Uh Oh (spoilers)

[Archangel62]

Well, I think the world just ended up in a lot more peril, and not just because of what was lost, but because of what's coming. Xykons army is going to hit Azure city, while they have likely repaired at least some of their defenses the new issue is a lot worse. Shojo is gone, and with him all of his knowledge and tactics. Hinjo is the one in charge now and he has the following issues at hand.

1) Shojo likely had a lot of state secrets, some were probably relatively unimportant but others (secret entrances and exits for the city, locations of extra allies, weapon caches) all of those things went with Shojo. More importantly, direct data on the gates is gone and I doubt that Hinjo is going to trust Roy, this leads us to problem 2.

2) Hinjo needs to figure out what to do about the Order of the Stick. He's in shock right now and is likely not in his best state of mind, he could still blame the order for what happened. If for no other reason than needing someone to blame and the fact that it's easier to blame an outsider than it is to blame someone you know, no matter how much you might dislike or disagree with them. He has to seize the reigns and he has to do it soon, if Miko manages to get out what's coming he has a rather difficult set of questions facing him.

3) He might not want to kill the order but he's unlikely to help him, he can't trust Roy enough to take what he says at face value and if a war is coming he needs all his resources to protect the city. He could draft the OotS but he can't be sure of what their goals are and if he can trust them to do what is necessary.

4) Roys actions are understandable but they aren't going to help the situation right now. Hinjo is already broken up, if he sees Miko getting pummeled by Roy he might step in and that could get messy, not because of injuries but because Roy might accidentally bomb a bridge when he really needs allies.

5) Roy is right now the only one able to deal with the Snarl and Xykon. Hinjo probably won't help and no one else has the necessary knowledge. Roy and the order are the only hope for reality, more importantly, if they fail no one remains to carry on afterwards.

6) Miko is a wildcard right now, I can't necessarily see her going blackguard, but I don't think she can't still be a thorn in the sides of the order. Add in that she can do a lot with just letting Nale and Sabine free (thinking them wrongfully imprisoned victims of the order and lacking her ability to detect evil and Nales bluff checks...) and she could be a catastrophic force for chaos and evil while trying to hold up for righteousness.

7) Xykon is going to arrive soon, and when he does the game changes. Roy might have a choice of staying to help or heading on to another gate to try to beat Xykon to it, hoping that Hinjo will destroy the one here. But either way it will be eating at him. Roy might not be a paragon of virtue but he does have a working conscience. Elan might have bugged and annoyed him, but he realized what he had done was wrong and since then has shown more loyalty to his teammates. Roy will have to wrestle with leaving Azure City to Xykons tender mercies or stay and fight and risk death and Xykon winning the war even if he wrecks his army (all he needs is just one gate)

[Jaysyn]

Well, I think the world just ended up in a lot more peril, and not just because of what was lost, but because of what's coming. Xykons army is going to hit Azure city, while they have likely repaired at least some of their defenses the new issue is a lot worse. Shojo is gone, and with him all of his knowledge and tactics. Hinjo is the one in charge now and he has the following issues at hand.

1) Shojo likely had a lot of state secrets, some were probably relatively unimportant but others (secret entrances and exits for the city, locations of extra allies, weapon caches) all of those things went with Shojo. More importantly, direct data on the gates is gone and I doubt that Hinjo is going to trust Roy, this leads us to problem 2.

2) Hinjo needs to figure out what to do about the Order of the Stick. He's in shock right now and is likely not in his best state of mind, he could still blame the order for what happened. If for no other reason than needing someone to blame and the fact that it's easier to blame an outsider than it is to blame someone you know, no matter how much you might dislike or disagree with them. He has to seize the reigns and he has to do it soon, if Miko manages to get out what's coming he has a rather difficult set of questions facing him.

3) He might not want to kill the order but he's unlikely to help him, he can't trust Roy enough to take what he says at face value and if a war is coming he needs all his resources to protect the city. He could draft the OotS but he can't be sure of what their goals are and if he can trust them to do what is necessary.

4) Roys actions are understandable but they aren't going to help the situation right now. Hinjo is already broken up, if he sees Miko getting pummeled by Roy he might step in and that could get messy, not because of injuries but because Roy might accidentally bomb a bridge when he really needs allies.

5) Roy is right now the only one able to deal with the Snarl and Xykon. Hinjo probably won't help and no one else has the necessary knowledge. Roy and the order are the only hope for reality, more importantly, if they fail no one remains to carry on afterwards.

6) Miko is a wildcard right now, I can't necessarily see her going blackguard, but I don't think she can't still be a thorn in the sides of the order. Add in that she can do a lot with just letting Nale and Sabine free (thinking them wrongfully imprisoned victims of the order and lacking her ability to detect evil and Nales bluff checks...) and she could be a catastrophic force for chaos and evil while trying to hold up for righteousness.

7) Xykon is going to arrive soon, and when he does the game changes. Roy might have a choice of staying to help or heading on to another gate to try to beat Xykon to it, hoping that Hinjo will destroy the one here. But either way it will be eating at him. Roy might not be a paragon of virtue but he does have a working conscience. Elan might have bugged and annoyed him, but he realized what he had done was wrong and since then has shown more loyalty to his teammates. Roy will have to wrestle with leaving Azure City to Xykons tender mercies or stay and fight and risk death and Xykon winning the war even if he wrecks his army (all he needs is just one gate)

Uh, you know Hinjo could do the smart thing & throw up a Zone of Truth & ask Roy exactly what is going on & why they had to be all cloak & dagger about the gates. But that would be, you know, rational.

[Duke of URL]

Remember... clerics are on their way. They won't Raise Shojo , for reasons gone into otherwise, but a "Speak With Dead" can still clear up a lot.

[Furin_Mirado]

Uh, you know Hinjo could do the smart thing & throw up a Zone of Truth & ask Roy exactly what is going on & why they had to be all cloak & dagger about the gates. But that would be, you know, rational.
Actually, Zone of Truth is not infallible and so would be a poor choice. It allows for a Will save and since it's a second level spell the DC is ridiculously low unless the caster has a really high wisdom or can modify the DC via feats. Anyway, my point is that the OOTS are far too powerful to succumb to such a spell.

My prediction for the upcoming events is as follows. Hinjo will probably arrest the OOTS and lock them up for the safety of the city. After all, they could be spies for Xykon that were able to trick his father. Even if he doesn't believe that, he may still doubt their trustworthiness given how distraught he is and the latest acts of treachery. After Xykon attacks the OOTs will either get intentionally released as a last ditch effort to stop the lich or else they well escape via ingenuity or random event. (Like the wall to their cells being blown to pieces from a stray spell.)

Of course, no matter what happens Xykon will *have* to be stopped since this gate can't be destroyed. Although I suppose it is possible Xykon could capture the gate and then the OOTS would have to figure out how to recapture the gate before the lich can enact whatever rites he must use to subjugate the Snarl.

[Jaysyn]

Actually, Zone of Truth is not infallible and so would be a poor choice. It allows for a Will save and since it's a second level spell the DC is ridiculously low unless the caster has a really high wisdom or can modify the DC via feats. Anyway, my point is that the OOTS are far too powerful to succumb to such a spell.


The OOtS are the good guys, why would they take a save Vs. that spell? They'd want to be on the level with Hinjo, they don't care about being duplicitious to the Sapphire Guard. Shojo was the one who was worried about that & he's dead now.

Besides all that, the only members of the OOtS that would have decent Will saves are V & Durkon. I doubt Roy has taken Iron Will or any feats like that.

[Furin_Mirado]

The OOtS are the good guys, why would they take a save Vs. that spell? They'd want to be on the level with Hinjo, they don't care about being duplicitious to the Sapphire Guard. Shojo was the one who was worried about that & he's dead now.

Besides all that, the only members of the OOtS that would have decent Will saves are V & Durkon. I doubt Roy has taken Iron Will or any feats like that.
Of course they wouldn't bother saving, but Hinjo doesn't know that. If Hinjo thought about it logically there are two possibilities:
1. The OOTS are good and won't bother saving against the spell so they will tell the truth.
2. The OOTS are evil and will save against the spell so they will lie without him being able to detect it.

So the only time we'll know the truth is when it doesn't really matter because they want the truth to be known anyway. As for the second argument, a 'poor' Will save at their level is still too high to get accurate results. I'd say even Roy has about a 50/50 chance of saving against that spell so it's just not reliable enough.

[RMS Oceanic]

If Hinjo does choose to get the OotS to explain themselves, I believe he'll be as methodical as time allows in learning the truth. He has seen what happens when you jump to conclusions without thinking about it (i.e. Miko), so he'll be cautious about making the wrong call.

[Glome]

4) Roys actions are understandable but they aren't going to help the situation right now. Hinjo is already broken up, if he sees Miko getting pummeled by Roy he might step in and that could get messy, not because of injuries but because Roy might accidentally bomb a bridge when he really needs allies.



I don't see why Hinjo would have the slightest bit of loyalty to the fallen Miko right now after she just bisected his uncle and rightful leige. If Hinjo wasn't attending to Shojo he might be trying to cut down Miko as well, at the least he would try to see to it that she's arrested.

If Hinjo has any problems with Roy at this point, it's not going to be because of his fight with Miko. Even before this, Hinjo disliked Miko, now that she's betrayed everything the Paladins stand for she won't garner any sympathy from Hinjo.

[SteveMB]

Of course, no matter what happens Xykon will *have* to be stopped since this gate can't be destroyed. Although I suppose it is possible Xykon could capture the gate and then the OOTS would have to figure out how to recapture the gate before the lich can enact whatever rites he must use to subjugate the Snarl.
Xykon seems fairly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) confident (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) that he knows what to do with a gate once he gains access to it (I gather that he was stymied by Dorukan's wards around the gate, not anything inherent to the gate itself). However, he could be wrong -- which might be worse, since he could simply release the Snarl rather than controlling it to his own ends.

[SteveMB]

Of course they wouldn't bother saving, but Hinjo doesn't know that. If Hinjo thought about it logically there are two possibilities:
1. The OOTS are good and won't bother saving against the spell so they will tell the truth.
2. The OOTS are evil and will save against the spell so they will lie without him being able to detect it.

So the only time we'll know the truth is when it doesn't really matter because they want the truth to be known anyway.
Yeah, it's one of those situations that requires logical analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html). :smallwink:

[Jaysyn]

Of course they wouldn't bother saving, but Hinjo doesn't know that. If Hinjo thought about it logically there are two possibilities:
1. The OOTS are good and won't bother saving against the spell so they will tell the truth.
2. The OOTS are evil and will save against the spell so they will lie without him being able to detect it.

So the only time we'll know the truth is when it doesn't really matter because they want the truth to be known anyway. As for the second argument, a 'poor' Will save at their level is still too high to get accurate results. I'd say even Roy has about a 50/50 chance of saving against that spell so it's just not reliable enough.

Ok then, he temporarily puts a Mark of Justice on Roy that activates if he lies. No save. As far as we know Roy doesn't have any SR. Foolproof.

[Archangel62]

I don't see why Hinjo would have the slightest bit of loyalty to the fallen Miko right now after she just bisected his uncle and rightful leige. If Hinjo wasn't attending to Shojo he might be trying to cut down Miko as well, at the least he would try to see to it that she's arrested.

If Hinjo has any problems with Roy at this point, it's not going to be because of his fight with Miko. Even before this, Hinjo disliked Miko, now that she's betrayed everything the Paladins stand for she won't garner any sympathy from Hinjo.


Maybe not, but I'm speaking from experience when I say that in a time of chaos you tend to grab onto the familiar. He might not like Miko, and will probably want her arrested, but also remember that he does know her and understands her better than he does the order. He might believe that she was manipulated and might blame Roy for it, either doing it directly or for bringing the problem down on the cities head. (Remember, in times of grief and stress one is rarely rational)

[Deper]

Remember... clerics are on their way. They won't Raise Shojo , for reasons gone into otherwise, but a "Speak With Dead" can still clear up a lot.

Shojo has to want to come back to life. I don't think he would.

Speculative Spoilers:

His ruse is gone, he would be facing a trial, and he would never regain the life he once had. Besides, he's off to his eternal reward and can discuss and make plans with Roy's dad, who can then pass it off to Roy. Why would he want to give that up for being unable to do anything at all to stop the Snarl?