What Tier is this fighter?

[Particle_Man]

This is not an optimized fighter, so I wasn't sure where he fits in the Tier system, and what would be an appropriate sort of challenges for a party of characters in the same Tier.

(Hill) Dwarf Fighter
level 1 stats: str 16, dex 14, con 16, int 14, wis 10, chr 6 (after racial adj).

Skills: max out Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive (all cross-class).

Feats:
1: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise
2: Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Improved Disarm
6: Iron Will, Weapon Focus (SC)
8: Weapon Specialization (SC)
9: Great Fortitude
10: Greater Weapon Focus (SC)
12: Lightning Reflexes, Greater Weapon Specialization (SC)
14: Improved Critical (SC)
15: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
16: Weapon Specialization (L)
18: Greater Weapon Focus (L), Greater Weapon Specialization (L)
20: Improved Critical (L)

[Edit: I swapped Dex and Wis to make Combat Reflexes more useful. Thanks for that catch!]

[Boci]

By the looks of it this is tier 6, so about as good as the complete warrior samurai who isn't optimizing intimidate. Is this a core only game?

[Frozen_Feet]

Low tier 4. He can fight and spot things and not even all that well, and can't really do anything else by virtue of his class abilities.

[Urpriest]

Individual characters don't have Tiers. Rather, the Tier system is about what sorts of character-building resources different classes provide.

That said, you don't get any use out of your skills since anyone interested in deceiving you is able to put max ranks into theirs, and you've only got some very mild tripping ability with otherwise no especially powerful/encounter-solving tricks, so I'd say you're building within the Tier 5 capabilities of a normal Fighter, maybe using them a little poorly and thus making something more Tier 6-esque.

[Boci]

Low tier 4. He can fight and spot things and not even all that well, and can't really do anything else by virtue of his class abilities.

So 1 tier higher than a normal fighter? (Fighters are tier 5)

[Frozen_Feet]

I recalled them as being Tier 4, but after checking that appears to apply only to few specific versions (Zhentarim, Dungeoncrasher). So Tier 5 is correct, you are right.

[Vhaidara]

My comments assume that you have a party consisting of you, a rogue, a heal/buffbot cleric, and a blast wizard (pretty standard low tier party) More details on the party makeup will help us judge if you're on par with them.

Odds are you are way behind them though.

You are low T5 at best, probably T6.

By my understanding, the Tiers are ceilings. The most optimized (barring things like Pun-Pun that don't care about your class) example of the class sets the tier it is in. And this is a pretty bad fighter.

Combat Reflexes is a dead feat without Gloves of Dexterity (ok, so you can make AoOs while flatfooted, not really worth a feat on its own). The Weapon Focus line, which you took twice, is terrible. Ditto the Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude/Iron Will (usually only taken if they are prerequisites for something).

Spiked Chain is about the only redeeming thing in the build. If you're Core only, I'll refer you to the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), usually considered to be about the only halfway decent build for a Core-only Fighter.

Skillwise, Sense Motive isn't very useful since, as has been pointed out, anyone trying to Bluff you will have full ranks and probably at least a +3 Cha bonus, giving them a bonus roughly double yours. Search is also almost useless for people without Trapfinding, because Trapfinding puts a limit on how much use you can get out of it.

I would recommend instead grabbing Balance, since without 5 ranks you are automatically flat footed just for making the check. Intimidate is a skill that you should ask your DM if you can base off of Str. It's really silly that the Sorcerer is automatically scarier than the Fighter or the Barbarian just because he has a much better Cha. Also, class skill.

20 levels of fighter is pretty bad on its own. Depending on your alignment...

Paladin 3: You get Smite for +3 damage to an evil target once a day, but the real draws here are Aura of Courage and Divine Health.

Barbarian Many: Barbarian is generally better than Fighter. More skill points, better class features, better skill list.

Ranger 3: More skill points, better saves, and nets you Track (possibly something useful you can do out of combat), Rapid Shot (from Combat Style), a favored enemy, and free Endurance (Diehard is decent enough, ignoring the crap requirement of Endurance). Going to 4 nets your a crappy animal companion.

Also a note on Paladin and Ranger: they let you use wands/scrolls of things on their spell lists without Use Magic Device. The big winner here in core is the Wand of Cure Light Wounds for out of combat healing.

[OldTrees1]

This is not an optimized fighter, so I wasn't sure where he fits in the Tier system, and what would be an appropriate sort of challenges for a party of characters in the same Tier.
Well this is low Tier 5 sliding into Tier 6.


Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well
Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise.

A party of similarly tiered characters would need to face encounters below their level. Since they are not proficient at their expertise, they are not collectively up to par vs encounters.

However there are ways out of Tier 5.

The skill selection was a start however it is useful at the Tier 4 to Tier 3 barrier.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise

However to slide from Tier 5 up to Tier 4, the fighter need to become good at fighting. This involves being able to handle a variety of enemies using a variety of tactics in a variety of enviroments.
Flight and ability to target Fort, Ref and Will saves is a good start.



Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, ...
Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well

[Flickerdart]

It's a trip monkey who isn't any good at tripping (Combat Reflexes with 10 Dex? What?) who also took the feats to be bad at archery. T6 all the way - it's not going to be any good at the things it's focusing on, and the things it's focusing on aren't super great to start with.

[eggynack]

My bet would likely be high tier six, if we're assuming that other tier six characters are being reasonably optimized. The question, I suppose, is how much actual feat-value the character possesses. In other words, how many feats would it take for some other character to match the power of this character? I can only count about four or five real feats here, with EWP: spiked chain, combat expertise, and improved trip definitely counting as feats, and combat reflexes and improved disarm maybe having between a half to a whole feat of value. After that, all of the feats are terrible, so the entire pile might possibly add up to two feats or so. A warrior, purely by the merit of normal feat acquisition, gets that many purely by existing, though the good ones might be more staggered, and a CW samurai will do even better by comparison. So, tier six is a reasonable assertion.

[Particle_Man]

Skillwise, Sense Motive isn't very useful since, as has been pointed out, anyone trying to Bluff you will have full ranks and probably at least a +3 Cha bonus, giving them a bonus roughly double yours. Search is also almost useless for people without Trapfinding, because Trapfinding puts a limit on how much use you can get out of it.

I was wondering if the ability to add BAB to one's sense motive vs. bluff might mitigate the disadvantage of less skill ranks.

And I was thinking of the things the dwarves racial ability allows you to seach for (sliding walls, etc.) when using search ranks.

Good catch on the 10 dex and combat reflexes, I would probably need to up the dex and lower the wis then (maybe just trade them).

So what sort of encounters would one set up for a Tier 6 party (since the consensus is that such a character would be about Tier 6)?

[Urpriest]

I was wondering if the ability to add BAB to one's sense motive vs. bluff might mitigate the disadvantage of less skill ranks.


Where are you getting that? The only versions of that I'm aware of deal with feints, which don't come up very often, especially in a core-only game.


And I was thinking of the things the dwarves racial ability allows you to seach for (sliding walls, etc.) when using search ranks.

While that's true, grabbing them cross-class means you'll never meet the DCs of traps and the like at your CR.


So what sort of encounters would one set up for a Tier 6 party (since the consensus is that such a character would be about Tier 6)?

Other Tier 6 NPCs, really. Monsters, with a few exceptions, would be too powerful, especially if played intelligently (which can happen at random, since it's often hard to see whether a particular tactic is too powerful in advance).

[Rakaydos]

Could a Tier 6 party handle encounters at CR-3? or some other reasonable offset?

[Particle_Man]

Where are you getting that? The only versions of that I'm aware of deal with feints, which don't come up very often, especially in a core-only game.

Feints must be what I was thinking of. I imagine it could come up if the fighter was fighting a single rogue and/or assassin and/or blackguard who is using sneak attack, for example.

[OldTrees1]

Could a Tier 6 party handle encounters at CR-3? or some other reasonable offset?

A reasonable offset would work if the encounters were restricted to Enemies, Tactics and Environments that the party can engage.
A dragon is likely to wipe the floor with the party even with a CR offset. (Since flying evoker is a tactic/environment that the party will have difficulty engaging with)

[Abithrios]

By my understanding, the Tiers are ceilings. The most optimized (barring things like Pun-Pun that don't care about your class) example of the class sets the tier it is in. And this is a pretty bad fighter.

Actually, the tier system assumes average optimization. A fighter who chooses the right area of expertise and the right feats can become quite good at their one trick--the very definition of tier 4.

[Vhaidara]

So what sort of encounters would one set up for a Tier 6 party (since the consensus is that such a character would be about Tier 6)?

Honestly? I would say no more than CR -3. You are looking at a party of a badly built fighter and NPC classes. Remember, Commoner is T6.

[Stoneback]

Well, he's a fighter, so... 5

If you like hitting people with spiked chains, you will do fine until about level 8 when the full casters don't need you anymore :(

[Flickerdart]

Actually, the tier system assumes average optimization. A fighter who chooses the right area of expertise and the right feats can become quite good at their one trick--the very definition of tier 4.
The tier system assumes equal optimization. If the fighter's party is just as optimized as he is, he's still 5 because the sort of challenges they face leave him in the dust.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (rename it big-bad-bully and strip it of any association to an organization), get the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, and get free class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). That should move you up at least one tier.

Don't waste feats on any of the +2 save feats. Get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole in CS for 3,000 gp without spending a feat on it, and forget the other two even exist. If you get Improved Trip, also take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) so you'll be able to make normal attacks and then trip them for free (and make another attack for Improved Trip, depending on interpretation).

If you're going to invest in so many Fighter levels, at least get Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy in PH2. If those aren't available, then don't take more than nine (Zhentarim Soldier) or ten (feat) Fighter levels total. Even if those are available, you can go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 and get Weapon Supremacy at 20th level with your Fighter 10 bonus feat.

Since you have Zhentarim Solder, get the feat Imperious Command in DotU along with the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Pick up some armor with the Fearsome property in DotU, it was printed more recently than MIC so that's the most up to date version of that item. Go with a race that can take Dreadful Wrath in PGtF (Human or Planetouched). You could use any Humanoid (Human) race or even a half-Human race (Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs)) with the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in RoD p150. A Desert Half-Orc can also visit the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it.

Get large size somehow, so you can use the feat Knock-Back in RoS with Dungeoncrasher to deal significantly higher damage. At the very least get Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) + Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) at a caster level of 20th, which should only cost 3,700 gp at the standard rates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell). Get it from a caster with a Ring of Enduring Arcana (anyone with a caster level of 20th should already own one) so the Dispel DC is 35. The best case scenario is to use a template like Half-Minotaur (Dragon 313) or even Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) (gradually gained (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) and gradually bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)) to be naturally large size, and get a significant boost to your ability scores. If starting at 1st level, you can use the Powerful Races at 1st Level variant in PGtF p191.

Get something from every category in the Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) list, and get Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). Also consider taking Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for multiple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm#investLifeEnergy) awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265506#14) reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5). Note that since an Item Familiar is already an intelligent item, you would follow the rules for Adding New Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities), even regarding additional intelligent item properties and a special purpose/power.

[ericgrau]

Well disarm and trip are a far greater threat to PCs than to monsters. Especially at low level. That said, the build gets a little so-so after level 8.

[Particle_Man]

Well, he's a fighter, so... 5

If you like hitting people with spiked chains, you will do fine until about level 8 when the full casters don't need you anymore :(

What are the full casters at tier 5? The Healer? I don't see that particular caster making the OP fighter become overshadowed.

To clarify, I am not thinking of putting this fighter in the same party as higher tier characters - I am wondering how to run a game designed for characters at the same tier as this fighter.

[eggynack]

What are the full casters at tier 5? The Healer? I don't see that particular caster making the OP fighter become overshadowed.
They might be able to if they push heavily on sanctified spells. Then again, I generally consider a healer with sanctified spells something of a tier four, though I may be mistaken in that belief. It adds a lot of stuff.

[Particle_Man]

Well either the Healer does not overshadow the fighter or it does. If it does, I just would not run a game with it in the same party as the fighter, as the whole point of my OP is, first, to find a party that the fighter as described in the OP would not be overshadowed by (hence the request to find a proper tier for this less than fully optimized fighter), and then to learn tips on how to DM a campaign for such a party.

If the fighter is Tier 6 (as some say it is) then that would presumably require suitable breaks for healing up, as there would be no Healer (even one without sanctified spells).

If the fighter as described in the OP is tier 5, maybe I would allow a Healer but not the sanctified spells, thus allowing the party to have some more variety but not having the fighter overshadowed by the full spellcaster in the party.

[Lans]

Really, this is tier 5, its warrior+, or samurai+, and barbarian - . Get rid of improved critical and disarm for rapid shot.

as for tiers of particular characters, use the definitions provided in the tiers that have been brought up.

[(Un)Inspired]

So what sort of encounters would one set up for a Tier 6 party (since the consensus is that such a character would be about Tier 6)?

A group of serfs are rising up against their noble landowners. They're malnourished, uneducated and poorly armed. The PCs are all mercenaries hired to halt this uprising.

[Particle_Man]

Eh, I can do better than that as DM. There are a ton of different types of humanoids, some from warrior cultures. Some of the large (not huge) giants could work as "boss monsters". If I take away the spells and spell-like abilities from the monsters, I think many of them could work too, though certainly not all. Skeletons and zombies and some other corporeal undead should be feasible.

I think I could try to design T5-6, the game within D&D (somewhat like E6, only instead of a level cap it becomes a tier cap). :smallsmile:

[Gnaeus]

Well either the Healer does not overshadow the fighter or it does.

No. Healer does not really overshadow fighter. A particular healer may overshadow a particular fighter. A Healer drawing heavily on Sanctified spells may act like a T4, but a fighter with Shock Trooper generally will also.

I would be looking at a lineup like Healer, Adept, Ninja or expert, this guy. Adepts are technically tier 4, but are unlikely to overshadow this fighter (at least until they begin using Polymorph, which is around level 13 IIRC, and you could always swap that out. )

[Mystral]

Chain Tripper would be Tier 5, as he can only do one thing competently and.. that's it really. He can trip stuff. What is he going to do against something that can't be tripped? And maybe even immune against piercing damage, like an ooze? Also, that addition of the Longbow at high levels is completely useless, he'd be better served by taking toughness.. And by the way, where is his Power Attack?

I guess a party of this power level could handle challenges of up to their CR. Perhaps their CR+1 or +2 as a single fight for the day, as long as it isn't immune to a majority of their meager arsenal.

[Gnaeus]

Chain Tripper would be Tier 5, as he can only do one thing competently and.. that's it really. He can trip stuff. What is he going to do against something that can't be tripped? And maybe even immune against piercing damage, like an ooze?

Chain trippers are usually tier 4. They can do one thing competently... Battlefield control/melee combat. They can be shut down (partially) by things that can't be tripped (although a well built tripper is also likely to have stand still, which works fine against oozes). But a charge build can be shut down by anything that prevents charges, and is still likely T4.

Anything with a single good trick is likely to be tier 4. Fighters live in tier 5 by default because a badly built fighter isn't good at anything, including fighting. Once you reach the point where you are competent at fighting, (and most chain trippers are, since people who aren't optimizers at some level won't usually figure out the advantages of making chain trippers) you crawl out of tier 5. This fighter is about as bad as a chain tripper can get. Swapping to get a higher dex helps. But I don't see the continuation of the focus. Fighters without a focus are typically bad at everything, and our guy is no exception. If he swapped all the crummy weapon focus/spec/archery feats for normal chain tripper stuff like Thicket of Blades, Stand Still, Power Attack, and maybe the mage slayer line We would be looking at something that could play with T4s without being embarassed.

[Flickerdart]

Chain Tripper would be Tier 5, as he can only do one thing competently and.. that's it really.
He's not really a chain tripper - he's missing things like a positive Dexterity modifier that are key to tripping.


Get rid of improved critical and disarm for rapid shot.
With what Dexterity?

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if I can add soulborn and divine mind to this Tier. They are usually thought of as weak and I don't think they would overshadow the OP fighter.

Oh, to answer other questions, if the fighter faced something piercing weapons would not work against, he would probably pull out another, non-piercing weapon and full attack that thing. The fighter still has weapon proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, even sans weapon focus/specialization.

If such a monster would still overwhelm this fighter (or more accurately, a party of characters of the same power level as this fighter) that would be a reason not to use that monster (or to use it against a much higher level party than one would if using a T3 party, for example).

And I have edited the fighter so his dexterity is 14 (and his wisdom is 10).

[Lans]

They would be about the same, the divine mind might be a bit stronger, but its a buffer so it won't be noticable