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Fronko
2007-02-02, 06:23 AM
Hi all!

So, numerous people have pointed out, that cleric is a most competent fighter class actually, backing it up with a few spells they name.

However, I have so far only seen them as a supportive combatant at best, buffing the party and doinf the healing during/after combat.

Am I playing it wrongly? How will I become more of a bad-ass fighter, than our parties fighter himself?

Thanks for any hints.

Bosh
2007-02-02, 06:28 AM
You could:

-Use divine metamagic to give you long lasting self-only buffs.
-Use those some sickeningly-powerful self-only buff before moving into combat even without divine metamagic.
-Remember that any healing spell that is cast on a character who would've lived even if that healing spell hadn't been cast on him is a complete waste in-combat.
-Use cheap cure light wounds wands for out of combat healing and save your spells for kicking ass.

But making the poor fighter cry isn't much fun for the group in general, I'd recommend showing some restraint

Jack Mann
2007-02-02, 06:30 AM
Divine favor at low levels. When you get up high enough, start using divine power. Then quickened divine favor and divine power. At high levels, it's quickened divine favor, divine power, then you run up at the enemy. Quicken righteous might, and you full attack. You're down the one initial attack on the fighter, but you're doing more damage. Your ability to cast spells as you fight more than makes you a superior combatant.

EDIT: This is assuming core-only, mind. With divine metamagic, this becomes easier. You don't need supplemental material to outshine the fighter, however.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 06:30 AM
Here's a core-only answer:

Start with a decently high STR and WIS (16 and 15 respectively, let's say; 16 and 16 or higher ideally). You get Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Add Quicken Spell at level 9. If you've managed a decent Charisma, add the Divine Might feat (Power Attack, its prereq, should be taken anyway).

At low levels, you won't be quite as good. Use Bless to buff the entire party in the first round, then attack away.
Then, switch to Divine Favor instead of Bless.
At level 7, switch to casting Divine Power and closing to melee range. Full attack the next round.
At level 9, switch to casting Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor, closing to melee range, then full attacking the next round. If you have an extra round to buff (a tough fight you know is coming), add a Righteous Might spell you prepared one instance of at this level.
At level 15, switch to casting Quickened Divine Power and Righteous Might, and closing in, with a Quickened Divine Favor plus full attack the next combat round. You should have a +5 to +7 AB/damage advantage over the fighter at this point; more if you don't GMW his weapon up too.

Other details: use Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to make your armor and weapons better--keep both at +1, stock up on special abilities. Combine with the Bead of Karma from the Strand of Prayer Beads (check your DMG or SRD) for a caster level boost when you cast them at the beginning of the day.

You're also a superior tank. You have an amazing will save instead of a crappy one. That, combined with your other spells, like Protection From/Magic Circle Against, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Air Walk, and the like, mean that you're vastly harder to disable than the fighter, and more mobile (add the Travel domain for flying/teleporting goodness).

Jack Mann
2007-02-02, 06:33 AM
Er, yes. Quicken divine favor and divine power, not righteous might, the highest level of the three.

Fronko
2007-02-02, 06:39 AM
Wow, those were some quick (and rather enlightening) answers, thanks guys.


A few comments: Yeah, I rather want core rules/spells, not much extra. And itīs exactly the kinds of answers, I was asking for. Keep em coming! :smallbiggrin: Oh, and I know, making fighters cry is eeeevil, I am not aiming for that. But once in a while I may want to ... you know .. jsut have the edge in the fight. :)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 06:41 AM
That's pretty much all there is to it, really. That, and not picking crappy spells to fill your non-buff slots.

daggaz
2007-02-02, 07:32 AM
Erm.... whats this Divine Favor Feat you speak of? If its core, how come its not in the srd?

Also, how bout a rundown of some of the crappier (in your opinion) spells to avoid?

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 07:36 AM
Because it's a spell?

Seriously, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Except when I'm proven right. Then I claim otherwise.

Marius
2007-02-02, 07:37 AM
Erm.... whats this Divine Favor Feat you speak of? If its core, how come its not in the srd?

Also, how bout a rundown of some of the crappier (in your opinion) spells to avoid?

The feat is "divine might" and I think it's in Complete divine

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 07:41 AM
You just skim the entire thread, don't you? If Divine Favor was a feat, why would it need a spell slot and could have a metamagic feat applied to it?

Funny thing, there was a mockery turn undead system making fun of the psychic attack and defense modes of Psionics Handbook at Wizards boards.

Awetugiw
2007-02-02, 07:59 AM
Remember though, that even at high levels you will still need a round to buff, and have much less feats than the fighter. In a long combat you'll outshine the fighter, in something that lasts less than 3 rounds, like most fights (especially if you have some decent casters), the fighter will be a much better fighter.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 08:02 AM
You take one round to buff; full attacks are almost never made in the first round of combat. You're one sword-swing behind the fighter, which isn't significant--you can and will be better. You have fewer feats, but unless the fighter is an optimized build, this doesn't help him enough to make him better (in a noncore game, he can be a better fighter with an AoO-mastery/battlefield control setup, but that's not enough to outweigh your full spellcasting; in a core-only game... there is absolutely no way those feats can help him be better than you).


Edit: Divine Favor is a first-level spell. Divine Might is a Complete Warrior feat; my bad for slipping it into core-only advice, ignore that. Take, oh, Power Attack, Combat Expertise/Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, stuff like that.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 08:03 AM
We have Divine Meta-cheese. You buy some nightsticks, and Persist at least two of these spells on yourself at the morning. Then, you quicken the other (divine favor, most likely) at whatever battle you enter.

Hell, persist all three of them. Nothing prevents you from doing that (as you can, you know, afford it by level 9).

Fronko
2007-02-02, 08:10 AM
Start with a decently high STR and WIS (16 and 15 respectively, let's say; 16 and 16 or higher ideally). [...] If you've managed a decent Charisma, add the Divine Might feat (Power Attack, its prereq, should be taken anyway).


One thing I am curious about: In that build, you value STR over CHA (WIS is first priority, of course). This is obviously the way to go, when aiming for battle prowess.

But that (somewhat) low charisma will hurt your turning ability, right? So, on a not-necessarily-aimed-for-combat cleric, would you exchange the two or would you still go for strength and just clobber them undead into oblivion?

Rigeld2
2007-02-02, 08:17 AM
I would still go for strength. Turns rarely get used in my experience, except as fodder for Divine Metamagic.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-02, 08:31 AM
Plus undead get disproportionately harder to turn as you go up in level. So it's not that great an investment.

Edit: unless you're going for a turn-specialized Pelor build, or something.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 08:39 AM
One thing I am curious about: In that build, you value STR over CHA (WIS is first priority, of course). This is obviously the way to go, when aiming for battle prowess.

But that (somewhat) low charisma will hurt your turning ability, right? So, on a not-necessarily-aimed-for-combat cleric, would you exchange the two or would you still go for strength and just clobber them undead into oblivion?

In that build I"m actually prioritizing STR over WIS by one point, if you're short on points or rolled or something. You're a melee cleric. Just have enough WIS, with items, to have the bonus spell slot of your highest-level spell at any point (a +X wis bonus gets you one bonus Spell Level X spell slot).

On a non-combat-primary cleric, I'd swap STR and WIS, but forget CHA. Turning is a sucker's game. At low levels, it's helpful; at mid-levels, it gets worse unless you're focused on it; at high levels, undead have so many more HD than you do that it's useless.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 08:44 AM
Slightly relevant question: Is the damage / heal variant of turn undead in Complete Divine any good?

If it's not, will adding your charisma bonus times your cleric level / 3 fix it (and make charisma a better, though not really great, choice)?

Wolf53226
2007-02-02, 09:05 AM
Having not played with the variant, but just reading it, my opinion is worth the paper it is written on.

{lets that comment sink in}

I think it is rather meh, they get a save for half damage, which isn't all that hard of a save to make, and certain undead will get damage reduction versus it. While the damage is only capped by what level you are, which makes it ok, it is not a great option even then.

As an example, at level 5 with a charisma bonus of 2, a cleric is going to average about 15-16 points of damage to a spectre (cr7) if it fails a save it only needs a 10 on. If it makes the save your looking at 7-9 damage, granted this hits all undead in the area, but it sure doesn't seem that great to me.

Fronko
2007-02-02, 10:33 AM
In that build I"m actually prioritizing STR over WIS by one point,

:smallredface:
Yeah, youre right. Thanks for your comments anyway! :)

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-02, 11:12 AM
Remember: Do not waste your spell slots on healing spells when the fighter is at 90% of his health.

Killing the guy trying to kill your guys faster is always the best way to stop him from killing your guys. Don't waste actions on heals.

In fact, only use your wand of cure light when your allies are bleeding to death, and save the big heals for when the fighter has 1 hp left against a monster that's doing an average of 30 damage per round. Otherwise, use that wand between battles.

terrant
2007-02-02, 12:55 PM
1) Get the team to share the cost of a Wand of CLW.

2) Make sure they all have potions of CLW, not for themselves but for you should the worst happen and you, the walking bandaid, go down and become the comatose bandaid, that's not the time for them to realise they can't use the wand.

3) In my group I don't buff, the very nice sorceror in the team almost automatically applies mage armour at the hint of danger and the +4AC is for hours, not rounds.

4) Holding a charge is a nice trick at times (in my case it was as an invisible cleric stalking a lich to give him a friendly Cure Serious Wounds surprise. Holding the charge meant the spell was readed out of his hearing range).

5) Searing Light - love it - no save from the target if you make the ranged touch hit.

6) Scrolls - buy some - your never going to wake up and pray for/prepare a Water Walking spell - which is a real pain on the day you discover you should have prepared it.

5) Feats - too many to choose, all with merit. Gauge your DM's style. I picked Combat Casting at 1st level, only to discover that my DM never bothers with concentration checks.

6) Its good that you can survive in melee unlike your unarmour wizard friends. However always keep an eye of being able to step back safely when you need to cast else you'll suffer from attacks of opportunity, let the true fighters pick the more awkward positions.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 12:59 PM
Oh, yeah--Combat Casting is a trap. Skill Focus: Concentration gives +3 instead of +4, but it applies all the time, not just for casting defensively.

Searing Light? Why would you bother? You can just hit something with a full attack and do more damage.

"Survive" in melee? "True fighters"? We're talking about melee clerics. He IS the true fighter, and will be far better at it than any core fighter.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 01:04 PM
Yeah, a cleric doesn't "survive" in melee, he excels in it. And can cast spells.

You know, unlike Fighter, who can't do either of those.

terrant
2007-02-02, 03:22 PM
Maybe its a language thing, "true fighters" wasn't a compliment for the idiots who run into the middle, and the point was about doing melee but always keeping a space to move into for casting.

?can you do a worked example of a 5th level core cleric with light weapon doing better than 5d6 damage on undead - I'm keen to learn the error of my ways?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 04:07 PM
Maybe its a language thing, "true fighters" wasn't a compliment for the idiots who run into the middle, and the point was about doing melee but always keeping a space to move into for casting.

?can you do a worked example of a 5th level core cleric with light weapon doing better than 5d6 damage on undead - I'm keen to learn the error of my ways?

5d6 is 17 average damage.
Using Summon Monster III to get a Huge fiendish monstrous centipede to grapple and damage enemies will very likely yield more than that. It's also vastly more effective against anything not undead, and you can use the spell to summon a different monster if you want/need to.
Besides--at level 5, you can just turn the undead.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-02, 04:16 PM
Edit: Divine Favor is a first-level spell. Divine Might is a Complete Warrior feat; my bad for slipping it into core-only advice, ignore that. Take, oh, Power Attack, Combat Expertise/Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, stuff like that.
Divine Might is also in the extended SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight). Check with your DM whether that counts as "core" or not.

Wolf53226
2007-02-02, 04:37 PM
?can you do a worked example of a 5th level core cleric with light weapon doing better than 5d6 damage on undead - I'm keen to learn the error of my ways?

Cure Serious Wounds on the undead? Should average to 18.5

Or

Adding various spells on top of your weapon and strength bonus, this depends on what domains you are. Things like Divine Favor, Bulls Strength, Enlarge Person, etc....

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-02, 05:10 PM
Power Attack, wielding a weapon with two hands, spells to increase your Strength, size category and base attack bonus... yeah, I'm pretty sure you can deal more than 17 damage with your morningstar.

terrant
2007-02-03, 08:01 AM
Hmmh Yuki, I think not, you're pulling out all the stops just to maybe get to 17 when that was just the average I challenged you to beat. And your costing me multiple spell in the process.

Yes I should use summon monsters more often, except our sorceror does it all the time (he even took augmeted summoning) and so our fights often get bogged down in rolling dice for multiple dogs/badgers/bison/etc. If I were to join in as well I suspect it would really anonoy the fighter and probably the DM.

Turning - yes, works well now on zombies, skeletons, I don't even bother fighting them anymore, but liches aren't so accomodating.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-03, 08:04 AM
But these spells last hours, most of the time, and you can quicken them and hit things at the same time.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-03, 08:53 AM
but liches aren't so accomodating.

By the time you're fighting liches, you have melee buffs and multiple attacks per round, and do much more damage just hitting than with Searing Light.

MaN
2007-02-03, 10:39 AM
. . . Using Summon Monster III to get a Huge fiendish monstrous centipede to grapple and damage enemies . . .Not a very effective tactic. Centipedes don't grapple unless you waste a spell slot (and the time to cast it) to enable yourself to communicate with the centipede. They don't have the improved grapple feat either.

It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
Monstrous centipedes tend to attack anything that resembles food, biting with their jaws and injecting their poison.

terrant
2007-02-04, 07:58 AM
But these spells last hours, - ?which? unless I'm reading my PHB wrong most are minute/level which is why I find the sorcerers mage armour so much more impressive.

terrant
2007-02-04, 08:03 AM
By the time you're fighting liches, you have melee buffs and multiple attacks per round, and do much more damage just hitting than with Searing Light.

Tell my DM, we meet our first lich as 5th level characters, and when half the team failed their fear aura save it became a hairy fight for the remainder.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-04, 08:20 AM
Um, considering that liches have to be 11th-level spellcasters to become liches... yeah. Not so much an appropriate encounter, between the fear aura, the paralysis touch, the, you know, sixth-level spells...