning of the day, you get extra turn attempts and can use that to persist a spell. To be fair, most of the best spells to persist are third and fourth level spells anyway.

[ramunch]

Why not swap the level 3 and level 6 feat to get DMM earlier? RAW, if you cast Eagle's Splendor in the beginning of the day, you get extra turn attempts and can use that to persist a spell. To be fair, most of the best spells to persist are third and fourth level spells anyway.

Because I am thinking of worshiping Heironious and taking Law Devotion in replacement for Law Domain. Since the spells I'd look at persisting aren't until 3rd level cleric spells (5th level cleric). I'd suck it up for one level using by base turn attempts to power Law Devotion, then take DMM at 6 once I have more 3rd level spells to persist. But I can see doing it either way.


DMM is not that hard to optimize into but it will mean focusing almost completely on it. With DMM you can persist divine power for +6 str AND full BAB all day, persist lesser holy transformation for flight and +2 strength that stacks with divine power, and then take travel devotion. You can have a really high charisma score, be a human, and take extra turning after you get power attack and the other feats. If the spell compendium isn't allowed I don't know what this world is coming to, but if it IS, you take the planning and undeath domains as a cleric that studies and destroys undead to rid the world of it's filth. (And you get extend spell feat for free, and four more turn undead attempts.) Ok, so no spell compendium. Still, if you want to be a high powered melee character, but not hyper optimized, you could do the following:
cleric 3 /church inquisitor 5 Travel domain and Destruction domain

You give up travel domain for travel devotion, and use destruction domain for smiting once a day for even more damage. Travel devotion won't really become awesome until you hit lvl 7 and persist divine power. This will allow you to move then full attack, something that every melee character wants. When you hit lvls 4 and 8 put the points into charisma. At level 9 you could take extra turning or simply be happy with your +6 str and full BAB all day, and look into dispeling / counterspelling fun. As a church inquisitor, you get lots of goodies melees want, like dispelling other ppl's buffs, immunity to mind controlling spells and effects from finger wigglers, and the ability to see through illusions. You don't need a god, but a goal to destroy all undead and rid the world of them. The lawful good organization will be up to the DM, but this allows you to be a melee that is short of ubercharger, but you also still have full casting. As long as you can keep travel domain, it doesn't hurt to get rid of destruction to make the backround and setting mesh with your lawful goodliness. This build doesn't on it's own let you use anything better than a heavy mace, but you can wield it in two hands to make power attack still be saucey. Getting full BAB all day is in my opinion the best thing you can do for a melee character that doesn't have it naturally.

str 15
dex 11
con 12
int 12
wis 15
cha 16

feats
human extend spell
travel domain loss travel devotion
lvl1 persist spell
lvl3 power attack
lvl6 divine metamagic persist




So do you think that taking travel devotion/X domain and going something like Church Inquisitor or Conteplative is better than going for Ordained Champion early. OC seems pretty amazing with being able to swift channel flamestrikes.


Honestly, that seems okay. Head for Church Inquisitor, pick Knowledge Devotion for Inquisition Domain if that interests you, go from there. Contemplative on 10. You can walk around with Persistent Divine Power, for instance, which is already pretty nice (+6 Str and full BAB and some Temp HP). You can use non-Persistent buffs like Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment on next level, since you have Complete Divine but no Spell Compendium you have access to Hours/level Spikes, it's a good life.

Ordained Champion probably has bigger payoff right on this level tho since you don't really need Divine Power with it as it gives you full BAB -1. Your sources lack a natural class to continue with after the class finishes tho so if the campaign goes to level 10, you'll be forced to switch back to Cleric or another PRC. It's still strong but just something to keep in mind.


Middle-Aged Human
14 Str (15-1), 10 Dex (11-1), 14 Con (15-1), 13 Int (12+1), 18 Wis (16 + 1 Age + Level), 13 Cha (12+1)

Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 3
1: Extend Spell
H: Persistent Spell
3: DMM: Persistent Spell
6: Extra Turning

If desired, you can trade Domains for e.g. Law Devotion, which is nice. Persist Divine Power daily. Use Spikes daily, Extended if desired. Other than that, make use of smaller buffs, Divine Favor is nice if you catch someone by surprise, you can add on Silence. On next level, you can start using Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment and thereafter you can get Extra Turning and a second persistent spell (e.g. Vigorous Circle, Righteous Might or whatever).

Also, once you can afford Rod of Extend Spell, get one (you could actually possibly start with one, it's only 11000gp, which is a bit over half of your WBL). That practically doubles the number of spells you can Persist since you can use the Rod of Extend the Persistent spell which makes it last 48 hours allowing you to keep them up for two days. On level 9 you'd have 4 spells Persistent this way (I recommend e.g. Recitation, Mass Lesser Vigor or some such).


Assuming you get a Rod of Extend and persist Recitation, you're looking at:
20 Strength (+6 enhancement)
10 Dexterity
14 Constitution (+Divine Power Temp HP)
13 Intelligence
18 Wisdom (20 if you buy a +2 item)
13 Charisma

Club (could be a wooden Mace, Quarterstaff or whatever too)
7 BAB + 5 Strength + 2 weapon + 3 Luck (+5 more Sacred when using Law Devotion) = +17/+12 to hit, 19-20/x2 Crit

1d6+5 Str+2 weapon+7 Spikes = 1d6+14


So total +17/+12 for 1d6+14 19-20/x2 Crit. Nothing amazing but it's certainly passable. You could two-hand a weapon for a bit more but ultimately that makes little difference until you get Power Attack. There are some spells that enable you to do a bit of more damage too IIRC.

You can also wear a Plate and a Heavy Shield for some AC if you feel so inclined; pump it further if that suits you. Magic Vestment is again available tho it's one level until it really begins to take onto itself.

Your saves are 4+1 Base + 2 Con + 3 Luck = +10 Fort, 1+1 Base + 0 Dex + 3 Luck = +5 Ref & 4 + 3 Base + 5 Wis + 3 Luck = +14 Will. Possible to add a Cloak of Resistance +1 or +2 or some such too; I don't remember if the Resistance-line spells are in your listed sources but if they are, that's another source.

So:
+10 Fort
+5 Ref
+14 Will

Not horrid. You can also have 8+4.5*6 + 2*7 = 49 HP and 7 Temp HP. You can further pump your Con of course, if desired.

EDIT: Knowledge Devotion could of course be tacked on top. And no, you shouldn't need to meet any prerequisites for Devotions if you get them through means other than picking them; otherwise picking them on level 1 would be impossible.

So it seems the general consensus is even if I can only power 1 maybe 2 DMM persist it's still a pretty strong option.

Ah D&D so many options and they all seem pretty solid, so hard. I really like the idea of OC but really like the travel devotion power too!

[Gwendol]

I'm not sure it is, since it costs feats. Clerics tend to be decent combatants even when not fully buffed.
OC is a nice PrC, but simply going straight cleric isn't exactly a weak choice.