Improvised Familiar: Hummingbird

[Rumo]

Hi,

my Wizard chose not to summon one of the regular familiars, as they can be found in the Players' Handbook, but instead opted for a hummingbird. Now unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) there is no description of the hummingbird in the monster manual. This has been a little bit unfortunate for awhile, but recently it became a little bit of a pain, when our gamemaster estimated the bird's touch attach around 0, because of her low sttrenght. Well, there is obviously both the book argument (e.g. Owl's STR1, Attack+5) and the sense argument (muscle strenght hardly being a factor in a bird's attempt to touch someone).

As I don't really feel neutral in this question, I'd like to ask for input here about what stats might be reasonable for this animal. Thanks in advance!

[Urpriest]

The hummingbird familiar has stats in the DMG, IIRC.

Edit: Apparently not. That said, it is from Dragon, and Dragon apparently tells you to use the stats for a Thrush, which is on DMG 203. So you can just look there to get its stats.

[FirebirdFlying]

Yep, the Dragon version says to refer to the thrush, which can be found in the DMG.

Edit-ninja'ed!

[NotScaryBats]

It actually uses the Thrush's stats, but yeah that's the book it's in.

EDIT: ninja'd by Hummingbirdflying XD

[Palanan]

The hummingbird comes up every now and then. As Urpriest mentions, the hummingbird is supposed to use the stats for a thrush, given in the back of the DMG.

However, for those of us who pay close attention to birds, this is ridiculous. A hummingbird is an order of magnitude smaller than a thrush, and it's built to operate in a completely different way.

There are several sets of alternate stats for hummingbirds floating around. I'm rather fond of mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289285).

:smallsmile:

[Yanisa]

Well, there is obviously both the book argument (e.g. Owl's STR1, Attack+5) and the sense argument (muscle strenght hardly being a factor in a bird's attempt to touch someone).

Well all tiny, fine and diminutive creatures tend to get weapon finesse as a bonus feat. Also size gives a bonus to attacks.

The Owl gets a +5 attack, 3 from dex (17) and 2 from size.

So yeah, strength is no factor to hit enemies when you are tiny. It does affect how much it hurts (damage is 1d4-3).


The hummingbird familiar has stats in the DMG, IIRC.

Edit: Apparently not. That said, it is from Dragon, and Dragon apparently tells you to use the stats for a Thrush, which is on DMG 203. So you can just look there to get its stats.

Dragon also says that the familiar bonus is +4 initiative. Ka-ching.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Yanisa
Dragon also says that the familiar bonus is +4 initiative. Ka-ching.

Which is widely regarded as having been a mistake or a typo; I think one of the writers later said it should've been +2.

[Rumo]

Thanks a lot, especially for the hummingbird link. I really like it (and it's nice to meet a fellow hummingbird wizard!) But I wonder where its attack of +15 is coming from. Other birds have +4 or +5, and according to DMG the Thrush doesn't even have an attack at all?!? (Does that mean that according to the rules I can't make touch attacks?)

[Rumo]

Well all tiny, fine and diminutive creatures tend to get weapon finesse as a bonus feat. Also size gives a bonus to attacks.

Ah, that makes sense and is really good to know!

[Urpriest]

Thanks a lot, especially for the hummingbird link. I really like it (and it's nice to meet a fellow hummingbird wizard!) But I wonder where its attack of +15 is coming from. Other birds have +4 or +5, and according to DMG the Thrush doesn't even have an attack at all?!? (Does that mean that according to the rules I can't make touch attacks?)

That just means it doesn't have a natural attack. You still calculate touch attacks the same way (and in general, you shouldn't use natural attack bonuses to calculate touch attacks, since the creature might have Weapon Focus or the like).

[Rumo]

That just means it doesn't have a natural attack. You still calculate touch attacks the same way (and in general, you shouldn't use natural attack bonuses to calculate touch attacks, since the creature might have Weapon Focus or the like).

So according to the rules (Thrush) it would be Base Attack 0 + DEX bonus 2 + tiny bonus 2 = 4?

[Yanisa]

Which is widely regarded as having been a mistake or a typo; I think one of the writers later said it should've been +2.

Silly enough the same type of mistake is made in Pathfinder. +2 is far more in line with the other bonuses, but it doesn't stop +4 from popping up everywhere!


Thanks a lot, especially for the hummingbird link. I really like it (and it's nice to meet a fellow hummingbird wizard!) But I wonder where its attack of +15 is coming from. Other birds have +4 or +5, and according to DMG the Thrush doesn't even have an attack at all?!? (Does that mean that according to the rules I can't make touch attacks?)

So according to the rules (Thrush) it would be Base Attack 0 + DEX bonus 2 + tiny bonus 2 = 4?

Relevant Size Modifiers:
Tiny +2
Diminutive +4
Fine +8

The Posted Hummingbird is fine (+8) and has 24 dex (+7 modifier). So it gets a +15.

The Thrush is Diminutive (+4) and has 15 dex (+2). So it has a touch attack of +6, like stated before it lack a natural attack so it cant deal damage. It can still touch you! And deliver touch spells.

I don't want to argue to much about power, but the posted hummingbird looks really strong in comparison. The Trush is more in line with the default familiars, even though it doesn't represent a hummingbird proper.

[Palanan]

So call it a thrush familiar. Problem solved.

:smalltongue:

[icefractal]

Pretty sure the +4 is because that's what Improved Initiative gives, and most of the other bonuses are +3 to skill - aka what Skill Focus gives. So they're both worth a feat. In practice, Improved Initiative is a much better feat than Skill Focus.

[Rumo]

I've always held the opinion that specifically for the hummingbird a +2 reflex save bonus might be more fitting than +2 initiative - although the latter might be more useful to my wizard, playing in a group with a girl who's planning on Frenzied Berserker. :thog: The unique ability to change directions in midair associates better with reflexes than initiative, to my mind.

[Barstro]

Silly enough the same type of mistake is made in Pathfinder. +2 is far more in line with the other bonuses, but it doesn't stop +4 from popping up everywhere!

That really made my Caster have ridiculous initiative and made it very difficult to get an Improved Familiar (and lose that +4)

I do understand the argument that +4 initiative and +3 stat are both worth a feat, but while all feats are equal, some are more equal than others.

[Yanisa]

Pretty sure the +4 is because that's what Improved Initiative gives, and most of the other bonuses are +3 to skill - aka what Skill Focus gives. So they're both worth a feat. In practice, Improved Initiative is a much better feat than Skill Focus.

That really made my Caster have ridiculous initiative and made it very difficult to get an Improved Familiar (and lose that +4)

I do understand the argument that +4 initiative and +3 stat are both worth a feat, but while all feats are equal, some are more equal than others.

I must admit I was in error too!

I thought the save bonuses were +1 and thus half a feat, but they are like the feat a full +2. So yeah +4 initiative should be the intended amount, how powerful it may be. :smallsigh:
Makes it's quite easy for a wizard to get +13 initiative ignoring dex or items. (Or else it was +11! that difference!)

One last thing on the balance of feats and familiar bonuses... +3 HP... Toughness or Toad...


I've always held the opinion that specifically for the hummingbird a +2 reflex save bonus might be more fitting than +2 initiative - although the latter might be more useful to my wizard, playing in a group with a girl who's planning on Frenzied Berserker. :thog: The unique ability to change directions in midair associates better with reflexes than initiative, to my mind.

Besides +2 reflex is a strong bonus too, perhaps not useful in every combat (depends on your DM and your enemies) like initiative, but it helps you deal with one of your weaker saves.

[Rumo]

Besides +2 reflex is a strong bonus too, perhaps not useful in every combat (depends on your DM and your enemies) like initiative, but it helps you deal with one of your weaker saves.

Yes it is, absolutely. But when you have a girl in your party who must make a will save whenever she cuts herself in the finger or gets bitten by a flea in order to not go amok and chop your head off, going first and greasing the ground between her and you has a higher priority. :smallsmile: