3.5 Character Creation Help (2 Characters, Level 9)

[Duck999]

I was requested to make 2 characters to play D&D on my brothers birthday this Saturday. I am fairly new with D&D, and I have come to the playground for help. I will be playing with 2 other people, each of us playing 2 characters, for a total of 6. One should be rogue-esque. The other would be also rogue-esque, but not too similar to avoid repetitiveness. Both are level 9. I also need help with their equipment.

One set of ability rolls is:
11, 13, 15, 16, 16, 16
In no specific order.
The other set is (in no particular order):
14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 17

Background knowledge:
I was told that at least one, if not two, should have very good trap finding skills. They should both have good spot/listen, and maybe hide/move silently (probably). They both start at level 9, and their GP begins at 36,000. House rule: all knowledge skills can be taken for 3 skill points per rank. (3 skill points to rank all up 1). I should have at least one 10 foot pole.
My ideas:
I have considered making one a Factotum (house rules dictates they get 10+int skill points each level). I'm not sure about the other. With my knowledge on D&D, I will need good racial suggestions. My brother suggested chameleon, which I agree would be a good idea.
Some probably definite ideas:
One will be a chameleon.
The other will be a Factotum Spellthief, Scout, or something similar.
My problem:
I do not know enough about D&D to make 2 reasonable D&D characters by this Saturday. I came to the playground for help because I am not sure where to progress in making a character, and what kind of things they should have.

Reminders: This should be done by Saturday. They both start at level nine. The rest of the party consists of a rogue-esque character, a warrior or ranger of some sort, a cleric, and a sorcerer. I am fairly new to D&D, tell me if I missed anything.

[NoACWarrior]

Take a look at the rouge handbook for help building a rouge and to understand the rouge's place in a party (with supporting feats ect.) and suggested ability spreads. Humans are pretty good at most anything, with the smaller races getting more dex to be "more stealthy"

If you want just a splash of spell casting with spell stealing play a Spellthief.
If you want a full spell caster with trap finding play a Beguiler.
If you want a ranged damage class with trap finding play a Scout.
If you want an Asian themed class with trap finding play Ninja.
If you want pure Sneak Attack damage the go with Rouge.

Words of caution - Spellthief is ineffective at times when you don't have another caster, and if you won't face monsters with SLAs or spells don't even bother playing one. Beguiler is more illusion / mind affecting magic, playing against constructs/undead or things which are blind can be ineffective. Scout is more precision based damage, thus also not working on constructs/undead, and is not effective versus multiple targets. Ninja only gets sudden strike which only works against flat footed opponents (also ineffective vs constructs/undead). Regular Rouge is ineffective vs constructs and undead as normal.

An older thread but I found helpful when building DM-PCs for my campaign:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149464
its a magic item slot listing of things to buy.

[Doc_Maynot]

Go and make that Factotum with the second array. I recommend Dvati for the race, they have some interesting features and bonuses when flanking. The race is LA +1 which is just in time for Factotum 8s awesome feature. As usual when dealing with Factos, the only feat you really need to get is Font of Inspiration. Alternatively, be an elf so you can get Faerie Mysteries Initiate(Passions) (Dragon 319, Int determines bonus HP. Also, don't worry about the "exuberant sensual act" part. That technically can be a food binge.)


For the second, Warlocks are kind of rogue-ish right? They have the right class skills, so you can ride that into Chameleon to get you a few interesting tidbits and with 16 Cha, Wis and Int there really isn't anything you can't cast. Alternatively, Bard into Chameleon.

[Duck999]

The reasoning for saying chameleon:
The rest of my party is a cleric, sorcerer, warrior, and rogue-esque character. Having both my characters be rogue-esque would give us 3 rogues. Also, a chameleon would be useful if the warrior dies. Which, I have been told, is very possible.

What exactly does a ninja have over other similar classes, other than being Asian themed of course.:smallsmile:

[HammeredWharf]

You could make a fighter-ish factotum. Use Improved Trip and a glaive, get intelligence to trip checks via Brains Over Brawn. He could use melee-friendly spells like Alter Self, Wings of Cover, etc. His buddy could be a Whisper Gnome Beguiler, with Darkstalker, maxed Hide and Move Silently and awesome hide checks.

Chameleons don't make great warriors. They're better as casters. Factotum 5 / Chameleon 4 would be the standard build in this case.


What exactly does a ninja have over other similar classes, other than being Asian themed of course.:smallsmile:

They have a nifty Ethrealness-granting ability, but the real answer is "nothing that matters".

[Duck999]

I think I will be making a chameleon and a Factotum Rogue-esque. Based on that, I need help with equipment and such. Also, I need to know more specifics about chameleons.

[NoACWarrior]

Chameleon is a good choice for most campaigns as it gives the flexibility to be what the party needs on a day by day basis. Look up Chameleon handbook for some hints on chameleons, but generally they are somewhat support, somewhat tanky, and somewhat rougeish.

The flexibility from Chameleon comes from changing your class feature at the start of each day - Divine or Arcane Casting, Martial and armor proficiency, Skill proficiency, even 1 or 2 free feats per day. The only catch is that you will be spending 1 day at a time stuck in the role you choose each day, so choose wisely. What a Friend did with Chameleon was take Changling (LA+0) to give it some flavor, even changing his appearance based on the role in the party he was playing (looking like a dwarf as a tank, looking like an elf as a diplomat, and looking like a halfling as a rouge).

As for Ninja, its really underwhelming, at least the complete adventurer version. Acts exactly like a rouge, without the sneak attack, but has an Asian flair to it. Iv'e seen some funny things done as a ninja, but the rouge can do it just as good if not better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Trapfinding Character:
Silverbrow Human, this Ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 1/ Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) 8 starting out. Future levels should be Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Paragnostic Apostle 4/ Divine Oracle 4. Use the Trap Expert ACF in Dungeonscape for Ranger, which trades Track for Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill. Trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song, trade your Fascinate song for Healing Hymn, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, and trade your Suggestion song for the feat Song of the Heart. You can find an explanation and source for those in the Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0).
Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats, I'd get Love of Nature and Aligned Devotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30) (you'll need to know a Cure spell for Aligned Devotion). Flaws must be taken during character creation, but they don't have to show up at 1st level if creating a character above 1st level. Say you already visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in CS to get the Skill Focus prerequisite for Divine Oracle without spending a feat on it.
Feats should be Able Learner (1), Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) (F), Nymph's Kiss (H), Darkstalker (F), Melodic Casting (3), Leadership (6), and Words of Creation (9).
Equipment should be a Badge of Valor (MIC), Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), Arcane Thieves' Tools (MIC), a thrice-Masterwork Elvencraft Composite Longbow with three Wand Chambers, and some wands of useful spells (Camouflage in SC, usable due to your Ranger level). Spend anything left over on Necessary Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) or choice items from Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101).
Spells known should include Inspirational Boost in SC. Your Inspire Courage will be (+2 Bard, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, doubled for Words of Creation, +1 for Badge of Valor) = +9 to attack and damage rolls with any weapons. This includes your bow attacks and your animal cohort's natural weapons.
Your Wild Cohort should be a Fleshraker Dinosaur from MM3, and you already used Handle Animal to add the Warbeast template from MM2 to it.

Other Character:
Silverbrow Human, Savage Bard 8/ Sorcerer 1 starting out. Future levels should be Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Paragnostic Apostle 4/ Divine Oracle 4. Use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 substitution level in RotD to get Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon). As above, trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song, trade your Fascinate song for Healing Hymn, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, and trade your Suggestion song for the feat Song of the Heart.
Two flaws, same as above. They visited the Frog God's Fane together, both have the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle without having spent a feat on it.
Feats should be Dragonfire Inspiration (1), Nymph's Kiss (F), Wild Cohort (H), Melodic Casting (F), Darkstalker (3), Leadership (6), and Words of Creation (9).
Equipment should be as above, but don't get the thieves' tools, use a twice-Masterwork Elvencraft Composite Shortbow with two Wand Chambers, holding partially charged wands of Web and Wings of Cover.
This character's Inspire Courage will be the same as above, but with Dragonfire Inspiration he'll add +9d6 sonic damage to everyone's attacks, including bow attacks and animal cohorts' natural weapons. He can eventually cast Creaking Cacophony (SC) to give opponents vulnerability to sonic damage so they'll take 50% more damage from that.
Wild Cohort should be the same as above.

Both of those have Leadership. Their cohorts should be as follows:
Silverbrow Human Savage Bard 6/ Sorcerer 1 starting out, same future level build as the second character above. Use the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 sub level to switch their damage to Acid (Copper) and Electricity (Bronze). Same flaws and feats as the second character above, with the following exceptions: Put Words of Creation at 6th level and skip Leadership. Skip Nymph's Kiss, one should have Dreadful Wrath from PGtF, the other should have Hidden Talent (XPH p67) for Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) with a Dorje (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm) (psionic wand) of it.
Their items and animal cohorts should be the same as the second character above. They went to the Frog God's Fane with the other two.
Their Inspire Courage will each be (+1 Bard, +1 Song of the Heart, +1 Inspirational Boost, doubled for Words of Creation, +1 Badge of Valor) = +7d6 Acid and Electric damage respectively to everyone's attacks, including bow attacks and animal cohorts' natural weapons.

That's four characters who are capable marksmen, when they're all singing they get +9 to attack and damage rolls, +9d6 sonic damage, +7d6 acid damage, and +7d6 electric damage to all attacks. They have four Warbeast Fleshraker Dinosaur Cohorts which make four attacks on a full attack, five on a pounce, and all of their attacks benefit from those same Inspire Courage benefits. Someone can also use Haste to buff the whole party.

[Duck999]

It is decided (partly).
One of my characters will be a chameleon.
The other will be a Factotum Spellthief or Scout, or something similar.
Now for equipment. I am not sure what kind of equipment I want, especially not at level 9.