Spellsword character optimization

[shinyuX]

Hi guys !

I've been playing a Dragon Shaman for a long time now, and even though this class can easily multitask (and is fun to play), I want to try another style. And this style is the one of a badass magic user delivering spells trough his sword/axe/whatever.

I've been looking at a lot of guides but nothing really convinced me. Here's the deal :

-> Start lvl5 (so I won't be spellsword right away but at next level)
-> One level fighter : mandatory. Feats, HP, most of spellsword requirements.

For the 4 other level, since I have to go on the magic side, I'm hesitating between Sorcerer (no preparation, great spells) and Duskblade (fewer spells but able to resist in melee fights). And I can't take the decision :P

I fear that Sorcerer is too weak and that Duskblade doesn't have enough magical ability (considering that the Spellsword class has a caster level progression of only 1/2).

Any thoughts/opinion ?

Have a great day,
shinyuX.

[Rebel7284]

The best way to play the spellsword is to only take the first level.

The second best way to play the spellsword is to only take 3 levels.

any more levels and the class is crap. Check out Abjurant Champion.

A very solid gish build is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/X8 where X usually involves Sacred Exorcist.

[HammeredWharf]

Duskblade / Spellsword is a pointless combination. Duskblade can already channel spells and use medium armor.

Are you really set on Spellsword? It's a pretty bad class. Ordained Champion and the above-mentioned sorcadin build are better. Ordained Champion can even channel spells, but it's based on divine casting.

[Darkweave31]

Simple answer is probably duskblade, it's pretty much designed for the concept you want. Sounds like something you'd have quite a bit of fun with. Starts strong and keeps going. Tag on Abjurant Champion as a prestige class, the arcane strike feat, and you'll be golden.

If you really want to go for an optimized gish (fighter/mage) character, well then there are much better ways than spellsword. It's good (sometimes) for a 1 level dip, but the loss of caster levels isn't really worth the benefits it gives. A few other options for your consideration:
-Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage will give you powerful magic with cool swordmagic-y stuff from Tome of Battle
-Abjurant Champion is an good PrC to tag onto any gish build
-Wizard or Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade for a gish dedicated to speed
-Phantom Knight is mentioned because I think it's cool and certainly isn't terrible for a mounted gish.
-Arcane Strike feat mentioned for feel, allows you to expend a spell to boost attack and damage of your melee with arcane energy

[shinyuX]

Actually, I don't need to be spellsword, but I really want a gameplay (the background is ready) where I can channel spells in my sword. That is the only "must have" I set for myself, now I just can't decide what class combination I should choose.

[amalcon]

Don't worry about the survivability from the Sorcerer. Just cast Alter Self or Mirror Image with that one second-level spell you'll know at level 5, and suddenly you're more survivable than a same-level Fighter would be. The important thing to remember about this entry is that you don't actually get to take a Spellsword level until level 8 (unless you take a second Fighter level, then it's 6), because of the BAB requirement. That means no Channel Spell (the ability you're specifically trying to get) until level 12, so make sure that the campaign will go that long before basing a character on it.

The Duskblade has advantages too, but not for the reason you state: see that third level Arcane Channeling ability? That's a similar (but overall much stronger) version of the Spellsword's Channel Spell ability. The interesting thing is that you can use both at the same time, to channel two (e.g.) Shocking Grasps on the same attack.

Basically it's a choice between more powerful spells and the ability to unload them more quickly. The heavy CO types will tell you to take the more powerful spells, and that will likely be stronger, but you may have more fun casting multiple spells in a turn.

Another thing you might want to consider is just playing a Duskblade. They totally fulfill the "badass magic user delivering spells through his sword/axe/whatever" image natively, and it is much less complicated to build and play than a Spellsword.

[Darkweave31]

Actually, I don't need to be spellsword, but I really want a gameplay (the background is ready) where I can channel spells in my sword. That is the only "must have" I set for myself, now I just can't decide what class combination I should choose.

In that case I'm going to recommend Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 with the Arcane Strike feat. It'll allow you to channel arcane energy through your sword, give you the sword magic of warblade and jade phoenix mage, and keep your spellcasting very strong.

For a less powerful, but still fun option I'd recommend Duskblade mixed with Abjurant Champion and arcane strike.

[shinyuX]

It's true that the channel is only at SS4 .. kinda far from me now.

I like the idea of just Dusk, but won't it severely lack spells ? Duskblade's spell list is far from beeing the most interesting one. If I were to multiclass the Duskblade, what class would you pick ? Or would you go for the Abjurant Champ prestige class ?

EDIT

Thx for the answer I'll look at these !

[HammeredWharf]

Well, there are four decent spell-channeling options:

1) Duskblade 3.

Pros:
A standard action to cast and strike.
Works with all spells you know, not just Duskblade spells.

Cons:
Duskblade isn't a very powerful class and this is a three levels dip at least.

2) Ordained Champion

Pros:
This class is badass. Bonus feats, War domain spells as swift actions, Wisdom modifier for everything, bonus damage and easy pre-reqs? Yes, please.
Also, the abilities have cool names.

Cons:
Loses two caster levels.
Slow. Requires a move action to store a spell.

3) Spell-storing enchantment

Pros:
Cheap.
Can be combines with the other ways.

Cons:
Not enough by itself, unless you have a lot of weapons.
Slow. Requires a standard action to store. You won't be using this in combat.

4) Arcane Strike feat

Pros:
A decent increase in damage, especially if you've got lots of attacks.
Can be combined with the other ways.

Cons:
Burns through spells rather quickly.
Isn't really channeling. It's just bonus damage.

[Xerlith]

5) Backport Pathfinder Magus. Really, it's a great option. Magus 20 is a completely viable spellsword build.

Or you may want to dip Warblade and enter Jade Phoenix Mage. There you go.

If you don't want to use PF material...

Duskblade3/Paladin2/Warblade1/Suel Arcanamach4/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1 is a nice build. Really nice. If not bent on being LG, Hexblade2 works as well.

More Initiator stuff?

Duskblade3/Paladin2/Warblade1/Suel4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10.

Arcane Wrath is a badass way to channel your spells, by the way.

More spellcasting?

Duskblade3/Wizard4/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight8 ends up with 8th level spells, one level short of 9s.

Also, Duskblade3/Wizard2/Crusader1/Abjurant Champion1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/AbjChamp+3 has some flair to it.

All simple builds.

Ah, there's also Desert Wind focused Swordsage20. :smallbiggrin:

[Rebel7284]

You don't need any special classes to channel spells through your sword.

Smiting Spell Metamagic + Spell Storing Weapon + Bloodstone = 3 spells, one of which has to be [Empowered] vampiric touch. Sure it takes prep, but it's a nice way to abuse action economy. =)

[Nihilarian]

I like Duskblade/Chameleon (lots of spells to channel, divine and arcane, any lists, up to 6th level) and Duskblade/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

[Windstorm]

Don't worry about the survivability from the Sorcerer. Just cast Alter Self or Mirror Image with that one second-level spell you'll know at level 5, and suddenly you're more survivable than a same-level Fighter would be.

Just want to point out that all alter self really does post-errata is replace your physical scores, and you don't get extra HP from increased con in this manner.

Polymorph at least gives you the new type but otherwise has similar restrictions. :smallwink:

[DarkSonic1337]

Just want to point out that all alter self really does post-errata is replace your physical scores, and you don't get extra HP from increased con in this manner.

Polymorph at least gives you the new type but otherwise has similar restrictions. :smallwink:


You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

Don't have the errata right in front of me, but the SRD is pretty good about keeping up with errata.


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. "

The important things for survivability are flight (can't hit what you can't catch) and natural armor.

[Windstorm]

Don't have the errata right in front of me, but the SRD is pretty good about keeping up with errata.

The important things for survivability are flight (can't hit what you can't catch) and natural armor.

part of the problem with the statement is that while polymorph gives you several forms with flight, natural armor, etc; Alter Self only allows you to use forms with the same type as yourself, and without base race shenanigans most humanoid type forms (especially 5HD or less) don't have a huge amount going for them. Monstrous Humanoids (the ones that DO get nice things) generally aren't used as a base race because of level adjustments or racial HD.

it should also be noted there is some discussion about the wording of errata'd poly subschool spells with regards to both templates (vampire is permissible and used as an example when it is a templated creature) and feats gained from monstrous forms that don't have direct effects upon your attacks (since feats are labeled extraordinary in a couple places)

its far more balanced than it used to be, but still a headache for the DM every time. :smallfrown:

[Karnith]

it should also be noted there is some discussion about the wording of errata'd poly subschool spells with regards to both templates (vampire is permissible and used as an example when it is a templated creature)
There really shouldn't be a discussion about assuming templated forms when using Alter Self (and it's derivatives), given that the spell explicitly forbids assuming templated forms. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.(Emphasis mine)

Or were you talking about other Polymorph subschool spells (i.e. those not based on Alter Self)?

[Windstorm]

There really shouldn't be a discussion about assuming templated forms when using Alter Self (and it's derivatives), given that the spell explicitly forbids assuming templated forms. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):
(Emphasis mine)

Or were you talking about other Polymorph subschool spells (i.e. those not based on Alter Self)?

actually alter self and co, the discussion arises from wizards themselves using a vampire as a polymorph example, even when the rules as written explicitly prohibit you doing precisely that. its wotc, what can I say?

whenever I DM I just use it as printed (no templates), but some have made arguments that creatures that are fundamentally templated other creatures (skeleton, zombie, vampire) should be handled differently than more abstract templates.

[Karnith]

actually alter self and co, the discussion arises from wizards themselves using a vampire as a polymorph example, even when the rules as written explicitly prohibit you doing precisely that. its wotc, what can I say?
So where is a Vampire given as a valid example of a Polymorph form? Given that creatures cannot generally assume an Undead form using Polymorph, and that Undead creatures cannot benefit from the Polymorph spell, it would be very odd for WotC to use that as an example.
Yes, I know, there are weird corner cases
Not that I would be terribly surprised if WotC used it as an example, anyway.

[docnessuno]

1) Duskblade 3.

...

Cons:
Duskblade isn't a very powerful class

What?
Duskblade is one of the more solid Tier 3 classes, and i'ts the first fully working "all-in-one" gish in 3.5. When you can take a class 1-20 without loosing effectiveness it's a sign of good game design imho.

Build:
Duskblade 1-11, then either Abjurant champion +5 / Duskblade +4 or just Duskblade +9.

[Nightraiderx]

This is a trick that you can use if you want more spells known for your duskblade.

1. Step one Magical Training (Wizard) Feat.
2. Step two Arcane preparation feat.
3. ????
4. Profit!

You have to spend for the spells, but that seems to be a good balancing factor.
You have a book that is exclusively yours, just have to write spells in it and they are known to you. Use some slots for the prepared spells and the rest for spontaneous duskblady stuff.

[Eldaran]

I like the idea of just Dusk, but won't it severely lack spells ? Duskblade's spell list is far from beeing the most interesting one.

Be sure that you're looking at the list on page 24, not the one on page 98. It's far from the best list, but it's pretty decent for what they do.

[Krazzman]

Be sure that you're looking at the list on page 24, not the one on page 98. It's far from the best list, but it's pretty decent for what they do.

I would also advise you to go straight Duskblade.

I tried it out in some low-op games and I really dished out respectable damage while still having options for when I have to do something else.

One game I had abyssmal scores compared to the party. I had around Elite Array while the rest had at least 1 or 2 18's and most of them had 14 as their lowest stat. I managed to survive 90% of the plot solely through my spells and other stuff.
My wife went in as a Dread Necromancer and came again as a Elven barbarian after the Necro "died". The other guy came with a Halfling Wizard (enchanter), then came back with a Favoured Soul after his Cleric/FavSoul died in a Kobold attack.
Finally the duskblade died because I fell down a pit after saving the barbarian from falling herself.

Blood Coated Blade + Shocking Grasp + Greatsword meant: 2 hitting a Troll into K.O. then burning handing him to death.

I believe at around level 3 your fun begins really and from then on you just get more and more spells.

[shinyuX]

Hi guys

Thanks for all the answer ! I will go DuskBlade/Abjurant Champ with Arcane Strike, and maybe with a level of Samurai (because background).

[docnessuno]

Nothing beats the face of your low-mid op GM the first time you pull out a quickened true strike + full power attack and channeled shocking grasp.
At level 5, assuming 18 Str, +2 from knowledge devotion and a +1 greatsword, that's +27 to hit (+31 vs metallic armor) for 2d6+19+5d6 damage (average 43.5).

About the limited spell list, there are several options to expand it, the best ones imho being:
The "extra spell" feat, depending on your DM's interpretation.
Spell research, to add other thematic-fitting spells to your spell list (IE: shield if you are going to pick abjurant champion later, wraithstrike, some good touch spells).

[Terazul]

Hi guys

Thanks for all the answer ! I will go DuskBlade/Abjurant Champ with Arcane Strike, and maybe with a level of Samurai (because background).

Gonna chime in here to say... I highly advise not taking a level of Samurai.

Whether it's Complete Warrior (Whoo, a single weapon proficiency that lets you use a weapon you could already use 2-Handed [Which is better] 1-Handed), or Oriental Adventures (Oh Hey Ancestral Daisho! If only there weren't a feat that already does this in every wa-Woops, Ancestral Relic exists) version, there is nothing you gain from that class makes up for a lost level of spellcasting and actual class features. I mean, you can say "for background", but there is absolutely nothing stopping you from being a Duskblade who happens to be a Lawful fellow who happens to use a bastard sword for some reason and possibly serves a lord of some kind. Because that's all they really are as far as inherent flavor goes. If you really want to, go ahead by all means, your character! Just, y'don't have to, if that's all you were going for.

Also, if you feel the spell list is too limited, see if your DM will let you add these spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239128) someone cooked up on the homebrew board awhile back specifically for Duskblades.

[Nihilarian]

Gonna chime in here to say... I highly advise not taking a level of Samurai.

Whether it's Complete Warrior (Whoo, a single weapon proficiency that lets you use a weapon you could already use 2-Handed [Which is better] 1-Handed), or Oriental Adventures (Oh Hey Ancestral Daisho! If only there weren't a feat that already does this in every wa-Woops, Ancestral Relic exists) version, there is nothing you gain from that class makes up for a lost level of spellcasting and actual class features. I mean, you can say "for background", but there is absolutely nothing stopping you from being a Duskblade who happens to be a Lawful fellow who happens to use a bastard sword for some reason and possibly serves a lord of some kind. Because that's all they really are as far as inherent flavor goes. If you really want to, go ahead by all means, your character! Just, y'don't have to, if that's all you were going for.

Also, if you feel the spell list is too limited, see if your DM will let you add these spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239128) someone cooked up on the homebrew board awhile back specifically for Duskblades.OA grants you Iaijutsu Focus, which is a fairly solid damage bonus.

[Rebel7284]

What?
Duskblade is one of the more solid Tier 3 classes, and i'ts the first fully working "all-in-one" gish in 3.5. When you can take a class 1-20 without loosing effectiveness it's a sign of good game design imho.

Build:
Duskblade 1-11, then either Abjurant champion +5 / Duskblade +4 or just Duskblade +9.

Sorcerer, even when losing 2 caster levels for Paladin, is still tier 2. High in tier 2 due to access to the BEST spell list. However, looks like the OP is fine with the Duskblade.

Note that full attack channel comes at level 13, not 11, so that's the usual break point.

[Darkweave31]

Hi guys

Thanks for all the answer ! I will go DuskBlade/Abjurant Champ with Arcane Strike, and maybe with a level of Samurai (because background).

While I'm not going to outright say don't take samurai for background reasons... consider this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) first.

[Terazul]

OA grants you Iaijutsu Focus, which is a fairly solid damage bonus.
When drawing your weapon. Against a single flat-footed opponent. For a couple d6. By itself, it really isn't that stellar. If you can:
1. find a way to keep drawing/sheathing weapons (because sheathing isn't a free action)
2. Have multiple attacks in between said sheathing
3. Consistently make your opponent flat-footed
4. Spend resources pumping it to a decent level (as a cross-class skill, it'll have the Level+3 max ranks, but still costs 2 skill points to raise)
or 5. Take Iaijutsu Master 5, and add Cha to every die of damage

...Then it becomes halfway fairly decent. Like say, on a Factotum with a gnomish quickrazor and multiple actions or something who gets every skill for free, then yeah, it becomes pretty decent and comparable to Sneak Attack. But going out of your way to lose a spellcasting level to pick up a Cha-based skill for a couple d6 of damage? If you really want the skill there are several feats that can get it on your list. But even then as an Int-based Duskblade with a ton of Knowledge Skills you'd still probably be better off picking up Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories. With a minimal bit of investment you've got at least a +1 Hit/Damage vs everything, which can be traded towards Power Attacks with your Arcane Strike.

I mean, if you really wanna go for the "I draw my sword and use Arcane Channeling/Arcane Strike/Iaijutsu Focus for one big hit" thing that's kinda cool and all, but there's way better ways of going about that than a level of Samurai (or anything else that delays getting to Full Attack Channels and higher-level spells, really).

[docnessuno]

as an Int-based Duskblade with a ton of Knowledge Skills you'd still probably be better off picking up Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories.

Note that, by RAW, collector of stories doesn't work with the checks from knowledge devotion (but the vast majority of DMs i played with let it fly).
Another option to boost Knowledge devotion are the scrolls of uncertain provenience, from MiC.