LA buyoff: The Big Deal

[.Zero]

Hello everyone!

I was talking with a friend of mine about various aspects of 3.5.

Before we begin you need to know that i'm basically a noob with no gaming experience but i know a lot from the internets, while he's a veteran player and a DM.

Everything started up when i talked to him about LA buyoff and Unearthed Arcana. I really love that book, while he's hating it, because he found it very unbalancing.*
My thesis is that races with level adjustment are not balanced and a metagame concept like LA buyoff helps A LOT playing with those races, especially if you're playing a caster.
He's instead on the opposite line, arguing that LA is necessary to keep LA +0 races on par with those with major LA.

So I gave him some examples, trying to convince him that (aside from some wierd templates) attribute boni or penalties won't affect your character raw power or raw weakness.
We all know that a single +2 on a relevant casting attribute means a bonus spell and a +1 on spells DC, but when we're comparing Int scores of 34 on one side and 36 on the other side i think the differences are at minimum level.
I really, really believe that a character power, soul, abilities and tactics all come from classes and feats combinations.

Then i gave him a situation like this:

ECL 20
Human WizardX/IncantatrixY/DweomerkeeperZ
Int 34

ECL 20 (with buyoff)
Drow WizardX/IncantatrixY/DweomerkeeperZ
Int 36

All i wanted to say is that those two characters (i don't even know if a character can go Incantatrix AND Dweomerkeeper lol. It's just an example) are insanely powerful and both of 'em are equally capable of destroying everything and breaking the campaign, making the race you chose completely irrelevant.
Without the buyoff the drow wouldn't had the bonus spell nor the +1 on spells DC, and with only 18HD he would be more vulnerable to caster level-dependent effects and HD-dependent effects.
And then i continued with this:
Barbarian 20 with Power Attack and Leap Attack, which obliterates everything in his path regardless of him being a human, a warforged, a drow or a kalashtar, starting from level 6.

He then started to say that i'm not considering actual character progression and that i'm bringing only examples with broken things like Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Leap Attack, that no sane DM will ever approve on the table and other annoying stuff like these.

I'm now asking the playgroung: is my thesis totally incorrect?

I'm not posting here becouse i want you to yell YOU'RE RIGHT!!! I really want to know instead IF i'm wrong, and WHY you think i'm wrong. I'd like to see some real game experiences about this whole thing.

Thank you!

*This is not a thread about 3.5 system being balanced or not. We all know it's not balanced at all. We're talking about races, stat boni and LA buyoff. Keep your posts within the parameters of the request please ;)

My english sucks, i know.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The answer is the same for nearly everything concerning 3.5 balance: it depends.
Races and templates are not equal even with the same LA. Some are barely worth it even with buyoff, some are worth being a level behind.
It depends on the build. In general non-casters deal better with LA than casters.
It depends on your tables optimization level (and cheese tolerance).
It also depends if your DM assigns XP by the book (where you level faster when you're behind, making LA with buyoff cost you effectively nothing in the mid- to long run).

On one hand some races with LA (like drow) could actually see play if LA buyoff was allowed. On the other hand it is far more likely that the players will take the most powerful base race they can find for their build and tack on the strongest LA +1 and +2 templates they can get away with since those can be bought off reasonably early.

Your DM obviously has a powerlevel he's comfortable with. Making LA buyoff available will probably raise that level (at little fluff benefit) so he is right to disallow it.
If you want something with LA for fluff reasons and feel it's too weak to keep up otherwise you're better of asking the DM for an exception instead of a blanket yes on LA buyoff.

[.Zero]

Your DM obviously has a powerlevel he's comfortable with. Making LA buyoff available will probably raise that level (at little fluff benefit) so he is right to disallow it.


You got it. I know how he plays, and i know he doesn't like heavy optimization, but this is not the actual problem.
I'm not annoying him with my Venerable Phrenic Synad Spell-to-Power Erudite, we're not talking of such things, but he's stubbornly reluctant even with little business like Half Giant Psychic Warriors, or Goliath trippers, Drow Wizards and the like.
I never meant to start arguing with him because u wanted to get the best out of a cheesy combination of LA races and templates and the use the buyoff, for I fiercely believe that the strongest races are thise with LA+0 like Humans, Strongheart Halflings, Illumians, Whisper Gnomes, Warforged and Water Orcs!

This Venerable Phrenic Synad StP Erudite is broken on first because it's a StP Erudite, then it becomes MORE broken because of the Phrenic Creature template, then it becomes MORE broken when you make it venerable. It is not broken because it is a Synad! It would be broken even if it was a Human or a Catfolk!

That's my point. It's a matter of little fluff benefits. And you're right telling me not pretending a blanket yes on LA, but I'm not so cheesy i deserve a blanket no.

Now, which races (just keep templates out of the way by now) with LA+1, +2, +3 would be broken if LA buyoff is allowed in a campaign?


It also depends if your DM assigns XP by the book (where you level faster when you're behind, making LA with buyoff cost you effectively nothing in the mid- to long run).

I don't get this. My party is at ECL 2, and I'm a drow with LA+2 and two levels is Warrior, shouldn't i gain less exp than them for I'm ECL 4?

[docnessuno]

Some races / templates are utterly broken, moreso if LA buyoff is available.
Some are good, and become better with LA buyoff.
Some are bad, and LA buyoff makes them barely playable.
Some are utterly horrible, and not even LA buyoff can save them.

One thing to understand is that the vast majority of LA races are meant for noncasters and their power level should be judged against a similar build with a core race. Comparing a Feral, Lolth touched, half-minotuaur, mineral warrior fighter 16 to an human wizard 20 is like comparing apples to oranges, it should instead be compared to an human figher 20.

As for examples:
Broken: Lolth-touched, Black ethergaunt, Half minotaur
VERY good: Mineral warrior, Marrowlurk, Saint
Good: Goliath, PoisonDusk lizardfolk, Petal

[morkendi]

I think la are powerful at low levels, but once you get to higher level, they dont make as much of a difference. Plus the guy with no la will level faster gaining access to higher level spells and such before the guy with the buy off.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't get this. My party is at ECL 2, and I'm a drow with LA+2 and two levels is Warrior, shouldn't i gain less exp than them for I'm ECL 4?

That's not how LA works. If your party is ECL 3 you only get one class level as a LA +2 race. Technically you can't even play a drow in a game under ECL 3.

Buyoff getting you more XP works like this:
Your party is ECL 3. 3 of them are LA +0 races, you are a LA +1 race.
When you level up you can buy off your LA. You are still ECL 3 while your party is ECL 4, so you get more XP since you are lower level than the rest of the party.

If you are consistently a level lower than the rest of your party you get something like 75k XP more over 20 levels (see Experience is a River (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1077406)).
More important in the short run is the fact that you catch up after a few battles, leaving you with the same HD as the rest of your party despite having a more powerful race.

Everything with LA greater than 3 on the other hand can't be fully bought off before epic levels anyway, leaving it more or less unplayable.

There are of course outliers. The human bonus feat alone for example is often worth more than what most LA +1 races offer.
The drow racial abilities on the other hand are barely worth taking even for LA +1, nevermind LA +2. While they get a lot of racial benefits none of them are really outstanding and don't make up for the constitution loss imo.

As for what's broken with buyoff, ask your DM. I generally play a little on the higher side of optimization but so do the DM and the other players, so it balances out.
In a lower powered game you can just take the LA and let it balance out the optimization advantage you have over the rest of the party.

If you can't agree on a compromise you could always play a lesser drow (PGtF) or just reflavor one of the ECL 1 elves to have black skin.

[Adverb]

I think that making any argument which revolves around the extreme end of the spectrum is a bad idea. An ECL 20 Incantatrix should probably not be your go-to.

LA buyoff would be a simpler argument if the cost/benefit ratio of races and templates were more consistent. As it is, I think docnessuno pretty well encapsulated things.

[.Zero]

Originally Posted by docnessuno
As for examples:
Broken: Lolth-touched, Black ethergaunt, Half minotaur
VERY good: Mineral warrior, Marrowlurk, Saint
Good: Goliath, PoisonDusk lizardfolk, Petal

Those are templates and I wrote


Originally Posted by .Zero
(just keep templates out of the way by now)

And then


Originally Posted by Fiend Folio, p68
Because of its many special abilities, an ethergaunt PC’s
effective character level (ECL) is equal to its class level + 12
(red), + 16 (white), or + 20 (black). Such characters would
be considered traitors to their race, especially if they associated
with Material Plane creatures.

and


Originally Posted by Monster Manual III, p120
Petal
Advancement: 2-3 HD (tiny)
Level Adjustment: +2 (cohort)

So how could you play with those? Just think about resonable races that would actually see play in a "normal" game.

All I was wondering was an unbeatable argument with wich I could conveince my friend that a character becomes broken with just feats/class features combinations, not becouse he's a human or a shifter.
Can you help me? Is my argument totally wrong?


Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx
you could always play a lesser drow (PGtF) or just reflavor one of the ECL 1 elves to have black skin.

Well... uhm... This is a compromise, actually! A lesser Drow in not a Drow! Lol, my friend even told me


Originally Posted by My Friend
Ok, i give you no LA, no stat boni, no spell like ability, but i give you a Drow-like background, NPC will refer to you as a Drow, and i give you a bonus feat.

That's a human, not a Drow... I never meant to play just a dark-skinned character... I mean, why plying a goliath if your DM doesn't give you Powerful Build?

[docnessuno]

A Black ethergaunt is an ECL 20 character.

With 16 outsider HDs and 4 LA.
With 17th level wizard casting.
With a plethora of racial features and pretty insane racial ability modifiers.

I'll admit petal is not really meant to be played as a character, but the list just had a few examples. I don't have the time nor the will to dig trought all my book to find more, but excluding the petal and the templates, it still leaves at least a pretty good example for each category.

Broken: Black ethergaunt
VERY good: Marrowlurk
Good: Goliath

[sleepyphoenixx]

LA buyoff is pretty much irrelevant for anything over LA +3 since you can't buy it off before mid to high epic.

Back on topic: Yes, if you play in a game full of Incantatrixes, Dweomerkeepers, Circle Magic and optimized chargers LA doesn't make much of a difference. I highly doubt that a DM that allows those things has a problem with LA buyoff though.

In the mid-op environment most people play getting a (by mid-level) free +6 or +8 to your stats or whatever other abilities does actually make a difference. How big depends on optimization level.
In the same environment a full caster can keep up just fine with a +1 or even +2 LA. There are actually base classes that get spells that slow without LA.:smalleek:
Is a +1 or +2 to DCs worth getting Sorcerer progression instead of Wizard progression? You'll have to decide that on your own.

There's quite a few low LA options that make good choices. Their main problem is that the human bonus feat is ridiculously strong.
Take that away and suddenly Catfolk, Goliaths etc. look a lot more attractive to non-casters.

[killem2]

If you don't have level buy offs, that idea of "balancing" is going to go out the window when you have classes hitting capstones and not getting the 9th level spells or getting the capstone abilities that make or break builds.

Level adjustments are probably the stupidest thing I've had to deal with, with 3rd edition.

So much so, that I've been considering making the level adjustments be a permanent 10% per level adjustment (maximum 50%) exp penalty that gets automatically reduced on the same progression.

Like:

LA
1 - until level 3 you have a 10% exp penalty.
2 - until level 6 you have a 20% exp penalty, then until level 9 you have 10% exp penalty.
3 - until level 9 you have a 30% exp penalty, then until level 15 you have a 20% exp penalty, then until level 18 you have a 10% exp penalty.


and so on, and so on.

[Quertus]

YMMV, so correct me if I'm wrong, or just have only experienced one side of things, but...

It seems to me that LA is actually very painful at low levels. A half-dragon, half-celestial fighter 1 cannot compete with a fighter 7, IMO. And it's even worse for casting classes.

At higher level, the stat bonuses and other abilities start to make up for the lost levels. Con bonuses eventually excede HP lost to lost HD, casters eventually hit their full progression, etc. Even the half-dragon, half-celestial wizard 50 is almost certainly better than the wizard 56.

So, sorry, I actually think level buy-off is backwards. I believe it should work more like (the admittedly woefully underpowered) bloodlines, where you *do not* pay for it up front, and slowly pay for it as you level. I've never sat down and statted out a system for it, but, off the top of my head, my first attempt would be to invert the level buy-off system: Pay for your first LA at 3rd, your 2nd at 9th, your 3rd at 18th. This produces the same half-dragon, half-celestial wizard 50 at level 56, but makes him more playable at earlier levels.

[SiuiS]

You are both correct. You're saying that after a certain point the handicap outweighs the benefits. He's saying that his power balance preference never gets that high, so the handicap doesn't actually outpace the benefits.

Consider that while playing something stronger with a bought off LA can be fun, it might outstrip your DMs ability to run a game.