The Optimized Bard

[Melcar]

As indicated I'm trying to create a powerful Bard. I would like to do it, with out full cheese, but then again. I have no clue where to start, so if any of you would be willing to share some of what you know... thanks!

[Nihilarian]

As indicated I'm trying to create a powerful Bard. I would like to do it, with out full cheese, but then again. I have no clue where to start, so if any of you would be willing to share some of what you know... thanks!Bards can do anything. What do you want it to do?

[Melcar]

Right... well boost the rest of the party. I've heard they are sopposed to be bad ass at that. SO lets go full support! :smallsmile:

[Zetapup]

Right... well boost the rest of the party. I've heard they are sopposed to be bad ass at that. SO lets go full support! :smallsmile:

In that case, I'd probably go with feats like Words of Creation and Dragonfire Inspiration. Boost your inspire courage as much as possible (I believe there's a vest which gives you +1, and a setting specific feat which gives you another +1. I'll try to find those.) and you can pretty easily add 8d6+ elemental damage to your group's attacks. If you want to be useful in combat, try to fit in snowflake wardance plus maybe battledancing slippers. Crusader goes reasonably well with bard if you're going melee.

Edit: The setting specific feat I was thinking of is Song of the Heart, from Eberron. Vest is the vest of legends (dmg 2). There's also the Badge of Valor from the Magic Item Compendium for extra inspire courage. I don't recommend stacking all these on one character as it will quickly get ridiculous, and I suggest you talk to your dm before taking Words of Creation.

[Nihilarian]

Inspire Courage Optimization. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936.0)

[Darkweave31]

I'm partial to a Silverbrow human Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 with dragonfire inspiration to make a good caster/buffer bard...
Other tricks include but are not limited to:
-Words of Creation feat to double bardsong effects
-bard/warblade with song of the white raven to make a fighter bard (add snowflake wardance and slippers of battledance to taste)
-melodic casting for singing while you cast and casting while you sing

Bard archers can be really fun when you add in either dragonfire inspiration or words of creation (or both, but that's just silly :smallwink:)... I love the flavor of singing a magical verse to have your arrows burst into flame and it gives good damage on a bow for minimal investment.

EDIT: For buffing and support I once again recommend the build I posted above for a great mix of magic and song support for your allies without sacrificing much in the way of skills to play with.

For a more support and lead from the front approach, a bard/warblade with song of the white raven and focus on white raven maneuvers will have great combat skills while still pushing their allies to great heights.

[gorfnab]

Some recomended reading material:
Bard Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=3grkicrj9gunkhi1l1j7ovq2b1&topic=8686)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=3grkicrj9gunkhi1l1j7ovq2b1&topic=8936)

[LibraryOgre]

Not an optimization guide; more of a manifesto. (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/37868.html)

[Dread_Head]

Pretty much everythings been covered already, Focus mostly on boosting IC as high as you can. The only thing that I think hasn't been mentioned so far is Inspirational Boost (SpC).

Also don't forgot your spells, Bards have some very good buffs: Haste, Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement etc.
They also have a bunch of other good spells: Glitterdust, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Alter Self, Invisibility, Dispel Magic etc.

You can't really go wrong with starting combat with Dragonfire Inspiration. Then possibly following it up with Inspire Courage and then casting some spells.

[Bloodgruve]

Alter Self is a great buff spell. Change into a Troglodyte for +6 natural armor and 3x natural attacks. Now you're sitting pretty good and can run into melee with some decent defense. Throw Displacement on top of it, as mentioned before, and you're good to go.

You could look at a Dual Whip build for fun;

If you DM is open to it Whip-Daggers from Arms and Equipment 3.0 do lethal damage and you're already proficient with whips, Pathfinder has Scorpion Whip also that does lethal damage. Water Whip from MIC is another option. TWF and Oversized TWF turns you into a pretty decent mid-line damage dealer. Work up some Knowledge Devotion added to IC and you're throwing out some respectable damage at lower levels.


GL
Blood~

[Melcar]

Thanks for all the cool tips.

Are there any other spells than Inspirational Boost, that might do the same thing?

[Xerlith]

Spells? No.

If you want to crank the support/tactical stuff to 11, you might want to break out a Bardblade build (Bard6/Warblade14) with focus on White Raven maneuvers. With Song of the White Raven you retain full Inspire Courage progression.

[Talionis]

I like Bard 7/ Master Thrower 3/ Druid 1/ Fochluchen Lyrist 9 as a build. It's very feat tight, but Master Thrower with both the Palm Throw and the Ricochet Throw Trick can multiply your attacks so much.

Druid can add even more buffs, it has access to some of the good Ranger ranged buffs. Lyrist is full BAB, full Arcane and Divine casting and full Music. It's a very powerful bump. A level of Sublime Chord can be even stronger to get higher level arcane casting.

[Melcar]

Would it be possible to stack: Inspirational Boost and Harmony, for an added effect?

[Ansem]

Optimized Bard, if you're not going Sublime Chord you're not optimizing.

[Talya]

Optimized Bard, if you're not going Sublime Chord you're not optimizing.

Banthapoodoo.

Single-class Bard 20 can be optimized in to the most powerful and versatile tier 3 in the game (and in fact, far more versatile than any sublime chord build, though significantly less powerful). You don't need to jump to an overpowered tier to optimize.

[Talionis]

Optimized Bard, if you're not going Sublime Chord you're not optimizing.

This is really true and it usually is only one level of Sublime Chord. Because some other Prestige Class is usually better at progressing the Sublime Chord casting.

[Talya]

This is really true and it usually is only one level of Sublime Chord. Because some other Prestige Class is usually better at progressing the Sublime Chord casting.

Again, even if going Sublime Chord, this is not necessarily true.

The single best ACF bard has going for it is Bardic Knack, which, together with a feat like Jack of All Trades, turns the bard into the superlative ultimate skill-monkey.

Now, it can be argued that Sublime Chord continues Bardic Knack, as Bardic Knack replaces Bardic Knowledge, and Sublime Chord advances Bardic Knowledge.

If the DM allows that reasoning, and you're not pushing for a melee bard, you really don't want to throw Virtuoso in there. Bard 10/SC 10 is a spellcastery bard, but it still has a fair amount of versatility - not as much as bard 20, but if you're in a higher powered game, where everyone is tier 1/2, then this is the way to play a bard. However, if melee combat is your thing, or your party contains other tier 3 - 5 classes, you don't want to deviate from bard at all. Plus you'll be more versatile than any of them.

My ideal single class bard build:


Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Melodic Casting, Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)

[Socratov]

Optimized Bard, if you're not going Sublime Chord you're not optimizing.

you mean sublime chord and virtuoso..

Oh, and bonuses of the same type never stack, so harmony and Inspirational boost don't stack. what's more, where do you get the swift actions to use them both?

[Melcar]

you mean sublime chord and virtuoso..

Oh, and bonuses of the same type never stack, so harmony and Inspirational boost don't stack. what's more, where do you get the swift actions to use them both?

Harmony gives un-specific increase to the moral bonus of inspire courage, inspirational boost boost does the same. So as far as I believe un-specific bonuses stack??

Harmony just need you to activate your "musik" within 1 munute.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Also check out the joker bard. May not be exactly what you are looking for, but can give you some ideas that you can use to support your party by playing your strengths.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158

[Talya]

Harmony and Inspirational Boost don't exist together as separate spells. Spell Compendium specifies one is a revision of the earlier one (they just renamed it.)

[Aliek]

If dragon magazine is on the table, Heartfire Fanner is a crazy awesome PrC for both bards and wannabe bards alike. It stacks with your bardic levels, or if you have none it gives you an effective bard level of 5.

Then you get an increased caster level every level, and a song that can grant bonus fighter feats to allies, and a song that can grant free metamagic to spontaneous casters, including yourself. And as a capstone, it can extend some effects on allies too!

[Ansem]

Banthapoodoo.

Single-class Bard 20 can be optimized in to the most powerful and versatile tier 3 in the game (and in fact, far more versatile than any sublime chord build, though significantly less powerful). You don't need to jump to an overpowered tier to optimize.

Bard scales ****ty, just saying.

[Nihilarian]

Bard scales ****ty, just saying.Compared to full casters, I suppose so. Just like everyone else. Otherwise it's fine.

[Talya]

A well built Bard 20 is far more powerful and versatile than a Warblade 20, a Beguiler 20, Factotum 20, or a Dread necromancer 20.

it is the quintessential, ultimate Tier 3 class. If you are saying "Anything less than tier 2 is unplayable at high levels," I'll disagree with you. Tier 3 is the perfect balance point. Tier 1/2 are a bit problematicly strong. Oh, I love playing them, but not every character needs to be a full caster, and if your party has melee classes, you are probably better off not making them useless.

[Melcar]

If dragon magazine is on the table, Heartfire Fanner is a crazy awesome PrC for both bards and wannabe bards alike. It stacks with your bardic levels, or if you have none it gives you an effective bard level of 5.

Then you get an increased caster level every level, and a song that can grant bonus fighter feats to allies, and a song that can grant free metamagic to spontaneous casters, including yourself. And as a capstone, it can extend some effects on allies too!

That sounds awesome. Dragon mag should be fine, Eberron is not though. Buut...

I have tried to calculate the maximum possible IC and this is what I got.


Inspire Courage +1/+2/+3/+4
Horn +1
Inspirational Boost +1
Badge of Valor +1
Word of Creation +1/+2/+3/+4

Song of the Heart +1
Masterpiece* +5
Greater Inspirational Boost** +2/… /+6

* = Dragon Mag 301
** = Homebrew spell


(The top half if what so far is on the table for us)

Giving a "legal" total of +11, a RAW total of 12, a RAW with Dragon Mag allowed of +17, for our game +16 if Dragon Mag is allowed, and if your Dungeon master allows for homebrew spells, +22/23.

Thats prety good i think.

What do you guys think?

[Iwasforger03]

Not an optimization guide; more of a manifesto. (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/37868.html)

Can I just hug you? Because That is everything ever on why I love the god damned bard. They are just so friggin beautiful and so many people do NOT UNDERSTAND and I'm crying on the inside right now.

Also to the guy who actually just posted up the IC totals, those look damned impressive, but no matter what, don't forget your diplomacy.

Max that bloody thing out. The things you can do with diplomacy alone are incredible. *

*Not valid in some games where the DM does not equally agree. Not all parties support, be wary. Education of the DM and/or party in the awesomeness of Diplomacy is highly recommended.

Still useful, but sometimes, the DM isn't as ok with a bard who can talk his way out of anything, and that's ok. You really shouldn't talk your way out of everything, just some things. Like a castle full of fully armed evil warriors who will kill you at the drop of a hat.