3 Fireballs/round?

[Scorponok]

Hi Giants,

I have a group that was wondering about the validity of this. Basically, one says that he can make a character who can cast 3 fireballs per round. The way it works is this:



"Also wondering, how did you make the 3 fireball/round character?"
---3 fireball/round character 1/day.
------A lvl 12 Wizard has 6th lvl spells and 6th level spell slots
-------Metamagic is awesome for prepared casters
---------A Quickened Spell is a spell that takes up a slot 3 levels higher than normal in order to be cast as a swift action
-----------if a sorcerer tries a quickened spell, because this is a part where 3rd Ed sucks, the sorcerer needs a full round casting time to cast the quickened spell because spontaneous casters fail at metamagic
----------------a fireball is a 3rd lvl spell that casts on a standard action
---------------------a quickened fireball is a 6th lvl spell
-----------------------had 8 3rd lvl spell slots
-------------------------had 5 6th lvl spell slots
---------------------------could have had 5 quickened fireballs and 8 regular ones, = 5 rounds day of double fireball if I wanted
-----------------------------If you want a triple fireball you need to know CONTINGENCY the 6th lvl wizard/sorcerer spell
--------------------------------http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm
------------------------------------you spend 10 minutes casting Contingency and another spell, the spell holds on a charge and finishes when a condition is met. The charge holds for days. So on day one you cast your level 6 contingency and level 3 fireball charge, and on day 2 all your spell slots are yours to do with what you wish
-------------------------------------------possible normal contingencies include. "As soon as a physical threat is detected my Stoneskin activates." "If I get below half health I immediately teleport to me secret base." "If I shot a lightning bolt, another lightning bolt comes out."
----------------------------------------------My Contingency which I wrote down on my iPAD and showed other players before the game started... Contingency for a Fireball activates "when I cast a quickened fireball, the contingent fireball shoots at the same target). Then I cast a normal standard action fireball to get 3 but I could have used any spell I wanted.


My question is, *as written* can Contingency be used to cast a Fireball?

The part that makes me think "no" is the part that says "must be one that affects your person". Fireball does not affect their PC, but rather the PC's enemies.

The player says online people argue this both ways.

[eggynack]

Two issues. First, the thing you noted, because you'd presumably need to center the contingent fireball on yourself. Second, quicken is a +4 metamagic. So, you'll need some sort of metamagic reducer, or 7th level spells, to get the quicken part to work, and you'll probably want to run craft contingent spell (CArc, 77) to get the contingency part to work, cause that wouldn't require self-targeting your fireball. Basically, it's not that difficult to get three fireballs in a round, but this method doesn't really work.

[Big Fau]

It's impossible to cast more than one spell per round unless one of those spells is a free action to cast:


A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.



You are right about the Contingency not allowing Fireball. Greater Arcane Fusion (Fireball+Twinned Fireball) works though.

[eggynack]

It's impossible to cast more than one spell per round unless one of those spells is a free action to cast:

Quicken spell explicitly overrides that rule, stating, "You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell."

[(Un)Inspired]

It's pretty easy to cast a hell of a lot more than 3 fireballs in one turn using arcane fusion with a sorcerer as Big Fau pointed out and with celerity along with immunity to daze.

In fact, The sorcerer's metamagic problem is actually a boon when it comes to the spell arcane spellsurge and invisible spell metamagic.

If you use Greater arcane fusion containing celerity used to cast another arcane fusion ad infinitum until you run out of 8th level slots then you can slot as many fireball as you have spells built up. You'll be able to cast a huge number of fireballs but you're kind of like a soldier going to war with fifty slingshots instead of just one gun.

His plan to use contingency to cast a fireball is the least intelligent use of Contingency I've ever heard.

Even if it works the way he wants it to (I don't think it does) wasting a great ability like contingency to inefficiently cast an additonal low power blast spell is kind of like finding fool's gold and running around loudly proclaiming that you're rich.

If you're the DM then you could probably just let this guy continue to run this character then run some wizards intelligently against him to show him how badly he's wasting phenomenal cosmic power.

If you're a player in his party then hopefully you're character is strong enough to make up for his incompetence. If not, perhaps you could help him make a useful character?

If he's just a friend of yours proclaiming his find then... just let him continue to show his ignorance? I guess?

[Scorponok]

Also note, I am a pretty new DM and have a bunch of more experienced players helping me out with rules, etc.

The player in question's PC is level-12.

Two players said they don't allow PHBII in their campaigns so I took their advice and followed that. Our books we are using are the PHB, DMG, Complete books, Miniatures Handbook, and Tome of Battle.

[Vhaidara]

Wait, there's a banned book that isn't ToB?

On topic, 3 fireballs is possible (as stated, normal, Quickened, and a crafted Contingent Spell, but not actual Contingency), even without Arcane Spellsurge shenanigans.

Off topic again, PH2 is awesome and you should totally allow it. One of my favorite books, since the classes are all pretty fun (Knight for life).

[Juntao112]

Quickened Fireball, Twinned Fireball

[Brookshw]

In rod we trust

[Dorian Gray]

Quickened twin fireball, followed up with twin greater arcane fusion (fireball, twin fireball), for a net result of 5 fireballs?
I kid, I kid. Although now I want to do that.:smallbiggrin:

[Tohsaka Rin]

Quickened fireball, double-wand wielder, and two wands of fireball.

Just remember to swap the wands after the first dozen shots, so they burn out semi-evenly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) is a +4 metamagic cost though, so it would take a 7th level spell slot to cast a Quickened Fireball.

It's possible, but there are better spells than Fireball, especially at that level.

[ericgrau]

Maybe at times, but how many sleet storms and hastes do you really need? The nice thing about fireball when you can cast 3 to 5 to more of some spell, is that it's hard to have too much fireball. And less than 5% of monsters in the MM are fully immune (plus there's searing spell, energy substitution, etc.).

The real question is why not a sleet storm, a haste and 3 fireballs?

[Big Fau]

Maybe at times, but how many sleet storms and hastes do you really need? The nice thing about fireball when you can cast 3 to 5 to more of some spell, is that it's hard to have too much fireball. And less than 5% of monsters in the MM are fully immune (plus there's searing spell, energy substitution, etc.).

The real question is why not a sleet storm, a haste and 3 fireballs?

Because a moderately melee-focused party means Haste is capable of significant damage output, both during the round it's cast and every subsequent round. The rare situation where Fireball is good is when the enemy wouldn't be much of a threat to the party's tank either.

Fireball does beat Sleet Storm in damage, but the debuff means Fireball isn't as tactically useful. Friendly fire isn't, pun intended, and Sleet Storm is much easier to coordinate than Fireball.

[ericgrau]

You can't use 2 hastes though and usually you can't use 2 40' radius sleet storms. Or certainly not 3. That was the point. Even if you substitute in web or what not there's not as much point when there's already a sleet storm.

...or if you have shaping and/or energy subsitution you just nuke the field and don't worry about slowing down foes because they're all dead. Whereas if you slow foes 5 ways it's overkill yet still without killing or fully disabling the foes.

[FaiT]

Sorcerer with Arcane Spellsurge up

Free Action - Quickened Arcane Fusion
Swift Action - Greater Arcane Fusion
Standard Action - Heightened Greater Arcane Fusion

Result Level 1, 4, 4, 4, 7, 7 Spells in one turn

Step 5: Profit

Its important to remember that a character may only cast one spell per round.

Except:

As a free action (only one spell as a free action may be cast per round)
As a Swift Action (Only one swift action may be taken per round)
An Immediate Action counts as your 1 Swift Action per round

Celerity grants another standard action, to my knowledge this does nothing to lift the one spell per round restriction.

[LTwerewolf]

Why not just use spell storing thrown weapons? Shenanigans with lots of attacks. Two weapon fighting line, rapid shot line, etc.

[MadGreenSon]

Good 'ol Fireball. I feel so old. Back when we were playing AD&D (not 3.0, not 2nd Edition, but AD&D!) you knew you had finally arrived as a magic user when you cast your first Fireball. It was a rite of passage almost. More so than when you hit 12th level and were then allowed to build a stronghold and attract followers.

Not anymore. Last fireball I saw used in game was more than a year ago and it was a Fell Animate Fireball cast with a rod of Twinning to get some quick cannon fodder to clear out the "yard trash" as the PCs called it, guarding the fortress they were besieging. (You know you're a hard crew when four guys can beseige a castle effectively)

I like this though, what's that 5 fireballs in a round? Good times! :smallbiggrin:

[Tessman the 2nd]

Add Swiftblade and assume supernatural ability (quickness) on top for two more more arcane fusions and time stop for delayed fireballs

[Stoneback]

Yeah, but why not just cast four fireballs per round? See? That's one more fireball.

All you have to do is wish for the ability to cast four fireballs in the next round. See? Just one 9th level spell, and then you can throw four fireballs.

Better yet, wish to use burning hands SIX times in one round! That's twice as many!

Or maybe even wish for 9 uses of daze! Just think of how strong that would be! You were only throwing 3 spells before, and now you're throwing like five times as many!

Man it's good to think like a monk fights.

[animewatcha]

Unfortunately, will have to disagree with Big Fau a bit and some of the arcane spellsurge. The thing about Casting Time that was posted was a blurb from Player's Handbook 1 ( aka before swift/immediate actions were part of 3.5 books and what not). Page 174.

Also, Arcane spellsurge does NOT allow faster spell casting than a swift action. As normal casting time of 'swift action' is not listed on the table, Arcane spellsurge doesn't 'haste' it. Also, there is a blurb that arcane spellsurge doesn't stack with other effects that reduce any other effect that reduce a spell's casting time. So it is not legal to quicken spells while under the spell's effect. You also can't choose to ignore the Arcane spellsurge's effect. Dragon magic 64.

[FaiT]

Unfortunately, will have to disagree with Big Fau a bit and some of the arcane spellsurge. The thing about Casting Time that was posted was a blurb from Player's Handbook 1 ( aka before swift/immediate actions were part of 3.5 books and what not). Page 174.

Also, Arcane spellsurge does NOT allow faster spell casting than a swift action. As normal casting time of 'swift action' is not listed on the table, Arcane spellsurge doesn't 'haste' it. Also, there is a blurb that arcane spellsurge doesn't stack with other effects that reduce any other effect that reduce a spell's casting time. So it is not legal to quicken spells while under the spell's effect. You also can't choose to ignore the Arcane spellsurge's effect. Dragon magic 64.

It's not stacking. As you pointed out Spells with cast time of Immediate, Swift, or Free are not valid targets of Arcane Spellsurege, therefore, no stacking - therefore, no problem.

EDIT: I forgot the 3.5 Quicken rule with Sorcerers. I use the the Pathfinder rule. Sorry, my bad.

EDIT 2: If you threw in Rapid Metamagic you could cast a quickened Arcane Fusion, a Greater Arcane Fusion, and a full round Spell (which would become a standard action, like sleep). So 5.

[Godskook]

It's impossible to cast more than one spell per round unless one of those spells is a free action to cast:

This is literally the most misleading answer possible, considering the discussed loopholes are either free actions or non-actions.


My question is, *as written* can Contingency be used to cast a Fireball?

The part that makes me think "no" is the part that says "must be one that affects your person". Fireball does not affect their PC, but rather the PC's enemies.

The player says online people argue this both ways.

If he targeted himself with the contingent fireball, its debatable, but he simply can't target it elsewhere with the contingency spell.

On the other side of things, he's just not trying hard enough if the best he can do is 3 fireballs in one round at level 12, so be grateful for that. The mailman hits a *LOT* harder by then.

[Seffbasilisk]

Eyebeams for glory!

[Chronos]

There is no such thing as a spell with a free action casting time. Once the concept of swift actions was introduced, the Quicken metamagic was changed so that it makes the spell a swift action.

[animewatcha]

It's not stacking. As you pointed out Spells with cast time of Immediate, Swift, or Free are not valid targets of Arcane Spellsurege, therefore, no stacking - therefore, no problem.

EDIT 2: If you threw in Rapid Metamagic you could cast a quickened Arcane Fusion, a Greater Arcane Fusion, and a full round Spell (which would become a standard action, like sleep). So 5.

The issue is attempting to use arcane spellsurge and quicken spell to turn something like a summon ( normal a 1 full round casting time ) into a swift action. Rapid metamagic is not usable with arcane spellsurge due to text in arcane spellsurge's description ( reducing cast time ).

Like Chronos also agrees. No free action spells.

[FaiT]

There is no such thing as a spell with a free action casting time. Once the concept of swift actions was introduced, the Quicken metamagic was changed so that it makes the spell a swift action.

Maybe you could link to where this is true? My book says free action. However, I play Pathfinder and Pathfinder says swift action. I don't know how I missed it before...

[animewatcha]

We are talking about 3.5. Complete arcane has quicken spell be swift. Heck, go into dndtools ( sorry, but best quickie-wikie place I could think of ) and 'search' for quicken spell. Notice all the references to swift action.

[FaiT]

A Fireball has a base of 1 Standard Action. Rapid Metamagic prevents this from becoming 1 Full Round Action. It doe NOT reduce 1 Full Round Action to 1 Standard Action. Arcane Spellsurge does not stack with any other effect that reduces casting time but Rapid Metamagic merely prevented an increase.

[FaiT]

We are talking about 3.5. Complete arcane has quicken spell be swift. Heck, go into dndtools ( sorry, but best quickie-wikie place I could think of ) and 'search' for quicken spell. Notice all the references to swift action.


Quicken Spell
( Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 98)

[Metamagic]

You can cast a spell with a moment's thought.
Prerequisite

Required for

Automatic Quicken Spell (CAr) , Automatic Quicken Spell (ELH) , Improved Cooperative Metamagic (PG) , Innate Spell (CAr) , Innate Spell (FRCS) , Innate Spell (TB) , Mastery of the Silver Void (PE) , Multispell (ELH) , Multivoice (SS) , Spell Opportunity (ELH) , Sudden Quicken (CAr) , Sudden Quicken (MH) ,
Benefit

Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special

This feat can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.


From D&D Tools....

[FaiT]

Page 86 of the Complete Arcane has a sidebar that specifically changes quicken spell to a swift action from a free action.

[animewatcha]

Thought it got re-printed. Consequences of using a quickie-wikie. Still though. From Dndtools, notice all the references to swift action when it came to quicken X as far as 3.5 sources. Also races of destiny and spell compendium mention the change in the spell sections.

Still, while you are under the effect of Arcane spellsurge, you cannot Rapid metamagic spells or quicken spells.

-edit- Dude. They have rules here about double/triple posting...

[FaiT]

We are talking about 3.5

-edit- Dude. They have rules here about double/triple posting...



I thought this was going to be a decent forum. Didn't expect the elitism and occlusionary attitude when I signed up yesterday. I guess I'll move on to somewhere not populated with jerks.

FWIW: You seem to have little concept of action timing and resolution; zero concept of effect negation (living in a purley additive and subtractive world) and a complete inability to cite anything you claim. If you think that you were at all endowed with intellect, you'd be wrong.

[animewatcha]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1


Double Posting
Posting twice in a row is generally frowned upon. If you are responding to multiple points, please use quotes and other post formatting to clarify this. Please use the Edit option to modify information in a post instead of immediately making a new one. If you do accidentally double post, you can delete the extra post under the Edit option.

I don't see elitism in this thread. Just a few corrections here and there and possible combinations thought of that might have worked if the mechanics cooperated 'that way.' I can only guess that occlusionary means the opposite of inclusion ( tried to dictionary it and google the word of 'occlusionary' to little effect. Admittedly, my googling tends to suck. )

As far as action timing and resolution, we know what swift/intermediate etc. Just that arcane spellsurge messes with the action timing and resolution. Apparently, in a way you really don't like. I know about effect negation. That Arcane spellsurge negates the ability/effect of Quicken and Rapid. You cannot choose to ignore it either. As far as inability to cite anything I claim. I admitted to the quicken spell error. I also cited where the tidbit about the spell swift action economy and where to find the spell description of Arcane spellsurge. Especially, since it's fine-print messes with the free action swift action, etc. earlier in this thread.

Also, 3.5 was mentioned as far as contingency was concerned with d20srd in the first post. Also, in later post in this thread, the OP gave 3.5 sources as what was allowed. So definitely not pathfinder.

-edit- now I'm off to head to a game. Since apparently the source for Arcane Spellsurge seems to be redone, Dragon Magic page 64.