Reasons for non-tippy

[Karoht]

This thread is not intended in any way to bash Tippyverse, call it over powered, or anything like that. Nor am I looking for ways to break or prevent Tippy.

If we assume that Tippyverse is the logical outcome of a world that has full casters, what are the potential justifications for a given DnD world that has full casters in it to not already be Tippyverse? DM Fiat and certain spells being banned notwithstanding.

To rephrase the question slightly...
If the tools for Tippyverse already exist within the setting, and the setting is non-Tippy, I'm looking for justifications on why that might be.

IE-In campaign setting, there are wizards, they are firmly in control, magic is a widely accepted thing. Yet this world is not (yet?) Tippy. Why?

"Haven't thought of it"
Unlikely but possible.

"Certain spells don't exist yet"
Smells like DM banning spells, maybe not.

"Magic is still very new"
Like above but feels less like DM fiat. Possible.

"Certain magic doesn't work (because reasons)"
Like above two but potentially more interesting. Depends on story reasons.
Examples include Teleportation and Summoning not working because space is all spacy wacy and time being all timey wimey.

"It's about to be Tippyverse but the players don't know it yet."
Possibly fun. Possible for player party to make Tippyverse happen instead of an NPC in the setting. Possible for player party to stop Tippyverse (because reasons) or perhaps usurp power at the last minute.

"Tippyverse is mostly Arcane stuff, world is dominated by ToB Schools and Churches, Arcane/Psionics is actively sought out and destroyed"
Now we're getting somewhere, not sure if this stands up to scrutiny.

"Gods actively stop Tippyverse from happening."
DM Fiat maybe. Possibilities exist for a fun story involving somehow tricking the gods or getting out from under their oppression, other gods want Tippyverse to happen (because reasons) etc.

"It already happened, it's just going on behind the scenes or on (relatively) small scales and in isolated areas."
Potentially interesting. Pockets of Tippy rather than global Tippy. A good story can take place here with only minor complications to the DM or players.

Any other justifications we can come up with? Apart from rule zero and other things like it?

***DISCLAIMER***
This is not a knock against Tippyverse or a means to prevent it/dismantle it, merely an attempt to discuss in-setting reasons why Tippyverse hasn't emerged yet or why one can't/has difficulty doing so. This is also not a knock at anyone who has used any of the above justifications to prevent Tippy. DM Fiat/Rule Zero is in my opinion perfectly valid in the right circumstances.
Again, I'm looking for creative justifications for why this has not yet taken place, assuming all the tools exist within the setting.

[MadGreenSon]

Ah! This is a question I've already answered for my still-being-designed Nethril game.

"The Archwizards like things as they are and actively block attempts to go too far toward Tippyverseness"

Yeah, it's because those who can, don't want to.

[ZamielVanWeber]

People don't reach high enough levels to access the magic necessary to get the tippy verse started.

Also, as a DM, you can create a setting. Altering spells/classes/etc are perfectly part of your world building rights. Just be consistent.

[DeltaEmil]

Ah! This is a question I've already answered for my still-being-designed Nethril game.

"The Archwizards like things as they are and actively block attempts to go too far toward Tippyverseness"

Yeah, it's because those who can, don't want to.Netheril was a Tippyverse with 2nd edition rules that went down literally when one of their brilliant minds decided to be the new god of magic (and now you can speculate if Mystril really did save the Weave as she and her church claimed, or if she actually sabotaged Karsus's attempt at controlling it so that it would fail and she would be hailed as the savior of the world - until she dies for the next edition-realms-shattering-event). It had magic teleportation circles, flying cities, mythals that granted eternal youth and health and kept dragons and elves out (and those mythals were only garbage products they had to rely upon when their nether scrolls were stolen by gnomes and elves). In the Forgotten Realms, the only reason there is no Tippyverse is because Mystra or Mystril or whatever that thing calls itself died again when the newest D&D edition happened.

[Metahuman1]

More Powerful Races, Fiends, Demon's, Dragons, Higher Caliber Fey, maybe Inevitable's, are actively blocking it form happening by what ever means necessary, cause it endangers there spots at top dogs.

[MadGreenSon]

Netheril was a Tippyverse with 2nd edition rules that went down literally when one of their brilliant minds decided to be the new god of magic (and now you can speculate if Mystril really did save the Weave as she and her church claimed, or if she actually sabotaged Karsus's attempt at controlling it so that it would fail and she would be hailed as the savior of the world - until she dies for the next edition-realms-shattering-event). It had magic teleportation circles, flying cities, mythals that granted eternal youth and health and kept dragons and elves out (and those mythals were only garbage products they had to rely upon when their nether scrolls were stolen by gnomes and elves). In the Forgotten Realms, the only reason there is no Tippyverse is because Mystra or Mystril or whatever that thing calls itself died again when the newest D&D edition happened.

Yeah, it is a tippyverse to an extent, but only to the point where doing so does not inconvenience those in charge. Almost all of the great stuff that the majority of Netherese enjoy is the side effects of the happy-funtimes of the ruling class.

Or at least that's how I'm gonna run it.

[toapat]

in Faerun's case, it pretty much is gods meddling with reality


in a more realistic sense, its actually more logical when you try to look at it from the perspective of exactly when was the last time a cleric or wizard went to the market for Food.

How many wizards do you see in the books with a decent Profession (Merchant) or Knowledge (Economics) check

[Karoht]

The 'wizards keep it down' angle is pretty good.
"If I can't have it, neither can you" and it would be a pretty long and uphill battle really. Long enough to potentially justify the delay of Tippy for probably a few hundred years or so at a time.

'Other races keep it down' is interesting as well.

Most of the best reasoning seems to boil down to 'X party or parties keep it down.'

The justification that the NPC's don't get high enough level doesn't work for me personally. I just don't enjoy that one.

I'm noticing that a combination of effects is probably going to be the best, and a combination of forces 'keeping it down' all with different motivations, is sounding solid. Sprinkle in some in-setting politics and other distractions, the justification is starting to reach near 1000 years, maybe more. I'm digging it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

People don't reach high enough levels to access the magic necessary to get the tippy verse started.

Also, as a DM, you can create a setting. Altering spells/classes/etc are perfectly part of your world building rights. Just be consistent.

[Threadnaught]

Dragon Age: Origins. Nuff said :smallcool:

Oh, okay fine, I'll elaborate. In DA:O the Casters are most often kept locked away in their tower, constantly being watched and regulated. If one steps out of line, bam! They die. If ten of them step out of line, they all die.

The Mages in DA:O aren't even close to a fraction of a single Tippy Wizard, but the methods for preventing Abominations from existing, could be applied against the Wizards in D&D with some success.

[Fouredged Sword]

The universe is not intended to change that drastically. This is enforced by the universal force of Law that retards all serious change to the world. It just enforces this one rather... vigorously.

I think it should go something like this.

"Hey guys, I just had a cool idea. We could all get together and and cast teleportation circle a bunch of times and then we... um... guys... is that a nigh infinite army of Inevitables planeshifting over us? Maybe I should rethink this plan a bit."

Also, self resetting traps should have charges like a wand. 50 shots and it's done. You should pay multiple times for expensive components as well. That solves the beneficial trap problem as well. Now, I am all for them having a discount compared to a wand, with enough charges to make them last for their value, but no unlimited magic.

[georgie_leech]

A pretty simple one is that Tippyverse assumes that, for whatever reason, the deities are mostly silent and/or non-operative. The ability for gods to meddle and mess around with what mortals attempt to do makes Tippyverse quite a bit less likely.

[ace rooster]

The magic system does not have to be hugely nerfed to make "tippy behavior"* impossible. If permanancy is read in the same way that RL "unbreakable" items are, (ie:effectively permanent with reasonable use) then abuses become impossible. If a "permanent" teleportation circle is actually good for 10000 uses, and is being used 100 times a day, it is going to need recast every 3 months, preventing tippy type use, while not being a limit in most other cases. Even if automatic custom traps are allowed (not a given, and dealt with on a case by case), there is no reason to assume they do not need refueled occasionally. If an automatic trap is actually only fueled with 50 charges, mostly you would not notice, but it would prevent abuses (make them behave like automatic wands).

You may call this changing the rules, but it is more like the DM adjudicating the behavior of effects in extreme circumstances, when the stated rules break down (because of magic, or common sense). Part of the DMs job is deciding where the rules break down. An example is the assumption that players can always find a buyer for any item, which is usually reasonable. If players are trying to sell thousands of 10ft poles made from ladders, it is entirely reasonable for the DM to say the rule breaks down, and that they cannot find a buyer after the first 20. This is also why spellcasters cannot just sell all their spell slots for a few days, and craft earns less than when you are making something.

*I say "tippy behavior" because I disagree with tippy's assessment of the consequences of teleportation circles being common, never mind the problems with using divine magic industrially, but that isn't relevant.

[jedipotter]

If the tools for Tippyverse already exist within the setting, and the setting is non-Tippy, I'm looking for justifications on why that might be.



The big reason is the Game Mentality vs Fictional Mindset. A Tippyverse assumes a world created just now with no history. Or, in other words, a Game World. And the rules say everything exists and everyone knows about them. So you start on day 1 of year 1 with everything in the rule book. Now the Fictional mindset is a bit more like a fantasy story. When was magic invented or discovered? What is the history of magic? When was each spell discovered? And so on. In a non game world, it would have taken years to get every spell and item and such made.


And related to this is the Basement Guy. It is easy to say, sitting in a basement, that you'd do things like ''enslave everyone with mind control'' or ''eat magicaly made food'' or ''create anything I want out of thin air''. And maybe Basement Guy might even mean it, who knows? But most people want much more out of life. You would know everything is fake and not real and is only done by your power. It would be a very hollow existence. You could charm everyone in the city to say your a nice guy, heck you can even manipulate space and time too. And you can sit back and smile as all say your a nice guy. But then it is all false, as your in control. Most ''real'' people would not want to live in that world.

[Zweisteine]

There are a lot of reasons this might happen. The most obvious is a lack of high-enough-level casters, or divine intervention.

The gods probably don't want that to happen, because it could hurt worship of many of their numbers. For example, the worship of Obad-Hai would likely suffer in a world living almost entirely in cities.

Another good reason, is this: Even if there are high-level casters, they probably won't think of something like the Tippyverse. High level casters are usually rare, and they aren't usually economists. The characters who would think of this sort of thing are not the adventuring type, and everyone knows that adventuring is the speed track to power. Even in a world with many high-level characters, for every one who wants to make a supereconomy, there is one who wants to bring it down and keep a monopoly on power.

The biggest reason, I'd say is the tradition of the land. As I noted above, someone raised in a medieval-like society won't usually think of something like replacing trade caravans with teleportation circles. Even when they do, something might prevent them from acting on the idea. A good caster might see the potential benefits, but they'd also be smart enough to realize that their enemies would notice, and likely start wars, as did in the canonical history of the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007). An evil/neutral caster might think to rig a teleportation circle and sell its use, but... Well, that might actually lead to the Tippyverse, unless someone good thinks it's a bad idea and intervenes. More likely, I'd say, is that someone would resent the prices, or the out-of-business traders would rebel and destroy the circle, but that isn't always going to happen. Hmmm...

[toapat]

never mind the problems with using divine magic industrially, but that isn't relevant.

considering the glitch with extra spell involving wizards, scrolls, and retraining the feat, Create Food and Water might as well be a wizard spell because of its shear convenience for the omnipotent wizards.

Wizards are also not typically depicted in a way that would lend itself to learning how to apply teleportation circle in an economically beneficial matter, and the Tippyverse relies on 3 things:

Application of Teleportation circle in Mercantile trades (requires Knowledge (Economics) or Profession (Merchant)). Wizards are typically tutored by other, more experienced wizards from a young age, and while the source of a Wizard in Tower's income is never really mentioned, the most likely income they have is a Retainer's Tithe by the local government and the occational wards + sigils.

Advancement and Deployment of Combat Drones: only Eberron allows for Golems as cheaply and numerous as is needed to maintain the required threat level to cause the dense urbanization.

Restabilization and Rapid Advancement of Society due to Removal of the Necessity of Supply lines: The easiest, and hardest part of the entire tippyverse. This is why the tippyverse doesnt actually function when taken in logic of the experiences and respective fields of expertise of wizards. Only one Wish Trap needs to be created, and it is used to create a superior wish trap used to mass produce wish traps. Those traps are then used to create the numerous other traps which allow the Tippyverse to function. Thing is, of all the spells needed in those different traps, Only one critical spell is not a Wizard spell, and any given wizard may not know that Create Food and water exists. But this phase also heavily relies on the assumption that the wizards running the Sociopolitical change of the world have a combined reasonable Merchant or Economics check.

[The Oni]

Tippyverse requires a level of sociopathic detachment from life in a given world that is impossible for most people living in that world, but more possible for those living outside of it (as in, our real world). If you got enough like-thinking, high-level Wizards in one place and agreeing to work together then Tippyverse could happen; otherwise no.

[BWR]

Tippyverse levels of power and optimization would ruin the future so the Guardians of Time mess around with stuff. Some gentle paradox manipulation and things work fine.
Alternatively, the Oards don't want the Tippyverse to happen so always mess up any caster who would have started it.

Or constant messing with teleportation and gates and whatnot causes reality to go a little soft and 'things' start bleeding through the TP circles.

[Blightedmarsh]

You got to remember one thing; tippyverse is dependent on the casters.

Despite there mastery of magic these men and women may or may not have:

A) An understanding of socio economics
B) A working knowledge of strategy
C) The ability or willingness to cooperate at any level.
D) Any real understanding of actual people
E) The work ethic and determination to achieve and maintain this.
F) Any desire to have anything to do with the ignorant and smelly masses.

[MadGreenSon]

Also, the Kingdom of Galifar in Eberron was probably most of the way there before the Last War broke out and pretty much ruined the chances for quite awhile, having wiped out the highest level casters and artificers over a century of grinding magical warfare.

At this point, they're going to be lucky if they survive the next round of the War (it's not over, it's paused, even the setting material says so) without getting "scorched earth via dragon horde".

I'd say it's off the table for Eberron for awhile.

[Beldar]

I've read a couple threads about Tippyverse, and, despite things like permanent Teleportation Circles, massive numbers of constructs, powerful casters etc, I'd say the key to it all is permanent auto-resetting magical traps supplying all your needs.
Without those you don't get the City vs Countryside split, where those in the city are under the protection of powerful mages and those out in the countryside are on their own vs monsters etc with no support.

Anyway, I believe that Non Tippyverse worlds are not Tippy because Tippy is not the inevitability it claims to be.
In fact Tippy is pretty unlikely to start & very unlikely to keep going. It's self-destruction is built-in.
Why would a high-powered mage bother setting up all those magic things (Teleportation Circles and magic traps for necessities etc) for anybody but himself, and possibly a small group of elites in his service?
Power?
Ludicrous.
He gets no power from masses of citizens. Not in any way that is meaningful at the levels of power he is already at.
1000 1st level warriors is mere target practice for even a moderate level wizard. Having lots of warriors in his army does him no good.

Ok, granted there are some sickos out there who get their jollies from dominating other people. But that's just a few, certainly not all, of the population. So we can assume that only a few wizards are motivated by such things. They may bother with supporting large numbers of people nearby, but most would not.

But that's is an "oh yah, also this" argument.
The main argument is this:
Provide everything to folks & they tend to lose all motivation.
This is not speculation - this is fact.
I read a lot of history & pretty much every time folks get everything they want and no longer need to work for their support, they quickly degenerate into useless sponges. The citizens of a Tippyverse city (apart from the rare few that stay motivated no matter what) would almost universally achieve nothing at all & be interested only in their own entertainment. And that drive to keep themselves entertained gets more and more extreme over time.
Such a citizenry is no asset to anyone.
And, as bored & dissipated citizens very often do, they'd go further & further to extremes to keep themselves entertained. Eventually this would result in them destroying their own neighborhoods & cities.

"success can test one's mettle as surely as the strongest adversary."

Tippy cities will rot pretty quickly. Even the casters may get sucked into the destructive disspiation they've created in their society. Some will, some won't.

So even if a mage did invest a lot of time & effort in magic traps providing necessities & similar things for masses of citizens, after the first one (or 2-3 for real diehards) rotted & self-destructed, he'd likely give up and just go live in a tower by himself with his elite minions.

Also
Those cultures outside Tippy cities will be facing monsters - any that survive will be strong. They will be gaining xp frequently, merely thru day to day survival.
Either they have been wiped out, or they are pretty tough.

And when cultures of tough outsiders see nearby cities filled with soft dissipated weak citizens, they tend to take them over.
Sure, a high-level mage can stop incoming hordes of level 3-4 barbarians and preserve his town. But at what point does he decide it isn't worth it anymore - that his citizens are a good-for-nothing drain on his resources & that he needs to cut that anchor free, remove that distraction from his life, & get on with some serious magic research (or whatever else he is interested in)?

Once the wizard gets tired of useless citizens and leaves, the barbarians sweep in & take over. Every time that happens, much is destroyed or lost. A few wars later & there are few surviving treasures from the Tippyverse-type of city.

And suddenly, we find ourselves back in a classic D&D or fantasy setting: Stories of powerful times, long ago, when magic was everywhere. A few remaining magical items, plus rumors of more buried in tombs & forgotten dungeons. What casters there are tend to live in towers, away from society & do their own thing. And most folks live ordinary lives very similar to that of Medieval folks.

TL;DR
If there was a Tippyverse, it rotted to death since the citizens had no motivation to do anything.

[Duke of Urrel]

Tippyverse requires a level of sociopathic detachment from life in a given world that is impossible for most people living in that world, but more possible for those living outside of it (as in, our real world). If you got enough like-thinking, high-level Wizards in one place and agreeing to work together then Tippyverse could happen; otherwise no.

My explanation for why the Tippyverse doesn't just happen is related to this, only simpler. The greatest enemy wizards have is other wizards. Wizards not only tend toward nerdiness and introversion, they can also be of any possible alignment. Therefore, they don't co-operate well enough to run the world by magic. They're too busy trying to destroy other wizards, or at least to defend themselves against other wizards who are trying to destroy them.

And if wizards don't much like each other, we can argue even more strongly that clerics and druids don't much care for them either. Moreover, clerics and druids also have opposing alignments and antagonistic cultures, so that they don't co-operate with each other much better than wizards do. Therefore, the Tippyverse fails to materialize because of a total lack of peaceful co-operation among the few talented individuals who are capable of making it happen.

[VoxRationis]

I find myself agreeing with several arguments previously posted:
1: Gods might intervene to prevent this kind of ridiculousness from happening.
2: Wizards would have to show an uncharacteristic level of interest in the day-to-day goings on of ordinary mortals to create a Tippyverse.
3: You have to have large numbers of high-level wizards in the first place. This is not necessarily a given.
4: Magic might not be infinite in every setting; it's possible that the magical spells in the PHB completely obey the laws of thermodynamics, but shunt the heat and entropy effects elsewhere, such that it's not noticeable, but only if there isn't a lot of magic happening. This limitation would come down HARD on a setting like that.
5: Related to the above, it is possible that things described "permanent" in D&D really mean "finite but unlikely to run out in the usage assumed by the PHB." I once ran an adventure where a 15000-year-old temple had numerous enchantments failing or beginning to fail due to its sheer age. As pointed out by a previous poster, it's possible that teleportation circle just has a very large number of charges, and that large-scale usage of them would wear the spell out.
6: The setting assumes a modern-scale distribution of knowledge. Wizards can, with study, learn every trick in the books. This is not necessarily true. Magic is power, and people are therefore discouraged from sharing its knowledge indiscriminately. Furthermore, the state of magical research has not necessarily reached the requirements for a Tippyverse in any given setting.
7: As the above poster mentioned, a situation wherein no one has to work for ANYTHING will almost assuredly fail sooner or later. Even if the populace didn't tear itself apart in an urge to do SOMETHING, there would be no incentive to become a high-level caster (why dedicate your life to learning how to cast wish if there's an automatic wish dispenser on the street corner?), so after a generation (maybe a couple, if the wizard caste makes use of planar time trait shenanigans), everyone would just be living off magical machinery built by their forefathers, which is a recipe for collapse if ever I've seen one. And even if they don't collapse, the populace may well just waste away in luxury, with no desire to even replace themselves (why have children to support you in your old age if you'll be supported anyway?). This latter happened to a precursor civilization that reached near (but not quite) Tippyverse levels in one of my campaign settings.
8: Magic is not necessarily 100% reliable; this is RAW, as a matter of fact, because of the large and vicious section in the DMG about cursed magic items. Sometimes enchantments don't take well, or begin to fail after age and abuse. This, combined with #7, would cause a catastrophic failure.

That said, I don't think "People just don't think of this stuff" is a valid argument. You don't need to be an econ major to understand that abuse of an item that grants infinite wishes will create a post-scarcity society, or that you can revolutionize travel by creating a network of teleportation circles. And wizards are really, really, intelligent. They would think of the possibility of setting something like this up. They just might not think of it as possible (due to the above reasons) or desirable.

[HunterOfJello]

1. There are no real powerful casters around so people just make do with the magic that they already have access to and can use readily. (Eberron)

2. There are powerful spellcasters that intentionally avoid interaction with the entire world except to destroy spellcasters that hit a certain level of power. (Eberron)

3. The world used to be a tippyverse, but is currently in a collapsed state after someone ****ed it up. (Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, most settings)

4. The setting is being constantly manipulated and altered by a large number of highly active gods who generally interfere with any one group succeeding at building a powerful enough magical organization that spans more than a single empire. (Forgotten Realms)

5. A tippyverse does exist, but you're stuck in some section of the multiverse that doesn't have direct access to it. Too bad for you. (Ravenloft)

6. The world currently exists in a pre-tippyverse state and is primordial enough that no one has established the first tippysociety yet. If you have 1 wizard and 1 other prepared spellcaster in your party, then your group will likely end up creating the tippyverse.

7. Inevitables, Devils, or some other powerful group of outsiders are actively disrupting any attempts at building a tippysociety. They have their own reasons for doing so and will have to be eliminated by a non-tippyverse grown band of adventurers first.

8. Your world is a tippyverse, but due to the fact that you and all of your comrades are a band of ignorant and idiotic murder hobos who hate rolling knowledge checks, you have yet to realize this fact. You sail around the world blissfully in a magical airship while ignorant of what the real world is actually like.

9. Pun-Pun doesn't like tippyverses and uses Epic level magic to regularly dismantle creative teleportation circle uses and remove all memories of them from characters minds.

[Fouredged Sword]

9, ah 9. Yea old "A scale covered arm reaches out from infinity and smacks you upside the head. You suddenly reconsider your choice of actions and decide to leave the setting alone."

[Windstorm]

I personally favor what VoxRationis described as the thermodynamics effect. all magic has a price, and significantly powerful magics can be the cause of large chages elsewhere. at least in my current setting, the world has some capacity for flexibility, but only so much, and large scale uses or abuses of power are the source of such places as the deepest frostfell or the scorching deserts and huge sandstorms therein.

I'm also not a fan of infinite duration permanency effects. something has to be fueling that magic unless its exclusively reactive in nature, and whatever power stone (or other appropriate thing) used will run out of gas eventually.

gods and the inability of high level casters to work together without rancor also has something to do with it.

[toapat]

9, ah 9. Yea old "A scale covered arm reaches out from infinity and smacks you upside the head. You suddenly reconsider your choice of actions and decide to leave the setting alone."

your quote should end like this:

You reconsider your choice of actions and decide to leave the world alone, as your rocket through the upper atmosphere and off into space

[Slipperychicken]

"Certain spells don't exist yet"
Smells like DM banning spells, maybe not.

"Magic is still very new"
Like above but feels less like DM fiat. Possible.

It could be analogous to real world technological advancement: As I understand it, steam power was around since Roman times, but nobody put it to work until thousands of years later. Like countless other innovations, it needed to go through many adaptations and had to wait until it was economically viable for people to consider using it.

[Skysaber]

7: As the above poster mentioned, a situation wherein no one has to work for ANYTHING will almost assuredly fail sooner or later. Even if the populace didn't tear itself apart in an urge to do SOMETHING, there would be no incentive to become a high-level caster (why dedicate your life to learning how to cast wish if there's an automatic wish dispenser on the street corner?), so after a generation (maybe a couple, if the wizard caste makes use of planar time trait shenanigans), everyone would just be living off magical machinery built by their forefathers, which is a recipe for collapse if ever I've seen one. And even if they don't collapse, the populace may well just waste away in luxury

This. Most emphatically this.

Becoming a 17th level anything represents the culmination of a powerful lot of work, drive and dedication. But let's suppose you do it anyway. In a standard D&D environment that makes you the big cheese, a person of importance, someone both respected and feared.

In a Tippyverse? You just got your diploma as a caster of 9th level spells and the first thing that's going to happen is you being barraged with complaints about, "Well, my Wish trap makes everything in all the wrong colors of blue. Fix it."

Congratulations. You've shouldered all of that heavy burden of study, research, toil and hard work in order to become this society's Fix-It man. You are the guy everyone goes to in order to get broken stuff fixed, adjusted or new ones installed.

You are now their janitor.

Everyone I know who has worked in the service industry has complained about how mind-boggling bad it is to deal with ignorant people having no idea how complicated or difficult it is catering to their demands. Spoiled, selfish, people who don't know and don't want to know how much hard work it is fulfill their latest whims just wash you under with their endless demands, then raise a fuss over how you aren't doing it properly, or fast enough, and how you really ought to do it over again to get it right this time.

Maddening, and that's people today, most of whom have to work for a living so have some idea of cost per benefit.

People in a Tippyverse would be worse, spoiled to a degree unimaginable, and acting even more like arrogant, bratty children towards those doing the work to keep them comfortable.

Honestly, who'd want to be a 20th level caster if it meant volunteering to put up with that?

[Fouredged Sword]

Steam power existed in the roman times, but it existed in a form that barely worked, and didn't produce much power at all. The metallurgy didn't exist until after Europe had a few more centuries of making armor tough enough to take a lance to the chest for them to make metals that could take the pressure of a high pressure steam engine.

The Romans where good, but their metal was brittle and expensive, and their labor was cheep. Steam wouldn't rise until the British where faces with a glut of iron and coal, and a plague ravaged labor force that needed a labor multiplier.

[Larkas]

I think that Tippyverse is very reliant on the benevolence of its mage-rulers. Benevolence is not a given for any dictator, and you could just as easily have Marcus Aurelius as have Nero as a ruler.

Besides, the political game would be a lot more "interesting" with 9th-level spells on the table.


Honestly, who'd want to be a 20th level caster if it meant volunteering to put up with that?

That's a great recipe for disaster, considering that you, the "janitor", can unmake these lazy buns' reality with a waving of your hands and a few choice words.

[Windstorm]

sounds like what pilots have to put up with today skysaber. all of that training and dedication, only to be paid a barely livable wage and used as a convenient scapegoat for systemic issues when they occur, unless you're up the food chain somewhere.

[Skysaber]

That's a great recipe for disaster, considering that you, the "janitor", can unmake these lazy buns' reality with a waving of your hands and a few choice words.

And these people care?

It's a recipe for disaster to tick off your computer tech, your accountant or even to a limited extent your hairdresser. They can mess you up but good, and in the first two cases you may not ever know it.

Doesn't stop people from doing it all of the time. Once you have become "the Help" they are superior to you in every way - or so they insist in their tiny little arrogant minds.

Besides, they all know the other mages and golems will keep you in line. Why do they assume that? Because societies always work that way. And all of those golems were built to solve problems and protect these morons, so if you become a problem they will deal with you.

Having built those golem police forces, you are now bound to obey them just like anyone else is. They are built to enforce the law, and since society can't exist without 20th level minions working on keeping everything functioning, laws would state that's what you've got to do.

So back to work with you. I'm certain there is a teapot out there somewhere that is not enchanted enough yet.

Don't worry. Your daily Mindrape will ensure that you enjoy your job.

[Sir Chuckles]

I like the idea that, eventually, some Eldrich horror pops up a few generations after everything is in full motion and destroys much of the world, largely focused on the parts that are Tippyverse, due to the ultra-concentration of food/victims/big buildings that are fun to smash.

When that guy settles down, what's left is a standard low fantasy setting, and eventually cycles back into Tippyverse, only to be eaten once more.
Those who do not wish for a Tippysetting, invoke the Tippythulu, and thus the Tippycycle is begins anew.

I, personally, go further and say that an Overdiety, usually one of a long-lived or racial memory based (Aboleths) race actively prevents certain Tippyverse key factors, as they were tired of everyone getting eaten.

[Slipperychicken]

That's a great recipe for disaster, considering that you, the "janitor", can unmake these lazy buns' reality with a waving of your hands and a few choice words.

If anything, I imagine that high-level fullcasters would be more analogous to analysts: trained professionals who can earn quite a living crafting things, working on spell research, casting the occasional spell themselves, instructing lower-level magicians, or doing consulting work for the oligarchs.

Warlocks would probably be the equivalent of plumbers or electricians, using their relatively meager craft skill and UMD to repair people's appliances while the "real" casters did better things with their time.



I, personally, go further and say that an Overdiety, usually one of a long-lived or racial memory based (Aboleths) race actively prevents certain Tippyverse key factors, as they were tired of everyone getting eaten.

Maybe Steve farms adventurers (partly) to try to prevent the high-level casters necessary for the Tippyverse.

[Larkas]

--snip--

And where's all the astral body + genesis-created demiplane shenanigans in all that? :smallbiggrin:


--snip--

Hmmm... Experts could fill that role as well. Still, it drives home the idea that, if the "real" casters tire of that society, their leaving would make things fall apart.

[toapat]

And where's all the astral body + genesis-created demiplane shenanigans in all that? :smallbiggrin:



Hmmm... Experts could fill that role as well. Still, it drives home the idea that, if the "real" casters tire of that society, their leaving would make things fall apart.

The tippyverse, once opperational, doesnt need a single caster. the Wish traps are used to make other wish traps.

[Skysaber]

And where's all the astral body + genesis-created demiplane shenanigans in all that? :smallbiggrin:

Means nothing when they can Wish you back to your job, freshly Mindraped and ready for work again.

Tippyverse is all about making the most extremely high level magic available to anyone. But if that's the case, there is no longer anything special about you, the high level caster, and so they the common people can use all of that magic you've made available to oppress you.


Hmmm... Experts could fill that role as well. Still, it drives home the idea that, if the "real" casters tire of that society, their leaving would make things fall apart.

Experts can cast 9th level spells to create new Tippyverse wonders? Imagine that.

Last I knew, those item creation feats required caster levels.

[Duke of Urrel]

The main argument is this:
Provide everything to folks & they tend to lose all motivation.
This is not speculation - this is fact.
I read a lot of history & pretty much every time folks get everything they want and no longer need to work for their support, they quickly degenerate into useless sponges. The citizens of a Tippyverse city (apart from the rare few that stay motivated no matter what) would almost universally achieve nothing at all & be interested only in their own entertainment. And that drive to keep themselves entertained gets more and more extreme over time.
Such a citizenry is no asset to anyone.
And, as bored & dissipated citizens very often do, they'd go further & further to extremes to keep themselves entertained. Eventually this would result in them destroying their own neighborhoods & cities.

"success can test one's mettle as surely as the strongest adversary."

Tippy cities will rot pretty quickly. Even the casters may get sucked into the destructive disspiation they've created in their society. Some will, some won't.

If what you have written here so far is true, then no society in our world ever was closer to its doom than our own, because no society before ours has ever had better labor-saving technology or more leisure time than we have. Should we, then, abandon our computers and go back to pen and ink on parchment?

I think you get closer to the real threat a little further on, when you propose that there must emerge a conflict between insiders and outsiders. In other words, the luxurious benefits of the Tippyverse aren't shared fairly or globally. A comparatively lucky few monopolize the technology of magic and profit handsomely from it, while the rest lose the high-paying jobs they formerly had because they can't compete against magical technology. Think of John Henry, the steel-driving man, who lost his battle against the steam drill. The Tippyverse is like that, only worse. It is full of under-employed former artisans who now make only a few copper pieces a day repeating the same command words over and over in magical factories that churn out cheap, disposable conjured junk that nobody really needs. But they have to sell something! And even the factory workers are better off than the many formerly prosperous commoners who now have no work at all, and therefore also no property, no disposable income, and no political power.

At first, the overworked factory drudges and the idle unemployed resent each other, but it's only a matter of time before they unite to wage a quasi-Luddite revolution against the tyranny of magic itself. They're not a serious problem until they get some barbarians and renegade spellcasters to join them. But when this happens, the wizard lords of the Tippyverse find themselves compelled to abandon their easy life of whim fulfillment and minor magi-technical maintenance in order to wage total war against the rebels. In that war, which turns magic toward destructive rather than beneficial ends (and let's face it, quite a lot of magic is better suited for general destruction than for general welfare), the Tippyverse falls.



And suddenly, we find ourselves back in a classic D&D or fantasy setting: Stories of powerful times, long ago, when magic was everywhere. A few remaining magical items, plus rumors of more buried in tombs & forgotten dungeons. What casters there are tend to live in towers, away from society & do their own thing. And most folks live ordinary lives very similar to that of Medieval folks.

[…]

If there was a Tippyverse, it rotted to death since the citizens had no motivation to do anything.

I agree that a Tippyverse, if it creates outrageous economic and political inequality, is likely to collapse and enter the realm of legend, but there are more ways than one for it to collapse. I think your "insiders-versus-outsiders" conflict is more likely to wreck the Tippyverse than a general decline in the work ethic.

Another possible ending is the event described in the history of the World of Greyhawk: a cataclysmic war between two superpowers at the end of a long magical arms race. Long ago, the Baklunish Empire and the Suel Imperium destroyed each other quite suddenly and with devastating thoroughness, and wizards or wizard-clerics on both sides were responsible for the destruction. Maybe these great empires once had Tippyverse-like technology, but they are only a distant memory now.

[Larkas]

The tippyverse, once opperational, doesnt need a single caster. the Wish traps are used to make other wish traps.

Hmmm, indeed. It would need an outside force for it to really be destroyed I guess. Estranged casters, outsiders, gods or eldritch abominations could all do it, though.


Means nothing when they can Wish you back to your job, freshly Mindraped and ready for work again.

Wish, when used for the transportation of an unwilling target, offers a Will save. I'm pretty sure a prepared Wizard 20 won't fail that. Considering that the Wish will come from a trap, the DC shouldn't be anything special. I'm pretty sure that Wizard can probably get some SR as well.

Mindrape can't be replicated through Wish, and must be applied when the character is within medium range. It also offers a Will save, and is blocked by Mind Blank. Yeah, I don't see that sticking.

Meanwhile, the rebel Wizard 20 probably absconded with a few (or a hundred) Wish traps. He can, I don't know, wish for a new name, for people to forget his name, or for an AMF while he plans his revenge. Or just get to the base of the Spire, I don't know.


Experts can cast 9th level spells to create new Tippyverse wonders? Imagine that.

What? :smallconfused:

[toapat]

*Snip*

The wish traps, and basically the entire reorganization of what constitutes a Supply line, is what i dont agree with in the tippyverse. The knowledge required to perform such reorganization doesnt exist yet because it relies heavily on modern economic theory, but Adam Smith doesnt exist yet, so the basis for modern Economic theory doesnt exist at all.


And Skysaber means the Workers would be: Mindraped into submissive drones, then summoned back to work by the Overwizards of the world.

[Sir Chuckles]

The wish traps, and basically the entire reorganization of what constitutes a Supply line, is what i dont agree with in the tippyverse. The knowledge required to perform such reorganization doesnt exist yet because it relies heavily on modern economic theory, but Adam Smith doesnt exist yet, so the basis for modern Economic theory doesnt exist at all.

I don't see why such a thing couldn't develop, though. Multiple societies across similar time spans often realize the same theories, theses, and inventions.

[Larkas]

The wish traps, and basically the entire reorganization of what constitutes a Supply line, is what i dont agree with in the tippyverse. The knowledge required to perform such reorganization doesnt exist yet because it relies heavily on modern economic theory, but Adam Smith doesnt exist yet, so the basis for modern Economic theory doesnt exist at all.

Agreed. Still, none of us know what it means to have an Int score of 30+, so there's that. I still don't think a few Wizards would trade power for post-scarcity - not without fierce opposition from just-as-powerful rival Wizards, at any rate. Achieving Tippyverse relies on a level of altruism I'm not really sure is humanly possible.


And Skysaber means the Workers would be: Mindraped into submissive drones, then summoned back to work by the Overwizards of the world.

Hmmm... To be honest, a Tippyverse society's hardware has a pretty Von Neumann machine level of self replication (i.e.: after the first Wish trap, all the others will come for free, and without any skilled input necessary), so I'm not even sure any workers are necessary.

But assuming they are, this society has very low levels of, well, free will, yes? Interesting...

[Psyren]

If we assume that Tippyverse is the logical outcome of a world that has full casters, what are the potential justifications for a given DnD world that has full casters in it to not already be Tippyverse?

You're forgetting the other two key aspects of Tippy-style settings:

1) Aloof deities
2) Apathetic high-CR monsters

Few D&D settings have (1), and none of them have (2). Even Eberron, where the deities are an open question, still has epic or near-epic level monsters (the dragons, giants and Inspired for instance) that are more than capable of pre-empting a tippy-level interloper before his rise to power and maintaining the status quo.

[Twilightwyrm]

"There was a Tippyverse, and then it blew up" could work. This might need to be combined a bit with "Certain spells do not work because (reasons)", except in this permutation, these reasons are more recent additions to the universe, which kept the Tippyverse from re-occuring.
This is often times kind of implied to be the current state of the D&D world. Given how many "ancient ruins", "lost civilizations" and "long-forgotten arcane mysteries" tend to pop up in D&D adventures, it is entirely possible that Tippyverses have come and gone.

[toapat]

Agreed. Still, none of us know what it means to have an Int score of 30+, so there's that. I still don't think a few Wizards would trade power for post-scarcity - not without fierce opposition from just-as-powerful rival Wizards, at any rate. Achieving Tippyverse relies on a level of altruism I'm not really sure is humanly possible.

Int is a direct correlation to how good one is with Interpretation and logic. an Untrained Wizard could strategically compete with a mid level commanding officer, but the 14 int 5 star General would 11 times out of 10 resoundingly trounce the wizard, so long as the wizard plays the game fairly without using any number of mindreading abilities.

We also have a bootstrapping problem however. When i say modern application of Economic theory, i mean as in the theory that has been tested, reiterated, and evolved from the foundations built by Adam Smith. Sure a Tippyverse Hellbent wizard could get maybe to the second significant tier of analysis needed to start working out the economic problems and restructuring on just their Int and wisdom scores with some good diviniations, but anything past that in terms of what is solidly understood about economics? thats off limits because that requires application of the prior theories and analysis of their results, and by the point where the wizard would be able to actually light the tippyverse? Only elves live that long and as a race dont have the kind of activism needed to jumpstart the tippyverse.

[Alent]

Agreed. Still, none of us know what it means to have an Int score of 30+, so there's that. I still don't think a few Wizards would trade power for post-scarcity - not without fierce opposition from just-as-powerful rival Wizards, at any rate. Achieving Tippyverse relies on a level of altruism I'm not really sure is humanly possible.

Depends on the Absent Minded Professor phenomena... 30 int. 8 wis. :smallamused:

Even not making stereotype jokes, the caster may not consciously choose to create a post-scarcity society: It could be a byproduct of attempting to achieve post-scarcity for himself. It could be as a plot to ascend to godhood through making people think of you as the divine wishgranter. It could happen for any number of reasons- it could even happen as a result of unfortunate consequences from someone making a bad wish.

Really, you can't effectively negate the Tippyverse without banning all members of the wish family of spells. (other than prestidigitation. *guitar* Take my love, take my land, take me where I flatfoot stand... I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take least wish from me... You can't take least wish from me. *woosh*)


Hmmm... To be honest, a Tippyverse society's hardware has a pretty Von Neumann machine level of self replication (i.e.: after the first Wish trap, all the others will come for free, and without any skilled input necessary), so I'm not even sure any workers are necessary.

But assuming they are, this society has very low levels of, well, free will, yes? Interesting...

After a while, it would have high levels of selective free will: You would have unlimited free will until imposed upon by a wish, at which point the imposition may or may not have permanent ramifications.

That probably means it would be a society devoid of celebrity, out of self-defense, come to think of it. Everyone would probably look kind of grungy until wished to be cleaned up, too.

[SiuiS]

This thread is not intended in any way to bash Tippyverse, call it over powered, or anything like that. Nor am I looking for ways to break or prevent Tippy.

If we assume that Tippyverse is the logical outcome of a world that has full casters, what are the potential justifications for a given DnD world that has full casters in it to not already be Tippyverse? DM Fiat and certain spells being banned notwithstanding.

I don't believe this statement actually follows, myself. Specifically, the ruleset that allows a tippy verse to exist also forces the shadow and wight apocalypse to exist, which would happen much sooner than the tippy verse.


The most in-spirit method, the one that's basically D&D canon, is it did exist, something happened, and everything died in nuclear fire. D&D is a post apocalyptic game, littered with the ruins of previous incarnations of the world. Broken citadels guarded by insane robots, intact debris from massive explosion that still works and creating a cargo cult ("we revere the wheel which creates food for our people! But it only works when we sacrifice elves!") to bizarre confluences of planar bubbles from people at war who were frozen with quintessence but still leak their permanent emanations, and were all buried by volcanic eruption. These are all great, and they all allow for a world in which someone will eventually hit upon the same ease of optimization eventually, but have not yet this iteration.

[Psyren]

Honestly I think that once you pass the 18-22 range, higher mental stats don't connote the same levels of increase that they did before those levels. I think it slows down after a bit. It's not a linear progression the way Str and Con are.

[Slipperychicken]

And Skysaber means the Workers would be: Mindraped into submissive drones, then summoned back to work by the Overwizards of the world.

I don't think it's worth it to mindrape all workers, just the troublemakers and valuable casters will be enough. Mindrapes are expensive.

Besides, you could also keep the Mindrape traps housed in room 101 of the security complex (which is probably a maximum-security demiplane) and score countless points for the 1984 reference.


Honestly I think that once you pass the 18-22 range, higher mental stats don't connote the same levels of increase that they did before those levels. I think it slows down after a bit. It's not a linear progression the way Str and Con are.

Intelligence, like almost everything else, suffers from diminishing marginal returns. Even in real life, once you're smart enough to make reasonably good decisions most of the time, the only real difference is coming from persistence, luck, and social skills.

[Larkas]

I've just noticed that we're ignoring Tippy himself here.


What the Tippyverse isn’t:
1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).
2. It’s not a 1984/Parinoia/Big Brother world where freedom does not exist and the government controls every facet of life

So there's that.

[Lord Raziere]

"There was a Tippyverse, and then it blew up" could work. This might need to be combined a bit with "Certain spells do not work because (reasons)", except in this permutation, these reasons are more recent additions to the universe, which kept the Tippyverse from re-occuring.
This is often times kind of implied to be the current state of the D&D world. Given how many "ancient ruins", "lost civilizations" and "long-forgotten arcane mysteries" tend to pop up in D&D adventures, it is entirely possible that Tippyverses have come and gone.

Yea, the best explanation is that Tippyverse already happened, and then it happened too well, too much, broke the universe and now it can never happen again, add in some murmurings about pride and hubris and you got a regular fantasy setting backstory

[NotAnAardvark]

I've just noticed that we're ignoring Tippy himself here.



So there's that.

Yeah it sounds more like star trek's "we can just magic everything you'd ever want up" pseudo-utopia.

Fundamentally though I think pointing out that gods/dragons/devils/demons exist, that there aren't that many epic wizards, and that altruistic behavior is fundamentally aberrant is enough to justify the setting not happening.

[Psyren]

I've just noticed that we're ignoring Tippy himself here.



So there's that.

Don't know who you were referring to but I certainly didn't ignore Tippy. The assumptions I listed are valid ones. Neither gods, nor superintelligent magic-using beasties (like dragons or aberrations or outsiders) are assumed to interfere much with the Prime.

[Brookshw]

Because that's not the campaign premise.

End.

[squiggit]

Don't know who you were referring to but I certainly didn't ignore Tippy. The assumptions I listed are valid ones. Neither gods, nor superintelligent magic-using beasties (like dragons or aberrations or outsiders) are assumed to interfere much with the Prime.

I think he was referring to the guy talking about spamming mindrape to keep people in order.

[toapat]

Don't know who you were referring to but I certainly didn't ignore Tippy. The assumptions I listed are valid ones. Neither gods, nor superintelligent magic-using beasties (like dragons or aberrations or outsiders) are assumed to interfere much with the Prime.

the reference was to my clarification of what Skysaber said, in that Dissident workers would be Mindraped into happyness and servitude to keep the society functioning.

Personally i dont give weight to Mindrape arguments here because thats a post coalescence thing that would have to happen to some extent in a Tippyverse but not on the scale that Skysaber Implied. As tippy himself said, the world doesnt run on Big Brother. There can and should be clear evidence that the governments are doing this in every city but only a small number of backwaters in the world should run on it. This is a highly relevant thing to a post transition world and its citizenry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk).


Because that's not the campaign premise.

End.

its a series of events presented as a definite event horizon for DnD settings. Personally i dont agree with it because it relies on essentially Internet levels of Information access, and modern day sciences to come into existance, But its undeniable that in the way presented the idea is solid when disregarding the impossibility of actually causing the transition.

With alot of work it could become a real campaign setting, to us its a framework with no canvas.

[Hida Reju]

2 things in my opinion.
1. Tippyverse requires mages to share power and information 100% of the time.

Mages have spent years accumulating knowledge and power. Once you have that power what incentive is their to share it with anyone else to create possible rivals or hindrances to your goals. You hear mages taking apprentices sometimes how often do they open Magical Colleges?

You already have the universe at your fingertips, why give the keys to anyone else?

Also in order for the Tippyverse to occur it would require the equivalent of Leonardo Da Vinci working with Thomas Edison as mage to adapt magical means for mundane uses. This leads to point 2.

2. In the beginning it hurts everyone other than the mages and they would kill it before it gets going.

It would take a kingdom to allow it to happen without the merchant guilds banding together and hiring another high lvl wizard to come and kill him for ruining they way they do business.

Its the same reason big business already buys all the politicians so that they can make policy in their favor while keeping change to a minimum.

Innovation may be great in the long run but short term things rarely go your way unless you are the first guy out the gate.

Ok, teleportation gates online for trade, that changes finance, commerce, and geo political boundaries across the whole world all at once.

Troops can move from area to are instantly creating possible invasions beyond your normal reach. Goods and services are much cheaper to transport across long distances. Anyone in the Sea Trade, or land based trade has just lost their whole business all at once.

The shear amount of change it would take would more than likely destroy itself during infancy before it ever fully evolves into its final form.

[Brookshw]

its a series of events presented as a definite event horizon for DnD settings. Personally i dont agree with it because it relies on essentially Internet levels of Information access, and modern day sciences to come into existance, But its undeniable that in the way presented the idea is solid when disregarding the impossibility of actually causing the transition.


No, its something one person said that was discussed at length, recently no less (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327950). It didn't hold up then and isn't worth a sequel. That's not the campaign were playing is answer enough.

[Elderand]

It's all DM fiat. You can present it in any way shape or form you like, from high level npcs blocking, to gods and demons preventing it. It's just so much dm fiat dressed up differently.

Best way to not have a tippyverse scenario in a high fantasy game ? Play a game that's not dnd.

[molten_dragon]

"Gods actively stop Tippyverse from happening."
DM Fiat maybe. Possibilities exist for a fun story involving somehow tricking the gods or getting out from under their oppression, other gods want Tippyverse to happen (because reasons) etc.

This was my first thought. The gods don't want a Tippyverse because it will make the world more secular and less religious. They (or their agents) step hard on any uppity wizards who try to better the lives of the common people.

Or maybe the world was a Tippyverse in the past, and that led to BAD THINGS happening somehow, so everyone is scared to try that again.

[LordBlades]

Personally, I think the most plausible way to approach Tippyverse is 'it hasn't happened yet'. Even if you admit it's unavoidable it's not going to happen until somebody figures it out, whuch can take as long as the DM needs.

[Zombimode]

Isn't Tippyverse contingent on the existence of non-harmful traps?

Those could simply not exist...

[The Insanity]

http://www.egscomics.com/comics/1394525833-20140310_002_wands.jpg

[Hubert]

It's all DM fiat. You can present it in any way shape or form you like, from high level npcs blocking, to gods and demons preventing it. It's just so much dm fiat dressed up differently.

Best way to not have a tippyverse scenario in a high fantasy game ? Play a game that's not dnd.

Except that gods/high-level monsters/NPC doing nothing to influence (prevent, take control of) the tippyverse is also DM fiat.

No shadow or whight-pocalypse occurring before TV is also DM fiat.

The setting not collapsing under the weight of RAW-shenanigans (infinite wish-trap-created armies roaming the world, time travel abuses, infinite demiplanes,...) is also DM fiat.

IMO it's impossible to play without DM fiat. Yes, even when playing a Tippyverse.

[Elderand]

Except that gods/high-level monsters/NPC doing nothing to influence (prevent, take control of) the tippyverse is also DM fiat.

No shadow or whight-pocalypse occurring before TV is also DM fiat.

The setting not collapsing under the weight of RAW-shenanigans (infinite wish-trap-created armies roaming the world, time travel abuses, infinite demiplanes,...) is also DM fiat.

IMO it's impossible to play without DM fiat. Yes, even when playing a Tippyverse.

It is indeed impossible to play whitout dm fiat, everything is dm fiat to some degree. But dm fiat is not needed to prevent the tippyverse or wight apocalypse or other such shenanigans if you play with a system that doesn't offer rules for this sorts of things.

You do however end up trading one set of issues for another, there is no perfect system. It's all a matter of picking what you consider to be acceptable.

[toapat]

Except that gods/high-level monsters/NPC doing nothing to influence (prevent, take control of) the tippyverse is also DM fiat.

No shadow or whight-pocalypse occurring before TV is also DM fiat.

The setting not collapsing under the weight of RAW-shenanigans (infinite wish-trap-created armies roaming the world, time travel abuses, infinite demiplanes,...) is also DM fiat.

IMO it's impossible to play without DM fiat. Yes, even when playing a Tippyverse.

1: in Faerun, are there any gods that explicitely exist to destroy technology?

2: i dont get why shadows would destroy the world, dont they just want to return to the plane of shadow? Wights definitely do, but they also are supposed to be canibalistic not just on their former species but also eachother. While it is not justified that they wholly destroy the world, they should have rendered entire subcontinents uninhabitable

3: the tippyverse did collapse under the very first thing you described, thats why the tippyverse exists.

[Karoht]

Oh wow, this got going in a hurry. Let me try and respond to some things.

@Wizards = No Business Sense
High Int. Skill points a go-go. Wizards are aware that their spells cost time and energy and money, and probably want some way to be reimbursed for those things. Like Doctors today who demand high fees/wages often invoke the old 'but my education was really expensive' argument. It is a valid argument, I could see a Wizard who parallels a Doctor in most respects making the same claims.
Now to counterbalance, in real life I've run into Engineers and Doctors and other "smart professionals" who are really smart people, but ask them to find a way to monetize their product/service and it usually doesn't go very well. Just personal experience on that one.

@Wizards = Introverts
Tropes are often poor arguments for justifying/disproving another trope.

@Breaking Traps
Same problem with breaking spells. Rule Zero, not for everyone.

@Socialism
Without breaking board policies, removing extrinsic rewards and using intrinsic ones (along with not requiring wage slavery in order to survive) has been studied and demonstrated to be quite effective at motivating people. Free time is awesome. Free time lets people explore fun things like the arts and entertainment or crafting, or educate themselves, or become a Wizard. As far as Tippyverse goes, it is still quite a believeable premise that the world would continue to function just fine.


It could be analogous to real world technological advancement: As I understand it, steam power was around since Roman times, but nobody put it to work until thousands of years later. Like countless other innovations, it needed to go through many adaptations and had to wait until it was economically viable for people to consider using it.I was going to use this in my original post. I wiki'd the Steam Engine first to figure out why the Romans didn't use it. The commonplace answer is that "it would put the slaves out of work" is the one bandied about, often by business people and not historians. However, upon analysis of the early designs, most of it boils down (if you enjoy puns) to just limitations on those designs, and lack of further iteration/research. They also didn't like the idea of fire on a boat.


Maybe Steve farms adventurers (partly) to try to prevent the high-level casters necessary for the Tippyverse.Steve the Aboleth was part of a campaign involving some of the buildup to Tippyverse and Emerald Legion at the same time. The reasoning for Tippyverse was to finance/expediate the creation of Emerald Legion. The Tippyverse formation was also a great misdirection. Other cities were scrambling to adopt the 'tech' and it provided an excellent cover for building the Legion.
But yes. Steve was farming adventurers, the same adventurers who would have probably prevented Tippy/Legion or helped to create them. Then Steve got a genie, and being the entrepreneur he already was, got to work on his own version of Tippyverse and Divinity/Multiplanar Religion.


Because that's not the campaign premise.
End.Rule Zero. Often mistaken for DM Fiat. Sometimes an immersion breaker due to differences in verisimilatude. Works fine for some but not for others.


http://www.egscomics.com/comics/1394525833-20140310_002_wands.jpgTo go further on this, if you place a Disintegrate trap in someones house to dispose of their refuse, don't be surprised if it gets... Reallocated? Repurposed? Yeah.
Actually happened in a semi-Tippy campaign, the one Steve the Aboleth is from.

[Brookshw]

http://www.egscomics.com/comics/1394525833-20140310_002_wands.jpg

What comic is that?

[Togo]

The question being asked is a little strange.

There are plenty of reasons why Tippyverse wouldn't be the logical outcome of the rules, but you've asked us to assume that they are. There are also plenty of reasons why mages wouldn't come to rule the gameworld, but you've asked us to assume that they do.

So given all the conditions are right for a tippyverse, and given that tippyverse is the logical outcome, why wouldn't we get a tippyverse. In other words, why wouldn't what we've assumed is the logical outcome occur? Isn't that kinda begging the question?

Taking a step back from the exact wording, and addressing the topic more generally...


Tippyverse assumes that high level spellcasters would want to spend their resources to set up a high cargo capacity teleportation network. This either means that they have such vast resources that the effort is trivial for them, or they have limited resources but are motivated to do so.

Track 1 - Vast Resources
Given that the Tippyverse network and the assumptions behind it require an awful lot of xp, this track requires the setting up of wish traps or similar options to make supplies of vital resources effectively infinite.

1) So why would they bother with teleport?
Of course if they have access to infinite resources, why bother setting up a teleport network at all? They already have access to infinite wishes, so why bother connecting to an iron mine?

To help others, of course, but then why bother using teleport to help them? Why not just use wishes? It's cheaper, easier, and doesn't require so much administration.
More likely, we split into one of two tracks again.

Either
2) No wishes for you! - ultimate power is restricted to those in power, and the rest of the gameworld is uneffected
3) Wishes for all! - Everyone gets infinite wishes, and the population gradually shifts into a series of personal utopian worlds, probably in the form of personal starships. Planets become obsolete.

Tippyverse ends up being a very strange corner case, where those in charge want to help others, but only in a very limited and particular way. It's not impossible to justify, Tippy does a fair job in trying to explain why teleportation is for the masses but infinite wishes are kept for the select few, but it requires a certain set of motivations and conditions that could just as easily be different.

Even then, it's hard to see the assumptions you gave us holding up under such a universe. You hit the
4) Who cares if you're a caster problem. In a world where everyone has infinite wishes, why would having spells matter? Why would spellcasters rule?

Because they make the wish traps of course. Except they don't, they cast spells to compel other creatures to do it via spell-like abilities.

This means you hit 5) Spellcasters aren't the best at making wishes. The midgard dwarf (Frostburn) can make magical items, including wish-producing items and efreet bottles, without any class levels at all, at a far lower level than a dedicated spellcaster. A small group of 20 or so midgard dwarves can achieve a wish-based civilisation in a little under a day.

And then there is
6) Why can't the efreet do it themselves?
Since the method of getting the wish traps, to get the ambrosia, to get the permenancy, to make the teleportation network, involves summoning an efreet (or similar) and getting it to wish for one, there seems no reason why the highly organised and civilised efreet haven't already set up their own wishtrap based civilisation

Ok, so much for the post-scarcity societies, but what about a more modest gameworld, in which we have teleport circles and not wish traps?

Track 2 - Limited Resources
Even then, we run into problems. 7) Why are archmages in the transport business? A dedicated spellcaster, no matter what the type, has dedicated a large section of his life to mastering his art. Why suddenly change direction and decide to rule/reshape the world in this particular way. Again, there are lots of plausible explanations why this would happen, and even more plausible explanations as to why it wouldn't. Your DM is free to choose (fiat) whichever one he wants.

And then there is the 8) Your ideas on Economics are not RAW objection, which comes down to whether you're following the RAW, with set prices for goods and services, or a view of modern economics, in which trade produces wealth depending on the number of sustainable interactions. In the latter, you're welcome to rule whatever effect you want, but it's not RAW. In the former, trade doesn't actually cause prices to fall, or increase availability of goods to increase. Even if it did, it would fall afoul of 9) Money is free anyway, right?. In a game where free money is available through a variety of low-level effects, what possible use is wealth through trade?

This is just a selection of reasons why Tippyverse doesn't just naturally arise, even given generous initial assumptions. A given Tippyverse requires just as many assumptions and just as much DM fiat as any other campaign world. Just like any other campaign world, you need a reason for things to happen, a reason for them to happen why they did rather than some other way, and a reason why the rest of the universe didn't prevent them.

[toapat]

@Wizards = No Business Sense
High Int. Skill points a go-go. Wizards are aware that their spells cost time and energy and money, and probably want some way to be reimbursed for those things. Like Doctors today who demand high fees/wages often invoke the old 'but my education was really expensive' argument. It is a valid argument, I could see a Wizard who parallels a Doctor in most respects making the same claims.
Now to counterbalance, in real life I've run into Engineers and Doctors and other "smart professionals" who are really smart people, but ask them to find a way to monetize their product/service and it usually doesn't go very well. Just personal experience on that one.

@Wizards = Introverts
Tropes are often poor arguments for justifying/disproving another trope.

since both of these are mine:

1: Wizards = No business Sence: No, the problem is that alot of what the tippyverse runs on, Wizards dont get their hands into, or it runs on complex economic theory that doesnt exist. Sure the less greedy wizards wouldnt be able to monetize as effectively, but thats not the problem. The problem is access to knowledge which in universe doesnt exist due to the relevant theories not being developed.

2: Wizards = Introverts is to point out why typically wizards wouldnt be able to make this work. Their realms of knowledge involve their spheres of exploration, which is typically more along the lines of Theoretical Physics, not Sociology and Economics. There is a bit of psychology though for the finer mindrapes in life.


Of course, both of these problems are resolved by a LE Archivist of Adam Smith, Whose Know (Religion) has a 1:1 correlation to a Know (modern Economics) score

Edit: and as said above, Modern Economics conflicts with DnD, where guild Policies are law about trade value.


What comic is that?

yesterday's Today's EGScomics.com strip

its ok, its nowhere near as well written as this, Schlock Mercenary, or Erfworld (for varing measures of quality, Erfworld is mostly pulp).

[Brookshw]

yesterday's Today's EGScomics.com strip

its ok, its nowhere near as well written as this, Schlock Mercenary, or Erfworld (for varing measures of quality, Erfworld is mostly pulp).

Thank you!

[The Insanity]

Lol, the answer was on the picture, bottom right corner. :smallamused:

[Hubert]

It is indeed impossible to play whitout dm fiat, everything is dm fiat to some degree. But dm fiat is not needed to prevent the tippyverse or wight apocalypse or other such shenanigans if you play with a system that doesn't offer rules for this sorts of things.

You do however end up trading one set of issues for another, there is no perfect system. It's all a matter of picking what you consider to be acceptable.

I agree with you on that. But now I wonder what sort of rules you would need to have a system that would be high-fantasy, but at the same time would not allow any RAW shenanigans (or at least shenanigans on the scale of tippyverse). As I see it, the more "magic" you have in a system, the higher the risk of having unplanned rules interactions that could destroy or radically alter the setting.

[Tengu_temp]

Tippyverse requires very specific reading of certain rules that some (or rather, most) people do not agree with. It also relies on abusing magic traps as infinite dispensers of beneficial spells. Finally, it assumes that experience for encounters and gaining levels are real in-world things, instead of mechanical approximations of characters slowly growing in strength over time.

[Karoht]

Wizards = Introverts is to point out why typically wizards wouldnt be able to make this work. Their realms of knowledge involve their spheres of exploration, which is typically more along the lines of Theoretical Physics, not Sociology and Economics. There is a bit of psychology though for the finer mindrapes in life.
Of course, both of these problems are resolved by a LE Archivist of Adam Smith, Whose Know (Religion) has a 1:1 correlation to a Know (modern Economics) score
Thomas Edison? Da Vinci? I'm certain we could name others. Outliers and not the norm, certainly, but they pop up. Lots of successful inventors were outliers for their time/location. Plenty of inventors have been able to successfuly monetize their product/service, often without formal knowledge of either the sciences they are working with OR economics.


Modern Economics conflicts with DnD, where guild Policies are law about trade value.Agreed. Game rules and actual economics are not congruent in most cases, I'm sure.

...wait, Appraise is an Int based skill.
Not only does it cover determining the value of an item, but also Bargaining. The skill description I'm about to link even covers using Magic to Bargain.
Which means that, as a simple biproduct of having a high Int, Wizards can probably handle these interactions without too much issue, never mind if they spend Skill Points on it.
Appraise Skill Description: Pathfinder SRD (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/skills/appraise)
This is not an argument to say that a Wizard would understand complex economic theories and be able to successfully apply them, but neither would they be completely lost on the topic.

[toapat]

This is not an argument to say that a Wizard would understand complex economic theories and be able to successfully apply them, but neither would they be completely lost on the topic.

Ill clarify/Correct:

Its not an argument that a wizard cant have a grasp of economics as they live in. The actual argument is that the economics dont exist for them to apply, and that the formal education of a wizard focuses on Physics and Chemistry, with some dashes of Biology and Psychology for polymorph and mindrape respectively. Assuming you put a full Suite of Economics Texts in front of a wizard, and they read them all, that wizard would be excellent at investment, creation of wealth, and economics. The entire problem is that those texts neither exist in universe, nor could they be extrapolated from the possition of where the wizard sits in the world

I did forget that Appraise is a skill.

[Karoht]

Ill clarify/Correct:

Its not an argument that a wizard cant have a grasp of economics as they live in. The actual argument is that the economics dont exist for them to apply, and that the formal education of a wizard focuses on Physics and Chemistry, with some dashes of Biology and Psychology for polymorph and mindrape respectively. Assuming you put a full Suite of Economics Texts in front of a wizard, and they read them all, that wizard would be excellent at investment, creation of wealth, and economics.

I did forget that Appraise is a skill.
With respect, I don't think it takes nearly that much effort to understand that if you buy something for 1 gold and sell it for 2, you're ahead.
Or rather, if I make X and charge people Y for using it,
Remember that the Mongols figured out economics pretty decently, including taxation. This from nomadic people who lived out of Yurts (yurts are pretty awesome though) and spent a lot of time tending livestock "while quietly becoming really good at horseback riding and archery" to the point where that became a thing they are probably the most famous for.
Wait for it... the Mongols! (www.youtube.com/watch?v=szxPar0BcMo)
Mongoltage! (www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5nlD2CR7tI)
They saw the value of taxation just fine.
All I'm saying is, I think you might be overestimating how much effort someone has to input in order to understand basic economics. Supply and Demand isn't really that hard to grasp. The Mongols just happened to be an awesomely exceptional example.

[Zombimode]

Tippyverse requires very specific reading of certain rules that some (or rather, most) people do not agree with. It also relies on abusing magic traps as infinite dispensers of beneficial spells. Finally, it assumes that experience for encounters and gaining levels are real in-world things, instead of mechanical approximations of characters slowly growing in strength over time.

This. I could not have phrased it better.

[MukkTB]

#1 We have no reason to believe Tippy is a Basement Guy.

#2 High level casters have godlike power. So what can a population of supporters do for one?

A. Provide skills the caster doesn't have. Its so much easier to have a buddy/thrall who is an expert in economics than do a bunch of arcane rituals every time you want to make a monetary decision.
The same thing goes for crafting. A good human carpenter is pretty cheap compared to the alternatives.

B. Be trained into casters themselves. This assumes somehow the first wizard expects to be able to cooperate with the second one.

#3 Resetting traps are really dumb. When I first read about them I felt that the author was a hack who was desperately trying to counter players using 10 foot poles and other simple trap precautions. Maybe he was also trying to justify abandoned 1000 year old traps still existing. Anyway the idea is dumb when it comes to traps. It gets dumber, but RAW, when applied to beneficial traps.

#4 Mechanically, magic is totally reliable. However the narrative treats magic as mysterious and prone to unintended effects. From a story standpoint it wouldn't be surprising for a high magic city like a Tippyverse city to have any number of bad things suddenly happen because *magic*. From a mechanical standpoint that's just not gonna happen without DM fiat. There is a massive disconnect here between lore and mechanics.

If I was DM? I don't see Tippyverse as a problem. Somewhere out there may be a handful of high tech magic Cities. At most there are 100 in the entire world. Maybe there are 1, 2 or 3. Maybe none because they all wiped each other out with WMDs. They don't interact economically with the outside world. They only care about what the other cities, IE groups of similar power, are doing. The founding of a new City is probably difficult because the existing cities aren't going to be in favor of new possible threats.

Tippyverse was designed so that low level play remains pretty much the way it always had. You may have missed his talk about there being a deathworld filled with monsters, tribes, and barbarian kingdoms between the Cities. That's the regular D&D world! Then when the characters are level 15 and big fish in the local pond there is a part of the setting that still poses some challenge.

Beyond that, Tippyverse isn't the only possible outcome of high magic. I haven't ever bothered to work out alternatives but Tippy claims they exist. He selected this option because it created a world he could work with as a DM.

[Zeb]

For dealing with teleport circle trade, I just use divert teleport spells, or raiders on the astral plane. Teleport trap, delay teleport divert teleport, Halaster's teleport cage.

When a bunch of gith set up interdictor style and start taking a large percentage it becomes harder to justify the continued merits of the expensive start-up cost of TCs.

[MukkTB]

What spells let you interdict teleport circles?

[toapat]

All I'm saying is, I think you might be overestimating how much effort someone has to input in order to understand basic economics. Supply and Demand isn't really that hard to grasp. The Mongols just happened to be an awesomely exceptional example.

and i said basic economics could probably be worked out, even early advanced economics.

what i have said is that highly advanced economic theory is needed, stuff we are only figuring out today, to make the Tippyverse transition

[Ravian]

I think that Eberron is a more realistic image of a magically driven society than tippyverse, in that it treats magic more as a science than anything else.

High level characters really aren't a thing in the world, even in the past the highest level characters were treated more as mythic heroes than anything a regular person could reasonably achieve. Even a several millennium old lich is only a level 17 wizard, because that sort of power normally doesn't just come from going out into the world and beating up monsters, most people will just level out after a certain point. The PC's are the exception to this rule (which helps keep the action centered on them). So instead of high level magic creating a post-scarcity society, you have a society propelled by low-level magic, where teleport networks exist but more as luxury than a standard transportation.

Magic is also treated like technology, primarily controlled by monopolies of several mega-corporations (the dragon-marked houses). Most of the magi-tech wonders that these groups create are highly dependent on the use of a hereditary dragonmark (basically a magical birthmark) in order to function. This is to help preserve their monopolies as much as because the devices actually function from their marks. Often these will involve huge cooperations between the houses (and other groups).
Airships are a great example. The ship itself is only propelled by bound elementals which are done by the gnomes of Zilargo. House Cannith, as the bearers of the mark of making, generally make most of the magical devices in these endeavors, including the wheel that allows one to pilot the ship and control the elementals. However only the mark of storm held by House Lyrander can use these wheels, providing the necessary magic and ensuring them exclusive aerial shipping.

Obviously if one assumes that magic works exactly as it's described in the books, then there's no reason why House Cannith, having the most raw magical know-how, could just cut the other groups off and make all the airships for themselves, binding their own elementals and creating wheels that could be used without a mark of storm. But the simple fact is that that's currently not possible. Cannith is certainly trying to accomplish these things, but elemental binding is a technique held exclusively as a monopoly by the gnomes, who also have one of the most ruthless espionage networks to prevent leaks and silence anyone who made progress towards replicating the technology. Meanwhile the creation of wheels that bypassed house Lyrander would cause huge political fallout between the two groups (Since Lyrander originally funded the project) Lyrander would probably embargo Cannith and encourage the other houses not to supply them with the services and components they needed. (This is all assuming that they even could make a wheel without the dragonmark)

The third thing is that magic items are actually dependent on a material resource to function (rather than experience points and abstract investments of gold). These are called dragonshards, and are generally what are bought in all of those gold investments. Problem is that dragonshards are difficult to find and extract. The most common variety are easy to extract, but they are generally found only in out of the way locations. Others fall from the sky in showers and require a guide to locate them after they fall. The last are only found deep underground (often in volcanically active caverns). That means that generally the mining of these are the monopoly of a different house, which have the mark of finding to help identify veins of them.

It all comes together in a way where magic is common, but doesn't get severely out of hand to the point where the setting becomes boring. (since really, if I wanted to play in a post-scarcity pseudo-utopian society, I'd find a star trek game (where you at least have something to do rather than have all your needs met for you))

[molten_dragon]

Another possible explanation might be the Doctor Manhattan effect. As a wizard becomes more powerful, he becomes more and more detached from baseline humanity. Sure, a 20th level wizard could set up the Tippyverse, but why would he care about the peasants dying of disease and starvation? He's got much bigger things to think about.

[Yawgmoth]

Isn't Tippyverse contingent on the existence of non-harmful traps?

Those could simply not exist... From what I've seen, it's contingent on a lot of things existing in a very specific way using a very specific reading of the rules governing them and using a very interesting definition of "logical".

Not to mention that it assumes high level casters are (a) existent, (b) occur often, (c) feel like spending their time and energy on crafting. None of these are a given or guaranteed. Assuming the base numbers for leadership math, only 0.0003% of the population is ever going to see 17th level. Now figure in how many of that subset go into a casting class, and how many of that subset decide to make teleportation circles et al. for the greater good/profit, and how many of that subset actually get to do so before getting wrapped up in near-epic plots & intrigues and/or killed. Sure, you could have something like it come out of standard issue D&D (if you look at rules ABCXYZ just so, and assume that everyone thinks about this concept in this particular way, and ignore this other thing which would/could be a massive stumbling block, and and and). But to imply that it's logical, or that it has to happen sometime in a setting, or that it makes any more sense than any other D&D setting is rather precious.

tl;dr: tippyverse makes enough assumptions to overload a commercial supertanker and then uses them to put forth a lot of "logical" assertions that I personally find dubious at best.

[Karoht]

and i said basic economics could probably be worked out, even early advanced economics.
what i have said is that highly advanced economic theory is needed, stuff we are only figuring out today, to make the Tippyverse transitionPerhaps I'm missing something here. What form of advanced economic theory are we talking about here? Can you name some examples?
People who aren't economists end up planning economies of whole nations, non-engineers end up city planners, etc. This is not an uncommon thing. Most don't seem smart enough to drive a car, nevermind the economy of a nation, yet here we are.

[Aquillion]

Wizards are also not typically depicted in a way that would lend itself to learning how to apply teleportation circle in an economically beneficial matter, and the Tippyverse relies on 3 things:

Application of Teleportation circle in Mercantile trades (requires Knowledge (Economics) or Profession (Merchant)).Wizards have high intelligence (which means a lot of skills, as well as a decent untrained roll to figure things out.) Additionally, there are lots of ways to become a wizard, and some of them may retain knowledge from a pre-wizardry upbringing (eg. as the son of a wealthy merchant prince.)

Taken together, these things mean that while most wizards may not be economically-focused, there's likely to be at least a few; and even when there aren't, sooner or later someone is going to get a flash of insight, roll a 20, and have a brilliant idea. Einstein, after all, was a patent clerk when he came up with most of his initial ideas.

The first wizard to figure it out probably isn't going to come up with the ideal way to exploit teleportation circles in commerce, sure, but they don't have to -- once they start applying them in even a crudely-effective way (just connecting two cities to buy and sell at an advantage between them -- not an idea that really requires that you be a master merchant), other people are going to take notice and start exploring the idea in more detail. This will, eventually, lead to at least a few wizards with maxed economic skills, as it becomes obvious that in a magical world, magic can get you large amounts of wealth which can buy you more more magic.

[VoxRationis]

Yeah, I'm not really seeing what it is about the basic premise of the Tippyverse that requires advanced economic theory. It doesn't take an economist to say "Caravans have a lot of overhead; if I made a permanent teleportation circle, I would eliminate transportation costs for my own business, or be able to charge wonderful tolls on traffic through it," nor to say "Wouldn't it be great if I made self-resetting wish machines so I could have infinite wishes?"

As for the trap thing, let me give my two cents:
1) I hate the idea of infinite magic traps of wish and the like.
2) I can think of no idea why beneficial traps shouldn't work.
Unless you have some very spiteful god of magic who determines its rules, there is no inherent reason why you can make a resetting device that casts a destructive spell over and over and not one that casts a beneficial spell of the same level over and over. The problem comes in that it takes what was meant as a handwaved tool for vicious DMs, not meant to be thought out too thoroughly (you encounter the trap in a dungeon, you bypass it, you leave), and applies the concept in a way it wasn't meant to be applied. The designers of the game did not mean for wizards to have infinite spells like this; they designed it so that the DM wouldn't have to worry about the exact charges left on a trap in a dungeon. I think that part of the reason a lot of people have a problem with the concept, myself included, is that the phrase "beneficial trap" is an oxymoron; had the concept been phrased as "spell machine" or "infinite wand" or something like that, we wouldn't have the same problems of "You're abusing the system" that we have with the idea.

I do have a reason why Wish traps wouldn't work in one of my campaigns, however. Wish requires that you state the conditions of the wish. A trap casts the spell, not the person activating the trap. A trap is incapable of coherent thought, and if you make it intelligent, well, everyone knows intelligent items, like AIs, are a crapshoot. Therefore, even if your DM allows you to craft the Wish trap, the Wishes do nothing, because no one is saying "I wish that..." in a fashion that is connected to the actual spell.

[Psyren]

The simple fact is that Wish traps are custom items and do not actually exist unless the DM allows them to. There are guidelines to create them (notably, in the DMG) but then there are guidelines to create nearly any custom object and you can theoretically have a staff of unlimited wishes too.

Note also that by strict, silly levels of RAW-reading, magical traps have to be dangerous. So all these perfectly efficient, harmless happy-sunshine-rainbow traps that power magical society need some element in there that causes them to be a hazard. Maybe this is why all the utopian magitech societies like Netheril and Zeal inevitably break down? :smalltongue:

[georgie_leech]

Note also that by strict, silly levels of RAW-reading, magical traps have to be dangerous. So all these perfectly efficient, harmless happy-sunshine-rainbow traps that power magical society need some element in there that causes them to be a hazard. Maybe this is why all the utopian magitech societies like Netheril and Zeal inevitably break down? :smalltongue:

Have you seen how lazy and complacent these people in a post scarcity economy can get? Just pushing the button is enough to risk breaking their fingers! :smalltongue:

[Karoht]

Have you seen how lazy and complacent these people in a post scarcity economy can get? Just pushing the button is enough to risk breaking their fingers! :smalltongue:
I recall the great Broken Figure shutdown of ought-six. Broken fingers in almost every place you can think of. Dem Clerics were crazy busy too, on account of no one could push the buttons to operate the Cure Wounds devices.

[jedipotter]

The tippyverse, once opperational, doesnt need a single caster. the Wish traps are used to make other wish traps.

Sure, but then you have a bunch of mundanes running everything. And after a couple generations, they forget things/ Or just don't care. And then what do they do if something, anything happens? They most likely die.

You can have unlimited wishes, but if you can't make a single good wish, they are useless.

[Karoht]

Sure, but then you have a bunch of mundanes running everything. And after a couple generations, they forget things/ Or just don't care. And then what do they do if something, anything happens? They most likely die.

You can have unlimited wishes, but if you can't make a single good wish, they are useless.
Amusing.
We've gone from the trope of 'Wizards are too stereotypically absent minded professors in order to X'
All the way full circle to the trope of 'Mundanes are too dumb to X'
(I'm heavily generalizing here)

[Threadnaught]

This argument reminds me of a thread where I argued for an original Tippyverse Wizard.

First of all, anyone running a business that sells supplies for the casting of Spells and/or creation of Magic Items will heavily benefit both at the beginning of the rise of the Tippyverse and for as long as there is anything being built.
Secondly, any competitors whom the TV Wizard force out of business would be compensated by TVW as they begin their business model, they could buy them out with a bit of cash as a lump sum and offer them employment as salesmen. If they don't accept and end up destitute, it's their fault.
Thirdly, while the entire business could easily be automated, it is better for customer satisfaction that only production, manufacturing and some security be automated.

For all the time it takes the Wizard to create the one Fabricate Trap and two TCs to transport the goods, they receive a steady income for the rest of their life, which can buy them anything they want. Unlimited Arcane Power is all well and good, but sometimes it's better to rule the world Tarquin style, rather than brute force killing everything that poses a threat to you.


A Necropolitan has all the time in the world to steal an entire continent from under people's noses.

[Sam K]

Ah! This is a question I've already answered for my still-being-designed Nethril game.

"The Archwizards like things as they are and actively block attempts to go too far toward Tippyverseness"

Yeah, it's because those who can, don't want to.

This one is what I'd use. Think of it as nuclear weapons during the cold war: those with that kind of power would rather that noone else (even some of their allies) didn't have that kind of power, because it's more useful to have that power if not everyone does. Could make for a good Illuminati-like global plot too, with some EXTREMELY ancient mages keeping the magic powered society from evolving.

Another one would be "Whenever a civilization begins to reach the level where they could sustain the Tippyverse, they end up destroying themselves".

Ofcourse, in either cases the PCs will meddle with the balance of power and either destroy the world or make the Tippyverse. Either way's good!