Star Trek : Captain Worf (working title) (and other Star Trek discussion)

[Cikomyr]

Read it and celebrate (http://screenrant.com/star-trek-captain-worf-tv-show-michael-dorn/)

That would be AWESOME. I always saw Worf as the main character of overall modern Trek. He's the character with themost evolution there's ever been in the franchise, and he's been at the center of most of the most important events in the Trek history.

Throughout TNG and DS9, we have witnessed his constant evolution into a reasoned and seasoned veteran who can think, be self-concious and is critical of his natural reactions to things without losing his core characteristics. He's the portrait child of Extreme Character Development. I always felt his promotion into the Command Chair to be the natural evolution.

[Killer Angel]

Interesting. It could mean some fresh air for the TV series.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'll believe it (in that it's going to happen) when I see it. By the article's own admission, it's still fairly nebulous, if not as nebulous as it might have been.

After all, we never got that series for Captain Sulu, did we?

Sadly, 'cos that would have been awesome.

[Cikomyr]

I'll believe it (in that it's going to happen) when I see it. By the article's own admission, it's still fairly nebulous, if not as nebulous as it might have been.

After all, we never got that series for Captain Sulu, did we?

Sadly, 'cos that would have been awesome.

Capt. Sulu vs. Capt. Worf

The world is not ready.

[Yora]

With Voyager and Enterprise, I've been seing a couple of issues developing with Star Trek. The Next Generation was a good show for the 80s, but even though they tried giving it a new spin with Voayger and Enterprise at the start, they very soon fell back into the old TNG pattern, which I believe is why they failed, at least for me.

Now Worf is far from my favorite characters, but as concepts for a new Star Trek show go, using Worf as a starting inspiration and exemplar of tone and theme, seems like a very strong choice.
If the people in charge are seriously considering a new Star Trek show (which the article seems to indicate), I think this thematic concept is one they should definately explore deeper before making the final descision what kind of show it will be, and if they want to go through with it at all.

[Killer Angel]

The world is not ready.

That's why we boldly go where no man has gone before.

[Brother Oni]

That's why we boldly go where no man has gone before.

In the words of George Takei, "Oh MY..." :smalltongue:

[DigoDragon]

It is amusing to me that Worf would be the commanding officer here. It seemed that every time he held the commanding chair in Star Trek, he'd lose the ship to capture or destruction.

So I hope the poor guy gets cut a break from that.
He does have a TV Trope named after him, and not a flattering one. :smallamused:

[Hunter Noventa]

It's not surprising that he'd try for something like this, he recently (within the past year) did some voice work as Worf for Star Trek Online.

Would be nice to have some sci-fi on the air again though.

[comicshorse]

Capt. Sulu vs. Capt. Worf

The world is not ready.

They actually did a comic mini-series, 'The Last Generation', where that happened (albeit in a alternative universe where the Klingons had conquered the earth)

[Talya]

This same news was first published a couple years ago. I'm unsurprised to see it's just as "nebulous" now as it was then.

[Yora]

It is amusing to me that Worf would be the commanding officer here. It seemed that every time he held the commanding chair in Star Trek, he'd lose the ship to capture or destruction.
That's the great thing! :smallbiggrin:

Maybe it goes completely against everything Star Trek originally stood for, but he's a guy who takes action first and asks questions later. But the character has developed enough to look at things on a bigger scale and not just shot at anything that looks somewhat suspicious. Picard was someone you'd send to prevent an escalation or help everyone calm down. But Worf would be the perfect guy to send when chaos has already broken out and you need someone to take fast and descisive action. He's a bit rough around the edges, but still very concerned to do the right thing.
But unlike Picard, Janeway, and Archer, he's not sitting on his high horse, looking down on everyone with his moral superiority, trying to get everyone two subscribe to his ideals. Which back in TNG was well meaning, but in Voyager and Enterprise was just lame. While it would be a stretch to say that he treats others as equals, he has developed to a point where he no longer expect others to live up to his own standards. As long as he does what he thinks right, and the people under his command are loyal to him, that's good enough for him.
Which is why I think it's actually a really good idea.

[Cikomyr]

I like that you leave out Sisko of the list of captaind with moral superiority. It kind of make sense when you consider that Sisko was Worf's mentor when it came to being a Starfleet Captain. Like Obrian said: you couldnt ask for a better teacher.

As for Worf always losing the ship: it aint true! His first command, he blew up a civilian ship with 160 civilians on board. "Rule of Engagement", the final conversarion between Worf and Sisko is gold. I never seen Worf look so genuinely pitiful after a chewing out by his commanding officer.

Not when he killed Duras
Not when he tried to kill Kurn
Not when he screwed over the entire war effort to save Jadzia.


but then? Holy **** did Worf looked small. Smallest 6'5 i ever saw

[Yora]

I also consider Deep Space Nine to be a good show. And unlike TNG, it does hold up better to time.
TNG was a good show in the late 80s, but it's idealistic pursuit of improving the lives of those less fortunate than us by teaching them to adapt our superior social values just doesn't do it anymore.
I liked the first three or four episodes of Enterprise, which were all "We are a small player in this galaxy and have a lot to learn before we can take a productive and active role", but then they went right back to the TNG paradigm, which is what probably killed it.

Now Deep Space Nine was all "we do have superior resources, but money and firepower won't achive anything here until we learn the rules by which people play here and accept them". And the writers understood that, as there are many scenes in which Sisko explains to his superiors why he can't give them the results they want instantaneously.
Voyager too did start out by recognizing that you probably get a better show if you throw the characters into less than ideal conditions where they can't simply folow the standards of the Federation. Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that by episode 3.

[Traab]

I would be more than willing to give it a shot. I honestly wonder what direction it would take though.

[Palanan]

gawd, no. just no.



I'd been hoping that after the disaster of the last movie, they would let the franchise quietly slip off to bed. It's run its course, and at this point the only thing that would remotely hold my interest is if they advanced the timeline a century or so from the Next Generation/DS9 period.

Also, this article is six months old by now. If that's the latest update, then maybe the interest wasn't as "amazing" as Michael Dorn says it was.




Originally Posted by Yora
...even though they tried giving it a new spin with [Voyager] and Enterprise at the start, they very soon fell back into the old TNG pattern, which I believe is why they failed, at least for me.

This is completely true, and the producers of TNG themselves acknowledged that by the show's final season, everyone's creative energy had run dry. DS9 had its moments, but Voyager and Enterprise were embarrassing, formulaic nonsense, with no soul and no clue.


Originally Posted by DigoDragon
It is amusing to me that Worf would be the commanding officer here. It seemed that every time he held the commanding chair in Star Trek, he'd lose the ship to capture or destruction.

Also, in one of the later episodes of DS9, Worf abandons his mission in order to save a wounded Jadzia--after which Sisko tells him that his career will suffer as a result. Sisko told Worf very bluntly not to expect a command-grade promotion, and that's where they left it.

But hey, this is Star Trek. He'll save a planet or something and Bob's his uncle.



Besides, no one's said he'll be a Federation captain.

:smallamused:

[Yora]

I'd been hoping that after the disaster of the last movie, they would let the franchise quietly slip off to bed. It's run its course, and at this point the only thing that would remotely hold my interest is if they advanced the timeline a century or so from the Next Generation/DS9 period.

This is something that also crossed my mind. The jump from Kirk to Picard was quite significant and worked out very well. Would be a gamble, but I think it'd be something that should be considered again. Reshufle the cards and give us a new iteration of the federation.
TNG/DS9 Federation was supposed to be a "United Nations in Space", but in the end it was still "United States of Earth and its Protectorates". Again excluding DS9, Star Trek seems to have become incredibly conservative. As the powers were be gave green light to the two new movies (which admitedly are just action movies that don't deal with such things), maybe it's finally the time to be more progressive.

[Rawhide]

This same news was first published a couple years ago. I'm unsurprised to see it's just as "nebulous" now as it was then.

This is the news that was published a couple of years ago. The article is 2013, the source is 2012.

[Yora]

There's been a couple of rumors last October and November, not sure if there had actually been anything new last year, though.

[Metahuman1]

As long as we don't have to suffer through it being done in timeline/style of the Abrams Movies....

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rawhide
This is the news that was published a couple of years ago. The article is 2013, the source is 2012.

And there doesn't seem to be anything more recent than the end of 2013, and those are just blogs echoing versions of the TrekNews interview (http://www.treknews.net/2012/08/30/exclusive-michael-dorn-talks-tng-at-25-ds9-and-his-pitch-for-a-new-star-trek-series/).

No telling how these projects work when they're in development, but I think they usually have more news about being in development. Look at how they're promoting Star Wars Rebels. You'd expect something similar for a Worf-based show.

Also, his page on IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000373/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1) shows him working on other projects, but nothing Worf-like in the lineup.


Originally Posted by Yora
TNG/DS9 Federation was supposed to be a "United Nations in Space", but in the end it was still "United States of Earth and its Protectorates".

Well, to a degree, although "protectorates" might not be the word they were aiming for.

Also keep in mind these series are told from the perspective of a primarily Earth-crewed set of starships. The storyline for "Andorian Trek" might showcase a very different angle on Federation history and policy.

:smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

Also, in one of the later episodes of DS9, Worf abandons his mission in order to save a wounded Jadzia--after which Sisko tells him that his career will suffer as a result. Sisko told Worf very bluntly not to expect a command-grade promotion, and that's where they left it.

But hey, this is Star Trek. He'll save a planet or something and Bob's his uncle.



Besides, no one's said he'll be a Federation captain.

:smallamused:

Not sure. His soft spot died a few episodes later, and the source of Worf's dereliction of duty is no more.

Plus, let's be real. He's the brother of the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire. He can potentially talk on behalf of both the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Maybe he's named the overseer of the Cardassian Restoration Government :smallwink:


"I am Worf, brother of Martok. I have crowned two Chancellors and one Emperor. I faced down two Borg invasions, the Dominion and the Breen. I defeated twenty Jem'Hadar in successive combat in their prison. The Federation's Flagship Captain kissed my ass after I threatened to kill him. My mentor is a Bajoran Demigod."

Yhea. Worf is badass.

[Palanan]

When you put it like that, he does have quite a resume.

:smalltongue:



However, the blemish on his Starfleet service record would remain, regardless of whether his reasons for abandoning the mission worked out over the long term.

But yes, in more cynical political terms, Worf's high-level position could certainly be translated into a command. And he'd make a far better captain than most political appointees, even Klingon political appointees.

Alas, I think at this point the "new series" is one actor's rather dubious self-promotion. There's no real indication anything's come of that interview in over a year and a half.

[Yora]

Also keep in mind these series are told from the perspective of a primarily Earth-crewed set of starships. The storyline for "Andorian Trek" might showcase a very different angle on Federation history and policy.

My personal pinch is still "Star Trek: Sector Patrol".
A small federation patroll vessel with a crew of 30, that monitors and secures interstelar traffic and responds to pirate attacks and emergencies in a cluster of 6 inhabited star systems close to the Romulan Border. One of the prime adversaries is the right-hand man and military commander of the Romulan prefect next door, who likes himself some gunboat diplomacy.

Or what about a one season, 30 episode mini-series that is all about a Klingon warship. Or maybe make it just 12 episodes.
Deep Space Nine practically had it as a sub-plot in season 6, and it was pretty cool.
Klingons are by far my favorite Star Trek species, but their DS9 incarnation does make for great entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

[Palanan]

When you say "personal pinch," do you mean a pitch, or something else?

But yeah, that's a fun concept. A smaller crew means a far more intimate working environment--I've talked to guys serving on small vessels with a total crew of only ten or eleven people, and that's a world apart from being one guy in several hundred.

And there's something enjoyable about not having the ability to obliterate planets simply because your command is the Federation flagship and therefore boss.

[Cikomyr]

My personal pinch is still "Star Trek: Sector Patrol".
A small federation patroll vessel with a crew of 30, that monitors and secures interstelar traffic and responds to pirate attacks and emergencies in a cluster of 6 inhabited star systems close to the Romulan Border. One of the prime adversaries is the right-hand man and military commander of the Romulan prefect next door, who likes himself some gunboat diplomacy.

Or what about a one season, 30 episode mini-series that is all about a Klingon warship. Or maybe make it just 12 episodes.
Deep Space Nine practically had it as a sub-plot in season 6, and it was pretty cool.
Klingons are by far my favorite Star Trek species, but their DS9 incarnation does make for great entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

I remember talking to my girlfriend when about how much DS9 focused and developped alien species much more than regular Trek. We were midway through Season 2, and I told her:

- Yhea.. They really, really develop the Bajorans, the Cardassians... and the Klingons.
- ... the Klingons?!?! What do they have to do with this show?!?!
- It's... complicated. But they will become very important later on.
- Damnit. I hate the klingons. They are such a caricature


And now, she LOVES the Klingons because of how much depth DS9 gave them. Martok is the single best genuine Klingon character ever (while Worf is more of a human POV's idealized Klingon)

[Yora]

I think Worf might actually have started out as a big conceptual mistake.
The moment when the character was salvaged was when some writer claimed that Worf was having dificulties with his cultural identity and reacted to it by trying to be the Über-Klingon. Trying to live up to some ideal that he never really was thought to fully understand and is more a distorted carricature of what he believes his "native culture" to be. To the point that he even annoys other klingons.
And without making any specific statements here, is actually something that very commonly happens to young adult males who were born to immigrant parent, and a source of many social problems of today.

I don't think this ever gets resolved in TNG (havn't seen it in ages), but his the hook to his character in DS9. He gets together with a woman, who also lives between the two cultures of the Klingons and the Federation, but actually is much more successful at being integrated in both societies, even though her approach is the total opposite of his. And since she understands how klingon and federation values clash, but can also be made interlaced, she is able to reintegrate him back into his native culture.
That's brilliant! This is Star Trek updating it's ideals to more modern values. It's no longer "You can even raise a klingon to be a good Federation citizen". And that's why DS9 is so much better than the others... :smallwink:

[OverdrivePrime]

Capt. Sulu vs. Capt. Worf

The world is not ready.

:smalleek:

http://i.imgur.com/DLlT4.jpg

[Traab]

Worf started off as a snarling half beast creature that wanted to nuke everything from orbit, just to be sure. Im very glad he changed. Seriously, he seemed to spend a lot of early tng snarling at people and recommending combat.

"Sir, I suggest we fire a spread of photon torpedoes filled with space ebola then set the target on fire."

"For gods sake worf, its a freaking girl scout selling cookies! Chill out!"

"Im just saying she could be dangerous, watch." /attacks girl scout, gets his ass handed to him.

"Why is he head of security again?"

[TheThan]

That's the great thing! :smallbiggrin:

Maybe it goes completely against everything Star Trek originally stood for, but he's a guy who takes action first and asks questions later. But the character has developed enough to look at things on a bigger scale and not just shot at anything that looks somewhat suspicious. Picard was someone you'd send to prevent an escalation or help everyone calm down. But Worf would be the perfect guy to send when chaos has already broken out and you need someone to take fast and descisive action. He's a bit rough around the edges, but still very concerned to do the right thing.
But unlike Picard, Janeway, and Archer, he's not sitting on his high horse, looking down on everyone with his moral superiority, trying to get everyone two subscribe to his ideals. Which back in TNG was well meaning, but in Voyager and Enterprise was just lame. While it would be a stretch to say that he treats others as equals, he has developed to a point where he no longer expect others to live up to his own standards. As long as he does what he thinks right, and the people under his command are loyal to him, that's good enough for him.
Which is why I think it's actually a really good idea.

Another thing, is that Worf is not a human, he doesn’t really think like a human, and he has different values from that of most humans. Since star fleet is all about diversity, understanding, compromise and all that softness. It’d be a change of pace to have a captain that takes a hard line against problems. He’s the sort that won’t necessarily start a fight, but he’ll end one. He’s not afraid to fight, hurt feeling and stand on his principles, even when the pressure of negotiations demand that he compromise. This is the sort of person you need around post Dominion and Borg, when everyone is ready willing and able to jump at the federation’s jugular and rip it out.
Besides if they want to unlock the progressive achievement, having a non human could very well be a good way of doing. We’ve had three white male human captains, a black male human captain, and a white female human captain, having a non-human is a good way of adding to the mix.


My personal pinch is still "Star Trek: Sector Patrol".


While that is a good idea (and I would probably enjoy it), I really want something more akin to Firefly. You know, a show about a small tramp freighter that’s just trying to get by and make a buck. They could use a show like this to expand and explore on what life is like outside of Starfleet and the federation (and all the other big powers). I want to see what life is like for the little guy. That’s interesting to me, because it’s a fascinating world we only see glimpses of throughout star trek’s run.

[Kalmageddon]

Oh please, let this be true.
I could really use some true Star Trek to wash away the taste of the new movies...

[Traab]

While that is a good idea (and I would probably enjoy it), I really want something more akin to Firefly. You know, a show about a small tramp freighter that’s just trying to get by and make a buck. They could use a show like this to expand and explore on what life is like outside of Starfleet and the federation (and all the other big powers). I want to see what life is like for the little guy. That’s interesting to me, because it’s a fascinating world we only see glimpses of throughout star trek’s run.

Thats actually a good idea. We see very little outside official starfleet business in the federation. Another possibility is seeing the maqui rebellion from their side of the fence. (Im sure I misspelled that) From what I recall over the course of voyager, they were people who had real reason to fight against starfleet. And by covering a more anti federation group, it would help dispell some of that left over "we are the saintly federation of utopia maximus. All shall obey us for we are perfect" that has carried over from some really preachy series and episodes. A series where they screw up, or flat out do the wrong thing, or otherwise ruin decent peoples lives over politics, that could be a compelling story, even if we more or less know how it ends.

[zimmerwald1915]

Thats actually a good idea. We see very little outside official starfleet business in the federation. Another possibility is seeing the maqui rebellion from their side of the fence. (Im sure I misspelled that) From what I recall over the course of voyager, they were people who had real reason to fight against starfleet. And by covering a more anti federation group, it would help dispell some of that left over "we are the saintly federation of utopia maximus. All shall obey us for we are perfect" that has carried over from some really preachy series and episodes. A series where they screw up, or flat out do the wrong thing, or otherwise ruin decent peoples lives over politics, that could be a compelling story, even if we more or less know how it ends.
The spelling is "Maquis" and they showed a good deal of their side of the fence on DS9. If the point is to avoid retreading old ground, revisiting the Maquis as such is not the way to do it.

Also, I do not trust Trek to handle "tramp freighters," because Fortunate Son and The Outrageous Okona exist.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheThan
...I really want something more akin to Firefly. You know, a show about a small tramp freighter that’s just trying to get by and make a buck. They could use a show like this to expand and explore on what life is like outside of Starfleet and the federation (and all the other big powers). I want to see what life is like for the little guy.

That would indeed be a lot of fun. In almost every way Firefly was the anti-Trek, and there's a definite space for that approach within the Federation itself. (IDIC, yah?)

DS9 flirted with this a little bit, in the last season or so, by bringing in the Orion Syndicate. It was fun, but the Trek writers just couldn't do it justice. (They had this absurd belief that people wanted to sit through endless show tunes from a Vegas holosuite instead.)

And it would be great to get away from the Prime Directive and interstellar politics to kick around an actual frontier--or better yet, to do that while the freighter crew does their best to deal with the fallout from this or that grandiose interstellar paradigm shift that's all Starfleet's fault.

I wonder if you could combine that with Yora's idea for a pocket cruiser with a small sector to patrol. Most shows tend to focus on one particular ship, but having two different small vessels--one Starfleet, one civilian--would be a great way to have multiple perspectives on the same events.

And, of course, the tramp freighter would be able to get away with things the patrol cruiser never could....

[Traab]

The spelling is "Maquis" and they showed a good deal of their side of the fence on DS9. If the point is to avoid retreading old ground, revisiting the Maquis as such is not the way to do it.

Also, I do not trust Trek to handle "tramp freighters," because Fortunate Son and The Outrageous Okona exist.

Ah, didnt know that. I watched voyager, but ds9 was a lot spottier. So all I got from that was some flashbacks and a lot of hate from people like belanna.

[Pex]

Worf can't become a Captain. He abandoned a mission of his command to take care of an injured Jadzia Dax. He allowed personal feelings to get in the way.

[Tiki Snakes]

Worf can't become a Captain. He abandoned a mission of his command to take care of an injured Jadzia Dax. He allowed personal feelings to get in the way.

He can become a Grand Admiral for all I care, I just don't think he could carry a series. I don't think he has what it takes either as a character or as an actor.

[Kitten Champion]

There are always these sort of fledgling spin-off scripts which pop up years after a successful franchise goes off the air. It's far too late, maybe if they got something out after Star Trek: Nemesis they could have made a show of some sort with those characters... but they decided to do Enterprise, which fundamentally killed Trek on television with a rusty spoon.

I honestly don't mourn its loss. I'd like to see another space opera attempted on television, but not Trek.

[zimmerwald1915]

There are always these sort of fledgling spin-off scripts which pop up years after a successful franchise goes off the air. It's far too late, maybe if they got something out after Star Trek: Nemesis they could have made a show of some sort with those characters... but they decided to do Enterprise, which fundamentally killed Trek on television with a rusty spoon.
Are you implying that they made the decision to do Enterprise after they made Nemesis? Because Enterprise's first episode was broadcast before Nemesis debuted, and the filming of Enterprise's first season began before the filming of Nemesis.

[Kitten Champion]

Are you implying that they made the decision to do Enterprise after they made Nemesis? Because Enterprise's first episode was broadcast before Nemesis debuted, and the filming of Enterprise's first season began before the filming of Nemesis.

No, and when they made the decision doesn't matter, that was the key moment for the future of the franchise. The old continuity was effectively dead, and the prequel material poisoned whatever interest remained by having the worst people in Trek write and direct it.

Star Trek: Worf or whatever spin off they could dream up is simply years too late and well after the face of SF in popular culture has irrecoverably changed.

[Palanan]

It's worth noting that not long after DS9 finished its run, some of the actors were lobbying for a DS9 movie to continue the story. By their reasoning, since ST:TNG had transitioned to movies with some success, DS9 should be given that same chance.

And I agree that the timing of Nemesis and Enterprise doesn't really matter here, since the decision to go with Enterprise was what killed the momentum of the series. Apart from the utterly inane and formulaic approach, the decision to do a prequel series robbed the Trek franchise of any sense of mystery, wonder or suspense.

Star Trek is about exploring the unknown--but early Federation history doesn't really qualify, not when set against all the potential of the galaxy. Enterprise was a mental and emotional retreat into a bland, narrow comfort zone--exactly the opposite of what the franchise needed to offer.

I say let it fade away. I still love Wrath of Khan, and I'll still watch Insurrection for the silly fun of it, but let the franchise rest. Firefly and the new Galactica showed what's possible when you react against the Trek mold, almost point by point, and I'd far rather see what can build on that beginning.

[Yora]

Worf can't become a Captain. He abandoned a mission of his command to take care of an injured Jadzia Dax. He allowed personal feelings to get in the way.

http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200307/kirk01/320x240.jpg

So what?

And even New Kirk did somehow become captain, even though he is clearly unfit to be be allowed on spaceships at all.

[Yora]

While that is a good idea (and I would probably enjoy it), I really want something more akin to Firefly.
What I really want is something that isn't Star Trek at all. Star Trek isn't great, but they have the resources and the reputation to actually be able to do a decent space TV show.
If we could get a decent space TV show any other way, I'd be all for that.

[Aotrs Commander]

I would just like to inject here and say that I really liked Enterprise, and that it's third and forth season I rank among the best of Star Trek, period.

(For frag's sake, Enterprise did a whole two-parter set entirely within the mirror universe, complete with altered titles, something no other show did and it was fracking hilarious.)

And also that I preferred Voyager's later season to DS9's later ones. In fact, me and my Mum barely watched DS9's last season, aside from the finale and that remains unique in all Trek. DS9's peak I felt, was Way of the Warrior and after that it sort of tapered off, while Voyager only really hit it's stride in the third season (with the occasional frag-awful misstep (I think you know which episode I mean...), but you get those occasionally in nearly every show.)

Council for the other side and all that.



What I would personally like though, is something with a great deal more starship combat.

I'm re-watching Shadow Raiders at the moment, and the fact that is has some of the best mass-fighter combat scenes of any show - despite being a nominally children's CGI animation show. The fact that it is SIXTEEN years old, and nothing has even tried to top it in that time is frankly a tragedy and something that the entire sci-fi producing community should be DEEPLY ashamed of.

Hell, the lack of significant, well-done starship combat of any stripe in the last ten years is frankly appalling, with really only the Clone Wars CGI cartoon bringing up the rear - since even the SW prequels didn't manage more than a cursory attempt at it.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm sure that the folks who actually worked on Enterprise put a lot of real effort in. I always got the impression they were genuinely trying with that one in ways that Voyager clearly wasn't. But it had real problems right from day one and as much as I enjoy the guy who played Captain Archer, I just couldn't summon enough enthusiasm to actually watch it.

I think its quite right that the franchise gives TV a rest for a while. Keep puttering around with the shiny but inconsequential films for a while maybe, just to keep it alive as a brand.

I think that eventually it will have to try again and there are certain things it has to do in my opinion when it returns. Firstly, I think it needs to be a clean break from the older shows, like Next Generation was with the Original Series. They can't afford to get it bogged down with the quirks and failures of recent series, it needs to be fresh and new and vigorous.

It also absolutely needs to go back to its roots and genuinely push the envelope, it needs to be one of the most progressive shows on TV. This is absolutely vital in my opinion.

It could also do with having some form of proper over-arching plot, planned out in advance. This is a post 24, breaking bad, game of thrones world we live in, the myth that things need to be mostly episodic to work should be quite comfortably dead by now. I understand this was one of the things Enterprise actually did right, or at least tried.

I think some degree of freedom to reimagine would probably help as well. Might be a bit riskier, but there are many changes on setting between original series and next gen, to update it and make it more relevant to the time. I think they need to allow themselves that level of freedom again if they ever get round to this. Whether this means adopting the new film time-line, advancing the setting a generation or three from the main time-line or simply not worrying as much about continuity, i don't know. But i think something like that would be helpful.

[Aotrs Commander]

I understand this was one of the things Enterprise actually did right, or at least tried.

It did, in the third and forth seasons. Season three was one long plot arc, and season four was a series of short arcs (like the aforementioned two-parter mirror universe story.)



Honestly, though...

I don't think the current socital climate is condusive to Star Trek. The new movies I do like... But they are that bit darker.

Star Trek was always supposed to be hopeful, showing a bright and optimisitc future to look forward to. But - a bit like Superman - it seems as though all too many people these days aren't happy with the idea that someone might actually be better than them in some way, and rather than use that is an impetus to become better themselves, they'd rather mire themselves in watching other people being extremely miserable at each other all the time. Because it's more "realistic" or "edgy" or "gritty."

I'd say it degrades my faith in humanity - but I have long-since lost all that, even with the drag factor of things like MLP.

So I will settle for the current crop of movies, as at least, in Kirk's era they can ham it up a bit and it's still entertaining (and hopefully won't get any darker than it is - I really don't want to see Nolan-style Star Trek *shudder*). Still not a patch on, say Star Trek II or VI, though.

[Cikomyr]

It did, in the third and forth seasons. Season three was one long plot arc, and season four was a series of short arcs (like the aforementioned two-parter mirror universe story.)



Honestly, though...

I don't think the current socital climate is condusive to Star Trek. The new movies I do like... But they are that bit darker.

Star Trek was always supposed to be hopeful, showing a bright and optimisitc future to look forward to. But - a bit like Superman - it seems as though all too many people these days aren't happy with the idea that someone might actually be better than them in some way, and rather than use that is an impetus to become better themselves, they'd rather mire themselves in watching other people being extremely miserable at each other all the time. Because it's more "realistic" or "edgy" or "gritty."

I'd say it degrades my faith in humanity - but I have long-since lost all that, even with the drag factor of things like MLP.

So I will settle for the current crop of movies, as at least, in Kirk's era they can ham it up a bit and it's still entertaining (and hopefully won't get any darker than it is - I really don't want to see Nolan-style Star Trek *shudder*). Still not a patch on, say Star Trek II or VI, though.

I could make the argument that the fact that you feel that way is just an ever more pressing argument as to why we need more optimism.

What I personally think DS9 did best regarding Star Trek's optimism is that it did not treat it in a vacuum like Star Trek, TNG or Voyager did, but instead contrasted it with very, very muddy moral issues and challenges. It put on an equal footing Starfleet Paragons like Sisko, Bashir, Dax and Obrian next to a religious terrorist in Kira, a fascist police enforcer like Odo, a greedy scumbag like Quark and... Garak.*

And yet, the show wasn't about preaching to these different people just How Awesome Federation Values Are, but instead to slowly appeal to their better nature by living next to them, sharing their plight and facing challenges together. In a way, DS9 DID dirtied the Pristine Roddenbury Ideals, but in the process, it also showed how you can bring about people to respect parts of these ideals.

Which, in my opinion, is an ever better message than TNG, at its peak, could ever manage. Making the statement that you can make the world a better place by living your ideals but not being constrained by them is a much better message than saying how life would be wonderful if we just all became enlightened.


*I don't need to give adjectives to describe Garak, methink.

[The Glyphstone]

So I will settle for the current crop of movies, as at least, in Kirk's era they can ham it up a bit and it's still entertaining (and hopefully won't get any darker than it is - I really don't want to see Nolan-style Star Trek *shudder*). Still not a patch on, say Star Trek II or VI, though.

Don't worry, Nolan won't be left unimpeded to ruin Star Trek with grittiness.

It'll be a collaboration, he'll have Michael Bay and Frank Millar to keep him in line.

[Yora]

I think some degree of freedom to reimagine would probably help as well. Might be a bit riskier, but there are many changes on setting between original series and next gen, to update it and make it more relevant to the time. I think they need to allow themselves that level of freedom again if they ever get round to this. Whether this means adopting the new film time-line, advancing the setting a generation or three from the main time-line or simply not worrying as much about continuity, i don't know. But i think something like that would be helpful.
I am completely in agreement here, so this is meant as an entirely constructive question: How could Star Trek reinvent itself to be both progressive and feel like a natural evolution of the TNG/DS9/Voyager period?
And, this is the most important, without being preachy.

Once more, less so a problem with DS9 (where the producer and writers so different for that show), but when Picard, Janeway, or Archer had something to say it always felt like "everyone, stop the plot. I want you to sit down quite and listen to me sermon about ethics". DS9 also sometimes felt a bit forced when it came to that, but I think they at least packed it in scenes in which one character was appealing to his opponent in the conflict of the episode. If the captain explains the moral to the story to one of the most loyal officers, it's just preachy.

One proposal I've read somewhere a few days ago, was to progress the timeline to a point where the Federation is no longer what it once was and they have to deal with internal problems as well as external ones for a change.
While I think it certainly helps to remove the Federation from being a perfect Utopia, I think it's important not to take the easy way and simply replace it with a corrupt government that presses down hard on civil liberties. There's no way to do this without being annoyingly preachy.
What I would like to see is more conflicts, both story-arc and single-episodes, in which the conflicting sides are not entirely clear cut. The Maquis was an interesting idea, but their policy to walk on piles of corpses without showing any regret or discomfort never really made it tough descision for the characters to chose sides.
Also: Careful with the first directive! When a ship comes to a new planet and gets tied up in some conflict with local custom, the two outcomes usually are "the captain makes a speech and they stop their evil practice", or "the captain tells the crew that it's terrible, but they can't do anything but walk away and let it continue". We need more than that.

I think in the last decade, fiction has increasingly shifted towards scenarios in which multiple sides have different views that are both partially acceptible and partly intollerable. The conflict and eventual character growth comes from the characters developing their own oppinion and finding a way to "do the right thing". At that's something Star Trek has always been bad it, and the failure to learn is probably one of the main reasons it declined.

What I personally think DS9 did best regarding Star Trek's optimism is that it did not treat it in a vacuum like Star Trek, TNG or Voyager did, but instead contrasted it with very, very muddy moral issues and challenges. It put on an equal footing Starfleet Paragons like Sisko, Bashir, Dax and Obrian next to a religious terrorist in Kira, a fascist police enforcer like Odo, a greedy scumbag like Quark and... Garak.
Garak was awesome. You don't have to like him as a joke character (and I think he was that even more than Quark), but when they developed the character later on, he was always the one guy who said what nobody else dared to think. He was a corrupt character and never apologized about it, so he was able to poke all those holes into the overstretched ideals of the Federation and Kira without appearing as a hypocrite. He does not have to make exceptions when he sees no alternative and he does not have to bend rules when it's convenient, because he never had any pretensions of living up to any standard of moral authority.

[Aotrs Commander]

I could make the argument that the fact that you feel that way is just an ever more pressing argument as to why we need more optimism.

Need it, oh yes. I entirely agree.

Are likely to get it... That's where the problem lies, I fear.

Because that sort of thing (whether actually true or not) is perceived (by Hollywood et al) as immature, and (they appear to think) only people being miserable and each other is going to sell to unwashes masses or something. Or rather, they appear to think that it won't make them big money (because apparently, just making money is no longer sufficient; it has to make ridiculous amounts of money, as anything short of The Next Big Thing is clearly a failure if not consumned by 97% of the entire population.)


*I don't need to give adjectives to describe Garak, methink.

No. No, you do not.

One of DS9's better points, without question.


Don't worry, Nolan won't be left unimpeded to ruin Star Trek with grittiness.

It'll be a collaboration, he'll have Michael Bay and Frank Millar to keep him in line.

Actually... If you could manage to get them all on the same team and keep them there, it'd probably be worth it, just to contain them... In that instance, I think it would be in the spirit of Star Trek for it to take one for the team as if were...!

[Tiki Snakes]

I am completely in agreement here, so this is meant as an entirely constructive question: How could Star Trek reinvent itself to be both progressive and feel like a natural evolution of the TNG/DS9/Voyager period?
And, this is the most important, without being preachy.

Once more, less so a problem with DS9 (where the producer and writers so different for that show), but when Picard, Janeway, or Archer had something to say it always felt like "everyone, stop the plot. I want you to sit down quite and listen to me sermon about ethics". DS9 also sometimes felt a bit forced when it came to that, but I think they at least packed it in scenes in which one character was appealing to his opponent in the conflict of the episode. If the captain explains the moral to the story to one of the most loyal officers, it's just preachy.

One proposal I've read somewhere a few days ago, was to progress the timeline to a point where the Federation is no longer what it once was and they have to deal with internal problems as well as external ones for a change.
While I think it certainly helps to remove the Federation from being a perfect Utopia, I think it's important not to take the easy way and simply replace it with a corrupt government that presses down hard on civil liberties. There's no way to do this without being annoyingly preachy.
What I would like to see is more conflicts, both story-arc and single-episodes, in which the conflicting sides are not entirely clear cut. The Maquis was an interesting idea, but their policy to walk on piles of corpses without showing any regret or discomfort never really made it tough descision for the characters to chose sides.
Also: Careful with the first directive! When a ship comes to a new planet and gets tied up in some conflict with local custom, the two outcomes usually are "the captain makes a speech and they stop their evil practice", or "the captain tells the crew that it's terrible, but they can't do anything but walk away and let it continue". We need more than that.

I think in the last decade, fiction has increasingly shifted towards scenarios in which multiple sides have different views that are both partially acceptible and partly intollerable. The conflict and eventual character growth comes from the characters developing their own oppinion and finding a way to "do the right thing". At that's something Star Trek has always been bad it, and the failure to learn is probably one of the main reasons it declined.

Well, I don't know about grim-darking the Federation up a bit. It could help, or it might just give you what Aotrs is worried about, pointlessly darkening the show for no real gain.

But the progressive thing is non-negotiable. The original series was a real pioneer with that stuff, mostly in terms of race and to a lesser degree perhaps sex. But series that followed often felt less progressive even than the original series. That's terrible. In a modern Star Trek series, you need to be more progressive than a show from the sixties. That means amongst other things that you can't continue to ignore the issue of sexuality, not in this day and age. There are plenty of ways in which the show should be progressive, but given that to my knowledge there still hasn't been an officially, openly non-heterosexual character in any of the shows, let alone a major, main cast character.

That's just not on. If your prospective new Star Trek cast is less diverse than Glee? Scrap the project and start again.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Firstly, I think it needs to be a clean break from the older shows, like Next Generation was with the Original Series. They can't afford to get it bogged down with the quirks and failures of recent series, it needs to be fresh and new and vigorous.

I'd certainly agree with this. A new show would need to make a major break with earlier versions, and forge down a very different conceptual path. And I agree that a major plot arc, together with integrated character arcs, would bring it firmly in line with the other programs you mentioned. I'm with you on those points.

However....


Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
It also absolutely needs to go back to its roots and genuinely push the envelope, it needs to be one of the most progressive shows on TV.

This is tricky, and not only because everyone has a different idea of "progressive" and different reactions in response.

To me, science fiction shouldn't just project a subset of our own values onto a happy future where we were conveniently proven right by the judgment of history. As Yora notes, this approach dates itself rather quickly--and in my view, it's also extremely lazy. Science fiction shouldn't replicate our own values in some comfortable echo of ourselves; it should explore the values, challenges and moral compromises that would confront a future society which, in many ways, can't help but be entirely unlike our own.

This requires both the writers and the audience to think carefully about what exactly it means to be a human society--or human/alien, or transhuman--dealing with the realities of interstellar life and culture. This will be far more challenging, especially on the creative front, than simply putting ourselves, with our own earthbound notions, X-thousand lightyears down the Perseus Arm--but also far more interesting and rewarding.

There are two sets of limits to how far this can be pushed: first, because as long as we're dealing with humans, there will (or should be) some human commonality. Exploring just what that commonality might be, between ourselves and our future descendants, can be very interesting and insightful.

And second, if it's going to be in the television adventure/drama format, then there do need to be some concessions made for the characters to be accessible and engaging to a contemporary audience. The challenge is to work with this second consideration without sacrificing the creative focus on developing a completely different kind of society.

[Pex]

http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200307/kirk01/320x240.jpg

So what?

And even New Kirk did somehow become captain, even though he is clearly unfit to be be allowed on spaceships at all.

Don't take my word for it. That's from Captain Sisko.

New Kirk and new Trek is like New Coke only not as tasteful. I ignore it.

[Tiki Snakes]

This is tricky, and not only because everyone has a different idea of "progressive" and different reactions in response.

It's tricky, sure. But Star Trek more than any other franchise has a duty to try. And lets face it, there are plenty of examples of shows around that are dealing with stuff and often doing a good job, so it's not like it's even that big an ask in todays culture.

That's the kind of thing that makes Star Treks general retreat from dealing with progressive issues all the more unforgivable.

[Cikomyr]

It's tricky, sure. But Star Trek more than any other franchise has a duty to try. And lets face it, there are plenty of examples of shows around that are dealing with stuff and often doing a good job, so it's not like it's even that big an ask in todays culture.

That's the kind of thing that makes Star Treks general retreat from dealing with progressive issues all the more unforgivable.

Star Trek would do well to follow in DS9's footstep, which is about living alongside people who have different values and viewpoints, and strive to find what brings you together instead of focusing on what makes you different.

Because of the form of modern society, I believe that's the sort of moral issue we are struggling with the most. We have becomed intolerant of what's different of what we think. We are becoming polarized as societies, and we'd rather shun those saying what upset us than face them. There's a reason we can't have civilized discussion of politics or ethics in forums, unless you happen to have reached a near-monolithical unanimity of viewpoint.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
But Star Trek more than any other franchise has a duty to try.... That's the kind of thing that makes Star Trek[']s general retreat from dealing with progressive issues all the more unforgivable.

I see what you're saying here, although I'm not convinced that the franchise has a particular obligation to follow the patterns of earlier incarnations. A solid science fiction show shouldn't necessarily feel forced into the role of providing incisive social commentary. The original Star Trek did an extremely good job of that--at the expense of many other features--and to an extent TNG and DS9, and once or twice even Voyager, made an attempt to address today's social issues in a fictional setting.

My question is whether that really needs to be the primary purpose of a new Star Trek show, or a new science fiction program in general. So, let me give one example:



What is the primary purpose of a starship? Not as a plot device, but as a vessel designed and built by a starfaring society. What is its reason for being? Not to showcase the "diversity" of its crew, or some other measure of social progress--and that according to whose set of standards?--but rather to accomplish the mission it's been assigned.

Within the storyline, I see this as an opportunity for a conflict between values and mission--again asking exactly whose values are relevant or have a right to be expressed. Supposing military anthropologists, examining the working culture of their interstellar fleet, determine that a certain mix of species aboard a particular starship provides for optimum crew performance and mission success. From their perspective, that's the "best" crew.

The easy question is whether that approach conflicts with our own notions of representative diversity and the avoidance of exclusion. Should a crewman of a particular species be denied a posting to a particular class of vessel? Should he (or whatever) be stymied in his choice of career path, simply because his species evolved a set of behavioural responses which are perfectly suited to his homeworld, but which fall outside the parameters of optimal crew function as specified by military anthropologists?

The less-easy question, at least from a narrative standpoint, is whether these issues would or should matter at all to the interstellar society in which the scenario takes place. This is tricky to present to a contemporary audience, because we do have our own preconceived opinions on what these issues are--or what we think they are--and the audience will be watching to see if their opinions are validated by the characters they take to be the heroes. Reaching past those assumptions--and getting an audience to think outside of their living room, and consider an interstellar culture from within its own framework--is for me the more challenging approach.

[Karoht]

The Worf of Starfleet
Click to receive awesome (www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_sUtXAl24o)
:smallcool:

EDIT: Here is a College Humor link as a backup.
Still Awesome (www.collegehumor.com/post/6956415/the-worf-of-starfleet)

[Palanan]

Unfortunately, all I get for my click is a 502 server error. :smallfrown:



Fortunately, I did see that a couple of days ago, and it's hilarious beyond words. I'd like to frame that video and put it on my wall.

:smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

Some thoughts I just had on progressive themes in Star Trek.

* The great paragon of progressive character design in Star Trek is of course Uhura. Yes, making the only major female character in the cast a radio opperator may seem a bit weak now. But, she was not Miss Uhura, but Lieutenant Uhura! An officer of considerable rank.
As Nichols tells the story, she mentioned to Martin Luther King, that she wanted to quit the role because she wanted to do something that promotes the struggle of African Americans at that time, and her role is one that any other white woman could play as well. To which King replied that this is exactly the reasons she must not quit. On Star Trek, she is not treated as a black woman, but simply as a woman. The character is normal, not something special. And I feel, that in the current day, this is something that is important to discriminated minorities as well. Society no longer pretends non-straight people and people with impairments do not exist, which is great. But after that, it's just as important to accept them as normal and not the exception. I think that is something that really needs to be kept in mind when thinking about characters and minority issues in future Star Trek shows.
* This is a problem I had with Voyager and Enterprise. While they are multiethnic, the characters are still all culturally american. Look at Voyager: Rural American from Iowa, Native American, Korean American, Hispanic American-Klingon, and did you know that Seven of Nine was really Swedish-American? Tuvok is an Alien, but still the token black. Not cool.
DS9 had a huge number of aliens, but the humans were one Southern American, one Irishman, his actually Japanese wife (minor role, but still), and a... somewhat middle eastern man with very middle eastern or indian parents but an English name. Still counts for something.
TNG had two Americans, a Frenchman, an actual African African, an Irishman, an Ukranian, and an alien adopted by Russians.
Whatever you do with a new Star Trek crew, only two American nationals please. We still never had any South Americans. Or any German! Could we have a German character who is not a tall blond badass? That would be culturally insensitive. A german engineer would be totally cool though. :smallbiggrin: Or a doctor, or a pilot, just nothing that would look in a Leni Riefenstahl film.
* TNG was the last cast that really tried to push things at the social level. Worf was a war orphan, Crusher was a single-mon war widdow, Geordi had a disability that frequently actually impaired him (though also gave him a super-power), and Tasha Yar (the biggest loss in Star Trek history) was a street kid in a civil war who still managed to get a honest career. I don't know the late 80s in the US, but I think these character backgrounds probably were all a little bit on the edge of most peoples comfort zone. But it was never patronizing, which I think is great.
* What I personally think just can't be pushed out any longer is of course somehow adressing people who don't conform to heteronormative standards. It would pain me a bit if it would end up an attractive woman around 30, but even that would at least be a start. Not that there's a problem with that, but I'd feel very weary about the exploitation potential, which I am sure even makes most 30ish female homosexuals unhappy.
While it'd be a bit cheap and cowardly, but we're talking about commercial mainstream entertainment here, how about an alien with a somewhat less than clear gender status? Dax was a careful first step, but in the end she mostly was just a normal woman who had the memories of some men. I think there's room for a lot more. And I don't mean Asari.
* Seeing disability and impairment adressed in some way again would also be nice. If we have a starship crew, that person would of couse still have to be able to function unimpaired most of the time, but I am sure something can be done other than artificial eyesight.

[Palanan]

Well, Yora and I were thinking and typing in parallel. He typed more and faster, but here's my take:



I will say one thing about Trek's retreat from diversity, which has bothered me for many years now.

The original series really was groundbreaking for showing people of different races and nationalities serving under a shared command. We had crew who were from America (San Francisco, Iowa, the South) but also from Russia, Scotland, Africa, Australia, and of course one or two further locations. It was a genuinely international crew.

Sadly, the later installments of the franchise pulled back rather severely, presenting us not with new international characters, but with a much more restricted view of racial diversity from the United States alone. LaForge and Sisko aren't Africans; they're African-American. Harry Kim isn't Korean; he's Korean-American. Chakotay isn't a competent actor much of anything; he's a generic Native American. And so on.

This may hit all the demographic high notes for an American audience, but it leaves the rest of the planet almost completely unrepresented. Where are the Brazilians, the Micronesians, the Vietnamese, the Sikhs, the Finns, the Malagasy, the Navajo, the Armenians, the Masai? Do none of them have any interest in exploring the galaxy?

It's absurd to believe so, but with a handful of exceptions, you'd think that the only people on 24th-Century Earth with any drive or ambition are racially diverse Americans, with a couple Europeans thrown in for a little class and style. This touches on both representing the contemporary viewership as well as the world in which the series is set, from which the starships are sent forth. We have the occasional token female or Asian admiral, but these are one-off guest stars, not regular crew or returning characters.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well said Yora and Palanan. Pretty spot on, there.

I will admit, if the crew includes a bad-ass German lesbian war veteran with a bionic arm, I could totally live with that. :smallwink:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Yora
I don't know the late 80s in the US, but I think these character backgrounds probably were all a little bit on the edge of most peoples comfort zone. But it was never patronizing, which I think is great.

Well, I did know the late 80s in the US, and those character backgrounds were more interesting than edgy. Unfortunately it did come across as a little patronizing sometimes--but simultaneously the show was able to laugh at itself a little, as when Picard caught himself and said, "Excuse me, I seem to be giving a speech." That helped define it in the earlier episodes, when they were otherwise flailing a little.


Originally Posted by Yora
While it'd be a bit cheap and cowardly, but we're talking about commercial mainstream entertainment here, how about an alien with a somewhat less than clear gender status?

You're forgetting the fifth-season episode in which Riker had a tentative relationship with a member of an androgynous species. That was one of my favorite episodes--not so much for the subject matter, but for the fact that it was a rare episode where an entire society's issues weren't happily resolved by the end of the hour.

[The Glyphstone]

Cause there is no way a German doctor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HerrDoktor) could be misconstrued (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadDoctor)as a stereotype... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThoseWackyNazis)

[Cikomyr]

I know that Woopie Goldberg was heavily impacted by Michelle Nicholes. She was astounished to see a Black Woman on TV that wasn't a MAID

Also, Bashir isn't south-american, he's Arab/Indian! I think..

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

If I were going to make a new show in the old world, I would start the ship at DS9, and have them planning on exploring past the dominion zone in delta quadrant.

An Aliiance ship, with Klingons, Romulans, and Federation all abourd, bigger then any ship we have ever seen.

introduce a much larger cast. Do the normal command crew, A Captain, 1st officer, pilot, security/tactical, a Doctor, a communications expert. Then add in a group of specialists under them all as main cast also some % of those people have familys (wait for it, I know it will sound strange) including named away team members...

The excuse for the larger cast is so you can have a full command crew, a full set of away team specialists (although normally lead by a command officer or two).

So now we have say 2 named Doctors, and a named Nurse, 2 or 3 named pilots, a group of security officers ect, ect. Then we spend the first 2 hour premier (later first 2 parter) with them in warp being followed by jem hadar 'escorts' out of there territory.

The concept is that they are a generational ship mapping from Dominion to Fed space excepting a 30+ year trip... of exploration.

[GenericGuy]

I know that Woopie Goldberg was heavily impacted by Michelle Nicholes. She was astounished to see a Black Woman on TV that wasn't a MAID

Also, Bashir isn't south-american, he's Arab/Indian! I think..

Don't want to speak for Yora, but I think he was referring to Sisko as the "Southern American" as in an American from the southern United States, Sisko's family is from Louisiana.

I don't think this Worf project will ever get off the ground, and the Original countniuty will be for all intents and purposes dead as far as TV/movie execs are concerned.

Personally I think I would prefer the Abrams films to run their course, and then have the TNG crew of the rebooted universe become a TV series and see how it goes from there.

[TheThan]

Personally I think smaller is better.
With a smaller crew you get to get into the nitty gritty about each character. The writers get to explore their characters very intimately. With a large crew the writing gets pulled into so many directions that characters become nothing more than a list of character traits.

For my Star trek: Tramp Freighter, idea, I’d like four.

That feels like a good number of crew for a small ship, I’d go with a Captain (pilot), Executive officer (operations officer), Loading officer(muscle) and Engineer. Since this show is about surviving in a dangerous galaxy it’d be a little too convenient to have everything you need on your ship.

[GenericGuy]

Personally I think smaller is better.
With a smaller crew you get to get into the nitty gritty about each character. The writers get to explore their characters very intimately. With a large crew the writing gets pulled into so many directions that characters become nothing more than a list of character traits.

For my Star trek: Tramp Freighter, idea, I’d like four.

That feels like a good number of crew for a small ship, I’d go with a Captain (pilot), Executive officer (operations officer), Loading officer(muscle) and Engineer. Since this show is about surviving in a dangerous galaxy it’d be a little too convenient to have everything you need on your ship.

To be honest, I'm starting to get sick of the "small" Sci-Fi dealing with the more down to earth peoples. Most Sci-Fi on TV post-Trek have been doing this, mostly because of budgetary reasons, and I'm ready for another Sci-Fi show that feels larger than life. With characters who aren't spectators of the world, but the real movers and shakers of Galactic politics, basically Game of Thrones innnnnn SSPPPPPAAAAAACCCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

[BeerMug Paladin]

No, and when they made the decision doesn't matter, that was the key moment for the future of the franchise. The old continuity was effectively dead, and the prequel material poisoned whatever interest remained by having the worst people in Trek write and direct it.

Star Trek: Worf or whatever spin off they could dream up is simply years too late and well after the face of SF in popular culture has irrecoverably changed.
This is pretty much my view of new Trek. I lost interest in the franchise after seeing Nemesis and less than a season of Enterprise. I was exposed to the first new movie and didn't see anything of value in it. I will not go out of my way to see more (I might see it for the same reason I might see a LOTR or Star Wars movie, nerdy friends showing it to me because they think it's worth seeing).

Although for me it's not because the continuity was killed, it's because the people writing Trek now don't seem to understand what makes the setting interesting to me. And I don't think that's going to change because that hasn't been the point of the franchise for a while now. (As a guess, I would say the point of the franchise started to change around when First Contact was made.)

It's fine if other people like the new take on the franchise, I can just tell by the inertia that any new movie is not going to be made for me. But then, I'm generally not much of a fan of franchises in general, so it was probably inevitable that I would eventually become disinterested in one I actually did follow.

[Cikomyr]

To be honest, I'm starting to get sick of the "small" Sci-Fi dealing with the more down to earth peoples. Most Sci-Fi on TV post-Trek have been doing this, mostly because of budgetary reasons, and I'm ready for another Sci-Fi show that feels larger than life. With characters who aren't spectators of the world, but the real movers and shakers of Galactic politics, basically Game of Thrones innnnnn SSPPPPPAAAAAACCCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

Hmm..

"Star Trek : Starfleet Corps of Diplomats, under the command of Ambassador Worf"

:smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

I wasn't attached enough to Star Trek to really care when Abrams made it into Star Wars-like series. Frankly I thought the TNG movies were terrible, they kept putting aged theatrical actors into the role of action heroes, with scripts that would have been shrug-worthy or infuriating had they been television episodes, and hoping for the best. Abrams just removed the chaff (the actors, continuity, previous Trek writers, etc.) and made what Paramount had been trying to do for decades and what audiences wanted from a summer blockbuster... and I was cool with that.

The second movie was what annoyed me. Despite removing 95% of the old Trek hangups, they yet again decided to mirror Wrath of Khan in such a lame and lazy way. It was like Marvel's Ultimate universe at its weakest, where they use some of the iconic imagery and stories in a way they seem to think is dark and clever but just cuts the heart out of what made their source material interesting in the first place while damaging the characters involved and overall brand. However, unlike Marvel's Ultimate universe they didn't even have the courage to live with their decisions, making it absolutely pointless.

They could have literally taken the universe anywhere they wanted, and hopefully they will, but if you can't be bold what's the point of any of this?

[GenericGuy]

Hmm..

"Star Trek : Starfleet Corps of Diplomats, under the command of Ambassador Worf"

:smallbiggrin:

Worf with a desk-job does sound an awful lot like Robert Baratheon stuck with the Iron Throne.

[Cikomyr]

Worf with a desk-job does sound an awful lot like Robert Baratheon stuck with the Iron Throne.

Somehow, I suspect Ambassador Worf wouldn't be content to just sit on his ass at the Embassy.

He'd kick ass with the best of them.

[Fjolnir]

The Weird thing is that DS9 ended with the knife edge turned onto the flat of the blade, the galaxy got a little more cohesive as the Romulans and Klingons pretty decided to play nice with the Federation and the Cardassians going from a semi major power in their neck of the woods to post ww1 germany. Honestly I would love to see a crew that is made up of a veteran starfleet officer with elite cadets along with a small smattering of non-federation crew, this allows you to have a group like Worf, Nog, A cardassian officer of some kind, a Romulan bridge crew member(possibly a science officer, kind of an anti-spock) and task them with something like the circumnavigation of the quadrant, similar to red squadron's 5 year mission to circumnavigate Federation space. Basically we get a good look at how the other groups in the quadrant live, revisit some characters we will never see again such as Grand Nagus Rom, and get most of the exploratory, problem of the week things we see in the first two Trek Series.

Utilizing something like this you could have things like various spy intrigue (the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar might be diminished by their actions in the dominion war but that doesn't mean they were all destroyed, not to mention Section 31...) which also helps to create an underlying plot of sorts as these forces try to use the ship to push their agendas which might slide the entire quadrant back into war...

[Rawhide]

As a huge Star Trek fan, I say we need a proper Babylon 5 spinoff.

[Aotrs Commander]

As a huge Star Trek fan, I say we need a proper Babylon 5 spinoff.

Sadly - while I completely agree1 - MJS has pretty much said there's now no chance of that. Basically, because he was so sick of being yanked around budget-wise by the networks (which is why there was only the one volume of Tales) after B5 itself, and the debarcles with Crusade and Legend of the Rangers, last I heard he'd said the only way he would be prepared to revisit it was if they let him do a big-bugdet movie series.

Otherwise, he said he'd rather let it stand as it does, rather than make another attempt that ends up not being what he feels is up to standard.

Needless to say, if I ever find out which individuals are responsible for cancelling Crusade before it got off the ground, they get to go straight to the top of my "set their soul's intestines on fire" list.



1For a while, Stargate SG-1 had topped my favourite sci-fi show list, despite it being... Less starship-y. (I think some of that was the fact that we watched Trek to death - especially all the "funny" episodes which my sister watched past the point they were funny anymore.) Then a year or two back, I finally got all of Babylon 5 on DVD and me and my Mum started watching through everything in chronological order. (We still have a couple of episodes of Crusade, Tales and the season five finale to go, since we got out of the habit.) It was the first time in a good decade and a half I'd watched anything of it, and I'd never watched the whole series through (since thanks to Channel 4's bungling schedule, I missed a chunk of season five). And I was struck how much better it was, now that I was old enough to get the subtext. And, frankly, the starship battles are some of the most intense I've ever seen - Severed Dreams was I think, one of the star moment and had us both on the edge of our seat. It probably warrents being one of the best starship battles onscreen for that reason. (And of course "...be somewhere else!") So I granted it it's rightful place at the top - narrowly, because SG-1 is fracking awesome, but nevertheless there.

Also, That Moment with Vir (you know which one) is probably the single greatest moment of cinema in the entire history of the world.

[Yora]

Well, he has three great moments. One silly slapstick, two poetic, in true B5-fashion.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GenericGuy
Most Sci-Fi on TV post-Trek have been doing this, mostly because of budgetary reasons, and I'm ready for another Sci-Fi show that feels larger than life. With characters who aren't spectators of the world, but the real movers and shakers of Galactic politics....

Did you miss the new Battlestar Galactica?

A good deal of the show deals with the politics of the remnants of the human race. Many of the main characters are "movers and shakers" in their society.


Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Frankly I thought the TNG movies were terrible, they kept putting aged theatrical actors into the role of action heroes, with scripts that would have been shrug-worthy or infuriating had they been television episodes, and hoping for the best.

For the most part the TNG movies were television episodes, slightly expanded to big-screen format but never coming close to full cinematic potential. How could they? They were written, directed and produced by people who had spent close to ten years working on an increasingly claustrophobic television franchise. They didn't really understand just how far their horizons could have expanded; they were too wrapped up in presenting their cramped perspective on a slightly wider screen.

And the fact is, Jonathan Frakes is no Sidney Lumet. Narrow perspectives aside, there's a profound difference in quality as well. On that score Abrams is no better.


Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
They could have literally taken the universe anywhere they wanted, and hopefully they will, but if you can't be bold what's the point of any of this?

Amen to that. Pretty much how I feel about Voyager and Enterprise as well.




Originally Posted by TheThan
For my Star trek: Tramp Freighter, idea, I’d like four.

That feels like a good number of crew for a small ship, I’d go with a Captain (pilot), Executive officer (operations officer), Loading officer(muscle) and Engineer.

You'd need a medic of some sort--not necessarily to provide the narrative role of "doctor," but in practical terms your crew will be at the corner of No and Where (to borrow a phrase) and they need a certain degree of self-sufficiency.

Also, a junior crewmember of some sort--not because he's essential in any particular role, but because an extra pair of eyes and hands can always be useful somewhere, whether helping with loading or keeping an eye on sensors during a tricky maneuver.

Plus, if the tramp freighter is part of any organized merchant marine, there's always the nagging worry that the next generation (so to speak) won't turn out in numbers enough to keep the tradition going--and thus support the commercial backbone of interstellar trade--so even though the kid is next to useless, the crew is willing to put up with him in the hopes that one day, against all odds, he might develop into a serviceable crewman, which the MM community will desperately need.

[Cikomyr]

The Weird thing is that DS9 ended with the knife edge turned onto the flat of the blade, the galaxy got a little more cohesive as the Romulans and Klingons pretty decided to play nice with the Federation and the Cardassians going from a semi major power in their neck of the woods to post ww1 germany. Honestly I would love to see a crew that is made up of a veteran starfleet officer with elite cadets along with a small smattering of non-federation crew, this allows you to have a group like Worf, Nog, A cardassian officer of some kind, a Romulan bridge crew member(possibly a science officer, kind of an anti-spock) and task them with something like the circumnavigation of the quadrant, similar to red squadron's 5 year mission to circumnavigate Federation space. Basically we get a good look at how the other groups in the quadrant live, revisit some characters we will never see again such as Grand Nagus Rom, and get most of the exploratory, problem of the week things we see in the first two Trek Series.

Utilizing something like this you could have things like various spy intrigue (the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar might be diminished by their actions in the dominion war but that doesn't mean they were all destroyed, not to mention Section 31...) which also helps to create an underlying plot of sorts as these forces try to use the ship to push their agendas which might slide the entire quadrant back into war...

I always believed DS9 really missed the boat in not keeping the Romulan officer from The Search (Part I and II). She would have been quite an interesting contrast, and would have allowed to get a better insight into Romulan society, culture and intrigue.

Plus, considering that she basically declared the Cloaking Device Room to be her private Domain, on pain of shooting, and that Worf later shotgunned the entire Defiant as his private quarters, it would have been quite the power struggle of Worf vs. RomulanGirl.

Come on, you KNOW you wanted to see this: roommate antics between Worf and a romulan.

[Kitten Champion]

Is there any functional difference between Romulans and Cardassians? Outside of one having a sense of humour.

[Cikomyr]

Is there any functional difference between Romulans and Cardassians? Outside of one having a sense of humour.

Military tactics and different sense of honor. That's about it, I think. Although I think the Romulan Empire is actually more of a democracy (or a plutocracy). They do have a Senate and Senators, and they have Praetor/Consuls, which reflects a form of election. Or they could be like the latter stage of the Roman Empire. Who knows?

But otherwise, you are right. As far as we've seen, both are somewhat Big Brother governments with very effective intelligence agencies.

The first romulan episode emphasised that the Romulans were honorable and had a very dedicated sense of duty, but that had somewhat been lost in future instances.

Plus, Romulans have very bad tailors.

[Traab]

Arent the romulans a genetic offshoot of the vulcans or something?

[hamishspence]

Arent the romulans a genetic offshoot of the vulcans or something?

They are. In fact, in the trek EU (and possibly movie tie in material?) the Remans are an offshoot of the Romulans.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Traab
Arent the romulans a genetic offshoot of the vulcans or something?

This was strongly hinted at in their very first appearance in TOS--in fact, it was a dramatic surprise for the crew of the original Enterprise, since no one had actually seen a Romulan before. (There was some racial animosity directed at Spock as a result.)

The idea was developed a little later in TOS, and Diane Duane wrote a novel in the early 80s, The Romulan Way, which developed an entire history, culture and society for the Romulans, based on their being the descendants of a great diaspora which had left Vulcan thousands of years before, owing to what we might call "irreconcilable philosophical differences" with the developing Vulcan culture of dispassionate logic.

Much of that backstory, alas, wasn't followed up on when TNG was set in motion, although the fifth-season two-parter "Unification" worked on the basic premise that Romulans had been an offshoot of the Vulcans. They never really followed up on this, and in general the Romulans have been sort of a forgotten stepchild in the various series. TNG focused on the Klingons, DS9 developed the Cardassians and Bajorans (and, unfortunately, the Ferengi), and the Romulans were just brought in for occasional doses of mysterious villainy.

It's unfortunate, because the Romulans have tremendous potential, and there were hints in the last season or two of TNG that a lot more was in the wings.



In fact, one character I'd really like to see is a half-Vulcan/half-Romulan hybrid. I don't think we've seen a character like this before, and apart from the surface potential of an individual caught in a struggle between passion and rationality, there's also the opportunity to work with fundamental notions of racial identity. Does identifying as a specific race have any biological meaning? Are divisions in culture enough to support a species-level distinction? Beneath all the idealism about evolved societies, how do people in an interstellar civilization really view racial distinctions?

To a degree, the character of Worf developed around the idea of bringing hereditary enemies into the heart of your community--which had particular relevance in the late 80s and especially the early 90s. A character dealing with issues of racial identity, in a society ostensibly beyond such things, would have just as much relevance to audiences of today.

.

[Yora]

I think the Romulans are totally the best candidates to be the main rival power (though not neccessarily villains) in a new Star Trek show.
We got Klingons in TNG, Cardassians and Dominion, and klingons again, in DS9, and Borgs in Voyager. Even Enterprise did something with the Andorians, which I think was a really cool idea.
While I wouldn't say I am a Cardassian fan, anytime DS9 tried to do something with others than warship commanders it got really quite good.

With Romulans, we really only have warship commanders, Tal Shiar (who admitedly are cool), and the somewhat too obviously Roman senate. Still really just a superfacial snapshot, there should be a lot more to explore.

Is there any functional difference between Romulans and Cardassians? Outside of one having a sense of humour.
With the heavy focus on the Obsidian Order in DS9, not really. But since the Romulans are still rather underdeveloped, I see that as a good motivation to do something creative with them instead of staying in the old TNG line.

[hamishspence]

In fact, one character I'd really like to see is a half-Vulcan/half-Romulan hybrid. I don't think we've seen a character like this before, and apart from the surface potential of an individual caught in a struggle between passion and rationality, there's also the opportunity to work with fundamental notions of racial identity.

In the novelizations of Star Trek II and Star Trek III, this is exactly what Saavik is.

[TheThan]

Never said someone couldn’t also be a medic, I just don’t really want a purpose made doctor.

As far as a junior officer, I can see that IF they’re part of some sort of merchant marine fleet. If they’re completely independent then, well I don’t think that character is necessary. Being short on resources and personnel is part of the struggle after all.

There’s plenty of conflict for the tramp freighter to deal with. The Romulans will suspect them of spying, the Casrdassian will make scapegoats out of them, the Klingons will kill them, the Ferengi will cheat them, and the federation will bog them down in red tape.

[Karoht]

It would be interesting to see how basic Starfleet medical training has prepared them. Think less doctor and more first responder/paramedic.

[Yora]

In the novelizations of Star Trek II and Star Trek III, this is exactly what Saavik is.

Hard to portray an inner struggle in a culture that does not whine, in any other medium.

[TheThan]

It would be interesting to see how basic Starfleet medical training has prepared them. Think less doctor and more first responder/paramedic.

yeah, that's the direction I would want to go. this character's medical knowledge is limited to emergency medical skills, stapling people up, repairing phase/disruptor wounds etc.

[Karoht]

yeah, that's the direction I would want to go. this character's medical knowledge is limited to emergency medical skills, stapling people up, repairing phase/disruptor wounds etc.Healing happens off-screen, deaths happen on screen. Responder would merely stablilize for transport, and then ensure they are removed from the battlefield, camera gets back to the action. If they live, we see them again in sick-bay magically/science-lly healed up. If they die, they usually die without leaving the planet, unless they die after the conflict in sick-bay.

[The Glyphstone]

Do phasers even have a 'wound' setting? They either stun people, or disintegrate them.

[Traab]

Do phasers even have a 'wound' setting? They either stun people, or disintegrate them.

I bet they do. I mean, from time to time we have people treating their wounds in fights with various phaserish weapons, and it really doesnt make sense that they would have stun or obliterate as the only settings. Especially since im fairly sure I recall them talking about multiple settings, including ones meant to take down entire rooms with a single blast and other odd things.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by hamishspence
In the novelizations of Star Trek II and Star Trek III, this is exactly what Saavik is.

Okay, thanks. I read those when I was a kid, so I must have known that at one point. :smallfrown:

Now that you mention it, I do recall some faint, faint memories along those lines. Also how Saavik can remember the moment of her birth, which surprised David. I think this was in the first couple chapters of the Star Trek III paperback.


Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
Do phasers even have a 'wound' setting? They either stun people, or disintegrate them.

Phasers have three settings: Stun, Vaporize, and Plot Moment. :smallamused:

Really, it seems pretty random whether a high-powered phaser will drop someone with a scorch mark--allowing for a couple last words and/or a brief scene of grieving over a body--or if they just disintegrate someone outright. Cardassian phasers seem to work on the former principle, Romulans on the latter, and Federation gear is all over the place.

[TheThan]

My opinion on phasers is that they are directly proportional to how badly Worf got his ass handed to him.

If the alien of the week can throw Worf across the bridge of the enterprise with his pinky, then phasers won’t hurt it that much, if at all. On the other hand, if Worf can beat it up, then the phasers can probably take it down (stun or kill, take your pick).

[Legato Endless]

Okay, thanks. I read those when I was a kid, so I must have known that at one point. :smallfrown:

Now that you mention it, I do recall some faint, faint memories along those lines. Also how Saavik can remember the moment of her birth, which surprised David. I think this was in the first couple chapters of the Star Trek III paperback.



Phasers have three settings: Stun, Vaporize, and Plot Moment. :smallamused:

Really, it seems pretty random whether a high-powered phaser will drop someone with a scorch mark--allowing for a couple last words and/or a brief scene of grieving over a body--or if they just disintegrate someone outright. Cardassian phasers seem to work on the former principle, Romulans on the latter, and Federation gear is all over the place.

The other complication is the hand phaser was majorly nerfed at some point in the series. Phaser intensity was modular in early TNG. A hand phaser could blow up a building. Data uses one to destroy a dam in an episode. We see Riker at one point click a button on the device repeatedly to disintegrate someone when his first few stun attempts failed. Later, we see phaser rifles that operate like modern guns except slower. And then in Insurrection Word has some kind of bazooka that fires blasts equal to a hand grenade.

[hamishspence]

The other complication is the hand phaser was majorly nerfed at some point in the series. Phaser intensity was modular in early TNG. A hand phaser could blow up a building. Data uses one to destroy a dam in an episode. We see Riker at one point click a button on the device repeatedly to disintegrate someone when his first few stun attempts failed. Later, we see phaser rifles that operate like modern guns except slower. And then in Insurrection Word has some kind of bazooka that fires blasts equal to a hand grenade.

Memory Alpha goes into more detail on the subject:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser

[Jimorian]

To be fair, shows and movies with regular guns have that exact same kind of plot function. Usually the bad guy's mooks all drop dead immediately after being shot with nary a peep, while the hero gets a wound they can still function with, and the main villain gets to linger long enough for a nice soliloquy. Having an entire secret base filled with gut-wounded henchmen screaming for their mommies as they bleed out might just interfere with the dramatic tension. :smalltongue:

[Kitten Champion]

I don't mind the plot-convenient phasers, anymore than I mind the plot-convenient science in general. I do mind when they out and out forget that they have a goddamned stun setting and act like they're wielding a revolver or something so they hold back firing until inevitably their phaser gets knocked away and there's a fist fight.

It would be one thing if the Trek hand-to-hand were at all interesting, but as it stands it's some of the most dull stuff in the history of fight choreography.

[Cikomyr]

You could make the argument that the super-powered Phaser moment we've seen actually drain the power out of the phaser, while the most regular blasts we see are in a war or a big combat situation where multiple phaser blasts are required.

[Traab]

You could make the argument that the super-powered Phaser moment we've seen actually drain the power out of the phaser, while the most regular blasts we see are in a war or a big combat situation where multiple phaser blasts are required.

We have those too, and they are done specifically that way. Its usually something like, they tap away at a phaser or phaser rifle for awhile, say its set to overload, then use it like its dynamite. Or they burn them out by setting them to a wide spread so you get a flattened cone shape blast that hits everything in the way at once.

[Cikomyr]

We have those too, and they are done specifically that way. Its usually something like, they tap away at a phaser or phaser rifle for awhile, say its set to overload, then use it like its dynamite. Or they burn them out by setting them to a wide spread so you get a flattened cone shape blast that hits everything in the way at once.

I really with they had came up with the Gatling Phaser.

Kind of a minigun that shoots the Defiant's phaser pulse...

[Traab]

I really with they had came up with the Gatling Phaser.

Kind of a minigun that shoots the Defiant's phaser pulse...

Oh dear god, I just had this mental image of worf standing behind one of those old time hand crank gatling guns with 6 phasers attached to them, just spinning it around shooting everything. It was GLORIOUS!

[Palanan]

There's a two-handed Gatling blaster cannon that the Republic commandos use in KotOR, and another version of that has been used by the Clone soldiers in the recently-cancelled Clone Wars series.

Worf would just rock out with one of those.

:smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

Oh dear god, I just had this mental image of worf standing behind one of those old time hand crank gatling guns with 6 phasers attached to them, just spinning it around shooting everything. It was GLORIOUS!

Worf in a Rambo outfit, leading a charge of Klingons and Starfleet Officers against rampaging Borg Jem'Hadar..

*drool*

[Rawhide]

As fun as this discussion is, if you'd like to continue it you should make a new thread (or the original poster can rename this one if he's happy for a topic drift).

[Cikomyr]

As fun as this discussion is, if you'd like to continue it you should make a new thread (or the original poster can rename this one if he's happy for a topic drift).

You are right!

*ahem*

So, Captain Worf series. Thing is, I am not sure how Paramount would ever greenlight such project. They have already turned down Whedon's project of a NewTrek series. Do they fear that the franchise's brand is not strong enough?

[Traab]

Worf in a Rambo outfit, leading a charge of Klingons and Starfleet Officers against rampaging Borg Jem'Hadar..

*drool*

If he says the words, "I aint got TIME tah bleed!" I shall be forced to swoon. :smallbiggrin: But back on topic, there are so many ways it COULD be done, I think we could probably each list three setting ideas and not repeat them.

[TheThan]

I see three situations:
1: they’re banking on the new film franchise. which leads to the potential of paramount producing a new show based in that universe.

2: they don’t think a new show is going to be strong enough after the failure of enterprise

3: they don’t think it’s the right time to make a new star trek tv series, so they're holding off until its time to make a new one.

[Yora]

Though I don't see how waiting even more would improve the chances for success. Even if they start preparing now, it will be more than 10 years since there had been any Star Trek on TV.

The only way times could get better, would be if we get two or three hugely successful space shows, that make the genre look like a goldmine.
But it's unlikely to happen until someone starts making a space show again.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheThan
2: they don’t think a new show is going to be strong enough after the failure of enterprise

3: they don’t think it’s the right time to make a new star trek tv series, so they're holding off until its time to make a new one.

I'd say it's some combination of these two. I think the attempt to "reboot" the film franchise is pretty much dead (although that may just be wishful thinking) and the actors seem to have gone off to other projects. We all know where the director is headed...and I know where I wish he'd go.

And I think Yora's right--there just isn't much in the way of space-adventure out there these days, at least not that I'm seeing. Defiance is sort of the craven inverse of that (in Soviet Defiance, galaxy explores you!!) and it's been several years since the new Galactica jumped her last.

I really wonder how much of this is owing to franchise options and marketing decisions, and how much is due to our society's inward turn. The original Star Trek took off at a time when space exploration was in the news almost constantly--and the Apollo landings happened after the show was off the air, which must have given everyone the sense that the future really was happening, that space travel really would happen one day. I grew up in the afterglow of that feeling, and it was heady enough in the first days of the shuttle program.

No one really thinks about that anymore, apart from the occasional isolated news item about this or that asteroid mission. The idea of human spaceflight becoming a major part of our future civilization just isn't a part of our culture anymore, and I wonder if that's reflected in the lack of appetite for boldly-going-style SF series.

I get very depressed whenever I think about all this. I still have my copy of The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual packed away somewhere.

[Cikomyr]

I'd say it's some combination of these two. I think the attempt to "reboot" the film franchise is pretty much dead (although that may just be wishful thinking) and the actors seem to have gone off to other projects. We all know where the director is headed...and I know where I wish he'd go.

And I think Yora's right--there just isn't much in the way of space-adventure out there these days, at least not that I'm seeing. Defiance is sort of the craven inverse of that (in Soviet Defiance, galaxy explores you!!) and it's been several years since the new Galactica jumped her last.

I really wonder how much of this is owing to franchise options and marketing decisions, and how much is due to our society's inward turn. The original Star Trek took off at a time when space exploration was in the news almost constantly--and the Apollo landings happened after the show was off the air, which must have given everyone the sense that the future really was happening, that space travel really would happen one day. I grew up in the afterglow of that feeling, and it was heady enough in the first days of the shuttle program.

No one really thinks about that anymore, apart from the occasional isolated news item about this or that asteroid mission. The idea of human spaceflight becoming a major part of our future civilization just isn't a part of our culture anymore, and I wonder if that's reflected in the lack of appetite for boldly-going-style SF series.

I get very depressed whenever I think about all this. I still have my copy of The Space Shuttle Operator's Manual packed away somewhere.

Why?!?!

The new trek Movies, while not being state of the art, are certainly much more.. safe. Just consider a moment the history of trek movies, and I can easily point out to the movies being easily worse than Star Trek, and Into Darkness:

- The Motion Picture --> Pointless Snorefest
- The Final Frontier --> Character derailment, stupid plot, stupid jokes
- Generation --> Silly story, overreliance on mindless technobabble, and meaningless killing of the franchise' icon
- Insurrection --> Holier-than-thou society, stupid narrow morality plot, silly and unconvincing action scenes
- Nemesis --> Oh god

The new movies would be about on par with Star Trek 3, which had his problems, but also had their moments. The problem, in my opinion, is that the film creators don't take enough chances with the story and character, and refusal to acknowledge that their own plot centers on Spock, not Kirk.

[The Glyphstone]

Why?!?!

The new trek Movies, while not being state of the art, are certainly much more.. safe. Just consider a moment the history of trek movies, and I can easily point out to the movies being easily worse than Star Trek, and Into Darkness:

- The Motion Picture --> Pointless Snorefest
- The Final Frontier --> Character derailment, stupid plot, stupid jokes
- Generation --> Silly story, overreliance on mindless technobabble, and meaningless killing of the franchise' icon
- Insurrection --> Holier-than-thou society, stupid narrow morality plot, silly and unconvincing action scenes
- Nemesis --> Oh god

The new movies would be about on par with Star Trek 3, which had his problems, but also had their moments. The problem, in my opinion, is that the film creators don't take enough chances with the story and character, and refusal to acknowledge that their own plot centers on Spock, not Kirk.

You cited Movies 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 1011 as examples of bad Star Trek Movies. This is so well known it's already a trope. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarTrekMovieCurse)

[Cikomyr]

You cited Movies 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 1011 as examples of bad Star Trek Movies. This is so well known it's already a trope. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarTrekMovieCurse)

My point being, the new movies have been better than the so-called "bad Trek Movies". Henceforth, their presence makes the entire franchise more worthwhile by their presence, not undesirable.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
My point being, the new movies have been better than the so-called "bad Trek Movies". Henceforth, their presence makes the entire franchise more worthwhile by their presence, not undesirable.

There isn't an emoticon capable of expressing my sentiments on this. And it shouldn't exist. It would melt your corneas.

I will say only that we disagree on this point. Futher discussion would be...illogical.



Relevant to this thread, and to my earlier point, I think it's safe to say that absent any evidence of a third movie in development, we can assume the film franchise is kaput. Chris Pine is booked through 2015, Karl Urban has Almost Human, Zoe Saldana is committed on Avatar sequels through 2018, so it doesn't look like the gang will be getting back together anytime soon.

So, that leaves us with the television environment, which as Yora noted above isn't great.

And it's not for want of diehard fan effort. Somewhere out there, some years ago, a group of fans tried to bang out a sequel series to DS9, picking up with the rebuilding of Cardassia as a Federation protectorate, or something like that. (One of their gimmicks was to include the first Gorn in Starfleet as part of the crew.) It wasn't great--posting mediocre scripts does not a studio impress--but loyal Trek fans certainly want more. Clearly that's not enough.

Really, I'd love to know if there's some new interstellar series picking up somewhere. Blood & Chrome has been all over the place, but the YouTube miniseries approach didn't really spark anything, so that seems defunct.

Not sure what else is out there, but there's certainly a Trek-shaped void in the great wasteland of television SF. Whether or not a new Trek series could or should fill that void is another question.

[The Glyphstone]

My point being, the new movies have been better than the so-called "bad Trek Movies". Henceforth, their presence makes the entire franchise more worthwhile by their presence, not undesirable.

Being better than Nemesis or TFF is not exactly a high bar to set.:smallconfused: They can bring up the 'total average' of the movie line and still be bad movies that the franchise would be better off without.

[Cikomyr]

There isn't an emoticon capable of expressing my sentiments on this. And it shouldn't exist. It would melt your corneas.

I will say only that we disagree on this point. Futher discussion would be...illogical.


Look. I understand that you may find them putrid/bad, etc.. But there's no reason to be offended at the idea that someone thinks differently than you. Isn't Star Trek supposed to be about tolerating other peoples point of view?*


*and I realize it's ironic considering Gene Roddenbury's insistence that there is never any disagreement in the shiny future of the Federation, and everybody always adhere to his strict dogma.

[Cikomyr]

Being better than Nemesis or TFF is not exactly a high bar to set.:smallconfused: They can bring up the 'total average' of the movie line and still be bad movies that the franchise would be better off without.

And Insurrection. And TMP. And Generation. You missed those?

[The Glyphstone]

And Insurrection. And TMP. And Generation. You missed those?

Those are also low-hanging fruit, I just singled out the worst of the worst. And the point I made stands.

[Cikomyr]

Those are also low-hanging fruit, I just singled out the worst of the worst. And the point I made stands.

Actually, no. The point doesn't stand because you said "being better than the worst". The "bad" Star Trek movie, barring the most putrid ones, all have their measure of quality (even if they are overall bad).

Overall, the new Star Trek movies stand at the middle of the road compared to the overall movie franchise, and the mistakes made seems to be due to lack of self-awareness rather than creative failure. They are still nice cohesive stories.

And that is if you compare them to the rest of the Star Trek movie franchises. In modern entertainment industry, they aren't exactly critical or box office failure either, as far as I know. They managed to re-introduce Star Trek into the mind of the general public, and it might eventually prove the viability of a new Series, just like STIV managed to get TNG going.

[The Glyphstone]

We can only hope, since as mentioned above, it seems pretty clear that the film franchise is once again dead in the water.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Actually, no. The point doesn't stand because you said "being better than the worst". The "bad" Star Trek movie, barring the most putrid ones, all have their measure of quality (even if they are overall bad).

Overall, the new Star Trek movies stand at the middle of the road compared to the overall movie franchise, and the mistakes made seems to be due to lack of self-awareness rather than creative failure. They are still nice cohesive stories.

And that is if you compare them to the rest of the Star Trek movie franchises. In modern entertainment industry, they aren't exactly critical or box office failure either, as far as I know. They managed to re-introduce Star Trek into the mind of the general public, and it might eventually prove the viability of a new Series, just like STIV managed to get TNG going.
The most recent Star Trek movie I would consider good was Galaxy Quest. And at this point it's older than a few Star Trek movies (and is better than the entire TNG film series). But what's most important is that it captures the 'feel' of the setting better than most Trek has been able to do for a while now. In my mind, that makes it more a ST movie than the recent real ones have been.

The bar for good for me is set at something that actually uses the setting/characters in a way that is consistent with the setting (no Insurrection), and leaves an impression on me longer than it takes to see the next big-budget special effects roller coaster movie. Something that provides a story that is more interesting than a 'this is a bunch of stuff that happens' synopsis. Forgettable Trek is bad Trek. GQ, like I noted earlier, was the only recent Trek movie to really pass that bar.

As for space adventure stuff, maybe Avatar 2 will provide some hope for a space adventure franchise. Granted, the story is not likely to take place anywhere but on the surface of a single planet, but at least it's a planet you have to get into a spaceship to go visit, so it meets the bare minimum criteria for 'exploration' that is needed for a space adventure movie or show.

[SuperPanda]

Tim Russ (Tuvok) was also working on something like this last I saw, though I'd be much more interested in a Worf based series than Tuvok.

I could see Worf in the roll of a mentor being pretty fun. Worf in charge of a crew full of fresh Academy recruits would be hilarious and still have room for all kinds of interesting Trek-like moments.

With the return of Voyager there is now the potential for photonic crewmembers. The series is set to have Klingons, Ferengi, Andorians, Romulans, Cardassians, Bajorans, all under the same roof... if they're young and foolish that just makes it more "fun."

Sadly I doubt it would happen.


Re: Movies debates.

Motion Picture - Completely different beast than the new films. They really don't belong to the same genres and have next to none of the same target demo.
WoK - Best of them all
ST III - flawed but fun enough.
ST IV - Hilarious and awesome... doesn't make a lick of sense, in a notably different genre than most of them, but wonderful for fans.
ST V - Shatner's personal ego stroking.
ST VI - Better in the original Klingon (One of the best).
ST Generations - eh, really just an extra long TNG episode. Had potential that it didn't know how to use.
ST First Contact - Fun despite being riddled with holes
ST Insurection - eh, really just an extra long TNG episode (especially because they'd already very similar plots). But there was enough plain silly to work with that cast. Watchable if you were a TNG fan, but not outside that.
ST Nemesis - Failed attempt to drastically shift tone. Obviously tried to draw from WoK but equally clearly didn't understand WoK.
ST 2009 - Fun, Silly, Pretty. Successful tone shift. No longer a sci-fi film with action elements but now purely an action film cosplaying as Sci-Fi, but very fun all the same.
ST ITD - A visually impressive flurry of "awesomer" set-pieces loosesly tied together (if at all) by a script completely unworthy of the rather impressive actors who had to work with it. Even more obviously tried to draw from, and then upstage, WoK but equally clearly didn't understand WoK.

When I look at it. ST ITD is definitely a better film than Nemesis, but it is also far more insulting, both in its assumptions of the viewer's intellect and in its treatment of the franchise... which is saying alot because Nemesis is not good in either of those respects.

2009 I'll quibble about and complain about, but I liked it all the same.

Would the franchise be better off without 2009? Almost certainly not.
Would the franchise be better off without ITD? Jury's still out. I did not find it coherent or cohesive.

[Rakaydos]

I didnt see that much of DS9, but based on what other people have mentined in this thread, I'm gonna throw together a pitch. Let me knw if any of my plot points contradict setting lore.

The Federation is putting together a colaborative, multinational exploration of XXX Quadrant. None of the other groups want to follow a federation captian, until the Klingon empire browbeats the Federation into making Worf a captian and giving him command of the expedition.

Captian Worf is loyal to the federation, but the federation admral he reports to hates his guts and wants him fired, his Brother the klingon chanceler wants first pick of the worlds in the region, the human security ensign is intimidated by the Cardassian, Romulan, and Kzinti crew, who are so fractious that Worf has to PERSONALLY put each of them in their place. (and after he turns his back, they go back to political espinauge)

Everyone on the ship has an agenda, and very few of them actually have to do with exploring the quadrant. And Captian Worf has to get them to work together well enough that his boss doesnt fire him.

[Kitten Champion]

Come to think of it, the Federation is the only major power in the quadrant which explores. Everyone else is either looking for places to conquer, are performing military surveillance, or looking for economic opportunities where they can.

[Aotrs Commander]

We can only hope, since as mentioned above, it seems pretty clear that the film franchise is once again dead in the water.

Where are you guys getting that information from? A cursory google/wiki search seems to indicate that it's still a go, if in the planning stages (no director yet, but there are writers working on it), but tenatively expected for a 2016 release (for the 50th anniversary), at least as recently as a couple of months ago.

While it might be in development hell, potentially, nothing I've read there suggests that it's completely functionally dead...

Wishful thinking maybe?

(Though personally, I liked both movies. Yes, while they weren't the best Star Trek movies - they were better than the worst ones. (Again, though, to sinlge out one in particular while only having watched Nemesis once, it's failings were redeemed by having a cacking good starship battle... And I thought Star Trek V was hilarious, personally...))

[Traab]

Come to think of it, the Federation is the only major power in the quadrant which explores. Everyone else is either looking for places to conquer, are performing military surveillance, or looking for economic opportunities where they can.

True, its like, the federation is trapped in the old days of colonization and exploration, "Hey, I wonder whats on the other side of that mountain ridge?" While the other empires and nations are more modern day keeping what they have, and eying their weaker neighbors for a chance at a power grab. Too be fair though, my mind boggles at the very idea of exploration in space. I mean, its not just, "Head west till you see something new." Its 3 dimensional, and the distances are so vast that unexplored territory takes a life time of travel at sci fi speeds just to reach. How do they do it? Do they look at a star chart and say, "These stars in red havent been examined yet. Pick one and head that way, cataloging whatever you find on the trip. Then pick another and keep on going."?

[Kitten Champion]

Too be fair though, my mind boggles at the very idea of exploration in space. I mean, its not just, "Head west till you see something new." Its 3 dimensional, and the distances are so vast that unexplored territory takes a life time of travel at sci fi speeds just to reach. How do they do it? Do they look at a star chart and say, "These stars in red havent been examined yet. Pick one and head that way, cataloging whatever you find on the trip. Then pick another and keep on going."?

Actually that's what's always confused me about the premise to DS9. I mean I can see the obvious importance of the only known stable wormhole to be discovered regardless of where it goes, I recognize its religious significance to Bajor, and the Prophets are nothing to sneeze at in any context, but why do people care about the Gamma quadrant? It's just more unexplored space, it's not like they discovered the ocean passage to India. What makes that unexplored space any more worthy of exploration than pointing in any random direction and flying thaddaway? Is the Alpha Quadrant boring or something, and they've just been making do because they lack alternatives?

[The Glyphstone]

Where are you guys getting that information from? A cursory google/wiki search seems to indicate that it's still a go, if in the planning stages (no director yet, but there are writers working on it), but tenatively expected for a 2016 release (for the 50th anniversary), at least as recently as a couple of months ago.

While it might be in development hell, potentially, nothing I've read there suggests that it's completely functionally dead...

Wishful thinking maybe?

(Though personally, I liked both movies. Yes, while they weren't the best Star Trek movies - they were better than the worst ones. (Again, though, to sinlge out one in particular while only having watched Nemesis once, it's failings were redeemed by having a cacking good starship battle... And I thought Star Trek V was hilarious, personally...))

Because someone quoted that all three primary actors are booked on other projects out till 2015-2018. Until we develop cloning, the wishful thinking is more that they can be doing two movies at once. In this case, and particularly in the short-lived and fickle minds of moviegoing audiences, development hell is for all intents and purposes dead in the water. If they want a 2016 release, it'd involve replacing Kirk, McCoy, and Uhura with new actors/actress, and that wouldn't go well either.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone
Because someone quoted that all three primary actors are booked on other projects out till 2015-2018.

'Twas I, and I didn't even check Simon Pegg or the guy who played Sulu--the latter of whom has been on Sleepy Hollow in what looks like a recurring role. As Glyphstone notes, to get another movie out in the next couple of years would require an entirely new lineup, which would be a nonstarter.


Originally Posted by Cikomyr
But there's no reason to be offended at the idea that someone thinks differently than you.

I'm not remotely offended. But to paraphrase Inara, I'm slightly appalled at your taste. :smallbiggrin:


Originally Posted by Cikomyr
...and it might eventually prove the viability of a new Series, just like STIV managed to get TNG going.

I take your overall point, and I think it's valid in itself; but offhand I'm not sure if Voyage Home was the tipping point that led to the green-light for TNG. There had been development for a new series, "Phase II," in the early 70s, and it was the success of Star Wars that convinced Paramount to change course to feature films instead. But the idea for a series kept percolating after the movies were underway--and TNG was markedly different in tone from Voyage Home, so I don't know if that particular installment had a major impact.


Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin
As for space adventure stuff, maybe Avatar 2 will provide some hope for a space adventure franchise. Granted, the story is not likely to take place anywhere but on the surface of a single planet, but at least it's a planet you have to get into a spaceship to go visit, so it meets the bare minimum criteria for 'exploration' that is needed for a space adventure movie or show.

Avatar is indeed a little different that way, but one can certainly hope it will renew that sense of exploratory curiosity--and, dare I say, genuine amazement. Trek rarely managed that in the various series, but they did have their moments.


Originally Posted by SuperPanda
Re: Movies debates.

*summaries*

I think your summaries are pretty much spot-on.

(But what is a "photonic" crewmember? I don't think you mean made of holograms....)




Originally Posted by SuperPanda
The series is set to have Klingons, Ferengi, Andorians, Romulans, Cardassians, Bajorans, all under the same roof....


Originally Posted by Rakaydos
The Federation is putting together a colaborative, multinational exploration of XXX Quadrant.

...Everyone on the ship has an agenda, and very few of them actually have to do with exploring the quadrant. And Captian Worf has to get them to work together well enough that his boss doesnt fire him.

Both these ideas could be fun, and would give a comfortably TNG/DS9 feel, with all the familiar species and their rivalries. If done well enough it could be a serviceable new outing, with Worf as the embodiment of continuity from previous installments.

The trouble here is that I think the Trek franchise has pretty much exhausted the story possibilities with these very well-known races, and more generally with the idea of essentially human-looking species with minor spots or latex ridges around their faces.

Voyager demonstrated that even when given a blank slate to work with--an immense far region of the galaxy, completely unknown and unexplored--the writers were so devoid of creativity, not to mention interstellar clue, that they fell back on the same tired rehash of human-looking species with latex on their faces, doing exactly the same thing as everywhere else. They didn't know how to be innovative, and all they managed was a feeble echo of TNG.

At least twice now, once in TOS and once in the sixth season of TNG, the writers gave themselves a fleck of rationale for all the human-looking species with latex on their faces, which was that some deeply ancient (and conveniently humanoid) species had seeded humans around the galaxy (the TOS version) or tinkered with proto-DNA to make it more likely to evolve humanoid forms (the TNG approach). I don't think these ideas could support a modern series--the new BSG very conspicuously avoided any alien races whatsover, and Defiance unintentionally shows just how badly the concept can be done.

So a new Trek series--or a new SF series in general--would need to be far more creative with the alien species they design, and ideally would develop them as ancient inhabitants of the galaxy, with humans and their few allies the fragile, tentative newcomers. And the older species shouldn't just be puttering around on their homeworlds with shiny cities or whatnot--they should be working on massive astroengineering projects, playing with stars like marbles and influencing the course of galaxies.

Even though the pacing was exceptionally poor, the first Trek movie at least attempted to show the unbelievable scale of an alien civilization--and there's no reason a new series couldn't go far beyond. A new Trek series shouldn't just explore this or that corner of our galaxy--they should be making strides into the many satellite galaxies looping around our own, and planning a massive exploratory effort towards Andromeda.

A new Trek series with Worf and a disparate crew poking around this galaxy would be fun, but it wouldn't really break any new ground. If a new series wants to really push boundaries, they need wildly imaginative new species, which are fundamentally alien to us, both biologically and culturally--varelse, in Orson Scott Card's terminology. That would be the real test of Federation values and exploratory acumen--not finding common ground with species that look and think pretty much like ourselves, but discovering how to interact in a meaningful way with utterly foreign creatures capable of working on a scale the Federation can barely imagine. That's the series I want to see.

[Surrealistik]

I'd kind of like to see a Star Trek show that centres on the Federation's ideal compromising gestapo Section 31 (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Section_31), and all the internal and external conflict/moral quandaries its actions generate/provoke thereof. Beyond that it'd be topical, and could investigate some parallels with troubling RL developments that have arisen lately in an interesting way.

[Traab]

Actually that's what's always confused me about the premise to DS9. I mean I can see the obvious importance of the only known stable wormhole to be discovered regardless of where it goes, I recognize its religious significance to Bajor, and the Prophets are nothing to sneeze at in any context, but why do people care about the Gamma quadrant? It's just more unexplored space, it's not like they discovered the ocean passage to India. What makes that unexplored space any more worthy of exploration than pointing in any random direction and flying thaddaway? Is the Alpha Quadrant boring or something, and they've just been making do because they lack alternatives?

They probably already have explored the alpha quadrant fairly thoroughly. And a short cut to a distant area that HASNT been explored is probably huge news. Imagine if christopher columbus could walk through a portal and go from europe to the middle of north america. He would save the costs of outfitting three ships and crews, the danger of the trip, and literally from day 1 he is seeing new stuff they have no records of.

[Cikomyr]

Actually that's what's always confused me about the premise to DS9. I mean I can see the obvious importance of the only known stable wormhole to be discovered regardless of where it goes, I recognize its religious significance to Bajor, and the Prophets are nothing to sneeze at in any context, but why do people care about the Gamma quadrant? It's just more unexplored space, it's not like they discovered the ocean passage to India. What makes that unexplored space any more worthy of exploration than pointing in any random direction and flying thaddaway? Is the Alpha Quadrant boring or something, and they've just been making do because they lack alternatives?

Like Traab said, even considering that the Wormhole is pretty far away from Federation core, it's still much closer than the Federation's traditional frontier. easier to set up exploration opportunities to go there than outfit a starship that needs 1 year just to get to the frontier and THEN start exploring.

Also, the potential for the development of a trans-Wormhole trade network right next to the Development World of Major was major. Bajor badly needed the ressources to rebuild and restore their industrial basis; being the equivalent of Panama sure would help them achieve that, and I am sure the Federation saw that potential all around.


Voyager demonstrated that even when given a blank slate to work with--an immense far region of the galaxy, completely unknown and unexplored--the writers were so devoid of creativity, not to mention interstellar clue, that they fell back on the same tired rehash of human-looking species with latex on their faces, doing exactly the same thing as everywhere else. They didn't know how to be innovative, and all they managed was a fe

Don't blame the Franchise's potential for that abject failure; blame the executives in charge. Rick Berman is the one who forced conservaticism on Voyager, and made sure the series could never, EVER rise to anything more than a feeble TNG 2.0.

Contrast with DS9, who actually dared to take changes. Or later seasons of Enterprise, where Berman stopped being such a creative restrictor and instead allowed people to take liberties with the formula, and actually tried to set out new frontier as to what the series could achieve.

"Starship going into space" is a formula that can work, if you actually DO SOMETHING SENSIBLE WITH IT, and don't rely on 1990-era TV Episodic formula. Battlestar Galactica proved it can work if you put thought into the process. Its weakest episodes were the stand-alone ones.

Edit: going back on the topic of exploration, I always wondered why Starfleet modus Operandi wasn't to build a thousand probes and send them each to different trajectories aiming for various systems, to act both as a massive communication network as well as early scouting potential. Starfleet would then create their exploration mission based on the early scouting reports given by the Early Scouting Probes Network, as unreliable its information it might give :smallwink:

[Legato Endless]

The probe argument is just general thoughtless on the writers, who ascribe everything to the work of starships. I cringed when I saw Undiscovered Country a few years ago and heard Sulu, talk about how his ship had been sent to cataloge gaseous anamolies for the last 6 weeks. No wonder they keep finding Dyson Spheres and energy draining planets just randomly popping up in various systems. Their task management system is awful.

General agreement with Palanan. That sounds like it would be solid for a sci fi series.

[turkishproverb]

I'd kind of like to see a Star Trek show that centres on the Federation's ideal compromising gestapo Section 31 (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Section_31), and all the internal and external conflict/moral quandaries its actions generate/provoke thereof. Beyond that it'd be topical, and could investigate some parallels with troubling RL developments that have arisen lately in an interesting way.

I think that was the plan for Tim Russ's project.

[Cikomyr]

I think that was the plan for Tim Russ's project.

I disagree. Star Trek's core should not be about shadow politics.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having shadow politics in Star Trek, don't get me wrong. But it should not be the focus of the Series.


Although Tuvok as an intelligence agent would be awesome. I always felt disapointed we never got to learn more about his backstory. Tuvok always been... machiavellian and rather brutally violent when he needed to. We know he's been an operative for a while, and that he had to do stuff he isn't proud of.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Don't blame the Franchise's potential for that abject failure; blame the executives in charge. Rick Berman is the one who forced conservaticism on Voyager, and made sure the series could never, EVER rise to anything more than a feeble TNG 2.0.

Extremely good point here. I suppose it's worth distinguishing between "the franchise" as a conceptual entity, and the mass of people who threw themselves into TNG, wore themselves out, sputtered back to life with DS9 and then inched along on their bellies with Voyager and Enterprise.

--Okay, maybe not entirely objective there, but that's how it felt. I agree that the overall concept still has potential--just implemented by a completely different group of people, and ideally with a far broader vision.


Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Battlestar Galactica proved it can work if you put thought into the process. Its weakest episodes were the stand-alone ones.

Absolutely so, on both counts. It's worth noting that those stand-alone episodes were the result of direct executive interference with the series storyline. They wanted to change the format to attract new viewers, but the show just hadn't been structured that way and it really showed. I don't know the details of how BSG avoided capsizing altogether, but I'm glad they were elastic enough to spring back to their intended shape.


Originally Posted by Cikomyr
...I always wondered why Starfleet modus Operandi wasn't to build a thousand probes and send them each to different trajectories aiming for various systems, to act both as a massive communication network as well as early scouting potential.

I think this was actually done earlier in the timeline, at least to some extent, given the number of old probes that various Federation vessels have run across. Remember, there are enough of them out there for Klingons to use them as target practice, so there must be quite a swarm.

:smalltongue:

Probably the thinking would be that a probe is extremely limited in its payload and its potential responses, and a starship has the capacity to represent its homeworld in ways a probe never could. Each starship is essentially its home civilization in microcosm, so in a sense the Federation is sending tiny droplets of itself to handle each first encounter. This is a rather holistic view, and might not jibe with today's focus on remote sensing--but remember that drones, robots, ROVs and the like are pitched in large part as a way to reduce human risk, and that's an aspect of exploration which those in Starfleet have clearly embraced.

Also, V'Ger probably convinced a lot of people on Earth that independent probes really aren't the best approach.

:smallbiggrin:


Originally Posted by Legato Endless
No wonder they keep finding Dyson Spheres and energy draining planets just randomly popping up in various systems. Their task management system is awful.

Well, a Dyson Sphere is pretty much designed to absorb all the outgoing energy from its central star, so by its nature it's not easy to spot. You'd need to do some careful gravimetric work to detect its presence--and as Generations showed, the Federation can certainly do this kind of analysis, but they need a starship on the scene.

The other point about probes is that Starfleet operates tremendously sensitive listening posts and deep-space telescopic arrays, which have been referenced in many forms ever since the very first Trek movie. Even today we're not too many years away from mapping continents on extrasolar worlds, so by the 24th Century it's probably possible to run facial recognition on a species halfway across the Orion Arm.

So the Federation has probably done a lot of the planning and prioritization already. Keep in mind there are two or three hundred billion stars in our galaxy, so that's a hella lotta dwarf stars to sort through.

.

[Cikomyr]

Extremely good point here. I suppose it's worth distinguishing between "the franchise" as a conceptual entity, and the mass of people who threw themselves into TNG, wore themselves out, sputtered back to life with DS9 and then inched along on their bellies with Voyager and Enterprise.

Actually, DS9's writer team was pretty new. TNG's team was sent over to Voyager, and it showed badly. DS9 had to build from scratch its effort, drawing on a number of skilled amateurs who did not thought of themselves above the fan's desire. Just look at how they answered to Bashir's earlier screwup (They fixed it) compared to Voyager's answer to Neelix's earlier screwup (they... didn't cared).

Writers like Moore were given the liberty and flexibility, and everybody was given priorities regarding the evolution of individual characters. They saw how characters were developping, and they pre-empted their downgrade to scrappy status with character-based storylines (the best example I can give you is how the writer team felt they were losing Kira to its extermist and violence tendencies, so they made 2 episodes that had to kick off her personal growth; "Progress" and "Duet". Kira had to come to term with the fact that she was part of a team, and that she was working for "The Man", but also realize that is wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

Compared to Voyager, who had absolutely no handle on their character whatsoever. Chakotay was an insulting indian stereotype caricature, Harry Kim had zero character development. When Moore came over to Voyager after DS9 ended, he got writing a B'Lonna episode and asked the writing team "How would Tores would react based on X", and they just answered: "We don't know, make something up". And that was 5 season INTO THE SHOW.

That's clear incompetence on the part of the writing team. Also signs of lazyness is the overreliance of technobabble to pad out episode; whereas DS9 favored character development and moments to fill out airtime.


I think this was actually done earlier in the timeline, at least to some extent, given the number of old probes that various Federation vessels have run across. Remember, there are enough of them out there for Klingons to use them as target practice, so there must be quite a swarm.

:smalltongue:

Probably the thinking would be that a probe is extremely limited in its payload and its potential responses, and a starship has the capacity to represent its homeworld in ways a probe never could. Each starship is essentially its home civilization in microcosm, so in a sense the Federation is sending tiny droplets of itself to handle each first encounter. This is a rather holistic view, and might not jibe with today's focus on remote sensing--but remember that drones, robots, ROVs and the like are pitched in large part as a way to reduce human risk, and that's an aspect of exploration which those in Starfleet have clearly embraced.

Also, V'Ger probably convinced a lot of people on Earth that independent probes really aren't the best approach.

:smallbiggrin:

Just have the probes meant to just chart the system, report any form of anomaly (intelligent or otherwise). It would answer any form of communication attempt with peaceful greetings, but would self-destruct at the first sign of hostility (to avoid giving intel or technology into the wrong hand).

[Rakaydos]

So a new Trek series--or a new SF series in general--would need to be far more creative with the alien species they design, and ideally would develop them as ancient inhabitants of the galaxy, with humans and their few allies the fragile, tentative newcomers. And the older species shouldn't just be puttering around on their homeworlds with shiny cities or whatnot--they should be working on massive astroengineering projects, playing with stars like marbles and influencing the course of galaxies.
A new Trek series with Worf and a disparate crew poking around this galaxy would be fun, but it wouldn't really break any new ground. If a new series wants to really push boundaries, they need wildly imaginative new species, which are fundamentally alien to us, both biologically and culturally--varelse, in Orson Scott Card's terminology. That would be the real test of Federation values and exploratory acumen--not finding common ground with species that look and think pretty much like ourselves, but discovering how to interact in a meaningful way with utterly foreign creatures capable of working on a scale the Federation can barely imagine. That's the series I want to see.

Which is why they need to revive the Kzinti as a Star trek race.
The Kzinti are from Larry Nivin's Known space books, and made a cameo appearance in ST:TAS (an episide based on the known space story "Slaver Weapon") They were going to be added as an antagonist to Enterprise's 5th season, but it got canceled.

An aggressive and militaristic felinioid race (the first one- Kilrathi are based on Niven, not the other way around) the Kzinti Patriarchy subscribe to the "Scream and leap" school of tactics. They are the top of the food chain, lord of all they survey.

Throw in the more recent niven explanations of Jotoki slave-techs so the culture doesnt backslide, and you shoud have a nice antagonist that Worf can regretfully blow up every other week.

[Traab]

They did something similar when they first started out, launching probes everywhere. They screwed up though and included tech info on them that several worlds werent ready for, creating massive problems up to and including genocides and such. I think that likely turned them off the unmanned probe idea in general.

[RCgothic]

(Though personally, I liked both movies. Yes, while they weren't the best Star Trek movies - they were better than the worst ones. (Again, though, to sinlge out one in particular while only having watched Nemesis once, it's failings were redeemed by having a cacking good starship battle... And I thought Star Trek V was hilarious, personally...))

The cloaking device which permitted constant weapon fire had me banging my head against the seat in front. The amount of weapons emission coming off the Scimitar should have had the Enterprise nailing it with every shot. Kinda ruined that battle for me and the rest of the film wasn't anything brilliant either.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Actually, DS9's writer team was pretty new. TNG's team was sent over to Voyager, and it showed badly.

Well, you've got a much better handle on the production history than I do.

Fact is, I dropped DS9 around fifth season, and never actually finished the series until just a few months ago. I watched the first season of Voyager when it aired, dropped it like a brick, and barely glanced at Enterprise. The few episodes I looked at, in syndication years later, were utterly painful to witness. If the burnt-out TNG writers were sent to Voyager, and further constricted by executive pressure, it makes a sad sort of sense.


Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Chakotay was an insulting indian stereotype caricature, Harry Kim had zero character development.

Chakotay was one of the absolute worst things about Voyager, and that's saying something. Did they ever have the stones to give him a tribal affiliation, or was he forever a generic Native American?


Originally Posted by Cikomyr
[A probe] would answer any form of communication attempt with peaceful greetings, but would self-destruct at the first sign of hostility (to avoid giving intel or technology into the wrong hand).

This could be tricky, though, because the self-destruct might be triggered by alien behavior which fits the probe's parameters of hostility, but which might really be a form of territorial threat-display, essentially a different sort of greeting. The probe's self-destruct, in turn, might be considered a hostile act rather than an appropriate response.

Also, a self-destruct doesn't automatically destroy all traces of information--even vaporized residue could give isotopic proportions which might provide clues to the probe's origin. Worse yet, what happens if the alien species makes first contact by way of tendrils, and the explosion sends a neural shock back to the main vessel? Or the probe is taken aboard more quickly than it can react to, and ends up blowing a hole in the side of the alien craft?

It's easy to argue all sorts of unknown scenarios, and I can really see the decision being made to have a live crew available to make split-second decisions based on both protocol and intuition.


Originally Posted by Rakaydos
The Kzinti are from Larry [Niven]'s Known space books, and made a cameo appearance in ST:TAS (an episide based on the known space story "Slaver Weapon") They were going to be added as an antagonist to Enterprise's 5th season, but it got canceled.

I've read most of Niven's Known Space books, and the first few titles in the Man-Kzin Wars series, so I'm familiar with them. I did note your mentioning them earlier. :smallwink:

--Familiar, yes, but I've never been too convinced at the crossover. The Known Space novels are in a completely separate continuum from the Federation timeline, and it never really made sense to me to import them into Trek.


Originally Posted by Rakaydos
An aggressive and militaristic felinioid race (the first one- Kilrathi are based on Niven, not the other way around)....

And don't forget the Mirak from Starfleet Command, which were also an aggressive and militaristic felinoid race.

:smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

Chakotay was one of the absolute worst things about Voyager, and that's saying something. Did they ever have the stones to give him a tribal affiliation, or was he forever a generic Native American?

Do you know who Rick Berman took advice from to build up the Native American's part of Chakotay?

Jamake Highwater

For the record, here's what's been said about Highwater:


"This person is not an Indian, has no personal or professional experience or academic expertise regarding Indians, has falsely held himself forth as an Indian and an Indian expert, has claimed academic credentials he does not possess and has published under his own name extremely derivative materials from the works of others. Importantly, this person has invented and repeated stereotypic and biased information about Indians."

Just to tell you the extensive research Rick Berman and his team achieved to reach their goal. Berman and his clique were nothing but a bunch of lazy-ass frauds who were handed over the keys to the Star Trek franchise.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

I disagree. Star Trek's core should not be about shadow politics.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having shadow politics in Star Trek, don't get me wrong. But it should not be the focus of the Series.


Although Tuvok as an intelligence agent would be awesome. I always felt disapointed we never got to learn more about his backstory. Tuvok always been... machiavellian and rather brutally violent when he needed to. We know he's been an operative for a while, and that he had to do stuff he isn't proud of.

Tim Russ's project, Star Trek: Renegades as I recall, had Tuvok as the head of Section 31, following orders from Admiral Pavel Chekov, sending a rag-tag band of misfits, criminals, and rogues off in a covert ship to deal with a crisis that Starfleet proper can't touch. A mysterious force or something is cutting the Federation off from resources and worlds it can't do without, I think. Sounded like Tuvok wouldn't actually be on the mission.

Looked it up (http://startrekrenegades.com/home/). Their pilot or movie thing or whatever is in the editing phase. But I'm pretty sure it was just the pilot. The pitch. Whatever you call it.

Anyway, I'm not overly hopeful about any Star Trek that may be in development, honestly. Renegades looks too much like Stargate Universe and while Worf finally getting the captain's chair sounds cool, it'll probably be filtered through today's grim'n'gritty filter or the Abramsverse. And that, as Dukat would surely inform us, is sad.

[Cikomyr]

Tim Russ's project, Star Trek: Renegades as I recall, had Tuvok as the head of Section 31, following orders from Admiral Pavel Chekov, sending a rag-tag band of misfits, criminals, and rogues off in a covert ship to deal with a crisis that Starfleet proper can't touch. A mysterious force or something is cutting the Federation off from resources and worlds it can't do without, I think. Sounded like Tuvok wouldn't actually be on the mission.

Looked it up (http://startrekrenegades.com/home/). Their pilot or movie thing or whatever is in the editing phase. But I'm pretty sure it was just the pilot. The pitch. Whatever you call it.

Anyway, I'm not overly hopeful about any Star Trek that may be in development, honestly. Renegades looks too much like Stargate Universe and while Worf finally getting the captain's chair sounds cool, it'll probably be filtered through today's grim'n'gritty filter or the Abramsverse. And that, as Dukat would surely inform us, is sad.

That looks.. interesting, for sure.

[SuperPanda]

(1)
I think your summaries are pretty much spot-on.

(But what is a "photonic" crewmember? I don't think you mean made of holograms....)


(2)
So a new Trek series--or a new SF series in general--would need to be far more creative with the alien species they design, and ideally would develop them as ancient inhabitants of the galaxy, with humans and their few allies the fragile, tentative newcomers. And the older species shouldn't just be puttering around on their homeworlds with shiny cities or whatnot--they should be working on massive astroengineering projects, playing with stars like marbles and influencing the course of galaxies.

(3)
That would be the real test of Federation values and exploratory acumen--not finding common ground with species that look and think pretty much like ourselves, but discovering how to interact in a meaningful way with utterly foreign creatures capable of working on a scale the Federation can barely imagine. That's the series I want to see.

Re (1): Thanks and yes that's what I meant. Voyager had an episode in which they encountered "photonic life" and they had a big thing with the Doctor on "photonic rights." While it was mostly a retread of Data's plots it does bring new and interesting issues to bear, especially given how casually the series was able to make fully functional and sentient holograms there is a world of potential story telling there which Data didn't have and Voyager only touched on.

What kind of crime is it to alter a sentient / free-willed holograms code while they are offline (or asleep)? Voyager had an episode on that, but before it was generally accepted as "wrong." Once sentient holograms are recognized as their own species with their own rights a story like that changes quite a bit. What happens if a hologram is upset about their design parameters and chooses to kill their creator... is there a legal standing to a grievance about poor design? What if the problem is that the code was faulty and the Hologram is suffering a memory leak which will eventually rob them of their intelligence and crash their program (AI alzheimers)... Does a hologram (or other AI) have the right to refuse maintenance and performance updates, how will that right be reflected in the ship and crew because the hologram is equally individual and (literally) part of the ship. Is an engineering mishap which cuts power to holo-projectors and corrupts a program equivilent to wrongful death... lots of good old fashion social sci-fi potential in that alone... let alone the politics of having Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, Bajorans, Cardassians, ex-Borg, and more all working together in a close space.

(2.) Sounds like Brin's Uplift Triology. I think the obvious reason for the latex forhead aliens is the same reason we aren't likely to see many Farscape like diversions from it: Budget.
It really shouldn't be too hard to find some talented CG artists fresh out of school to do the aliens, but then you run into the limitations of acting with CG. The more realistic we aim for with aliens... the less we are likely to see them.

(3.) Yeah, I'd watch that heck out of that too.

[SaintRidley]

On a more "fun and games" note which should make all Trekkies smile, it turns out the Danish translation of "Let It Go" from Frozen changes the title to "Lad Det Ske," which is how the Danes translated Picard when he said "Make it so."

Can't help but picture Patrick Stewart as Elsa and Ian McKellen as Anna now, can you?

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled Trekking.

[JadedDM]

Which is why they need to revive the Kzinti as a Star trek race.

Actually, they did revive them in Star Trek Online. Except they are called the Ferasans (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ferasan) now, due to copyright issues with Larry Nivin's books. They are part of the Klingon Empire now, along with the Gorn, Nausicaans, Orions and Letheans.


Voyager had an episode in which they encountered "photonic life" and they had a big thing with the Doctor on "photonic rights."

In STO, the Doctor pursued those rights in the Federation for years after Voyager returned home. He finally got them, too, after a long and difficult civil rights battle.

[Traab]

Was Data his lawyer? Or did he manage to get Picard on his side? :smallbiggrin:

[JadedDM]

Nope, Data was destroyed in the events of Nemesis, in 2379. He was brought back via B-4, though, but that happened afterward. After Picard became the ambassador to Vulcan in 2385, Data became captain of the Enterprise-E. But now that the Enterprise-F is flying around, not sure what became of Data after that.

Nope, rather, it was the Soong Foundation (a group affiliated with the Daystrom Institute; they were the ones who brought back Data, in fact) that defended The Doctor. Indeed, they played a pivotal role in not only helping The Doctor, but all Photonic lifeforms to be viewed in the Federation as sapient, free lifeforms. In the end, The Doctor was given the rank of Lieutenant Commander and made the Chief Medical Officer on the Galor IV research station.

[TheThan]

True, its like, the federation is trapped in the old days of colonization and exploration, "Hey, I wonder whats on the other side of that mountain ridge?" While the other empires and nations are more modern day keeping what they have, and eying their weaker neighbors for a chance at a power grab. Too be fair though, my mind boggles at the very idea of exploration in space. I mean, its not just, "Head west till you see something new." Its 3 dimensional, and the distances are so vast that unexplored territory takes a life time of travel at sci fi speeds just to reach. How do they do it? Do they look at a star chart and say, "These stars in red havent been examined yet. Pick one and head that way, cataloging whatever you find on the trip. Then pick another and keep on going."?

There’s lots of reasons to explore.
Gaining new land for people to inhabit
Gaining new resources to exploit/use
seek out new life and new civilization
Boldly go where no one has gone before (same reason people climb El Capitan)
Conquer new life and new civilizations
Establish trade with new life and new civilizations

That’s just off the top of my head.
If someone found some new unexplored frontier on earth, you really don’t think people would jump at the chance to lay claim to it (heck this was the entire premise of Return of Superman). Sure the way The Federation goes about it is VERY simplified, but the point is that there are plenty of good reasons to go exploring.


Nope, Data was destroyed in the events of Nemesis, in 2379. He was brought back via B-4, though, but that happened afterward. After Picard became the ambassador to Vulcan in 2385, Data became captain of the Enterprise-E. But now that the Enterprise-F is flying around, not sure what became of Data after that.

Personally I think B-4 is the worst travesty of Nemisis. Transferring data’s mind (memory algorithms or whatever) into B-4’s brain essentially cheapens Data’s death. Instead of the heroic sacrifice he pulls to save Picard and the Enterprise; they instead decided to make him immortal, to kill him off without actually killing him off.

[JadedDM]

Eh, his sacrifice was more unnecessary than heroic. Apparently, despite having a big positronic brain, Data forgot that the shuttles all have transporters, too.

(In truth, Brent Spiner just wanted the character dead because he felt he was getting too old to play an ageless android.)

Still, I hope one day Data makes an appearance in STO. They already have Spock, Worf, Sela and Tuvok (all voiced by their original actors).

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Eh, the chance is good that if Data's not on the Enterprise, he's at Oxford, as seen in the future portions of 'All Good Things' at the end of TNG, the one episode that kinda sorta demands that Data come back from Nemesis.

Eh, I don't think we should overly rely on STO for canon futures, anyway. It's Federation captain are far to piratical for that. Blow up a Jem-hadar warship, and before the wreckage has a chance to cool they've got engineers welding chunks of it to their own ship's hull. Damn loot systems. Also the way station commanders keep giving Vice Admirals orders.

[Rawhide]

Eh, the chance is good that if Data's not on the Enterprise, he's at Oxford, as seen in the future portions of 'All Good Things' at the end of TNG, the one episode that kinda sorta demands that Data come back from Nemesis.

Eh, I don't think we should overly rely on STO for canon futures, anyway. It's Federation captain are far to piratical for that. Blow up a Jem-hadar warship, and before the wreckage has a chance to cool they've got engineers welding chunks of it to their own ship's hull. Damn loot systems. Also the way station commanders keep giving Vice Admirals orders.

The future in All Good Things is definitely not canon. That future universe folded at the end of the episode and is further demonstrated by the destruction of the Enterprise D.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Bah. Bah, I say! She's partially salvageable, and Riker's egotistical enough to do it! 'Twas the D's chair he always dreamed of!

And I did specify kinda sorta.

[Cikomyr]

Bah. Bah, I say! She's partially salvageable, and Riker's egotistical enough to do it! 'Twas the D's chair he always dreamed of!

And I did specify kinda sorta.

Not at all.

They explicitely acknowledged at the end of the episode that by knowing about the future, they changed it and would not repeat certain mistakes.

For example, Troi ended up with Riker, rather than killing herself in an emo fit because she was split between Riker and Worf.

the Enterprise-D was destroyed.

Data is dead..

Picard and Crusher.. ... well.. okay. I don't know if they did ended up marrying in the real timeline. they probably didn't after learning that they divorced.

[Hopeless]

Not at all.

They explicitely acknowledged at the end of the episode that by knowing about the future, they changed it and would not repeat certain mistakes.

Picard and Crusher.. ... well.. okay. I don't know if they did ended up marrying in the real timeline. they probably didn't after learning that they divorced.

Oh I don't know about that!

Q - Marriage Counsellor:smallbiggrin:

[Chen]

Eh, I don't think we should overly rely on STO for canon futures, anyway. It's Federation captain are far to piratical for that. Blow up a Jem-hadar warship, and before the wreckage has a chance to cool they've got engineers welding chunks of it to their own ship's hull. Damn loot systems. Also the way station commanders keep giving Vice Admirals orders.

The orders thing always made me laugh. Doing the Sphere of Influence quest you have random captains telling you "go scan this, go bandage that guy there" etc. I'm a Vice Admiral here, YOU go search the stupid alien hold, I'll stay here and direct thank you very much.

[Cikomyr]

The orders thing always made me laugh. Doing the Sphere of Influence quest you have random captains telling you "go scan this, go bandage that guy there" etc. I'm a Vice Admiral here, YOU go search the stupid alien hold, I'll stay here and direct thank you very much.

It's an imbecile paradigm that "you should increase in rank, because it's an RPG, ur ur ur"

Like how certain RPG makes you progress and you end up with multiple generals-players.

[JadedDM]

Eh, the chance is good that if Data's not on the Enterprise, he's at Oxford, as seen in the future portions of 'All Good Things' at the end of TNG, the one episode that kinda sorta demands that Data come back from Nemesis.

With 50 cats and a patch of grey in his hair. You know, to make him look more distinguished.


Eh, I don't think we should overly rely on STO for canon futures, anyway. It's Federation captain are far to piratical for that. Blow up a Jem-hadar warship, and before the wreckage has a chance to cool they've got engineers welding chunks of it to their own ship's hull. Damn loot systems. Also the way station commanders keep giving Vice Admirals orders.

Eh, I personally consider the storyline canon, but certainly not the mechanics. Otherwise, it's hard to explain how my Vulcan captain's ship keeps blowing up only to respawn a few seconds later, and so forth.

As for the whole rank thing, I just ignore it. My character wears captain's pips and I just pretend he's a captain. As for being ordered around, well, yeah, it is weird how the captain does everything--goes on every away mission, personally takes care of menial labor, and so on and so forth; but it's part of the compromise a video game has to make. It'd be super boring to just sit around, delegating and waiting in our ready rooms for progress reports.

Regarding the events of All Good Things, at least according to STO, some of the things in the alternate future did come true. While the Enterprise-D is destroyed (the current Enterprise is now the F), there is now a Galaxy-X class ship with three nacelles and a battle cloak. Crusher did become captain of a medical ship called the U.S.S. Pasteur, an Olympic-class ship.

Did she and Picard ever get together? Well...when Picard retired from being Ambassador to Vulcan, he settled down in France. Two months later, Crusher decided to settle on Earth as head of Starfleet Medical. It's left ambiguous, but...seems like too much of a coincidence, yeah? :smallwink:

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Alright, my trek cred is a little scrambled. I bow to your expertise, except in things I think are weird or neat. Time travel always muddies things up.

[Talakeal]

Actually that's what's always confused me about the premise to DS9. I mean I can see the obvious importance of the only known stable wormhole to be discovered regardless of where it goes, I recognize its religious significance to Bajor, and the Prophets are nothing to sneeze at in any context, but why do people care about the Gamma quadrant? It's just more unexplored space, it's not like they discovered the ocean passage to India. What makes that unexplored space any more worthy of exploration than pointing in any random direction and flying thaddaway? Is the Alpha Quadrant boring or something, and they've just been making do because they lack alternatives?

I would say it is because it is because the wormhole cuts the travel time down significantly. You could fly to the edge of the known galaxy, and then travel for weeks to find something, or you could instantly transport right into the middle of a heavily populated region instantly.

Of course, Deep Space Nine being on the frontier (hence the Deep Space part) does kind of minimize the benefit.

[Jimorian]

Of course, Deep Space Nine being on the frontier (hence the Deep Space part) does kind of minimize the benefit.

Except that "Deep" Space 9 was one day's warp away from Earth (in at least one episode that's how long it took to fly there). :smalltongue:

As much as I've liked the shows, they always fell down at points in making the galaxy feel as big as it should be. Enterprise for example did a really great job of making it feel like they were on their own to start off with little recourse to backup and support from Earth, then suddenly one episode, they needed to go back and it took something like a couple of weeks, if that.

As for the original topic, my very first thought was that obviously Michael Dorn has become addicted to the makeup chair if he's looking to get involved in another series as Worf!

[Cikomyr]

Except that "Deep" Space 9 was one day's warp away from Earth (in at least one episode that's how long it took to fly there). :smalltongue:

As much as I've liked the shows, they always fell down at points in making the galaxy feel as big as it should be. Enterprise for example did a really great job of making it feel like they were on their own to start off with little recourse to backup and support from Earth, then suddenly one episode, they needed to go back and it took something like a couple of weeks, if that.

As for the original topic, my very first thought was that obviously Michael Dorn has become addicted to the makeup chair if he's looking to get involved in another series as Worf!

Actually, it's been established often that DS9 is quite far away from Earth.

[Chen]

Actually, it's been established often that DS9 is quite far away from Earth.

I think one of the technical manuals (or maybe that Star charts book) has it around 50-60 light years from Earth if I recall. If warp speed is 2-3k times the speed of light getting there in a week or two seems about right.

[Cikomyr]

I think one of the technical manuals (or maybe that Star charts book) has it around 50-60 light years from Earth if I recall. If warp speed is 2-3k times the speed of light getting there in a week or two seems about right.

But I understand Jimor's argument, and I know exactly the episode he is thinking about--> "Paradise Lost". But the episode as a whole was badly framed. The "2 weeks to get to Earth" can still happen.

Either that, or Starfleet has developped some sort of Warp Highway Lanes that allow for faster travel.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jimor
As for the original topic, my very first thought was that obviously Michael Dorn has become addicted to the makeup chair if he's looking to get involved in another series as Worf!

He probably wouldn't mind a new round of attention and fan adulation, that's for sure.


Originally Posted by Jimor
As much as I've liked the shows, they always fell down at points in making the galaxy feel as big as it should be.

This is absolutely true, and it really cut down on the sense of exploration--as well as the essential need for the explorers, at the fringes of known space, to feel thoroughly isolated and alone. That feeling was never really emphasized in TNG, apart from an occasional bit of lip service.

As for Enterprise...ech. One episode, possibly the pilot, had them reaching the Klingon homeworld in three days, with pokey early-warp technology! And yet in TNG the Klingon homeworld is far, far out there. The only thing that makes any sense (apart from ignoring Enterprise entirely) is that the Klingons really did follow Gene Roddenberry's original idea of "Mongol hordes in space," and they simply switched homeworlds every so often.

Of course, that contradicts pretty much everything established in TNG and DS9, and misses the point of a homeworld, but otherwise it's a glaring discrepancy.


Originally Posted by Chen
I think one of the technical manuals (or maybe that Star charts book) has it around 50-60 light years from Earth if I recall.

Fifty lightyears is right next door. It's the corner bagel shop in galactic terms.

At one point in First Contact, Picard tells Lily the dimensions of Federation space, though I can't recall them offhand. Fifteen hundred lightyears, maybe? It was fairly roomy even by galactic standards--and there are any number of star charts displayed onscreen in DS9 that show the Federation taking up a substantial chunk of the Alpha Quadrant.




Originally Posted by SuperPanda
(2.) Sounds like Brin's Uplift Triology.

You pegged it in one. :smallbiggrin:

The Uplift novels (at least the first trilogy) always seemed like the right tone for a galaxy brimming with civilizations at different, often ancient, stages of development. I don't necessarily agree with some of his assumptions or approaches--still a little too tame in terms of the lifeforms he designed--but I love that feeling of humans as wolflings, very naive and very fragile, with energy and boldness to take on the wider galaxy. That's what Star Trek should feel like.

So give Brin full credit for making the galaxy feel colossal and ancient beyond easy imagination, with interstellar agendas spanning hundreds of millions of years. Trek made a few feeble gestures along those lines (in particular the sixth-season TNG episode "The Chase") but for the most part the writers lacked the creativity and much clue about the actual galaxy to really pull it off.

[Chen]

Fifty lightyears is right next door. It's the corner bagel shop in galactic terms.

At one point in First Contact, Picard tells Lily the dimensions of Federation space, though I can't recall them offhand. Fifteen hundred lightyears, maybe? It was fairly roomy even by galactic standards--and there are any number of star charts displayed onscreen in DS9 that show the Federation taking up a substantial chunk of the Alpha Quadrant.

While small compared to the whole federation it's still a fairly solid distance. From memory Alpha, at warp 5 it takes ~3 months to travel 50 light years. From the same chart we have an example of travelling at warp 9.975 and it taking 5 days to travel 40 light years. That's an absurdly fast speed, so the distance for most ships is fairly significant. I seem to recall in TNG, Starfleet limited general starship travel to warp 5 unless it was an emergency.

[Cikomyr]

While small compared to the whole federation it's still a fairly solid distance. From memory Alpha, at warp 5 it takes ~3 months to travel 50 light years. From the same chart we have an example of travelling at warp 9.975 and it taking 5 days to travel 40 light years. That's an absurdly fast speed, so the distance for most ships is fairly significant. I seem to recall in TNG, Starfleet limited general starship travel to warp 5 unless it was an emergency.

*warp 5.

It was the Greenpeace episode

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Chen
I seem to recall in TNG, Starfleet limited general starship travel to warp 5 unless it was an emergency.

There was a later episode, maybe fifth or sixth season, in which warp drive was shown to have destabilizing effects on the spacetime continuum (or whatever), and as a result Starfleet restricted higher speeds to "true" emergencies.

So of course, that just added a touch more of dramatic tension when Picard ordered Warp 9 in most of the subsequent episodes.

: /



As for distances, here's the relevant exchange from First Contact, between Lily and Picard:


"How many planets are in this Federation?"

"Over one hundred and fifty, spread across eight thousand lightyears."

Also in First Contact, the Enterprise-E races back from the Neutral Zone to intercept the Borg at Earth, so the implication is that the Big E crosses several thousand lightyears in a matter of hours, or at the very most a couple of days.

Not saying that other movies and episodes don't give different speeds and scales--only that it might as well be the hyperspace run to Kessel for all the consistency we're likely to find.

.

[Traab]

Yeah, wasnt there an issue with them rupturing subspace or some other odd effect of traveling too fast too often through space? Like erosion issues, only IN SPAAAAAAAACE! :smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

It would be really neat if this series tried to get the realism back under control, while still pushing forward on sci-fi.
For example, pick a section of space we currently think is empty. Great, put the X homeworld there. Pick another section of space we think is empty. Vulcans. Etc, etc. Except, try and get all the scales about right, the distances and the time it takes to travel them, all that, and stay consistant with it.

@Subspace tearing
It comes up again in Voyager, with the Omega molecule. It basically destroys subspace when it explodes, rendering warp drive inoperable in that region of space. It stands to reason that folding space would put some kind of pressure on it, and we know black holes do distort space/time to quite a degree. Seems reasonable that warp drive would eventually ruin subspace.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Karoht
Except, try and get all the scales about right, the distances and the time it takes to travel them, all that, and stay consistant with it.

In order to be really consistent, any new series would probably have to throw out 98% of what's been presented in the various series and whatnot, and develop something entirely new. This would be close to a "reimagining," at least on the level of interstellar cartography.

And in general, I've come around to thinking that a general Trek reimagining wouldn't be a bad idea. In realistic terms, Michael Dorn probably won't be involved no matter what happens...so I guess the question is, if it's reimagined far enough to be scientifically accurate and internally consistent, is it still really an extension of the old Trek franchise? Or should it be something altogether different?

"Uplift Trek" doesn't have quite the same ring, but that sure is the direction I'd love to go.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Karoht
It comes up again in Voyager, with the Omega molecule. It basically destroys subspace when it explodes, rendering warp drive inoperable in that region of space.

There's also the subspace weapon used by the Son'a in Insurrection, which had been previously banned by the major Alpha Quadrant powers in the Khitomer Accords. (Whatever those are; I think they just used the name "Khitomer" because it was already familiar as a diplomatic site from Undiscovered Country.)

So I suppose they're all related, in some improbably technobabbly way....

:smallamused:

.

[TheThan]

I’m cool with inaccuracies (as long as they aren’t glaring inaccuracies), I just want consistently, if it takes 3 days to go from Earth to Vulcan at warp factor 5, I want it to always take 3 days to go from Earth to Vulcan at warp factor 5.

[Logic]

There was a later episode, maybe fifth or sixth season, in which warp drive was shown to have destabilizing effects on the spacetime continuum (or whatever), and as a result Starfleet restricted higher speeds to "true" emergencies.

So of course, that just added a touch more of dramatic tension when Picard ordered Warp 9 in most of the subsequent episodes.

: /



As for distances, here's the relevant exchange from First Contact, between Lily and Picard:


"How many planets are in this Federation?"

"Over one hundred and fifty, spread across eight thousand lightyears."

Also in First Contact, the Enterprise-E races back from the Neutral Zone to intercept the Borg at Earth, so the implication is that the Big E crosses several thousand lightyears in a matter of hours, or at the very most a couple of days.

Not saying that other movies and episodes don't give different speeds and scales--only that it might as well be the hyperspace run to Kessel for all the consistency we're likely to find.

.

Actually, Earth is kinda close to the Neutral Zone, because while it is technically in the Alpha Quadrant, the Sol System straddles the line that divides the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. The Klingons and Romulans have the majority of their territory in the Beta Quadrant, and some of it spills over into the Alpha Quadrant.

[Karoht]

Actually, Earth is kinda close to the Neutral Zone, because while it is technically in the Alpha Quadrant, the Sol System straddles the line that divides the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. The Klingons and Romulans have the majority of their territory in the Beta Quadrant, and some of it spills over into the Alpha Quadrant.Is there a map you can point us at which demonstrates this? Or is this text from a book/website type thing?
I'm actually very curious about the map. In Star Trek: Into Darkness, the Enterprise makes the run from near Kronos (the Klingon home world) to spitting distance of the Earth in under 3 minutes. I'm aware JJ Abrams messed up the scale considerably, but I've always been curious as to how bad.

[Cikomyr]

Is there a map you can point us at which demonstrates this? Or is this text from a book/website type thing?
I'm actually very curious about the map. In Star Trek: Into Darkness, the Enterprise makes the run from near Kronos (the Klingon home world) to spitting distance of the Earth in under 3 minutes. I'm aware JJ Abrams messed up the scale considerably, but I've always been curious as to how bad.

There is no canon maps.

And JJ Abrams... .... doesn't count. You can get hanged by the fanbase for bringing technical details from these movies into discussion. You may or may not like the movies, it's fine. But don't bring its technical details.

[Traab]

In the first contact episode, I would imagine they were going considerably faster than warp 5. I found a chart, no clue if its considered true or not, but the progression of warp speed is freaking huge. Warp 5 is 214 times the speed of light, warp 9 is 1516 times the speed of light. So if it would take 3 days at warp 5, it would take something like 10 and a half hours at warp 9. Warp 9.9 is twice as fast as that. So just over 5 hours travel time at max speed.

Speed Description
----- -----------
Standard orbit 9600 km/h (SUBLIGHT)
Full impulse 0.25c (SUBLIGHT)
Warp factor 1 1c
Warp factor 2 10c
Warp factor 3 39c
Warp factor 4 102c
Warp factor 5 214c
Warp factor 6 352c
Warp factor 7 656c
Warp factor 8 1024c
Warp factor 9 1516c
Warp factor 9.2 1649c
Warp factor 9.6 1909c
Warp factor 9.9 3052c
Warp factor 9.99 7902c
Warp factor 9.9999 199516c
Warp factor 10 infinite

[Kitten Champion]

As the Traveller teaches us, space and time are irrelevant, the true nature of the universe is thought. Given that it all makes perfect sense, that's just science.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
There [are] no canon maps.

Well, there's probably a case to be made that any map which showed up on a screen or display could be considered "canon," and I seem to recall a number of those from DS9 (or maybe just the same map reused?) which depicted the various powers overlaid on the galaxy as a whole. (I think there was a similar map in the creepy-neck-worm, "We seek peaceful coexistence" episode of TNG.)

There would probably be countless discrepancies if you tried to align all the different maps, since they were essentially flavor maps done by different art departments across a span of more than thirty years. My guess, which is completely a guess, would be that the maps shown in DS9 probably represent the best estimate of where everything is.

A slightly better approach might be to try correlating all the real-world astronomical names that were mentioned over the course of the franchise, as well as any distances in lightyears that were flung about. This has probably long since been done (hardcore Trek fans are very...focused sometimes) but also subject to the same discrepancies as the visual maps. --If not more, since the names were probably thrown into scripts for their cool factor, with absolutely no concept of the actual locations of these (heh) objects in space.

[Surrealistik]

As the Traveller teaches us, space and time are irrelevant, the true nature of the universe is thought. Given that it all makes perfect sense, that's just science.

The Traveller, and 1984's O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Brien_%28Nineteen_Eighty-Four%29). :smallamused:

[Cikomyr]

Well, there's probably a case to be made that any map which showed up on a screen or display could be considered "canon," and I seem to recall a number of those from DS9 (or maybe just the same map reused?) which depicted the various powers overlaid on the galaxy as a whole. (I think there was a similar map in the creepy-neck-worm, "We seek peaceful coexistence" episode of TNG.)

There would probably be countless discrepancies if you tried to align all the different maps, since they were essentially flavor maps done by different art departments across a span of more than thirty years. My guess, which is completely a guess, would be that the maps shown in DS9 probably represent the best estimate of where everything is.

A slightly better approach might be to try correlating all the real-world astronomical names that were mentioned over the course of the franchise, as well as any distances in lightyears that were flung about. This has probably long since been done (hardcore Trek fans are very...focused sometimes) but also subject to the same discrepancies as the visual maps. --If not more, since the names were probably thrown into scripts for their cool factor, with absolutely no concept of the actual locations of these (heh) objects in space.

The closest thing we have to a territorial map is the CArdi-Federation border during the Dominion War, as displayed in "Statistical Probability", or something like that.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060330163020/memoryalpha/en/images/3/3f/Cardassian-Federation_border.jpg

It's as generic as it comes. And 2d.

[Chen]

I had seen this map in some book at a bookstore. Don't know how cannon it is, but it matches a lot of the stuff on the show (and kinda matches ST:O video game map too).

http://www.chartgeek.com/star-trek-map/

[Karoht]

That's actually a pretty good map. 25th anniversary? Thats what, two years ago? Excellent find.
I recognize some of those locations from episodes of the show.

8000 cubic light years? Amaze-balls.

[Traab]

You want to know what the hard part is for me? Wrapping my head around the 3 dimensional shape of the various empires. I mean, its not like they are nice and neat cubes. Do the various empires also claim all space in between planets? Would the best way to determine an actual full shape be to create a 3d map then play connect the dots so every star and planet is connected to every other one by straight lines? Ugh, my head hurts just trying to picture how it could be done.

[Cikomyr]

The map is not valid.

A big point is made, in the episode "In The Pale Moonlight" how Cardassia shares a border with the Romulan Empire, how the dominion crossed Romulan territory to backstab the Federation, and how, in the end, the Romulans attacked a number of bases along their shared border.

[The Glyphstone]

You want to know what the hard part is for me? Wrapping my head around the 3 dimensional shape of the various empires. I mean, its not like they are nice and neat cubes. Do the various empires also claim all space in between planets? Would the best way to determine an actual full shape be to create a 3d map then play connect the dots so every star and planet is connected to every other one by straight lines? Ugh, my head hurts just trying to picture how it could be done.

Heh. Kinda reminds me of that exact moment in the Starfire sci-fi books, where travel was done by means of natural wormholes between star systems, and astrography was a fringe science for nerds and crackpots - till a huge alien invasion comes in on torch drives from unexplored space, the humans start studying how and why. There's a hilarious moment of epiphany for some of the main characters when an amateur scientist shows them a flat map of the 'portal network', then reconfigures it into 3-D space; the big star system/fleet base and a 'frontier' colony system that would take months to reach by portals (and is under siege/blockade) was only a light-year or two away through realspace.

[Kitten Champion]

You want to know what the hard part is for me? Wrapping my head around the 3 dimensional shape of the various empires. I mean, its not like they are nice and neat cubes. Do the various empires also claim all space in between planets? Would the best way to determine an actual full shape be to create a 3d map then play connect the dots so every star and planet is connected to every other one by straight lines? Ugh, my head hurts just trying to picture how it could be done.

The hard part for me is contemplating the Federation.

Okay, so the Romulans and Klingons have empires, presumably they've conquered everything on an omni-directional basis for as far as they're able.

The Federation is a union of like-minded planets, not necessarily following any ordered pattern in terms of dimension. Of sapient alien societies A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, there's a prospect only F will join, or none at all. I know I wouldn't join, humans are arrogant bastards who do nothing but speechify condescendingly and zoom away... but ignoring that the Federation has further requirements for membership than convenient positioning on a astrological map and doesn't conquer for its own security. Making territory which would function like a military geopolitical bloc ala NATO far, far, far more difficult to establish.

Unless they have a definitive "Federation Space" and can use it like we use national borders, chances are their military will have Swiss-Cheese-like holes in their jurisdiction for anyone to take advantage of...and yet, they don't... apparently.

I chalk this one up to the Federation tapping into the greatest source of power in the universe, positive thinking.

[Legato Endless]

The warp factors are official. Between the original series and the sequels the warp factors were turned into a curve from a geometric progression. Apparently warp speed also varies due to interstellar conditions, like gravity and gas density. So there's some handwaving for the variety of distance traveled.

I assumed security wise, Star Fleet adapted a rapid responce paradigm rather than border patrol for the lack of...geographic unity. That doesn't explain what happens when Romulan or Klingon territory goes to surround federation bubbles of planets though.

[TheThan]

Holding space like you would hold land is something I’ve always taken umbrage to.

See space is not like land, its empty, that’s why it’s called space. There’s nothing there of value. Land has value, so we try to control it, build cities, farms, make boarders, create mighty constructions and land works on it to “improve” upon it. Space has none of those qualities, there’s nothing there to improve upon.

Instead a political space map shouldn’t mark out territories in the traditional sense with lines and boarders, instead it should mark out who owns which planet (and other stellar bodies) various nations control, and due to the three dimensional aspect of space, a map should always be in 3D.

[Karoht]

2D is the easy abstraction, 3D is far more complicated.
Can you imagine border disputes being argued in 3D?

That said, I kind of like Traab's notion of a 3D 'connect the dots' kind of map. Like a 3D wireframe. It would probably be the most relevant abstraction, with different color lines between systems/worlds to indicate faction, trade agreements, or anything of the like. Safe travel corridors could also be abstracted over top, with a transparant (but also colored) tube to approximate patrolled areas.

If I was going to write a Sci-Fi interstellar fiction, right now, a map of the known universe connected in such a manner is probably where I would start.

[Legato Endless]

The fact that all interactions take place in the same narrow plain with universal agreed orientation doesn't help matters. I get that with sensors you can compensate somewhat, but the galactic disc is still pretty big, yet somehow a couple dozen ships can cordon off vast swaths of territory and prevent border crossings.

[Karoht]

The fact that all interactions take place in the same narrow plain with universal agreed orientation doesn't help matters. I get that with sensors you can compensate somewhat, but the galactic disc is still pretty big, yet somehow a couple dozen ships can cordon off vast swaths of territory and prevent border crossings.Made extra odd when Warp Speed interception is demonstrated to be quite tricky. Unless you're the Borg. Or [insert name of ship from second JJ Abrams film].

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
The closest thing we have to a territorial map is the CArdi-Federation border during the Dominion War, as displayed in "Statistical Probability", or something like that.

I could've sworn I recalled other maps from DS9, better and more comprehensive. And there were certainly maps shown throughout TNG's run. As I said, there are probably many different versions out there.


Originally Posted by Chen
I had seen this map in some book at a bookstore. Don't know how cannon it is, but it matches a lot of the stuff on the show (and kinda matches ST:O video game map too).

http://www.chartgeek.com/star-trek-map/

Beautifully designed, and they've made some attempt to put real stars at their currently estimated distances.

That said, and apart from the major continuity error Cikomyr mentioned, this is still on a completely different scale than what was given in First Contact. Picard didn't say 8000 cubic lightyears, he said eight thousand lightyears across. Immense difference.

Whether or not dialogue from First Contact is more valid than compiled references from TNG and DS9 is another question entirely.


Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
The Federation is a union of like-minded planets, not necessarily following any ordered pattern in terms of dimension.

Well, like-minded planets who have free access to the core worlds of the Federation, both spatially and politically. There are probably planets under Klingon and Cardassian occupation which wouldn't mind being part of the Federation, but aren't given the opportunity.

Really, if the alternatives are the other major powers in the Alpha Quadrant, it's hard to see why unaligned worlds wouldn't want to join the Federation. At least you don't have a phaser aimed at your family while you're applauding all the speechifying.


Originally Posted by TheThan
Instead a political space map shouldn’t mark out territories in the traditional sense with lines and boarders, instead it should mark out who owns which planet (and other stellar bodies) various nations control, and due to the three dimensional aspect of space, a map should always be in 3D.

All very true, and they did attempt to show 3D effects early in TNG's run, but I think the technical effort was a bit much for the late 80s and the scripts probably didn't call for it that often.

In the novelizations of the old animated series, Alan Dean Foster took some liberties and described a central facility for Starfleet Cartography which was the primary reference map for the Federation. It was a scale map of the galaxy using physical representations of each star, essentially tiny glowing grains of sand which were physically inserted into the map of the galaxy, all of which held aloft by a network of fine-tuned repulsors. A very cool concept for its time, but certainly a little dated these days.


Originally Posted by Karoht
Made extra odd when Warp Speed interception is demonstrated to be quite tricky.

One of countless aspects of future physics determined by the script of the week, rather than any real consistency.

:smallannoyed:

[Derthric]

I had seen this map in some book at a bookstore. Don't know how cannon it is, but it matches a lot of the stuff on the show (and kinda matches ST:O video game map too).

http://www.chartgeek.com/star-trek-map/

That's the basic structure of most maps I have seen, as you said even STO is loosely based on it. Though those maps don't set up things that are plot points of episodes, like a Romulan-Cardassian border. But I chock that up to writers not making continuity a priority.

I like this map myself.
http://tsdas.com/map/

And for speed and distance just remember what J. Michael Straczynski, "ships move at the speed of plot".

[Cikomyr]

That's the basic structure of most maps I have seen, as you said even STO is loosely based on it. Though those maps don't set up things that are plot points of episodes, like a Romulan-Cardassian border. But I chock that up to writers not making continuity a priority.

I like this map myself.
http://tsdas.com/map/

And for speed and distance just remember what J. Michael Straczynski, "ships move at the speed of plot".

I actually chock it up to the mapmakers just not having all the important plot points at the time of creation and wanting to include their own mini-canon as part of it..

[Traab]

Holding space like you would hold land is something I’ve always taken umbrage to.

See space is not like land, its empty, that’s why it’s called space. There’s nothing there of value. Land has value, so we try to control it, build cities, farms, make boarders, create mighty constructions and land works on it to “improve” upon it. Space has none of those qualities, there’s nothing there to improve upon.

Instead a political space map shouldn’t mark out territories in the traditional sense with lines and boarders, instead it should mark out who owns which planet (and other stellar bodies) various nations control, and due to the three dimensional aspect of space, a map should always be in 3D.

The space between DOES have value, because of security concerns. I want to know that if I am going from federation planet to federation planet, that I wont be slapped in the face by raiders, or a convoy of angry cardassian military units. Ignoring the space in between would be like turning a map of the US into one where only cities are highlighted and noone gives a crap about the roads in between.

[Iruka]

It is amusing to me that Worf would be the commanding officer here. It seemed that every time he held the commanding chair in Star Trek, he'd lose the ship to capture or destruction.


Sounds like a great concept. Instead making the series about a single ship like the previous, make it only about the commander and his crew. The ship gets destroyed or otherwise rendered unusable in a sufficiently heroic manner in every single episode.


These are the voyages of Commander Worf. Its five-year mission: to demolish strange new ships, to seek out new breakdowns and new ways to crash a ship, to boldly destroy what no man has destroyed before.

[Aotrs Commander]

The space between DOES have value, because of security concerns. I want to know that if I am going from federation planet to federation planet, that I wont be slapped in the face by raiders, or a convoy of angry cardassian military units. Ignoring the space in between would be like turning a map of the US into one where only cities are highlighted and noone gives a crap about the roads in between.

Space is so big, though, you simply wouldn't go sit in the space between solar system anymore than you randomly go off-road in a land-war - there's just no point. Even if you sat somewhere along the path of a well travelled route, it'd still be touch and go whether you'd intercept ANYTHING even coming down that route, let alone from any other direction. Far better to go sit at a node point (i.e. a star system - or the fringes, anyway) that people travel to, where you've got a better chance of interception. Easier to defend, come to that - especially is in 3D space you just CAN'T protect a volume like you can a land border - it's just too big.

(Star Trek's things like border outposts with scanner stations are pushing it...)

[Cikomyr]

Space is so big, though, you simply wouldn't go sit in the space between solar system anymore than you randomly go off-road in a land-war - there's just no point. Even if you sat somewhere along the path of a well travelled route, it'd still be touch and go whether you'd intercept ANYTHING even coming down that route, let alone from any other direction. Far better to go sit at a node point (i.e. a star system - or the fringes, anyway) that people travel to, where you've got a better chance of interception. Easier to defend, come to that - especially is in 3D space you just CAN'T protect a volume like you can a land border - it's just too big.

(Star Trek's things like border outposts with scanner stations are pushing it...)

I think that sort of the point.

If there's little reason to go "off route", then it's rather critical to spot those going off routes, because they are either in distress or up to no good.

Basically, space travel between planets would be continuously tracked by ground controls like airplanes.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think that sort of the point.

If there's little reason to go "off route", then it's rather critical to spot those going off routes, because they are either in distress or up to no good.

Basically, space travel between planets would be continuously tracked by ground controls like airplanes.

Spot, yes, absolutely.

Control? No. Just not practical - the volume is just too great to try and "control" territory like you would a land border.

[Cikomyr]

Spot, yes, absolutely.

Control? No. Just not practical - the volume is just too great to try and "control" territory like you would a land border.

Off course the border is not factual. But there can be layers upon layers of detection array along said border to track down any unwelcomed incursion. You need military bases meant to maintain and ressuply that network.

the line is imaginary and arbitrary. But even Starfleet cannot just leave it be, especially with enemies like the Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans.

[Chen]

The map is not valid.

A big point is made, in the episode "In The Pale Moonlight" how Cardassia shares a border with the Romulan Empire, how the dominion crossed Romulan territory to backstab the Federation, and how, in the end, the Romulans attacked a number of bases along their shared border.

I always wondered about that episode. I was fairly sure the Romulan empire was in the Beta Quadrant (with the Klingons) but Cardassia was in the middle-ish of the Alpha Quadrant. I couldn't really figure out how they shared a border.

I found: http://web.archive.org/web/20020307083849/http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/6952/ron67.txt

Which has an answer from Ron D. Moore which was basically: "we haven't talked about the Beta quadrant in ages and it would confuses people so we just say everything is happening in the Alpha quadrant" with respect to DS9 and the Klingons/Romulans (who are supposed to be in the Beta quadrant). Maybe this is why some of the writers just figured there had to be a shared border.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
Basically, space travel between planets would be continuously tracked by ground controls like airplanes.

This exactly, assuming your listening posts are powerful enough. Huge assumption, but it's been emphasized ever since TOS that Federation sensors are incredibly sensitive.

As for scrambling a fast response across lightyears, well, there should be deep-space patrols of some sort. In terms of active threats, most piracy wouldn't be in the deeps between stars; they'd go after the prey on the regular runs, which should be the shortest distance between two ports. Major military movements from hostile powers would be an entirely different concern, but it's harder to hide a fleet than a single corsair.

[TheThan]

There would probably be “space lanes”, which are the easiest and fastest routs between any two points. For example the safest and fastest route between Earth and Vulcan, and from Vulcan to Riza and from riza to Bajor for instance would be a space lane.

As others have said space is too huge to “control” with any sort of force. Instead of trying patrol deep space there will be system patrol craft (or planet side “listening stations) that monitor incoming/outgoing traffic into a system (planets being relatively closer together than stars).

If merchants and governments are afraid of their property being stolen by raiders, they’ll do the practical thing and send escort ships along with their mercantile ships. The USA did that in WWII to deter U-boat attacks, it was pretty successful (although not 100%). No raider is going to pick a fight with a proper warship unless they are just as heavily outfitted.

[Karoht]

This exactly, assuming your listening posts are powerful enough. Huge assumption, but it's been emphasized ever since TOS that Federation sensors are incredibly sensitive.
Long Range Sensors
Range: Plot
Speed: Plot
Degree of Sensitivity: Plot


As for scrambling a fast response across lightyears, well, there should be deep-space patrols of some sort. In terms of active threats, most piracy wouldn't be in the deeps between stars; they'd go after the prey on the regular runs, which should be the shortest distance between two ports. Major military movements from hostile powers would be an entirely different concern, but it's harder to hide a fleet than a single corsair.This is basically how the Maquis get away with it.
That, and the operate in Bajoran/Cardassian space from the looks of things. Though, in this particular case, they probably hid behind the Bajoran government looking the over way from time to time. And the Federation did defer to Bajoran juristiction on at least one account that I recall.

Personally, if I were a pirate in the TNG/DS9 universe, I would probably pick a few systems with individual habited worlds, non-affiliated with the Federation and no where near any of the other big players. Or, just close enough to the other big players that the Federation will stay out of it, and the big players will likely ignore it for a while as well.
Something like that.

[Logic]

There is no canon maps.

And JJ Abrams... .... doesn't count. You can get hanged by the fanbase for bringing technical details from these movies into discussion. You may or may not like the movies, it's fine. But don't bring its technical details.

The TNG technical manual (which has been defined as canon) describes the Sol system on the 6 o'clock spoke of the galaxy, if viewed from above. This line determines the Alpha and Beta Quadrant border. It also describes that the majority of Klingon and Romulan space is in the Beta Quadrant, though some of it spills over into the Alpha Quadrant. Some Federation territory spills over into the Beta Quadrant (as one would hope, with Earth crossing quadrants at least once a year.)

[Cikomyr]

The TNG technical manual (which has been defined as canon) describes the Sol system on the 6 o'clock spoke of the galaxy, if viewed from above. This line determines the Alpha and Beta Quadrant border. It also describes that the majority of Klingon and Romulan space is in the Beta Quadrant, though some of it spills over into the Alpha Quadrant. Some Federation territory spills over into the Beta Quadrant (as one would hope, with Earth crossing quadrants at least once a year.)

Rules of Canonicity of Star Trek:

Rule 1: Episodes and Movies are canon.


You want more rule? Well there ain't more rules. There is no degree of canonicity like in Star Wars. All the books, manuals, etc.. are all non-canon.

[Chen]

Rules of Canonicity of Star Trek:

Rule 1: Episodes and Movies are canon.


You want more rule? Well there ain't more rules. There is no degree of canonicity like in Star Wars. All the books, manuals, etc.. are all non-canon.

Looking it up it seems they removed all mention of "official" canon from any of their current stuff. The wiki page about it mentions they used to consider it just the series and films, then it got revised to not be as exclusive and then removed completely. It also kinda seems that Roddenbery himself was a bit of a revisionist and would de-canonize things he decided he didn't like anymore. I mean just saying that all the series are canon is a problem due to how much gets contradicted between them anyways.

[Fay Graydon]

I REALLY want this series idea to get some traction and get going, I think this would absolutely EPIC.
Also anyone been looking at the smaller "Star Trek: Renegades"?

[Cikomyr]

Looking it up it seems they removed all mention of "official" canon from any of their current stuff. The wiki page about it mentions they used to consider it just the series and films, then it got revised to not be as exclusive and then removed completely. It also kinda seems that Roddenbery himself was a bit of a revisionist and would de-canonize things he decided he didn't like anymore. I mean just saying that all the series are canon is a problem due to how much gets contradicted between them anyways.

Personally, I would just love to have Countdown be canon. If only because it totally makes the entire Star Trek XI better.

[Androgeus]

Rules of Canonicity of Star Trek:

Rule 1: Episodes and Movies are canon.


You want more rule? Well there ain't more rules. There is no degree of canonicity like in Star Wars. All the books, manuals, etc.. are all non-canon.

I prefer Doctor Who's Rules for canonicity:


See they're so much simpler.

[SlayerofNazguls]

Also, Bashir isn't south-american, he's Arab/Indian! I think..

You're right, also the actor actually changed his first name to a less Arab sounding one because he thought that he wouldn't be able to get work if people thought he was Muslim.(sadly, that is probably true because a lot of Americans think Muslims are all terrorists)

[Cikomyr]

You're right, also the actor actually changed his first name to a less Arab sounding one because he thought that he wouldn't be able to get work if people thought he was Muslim.(sadly, that is probably true because a lot of Americans think Muslims are all terrorists)

That was before 9/11, when arabs were just quirky oil salesmen.

[hamishspence]

I think True Lies was one of the earlier movies to take a different tack.

[russdm]

I thought I would post up my stuff for a possible New show. I have thought about it quite a bit, but kept hitting the wall that it wouldn't be any interesting or worth it. That it would work the best as fan fiction at most.

Anyway Here goes)

Star Trek: Klingon Empire

Follows the adventures/missions of Captain Korek and his crew aboard the IKS Victory, a bird of prey like Martak's ship. The bulk of show is set from a Klingon point of view, not a federation/human-sympathetic one.

Details on setup or historical details)

Its a good 50-75 years after nemesis, with some major changes to the galaxy and technology. First off, we have the great war between the Romulans and Federation (Essentially WW1) that lead to the Federation losing and being forced to give up owned space and members to the Romulans. The Federation, which has the Cardassians as members, decides to start grabbing new systems, so begins expanding rapidly before running into limits that are dangerous.

The Klingon Empire has also expanded its space and the two powers have a shared border. Due to needing new room and issues stemming from losing the Great War (Romulan-Federation War, the Federation lost and it lasted from 25 to 35 years; not quite sure yet on length but it was long and brutal and the Federation lost big time) the Federation began a policy of seizing space from others. The Cardassains don't complain because it benefits them, but the Klingons are protesting because the Federation is invading its space and worlds creating Disputed systems where the Klingons fight to drive out the Federation Invaders.

Technically, the Klingon Empire has solved certain problems and has given all of its cloaking ships the ability to fire proton torpedoes while cloaked and has had this breakthrough for nearly 25 years. Currently Klingon scientists are trying to solve the puzzle of firing disrupters through the cloak.

Other Government situations:

Ferengi are a part of Federation, where "conquered" so to speak.

The Romulans, who made moving the Neutral zone a requirement for allowing the Federation to surrender to them, are busy occupying their new holdings and getting them set up. Also, the Romulans believe that the Federation is plotting to retake lost Federation space and are taking steps to destabilize the Federation, by causing massive problems between the Federation and the Klingons.

Typhon Pact has the other powers in the alpha quadrant allied together and they are currently royally pissed since the Federation produced a deception that lead to a massively popular lightning campaign against them. The Pact has lost nearly 45% of its space to the Federation, and have been forced to accept this insult. Currently the Pact's leadership is trying to get the Romulans back, and if they can't they are pursuing alliances with the Klingons.

Pilot episode break-down:

A disputed system, Ki'jak to the Klingons and Tyber to the Federation, is the site of fighting between a Klingon task force (assigned to recover it) and a Federation force (assigned to establish a military foothold with ships and a starbase on the system's single partially habitable planet). Korek is a commander serving aboard General Mokar's flagship.

The fight occurs, the Federation ships are forced to flee and its a major Klingon Victory. Back on earth, the Two powers (Klingon Empire and Federation) argue at diplomatic tables regarding disputed systems; Federation wants them, while the Klingons insist the Federation leave or face consequences.

Korek is moved from Mokar's service to command the Victory, A b'rel class bird-of-prey who was originally captained by Kurn, son of Mogh and worf's brother. He meets his crew and receives his first assignment as captain, orders to deliver passengers and cargo to three locations (Two colonies, and an outpost) before starting a patrol along the Klingon-Romulan neutral zone. This neutral zone was re-mapped due to the Federation surrender to the romulans and their expansion.

While patrolling, Victory finds itself dealing with Ferengi raiders and pirates, while trying to show the flag. After several Romulan excersions, the Romulans send over a couple of warbirds to harass the outpost, commanded by General Volkor, and Victory plays a part in the defense.

In the closing act/details/credits, Qonos is bombed in a nuclear strike, destroying major cities, killing the current high council and nearly destroying the entire planet. Rajan, a Klingon diplomat who was on Ty Gokor when Qonos was bombed, is appointed new head of the Klingon Empire and information gathered about the attack suggests that is was carried out by the Federation, while at the same time, Starfleet conquers 3 systems in the Empire.

At this point, Ending credits roll.

Further episodes would deal with continue with: Fallout from changes in Klingon leadership, internal opposition to Federation's imperialist expansions, Romulan plots to cause wars, more missions for Victory and her crew.

Cast:

Korek- Captain of IKS Victory, Of the house of Orek and so to Morek.

Rajak-Commander and First officer of Victory, a friend of Korek's who went to academy together. Son of Dajak and mated with a child.

Kaja-Engineering Officer, Daughter of no house.

Rodak-Weapons officer, son to Mogh of house of Kurn, has served previously with Kaja aboard Victory.

Loren-Science Officer, former (Currently in disgrace) member of Klingon's Imperial Intelligence.

Durge-Helmsman, son of Kurge, bit of a lout but an extremely good pilot.

Jorak-Another officer, who does assigned tasks, presumed in command of deployable ground forces.

Other Klingons aboard Victory, as the ship has a 36 member crew.

Pilot cast additions:

General Mokar- leader of Klingon task force to take the Kijak system

General Volkor- commanding officer of outpost that Victory is assigned to

Passengers for delivery to Colonies and outpost, two groups of six with one assigned to each colony with 3 assigned to outpost, all carried aboard Victory

Sonek- Vulcan representative and member of a resistance to Federation's expansion

James Sisko-Member of Sonek's group, related to Benjamin Sisko

Aidan Dax- Current holder of Dax Symbiote, his predecessor was a xenoarchaeologist female who preceded by Ezri Dax. Works for Starfleet Intelligence.

Senator Thorne(s)garden- Leading proponent of Federation's imperialist leanings. Very anti-Klingon and declares how the Klingon Empire should submit to Federation Domination. Human, Might have an "s" in name after "Thorne" or maybe not. Slowly learned details for him is that he actually isn't human at all and is secretly an agent working for some other group

Klingon High council members

Rajan- the new head of the Klingon Empire

New Klingon High council members

Legate Karn Garak- cardassain legate and official representative to the federation council. Friends with Sonek. We learn that he is the current secret head of Section 31. is related to Elim Garak

Stephanie- Starfleet intelligence member of Section 31, friends with Aidan Dax and James Sisko. She has no stated last name, though like Aidan she is a commander

Kalak-Current head of Klingon military after the strike on Qonos

Koth- Klingon officer

Nerol- Romulan pro-consul, supports operations to create war

Jeral- Operative belonging to Tal Shiar, tasked with helping causing problems between powers

Keral- Romulan Praetor who is eager to finish things up and conquer the Federation, has decided to first push the Federation and Klingons into a war then mop up both governments when they have been weakened by fighting.

Romulan commanders and admirals who support the Praetor's military plans

Joran- a romulan and advisor to the praetor who is encouraging the Praetor's views. However, much is revealed that he, like Thorne(s)garden is serving someone else's interests.

Black Ship (unidentified vessel) crew- a black armored ship that shows up and attacks Victory, driving it off, it looks Vulcanish/Romulanish in design but is considerably stronger than ships from either species.

So, that's everything. Should I actually try to write up an actual script or more? I have most of the first season planned out in some way. Less so the other seasons and I don't know how many seasons to tell the story there would be. But it would be nice to hear what people think and if I should make this into a fan fiction instead of something for tv or something.

[JadedDM]

It seems rather unlikely that any new Star Trek would star anyone but the Federation (namely the humans), as they are the only race the audience can really identify with. I doubt the men in suits would ever go for that.

[russdm]

My other idea, tied to the first thing, was Star Trek Federation, which would tell the story of a female human gal raised by Klingons who gets assigned to oversee a space station on the new border of the neutral zone and would involve Klingons some. Gal named Red Baron, aka Sparky and she would have help from Tigan Dax, a Dax after Ezri. It has even less done about it then my first idea, but it would mainly deal with the Federation getting itself re-established in an area of space that it used to control that has been severely war-torn. Red's job would be to help fix stuff/problems with some exploration here and there.

It also feels like one that won't happen either. Frankly, I don't think Star Trek fits anymore into our pop culture or anywhere in our culture. A show like Deep Space Nine would work better then anything because it was nearly always about the characters and their stories rather than TNG's preachiness per episode. TNG lost that aspect after the Great Bird of the Galaxy died and TNG ended up getting a lot better. I still don't care much for Voyager, but Enterprise showed interesting potential if they had dropped the dumb timeline altering plotline and the weird undesirable Tucker-T'Pol stupid romance subplots.

What could have been with Enterprise: Show how the Federation was established, include the earth-romulan war, and show the difficulties of the Federation's early years. That all ended up in novels instead. It should have been the main plotline, rather than a bizarre future people interfering with the timeline bit.

[TheThan]

You don’t have to link characters to other well established trek shows.

That being said, other decent ideas could be a show based on the Enterprise B or C. those are two parts of the trek timeline that hasn’t been explored in any sense of detail. We get the enterprise B in Star Trek Generations, and the Enterprise C in a two part episode of next gen.

The cool thing about the enterprise C, is that the end of the show could lead up to its destruction (and the creation of the Klingon/ federation alliance). The last episode could easily be a redo of “yesterday’s enterprise” taken from the perspective of the enterprise C crew. While the ship is lost with all hands, they are proclaimed heroes and the enterprise D is commissioned.

[russdm]

Most of the Enterprise B and Enterprise C eras have already been covered by TrekVerse novels. From what the shows have already told us, there wasn't anything really happening or nothing that would really be that interesting. The Klingon-Federation alliance, sure, but that happens pretty quickly leaving very little more to cover. The whole Federation-Klingon Alliance could be solved or fully depicted in a single season, rather filling a full series.

You would have to add material in order to make the premise work as a series, such as the Federation's conflict with the Cardies or the Tzenkethi business that Sisko was involved with. Also, based on what the shows detail already, there wasn't much exploring apparently done since Enterprise D is apparently mainly tasked with exploration duties.

The other major issue is how you portray the point of the series. TNG was really preachy about the Federation's superiority to everything around it and that there were no issues within it. DS9 changed up some things to show that the Federation could and did make mistakes with severe consequences. The major issue here though is that the stories that would get told really don't fit into our collective conscience as much anymore so it would be really hard to keep the series relevant, and then add in the tired feeling the last bit of Trek before the JJ Abrams movies; it gives the feel that the general public or the smaller segments of sci-fi fans are not really interested or that desired to making more Trek series.

The new series is intended to feed off the JJ Abrams movies hype. This won't be strong enough to carry it through, so it will have to carry itself. There isn't much sign of this being really possible though so I don't think it would really work out well.

[TheThan]

You have to consider that most people who will watch that show aren’t familiar with the books. Therefore it’s pretty much open season on what can be done during those time lines. A few minutes of research from memory alpha tells me that the enterprise B was in service for 36 years, while the enterprise C was in service for 12, surely something interesting must have happened during that 50ish year stretch.

Besides, much of the TNG was the enterprise flying around the galaxy keeping the locals quite anyway. It wasn’t until DS9 that we got any consistent conflict going.

edit:
as for a show based in the Abrams verse. I think it would have to be based on Kirk and company on the enterprise for it to work at all.

[russdm]

Yeah, but that would require the actors to committing to a TV series, and nearly all of them are movie stars or have other commitments. I don't think its really possible for the studio to use anybody other than actors from the movies.

As for Enterprise B and Enterprise C, We already how the outcome turned out because of TNG. Short of them covering the Federation-Klingon, there is almost nothing they can do unless they make it a "Monster of the Week" format for those problems. If they make up new ones or new conflicts, they have to resolve them or explain why those problems don't show up in TNG. Its the same issue as with the Star Wars Prequels, because of the Originals, there is really only way for the prequels to have turned out; with the empire in charge.

Star Trek with Worf I would watch because it would be interesting and new; stories with Enterprise B/C wouldn't be really interesting unless it was the Federation-Klingon alliance. I don't find myself really all that interested in a new 5 years exploration with this new enterprise crew, it just doesn't have the oomph without the full crew and each actor needs to be available fully. I don't think that's going to happen.