Eldritch Theurge Sha'ir

[BornValyrian]

In a game coming up soon, I've decided to try Sha'ir into Eldritch theurge and/or disciple. We are starting at 2 and I just want to make sure I've got a solid build and strategy.

I want to do Theurge first. I'll have to take a level of Sacred Exorcist to get the disciple.

My build as it stands is:

Human Sha'ir 1/Warlock 1 (CG)
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14 (need this for skill reqs)
Wis 12
Cha 16

Feats: Nymph's kiss, Able Learner

I'm concerned with invocation and spell choice. I narrowed my first invocation down to Entropic Warding and Spider Climb.

I want to do more battlefield control, so if anybody could suggest low-level spells for that, that would be awesome. I have Eldritch blast for offensive purposes, as well as a thing to do when my gen is fetching a spell.

So I guess that's what I'm looking for: Which Invocation, Spell suggestions, future feat choices, and other advice?

[Snowbluff]

I like Frightening Blast or shatter on my Warlocks.

[BornValyrian]

I've heard those are great. I just thought some passive defense would be nice to combat my AC 12. But at-will shatter might be a good defense in its own right... Hmm.

Any other ideas?

[malonkey1]

I've heard those are great. I just thought some passive defense would be nice to combat my AC 12. But at-will shatter might be a good defense in its own right... Hmm.

Any other ideas?

Well, I'm unfamiliar with the Sha'ir class. Would you kindly explain its mechanics?

[BornValyrian]

Sha'ir (from dragon compendium) are CHA-based full casters with a rather unique way of gaining spells. They send their familiar (which looks like a mini-genie) to the elemental planes to bargain for each spell. The Sha'ir makes a DC 20 Diplomacy check (with modifiers based on Sha'ir level, spell level, whether its "known" or not, and whether or not its divine). They draw their spells "known" (which is really a more easily retrieved list) from the sorcerer/wizard list, and also get a number of divine domain spells. A sha'ir can ask for any spell on its known list or any that they have identified via spellcraft, the unknown ones simply take longer.

In short, they are considered both arcane and divine, and can ask for any spell they've seen, but generally draw from ones they know, since its easier to ask for and arrives faster.

[Doc_Maynot]

Depending on your DM's ruling of how spontaneous of casters they are considered Versatile Spellcaster, and Arcane Preparation are valuable feats for a Sha'ir.

[Psyren]

Well, I'm unfamiliar with the Sha'ir class. Would you kindly explain its mechanics?

I did a one-post summary of how they work here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13429667#post13429667) if that might help you.

And yes, from both a fluff and crunch standpoint they are dynamite with Warlocks - one of my favorite builds for a warlock outside of the Ur-Lock.

[BornValyrian]

Depending on your DM's ruling of how spontaneous of casters they are considered Versatile Spellcaster, and Arcane Preparation are valuable feats for a Sha'ir.

I've heard arguments both for and against their use with sha'ir, and I tend to lie on the side of not being able to do it, unless I have a build with practical spellcaster on it, in which case I fight for it to work :smallbiggrin:


I did a one-post summary of how they work here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13429667#post13429667) if that might help you.

And yes, from both a fluff and crunch standpoint they are dynamite with Warlocks - one of my favorite builds for a warlock outside of the Ur-Lock.

I think I saw that post, and it sums it up pretty well. Any advice on the build?

[Snowbluff]

I've heard those are great. I just thought some passive defense would be nice to combat my AC 12. But at-will shatter might be a good defense in its own right... Hmm.

Any other ideas?

Sha'ir can't Turn, right? A cleric dip would help. Pick up some devotions. Devotions are niiiiiice.

There's also a handbook in my extended signature that I am curating. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455)

[Psyren]

He's already dipping SE for the turning. Though you could also just use the Eldritch Disciple adaptation on CM 56 instead.



I think I saw that post, and it sums it up pretty well. Any advice on the build?

I'd dump Wis to try and get that Cha higher, since all your classes have a good will save anyway. Also, your first invocation should probably be Beguiling Influence, that will be a huge help to your gen.

[BornValyrian]

Sha'ir can't Turn, right? A cleric dip would help. Pick up some devotions. Devotions are niiiiiice.

There's also a handbook in my extended signature that I am curating. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455)

They cannot turn. I was planning on dipping sacred exorcist, though if I go cleric/cloistered cleric I can get into eldritch disciple quickly. I just hate slowing my spell acquisition, especially at low levels.

I've seen that handbook as well. Its got good stuff, though sometimes looking at handbooks I feel like there's too many right options. It narrows it down but then I say "These are both good options, what now?"

Edit: My DM isn't waiving the turning as the adaptation section prescribes. Beguiling Influence was another one I thought of, so I might do that.

[Cog]

If you're okay with shuffling your feats, you can get Turn Undead without dipping. From Dragon Compendium, there's Undead Necromantic Bloodline and Kin Mastery. It's only once per day without Extra Turning or nightsticks, but has the side benefit of giving you more spells known, which can be handy for a Sha'ir.

[Psyren]

There is no undead bloodline, did you mean Necromantic?

Putting aside the wonky wording there (it's unclear whether that bloodline actually has "undead ancestors" as opposed to merely being descended from necromancers who got a little too close to their work) - Sha'irs are prepared casters and so won't qualify for bloodlines without an additional dip or trick.

[Cog]

There is no undead bloodline, did you mean Necromantic?
Yup. Fixed.


Putting aside the wonky wording there (it's unclear whether that bloodline actually has "undead ancestors" as opposed to merely being descended from necromancers who got a little too close to their work)...
"One of your ancestors was an undead creature or..." seems pretty plain to me. On the other hand, an ability to Turn specialist wizards would be kind of amusing in its own right.


Sha'irs are prepared casters and so won't qualify for bloodlines without an additional dip or trick.
My read on it is that Sha'ir are not natively spontaneous casters or prepared casters. Any ability that requires you to be one of those is something they have trouble with, but an ability that requires you to not be one of those (like the Bloodlines) is easy.

[HunterOfJello]

Isn't there a caveat in the text about Sha'ir that pretty much forces them to remain in their base class instead of going into PrCs? I forget what it was, but I remember reading something like that when I was considering building one a while back.

[Doc_Maynot]

Isn't there a caveat in the text about Sha'ir that pretty much forces them to remain in their base class instead of going into PrCs? I forget what it was, but I remember reading something like that when I was considering building one a while back.

It is the fact that the spells they ask for are retained for a number of hours equal to one's Sha'ir level.

[Psyren]

Whether it forces them or not is a matter of DM interpretation. Basically the spells drain out of their heads after hours/level, and the DM has to decide whether that means the slots are expended (wasted) or still open for the gen to refill so long as you did not cast anything out of them.

The latter is the much more reasonable interpretation, and once you hit Sha'ir 4 your spells will stay in your head all day with just two trips by the gen.


Indeed, having too many levels in Sha'ir can actually hurt your flexibility because they have no way of voluntarily emptying these slots without expending them.

[Doc_Maynot]

Whether it forces them or not is a matter of DM interpretation. Basically the spells drain out of their heads after hours/level, and the DM has to decide whether that means the slots are expended (wasted) or still open for the gen to refill so long as you did not cast anything out of them.

The latter is the much more reasonable interpretation, and once you hit Sha'ir 4 your spells will stay in your head all day with just two trips by the gen.


Indeed, having too many levels in Sha'ir can actually hurt your flexibility because they have no way of voluntarily emptying these slots without expending them.

Just for clarifications sake, he is referring to the bold line.


Spells retrieved by the gen remain available to the sha'ir to cast for 1 hour per sha'ir level. If a spell is not used within that time, the power to cast the spell dissipates harmlessly.

That entire mechanic is the reason I hope my DMs consider them spontaneous enough for versatile spellcaster and arcane preparation. They are basically necessary for them to be somewhat workable IMO. They are fine without the feats, just... if I had a choice I'd use them.

[Psyren]

They are prepared casters; the fact that they can (and indeed must) re-prepare throughout the day if they don't cast anything does not make them spontaneous, any more than a wizard who leaves slots open to prepare additional spells as needed could be considered "spontaneous."

[Cog]

Sha'ir do not prepare spells in the game-mechanical sense. Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells) preparation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#preparingDivineSpells) is consistently described as a meditative act requiring concentration, while all a Sha'ir has to do is call up his buddy and say the name of the spell; he can do anything else he likes meanwhile. Then there's this bit: "Once retrieved, a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell..." instead of simply saying it is a prepared spell.

You could argue that Sha'ir prepare spells in the plain English sense of the word, but any Sorcerer who uses a Ready Action to cast a spell would meet that definition as well, so it's not particularly useful.

[Thurbane]

You can get Turn/Rebuke undead with the Necromantic Bloodline feat plus Kin Mastery feat, both in the Dragon Magazine Compendium.

It only gets one use, but you can get feats like Extra Turning, or Nightsticks.

[Psyren]

Sha'ir do not prepare spells in the game-mechanical sense. Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells) preparation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#preparingDivineSpells) is consistently described as a meditative act requiring concentration, while all a Sha'ir has to do is call up his buddy and say the name of the spell; he can do anything else he likes meanwhile. Then there's this bit: "Once retrieved, a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell..." instead of simply saying it is a prepared spell.

But that's exactly why they're prepared casters - they must ready each spell individually like a wizard does. If a Sha'ir has 3 3rd-level spells per day, and wants to cast 3 fireballs, he needs to send his gen out to get each one. Compare to a sorcerer or psion, who know a set of spells/powers of a certain level and then have a separate "uses/day" mechanic allowing them to cast multiples of that spell up to their limit.

[Waker]

Gotta agree with Psyren. While the Sha'ir may seem kinda spontaneous since they have such an odd spells known/casting mechanic, they are unambiguously prepared casters.
You could make the Sha'ir count as spontaneous so you can nab the bloodline feat by taking Alacritous Cogitation.

[Doc_Maynot]

Alright so with Alacritous Cogitation, would they then be spontaneous enough to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Preparation? :smallconfused:

[Snowbluff]

Alright so with Alacritous Cogitation, would they then be spontaneous enough to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Preparation? :smallconfused:

You just answered your own question.

[Cog]

But that's exactly why they're prepared casters - they must ready each spell individually like a wizard does. If a Sha'ir has 3 3rd-level spells per day, and wants to cast 3 fireballs, he needs to send his gen out to get each one.
I've pointed that out, yeah. He doesn't need to prepare them, though. Even divine prepared casters don't merely ask for their spells, but need to meditate to ready their spells, just as wizards do. The basic magic rules describe what 'preparing spells' means, and sha'ir just plain don't do that, and lack any text saying that what they do instead still counts as that for game purposes.


Compare to a sorcerer or psion, who know a set of spells/powers of a certain level and then have a separate "uses/day" mechanic allowing them to cast multiples of that spell up to their limit.
That's exactly right. Sha'ir are not spontaneous casters, which I said right off. Meldshapers aren't spontaneous spellcasters, shadowcasters aren't, and martial initiators aren't. In none of those cases does that make them prepared casters. It's the same situation for the sha'ir: they have a new, non-core mechanic that has parallels to other versions of spellcasting simply because it is still actual spellcasting.