defense vs. planar binding

[KorbeltheReader]

Riffing off another thread here where people show pretty conclusively that there are a few outsiders that you'd be crazy not to target with planar binding (noble djinn, nightmare, etc.) and that there's really not much they can do to stop you from bombarding them with save penalties and extracting a one-sided deal, or worse, forcing them to grant you, say, 2 of the 3 wishes, and then just killing them to keep them from retaliating.

You have to figure that efreeti and djinn communities consider this a curse on their existence. They live in constant fear of being humiliated or worse by a greedy Prime Material spellcaster. Efreeti, their lives considered valueless by good and evil spellcasters alike since they're evil-aligned, are much more likely to be killed at the conclusion of the "deal." Every noble djinn knows somebody who was suddenly scooped out of their day-to-day existence in the middle of morning coffee, cursed, feared, charmed, cleaned out of their wishes, and kicked back into the Plane of Air with no concern about their survival in such a state.

Surely they've gotten together and figured out some way of dealing with this problem. They wouldn't just hang back and let the Prime Material plane terrorize them with impunity!

Have any of y'all dealt with this issue in your campaign? What did you do and how well did it work? I'm considering creating a network in Faerun that are either servitors of outsiders or are fulfilling the terms of a deal by acting as "enforcers" against spellcasters using the planar binding line. I want the threat to be severe enough that the players only use the spell when it's necessary, but not so severe that it functions as a soft ban.

[Slipperychicken]

I like Shadowrun's take on binding spirits: It's slavery and you can generally get away with it, but being excessively cruel will call down spiritual hit-squads, and heaven help you if you travel the planes. Trying to humiliate powerful spirits (in this case, genies) is going to quickly earn you enemies.

As for a rules-based defense, I'm sure that genies could Wish up something to ward off planar binding attempts.


Also, there's this bit about genies:


Genies are humanlike beings who dwell on the elemental planes. They are famous for their strength, guile, and skill with illusion magic.

So yeah, if you mess with a creature that has Int 15 and Wish 3/day, you're going to regret it.

[Frozen_Feet]

Such pointless optimism from the binder's part to expect those creatures have any uses of Wish left in typical summoning circumstances. :smallamused:

In general, my settings tend to have a limited number of creatures with powers. There is a very good chance any creature you would really want to summon has already been summoned and is resting, or has used those abilities for its every day life.

For wish-granting creatures in particular, I imagine every child of a Noble Djinn saying this every morning:

"I wish daddy can spend the whole day home today!"

And daddy replies:

"Wish granted, my dear."

[Slipperychicken]

For wish-granting creatures in particular, I imagine every child of a Noble Djinn saying this every morning:

"I wish daddy can spend the whole day home today!"

And daddy replies:

"Wish granted, my dear."

This is the most heartwarming thing I have read in weeks.

[Frozen_Feet]

For less-nice spirits, I heartily recommend watching Aladdin II: Return of Jafar. I'm fairly sure Efreeti can get pretty good Intimidate modifiers if they want to.

"Do you wish to do everything I tell you in order to get out of this certain doom I've arranged for you?" :smallamused:

[DeltaEmil]

Genies can only grant wishes to non-genies.

And if the noble djinn really has no wishes left, then you simply wait for one day until he or she can grant wishes again while inside the the planar binding trap.

The easiest thing is of course to simply make a simulacrum of an efreeti or a noble djinn, so that the genies aren't bothered by mortal anymore, and the mortals have their own perma-pseudo-genie who will never twist the wishes and never disobeys.

[Frozen_Feet]

The children hardly need to be genies themselves, whether we're looking to circumvent that clause by metamorphing magic or through wacky D&D genetics.

[Slipperychicken]

Genies can only grant wishes to non-genies.


That's why any genie worth his Wishes would keep around a dominated creature (perhaps an awakened parrot or symbiote?) who only wishes what the genie tells him to.

Basically, the genie would have some manner of easily-portable dominated creature, the genie tells the creature what to wish for (perhaps via direct control or telepathic bond), the creature makes the wish, and the genie grants it.

[Frozen_Feet]

"Dominated creature"? Pfft.

Here's how it works: we need one Efreeti, two level Lawful Neutral 1 Clerics capable of casting Detect Law and Detect Good with max ranks in Sense Motive and Knowledge (Local), and one level Lawful Good 1 Expert (Lawyer) with Int 15 and max ranks in Profession (Lawyer) and Craft (Legal Document).

The Efreeti promises the clerics that they will, at a later date, be granted three wishes each if they choose to serve it. This offer is made with full intent to keep it. The clerics are there basically to act as hired muscle and to find the Expert. I see no reason for them to decline, but if it must, the Efreeti can easily use Intimidate to cow them to servitude.

Next, the Efreeti and the clerics use their detection ablities and skills to find the Expert. The Expert is then made a similar offer, with full intent to fulfill it. Again, if three wishes are not sufficient incentive, the Efreeti can Intimidate the Expert into doing exactly as told.

So what is he told, then? Basically, the Efreet and the clerics explain that in order to preserve order and peace, the power of wishing must not fall into wrong hands. To that end, certain stipulations must be put in place, and they will be placed through the wishes of the Expert. The Efreet will then give instructions on what the Expert should wish. If necessary, the Expert will be threatened by immediate execution if he slips from the wording. The clerics use Sense Motive to ascertain the Expert is being truthful if (when) he agrees, and will then ready actions to kill the Expert if he tries to twist the wording.

The Expert shall wish, in order:


For his wish and the next two wishes to take precedent over any and all wishes requested from the granting Efreeti.
For all wishes asked from the granting Efreeti to be unable to cause any direct or indirect harm to the Efreeti or its extended family.
For all wishes asked from the granting Efreeti to be subject to immediate dispelling should the Efreeti say the word X.


What's going on here, you ask? Well, by RAW wish allows playing Calvinball with its own rules. By using one friendly servant, we will use repeated wishes to create a complex set of meta-rules over and above the normal ones. Rules-wise, they're either crafted contingent spells or permanent-duration spell-effects with caster level 12th, so they're suspect to dispelling and/or disjunction - but we can just keep piling on these effects until they're virtually impermeable. For example, we could order the Expert to continue with:


I wish for the granting Efreeti to be placed under the Protection from Chaos spell. (1st level spell, eligible for wish.)
I wish for the Protection spell I wished upon the granting Efreeti to become permanent in duration. (5th level spell, eligible for wish.)
I wish for the permanent duration protection-spell I wished upon the granting Efreeti to automatically succeed in the next saving throw against dispelling or disjoining. ("Undo misfortune", eligible for wish.)


Repeat with mindblank (8th level spell so eligible for wish), freedom of movement and any other defensive spell that could be even midly useful.

Afterwards, we can stake upkeeping all these protections on the soul of the Expert, and grant him more wishes to Polymorph any object (8th level spell, eligible to wish) him into one of the various biologically immortal monsters and then use Psychic reformation (4th level power, eligible for wish) to grant him proper feats and skill points to stay alive from monsters. Then we just use our own spell-like Planeshift to take him into a genie fortress city or some other safe place where he can live the rest of his life in luxury and safety.

So on and so forth. The above are just examples, a rough guideline what a wish-granting being can make with the help of three level 1 characters. As wish-granting genies are CR 8, the question becomes:

When are you getting your planar binding?

Because if you have to work your way to character level 9 when you would ordinarily get 5th level spells (for the lesser version), you are hopelessly late. The genies already completed their plan and screwed your rules-lawyering behind before-the-fact. They have already rigged all wishes they could grant in such a manner that they can only benefit them, and have made themselves immune to any and all methods you could use to coerce services out of them through planar binding. Chances are you can't hold a candle against them without zapping them with Disjunction and quickened area dispel first.

And they don't need character levels or dominate person to do this. They need a 1st level character cowed to read lines from a paper. I used Expert for kicks, it could just as well be a commoner with subpar abilities.

[icefractal]

You don't even need readied actions to kill them or anything. Efreet can only grant wishes to mortals, but they don't have to grant any particular wish.

So:
Bob: I wish for a set of floor tiles that dimensionally lock the area around them.
Efreet: Granted.
Bob: And now I wish for ... you to be under my control! Ahaha!
Efreet: Not granted. *Slaps Bob* Now get back to the list I gave you.

But ... this doesn't really solve the "SLA Wish = Infinite Power" thing, it just means that Efreet are the ones with that power.

[Brookshw]

Just have Bob wish they had the monstrous human sub type instead. That leaves gate to deal but for that just stay on your home plane.

Hordes of contracted incorpreal assasins for fun, incorpreal creatures can't be supported by a solid surface so aren't valid targets for any conjurations (go figure).

[Frozen_Feet]

But ... this doesn't really solve the "SLA Wish = Infinite Power" thing, it just means that Efreet are the ones with that power.

Technically, the first being to cast wish (or miracle etc.) should be able to dictate how every other creature after it are allowed to use that spell. But RAW doesn't go into that much detail. (Or, well, it does, but it's still lack-luster in how it does it.)

If we want to approach the question from a setting-building perspective, the question becomes: who gets wish first? 'Cause any user who is not a total half-wit should be able to formulate a wish like:


All wishes after this one that could lead to creation of more wishes within three steps of separation fail at the step before the additional wish would be granted.


This obviously means you can't wish for more wishes. Technically, it'd mean you fail to even think of wishing for wishes, as thinking is the prior step.

But it'd also mean you can't wish for creatures or magic items capable of granting wishes, as that's only two steps of separation. You'd always get the creature without ability to grant wishes, or the magic item without any charges in it.

You also couldn't wish for creatures or items capable of otherwise summoning or crafting creatures or items capable of granting wishes. For example, you wouldn't be able to wish for a Solar and then tell it to gate in another Solar to grant wishes - the first Solar would not have wish, and the second Solar would not have either wish or gate!

In any case, wishing becomes considerably less awesome if someone else achieved that power simultaneously, or if you were late to the party and got it second (or third, or fourth...). It's Calvinball, basically - you are playing the game with someone else's rules, and they won't tell you what those rules are until after you've broken them.

(If Divine rules [as per SRD or Deities and Demigods] are in play, just replace "1st being to cast wish" with "1st being to attain Divine Rank 1".)

[Jack_Simth]

incorpreal creatures can't be supported by a solid surface so aren't valid targets for any conjurations (go figure).
Oh, that can be gotten around. Use a Forcecage base, for instance (or just a Resilient Sphere). You now have a surface that ignores incorporeality.

[Erik Vale]

Three methods that I don't think have been touched on.
Planar binding doesn't target those native to your plane [I think, if not it's a very common houserule], which is why you can't just target the Tiefling BBEG unless you can perform planar travel.
In this case, a generous reading/a normal reading of the Spelltouched Feat requiring to be affected by Dimensional Anchor which makes you always count as being native could make you immune. Of course, a very generous reading.

Secondly, pump will saves and nab the pride domain through the Catalouges/being a cleric. Then your chance of becoming bound becomes 1/400*number of your species targetable.

Thirdly take the ritual in savage species to become a non-outsider. [If your an Efreeti, you have the ability to shape change into any giant, use it instead if you want] [the type changing one]. Also change away from genie at the same time to grant your own wishes.

[Duke of Urrel]

I imagine that the Planar Binding spells are permitted by the gods as part of the general war between the alignments.

Remember that when you create a magic circle trap, you must cast a Magic Circle spell. This is an aligned spell, so that for example when you cast Magic Circle Against Evil, this is a Good spell, whereas when you cast Magic Circle Against Good, this is an Evil spell, and so on.

Now, there are no rules that say that anything bad happens to arcane spellcasters who cast spells that are opposed to their own alignment, but I should think that it is highly improper, to say the least. Indeed, I have even imposed two house rules of my own here.


One of them imposes a negative energy level for 24 hours whenever you cast an arcane spell that is opposed to your own alignment.


The second house rule, a necessary addition to the first, states that by first casting a Magic Circle Against (Alignment) spell that matches your own alignment, you avoid the imposition of a negative energy level when you cast a Planar Binding spell whose alignment is opposed to your own.

The upshot of this is as follows: Good conjurers customarily use Planar Binding to entrap Evil Outsiders. Evil conjurers use it to entrap Good Outsiders. Lawful conjurers use it to entrap Chaotic Outsiders. Chaotic conjurers use it to entrap Lawful Outsiders. This satisfies the gods, who mutually agree to accept this cross-alignment entrapment as part of the perpetual war between the alignments.

There are exceptions to this custom, of course. It's not set in stone. Some Evil conjurers detest Good Outsiders, hate trying to argue with them over morality and scruples, and prefer to entrap Evil Outsiders whose alignment is opposed along the Law-Chaos-axis, if possible. Some conjurers avoid alignment conflict altogether by calling purely Neutral Elementals.

The Planar Ally spells operate under the same general terms, as part of the perpetual war between the alignments, though of course they are used in the opposite way, to conjure Outsiders who share the conjurer's alignment.

[Jack_Simth]

The Planar Ally spells operate under the same general terms, as part of the perpetual war between the alignments, though of course they are used in the opposite way, to conjure Outsiders who share the conjurer's alignment.Note that as the Planar Ally line is divine, you have to go through quite a few hoops to cast an opposed-alignment planar ally spell anyway - Clerics (and most divine casters) have a clause: "A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. "

[MirddinEmris]

Well, if i already was going in "Abusing calling spells" kind of direction, i don't think that 1 negative level is gonna stop me from this because of ton of way to gain immunity to this, or just high enough saves so it doesn't stick.

About safety of killing demons and devils after they grant you your wishes - i recall something about outsiders (true, not native) being reformed on their original plane if killed on Material. So, it's not on any way a permanent solution, you just pissed of a powerful evil being with vast resources.

[Erik Vale]

Given the fact that said process normally takes a couple of centuries, I figure your pretty safe, as you have that long to die or gain power.

[MirddinEmris]

Given the fact that said process normally takes a couple of centuries, I figure your pretty safe, as you have that long to die or gain power.

Really? Didn't knew that...

Is there are rules for such things?

[Erik Vale]

RAW, not that I know of, fluff... I'd try a fiendish codex but I'm not sure.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Hallow and Unhallow can have Dimensional Anchor effects tied to them. The living spaces of Outsiders are often either Hallowed or Unhallowed precisely as a security measure against both intrusion and being forcibly called. In societies where everyone can teleport and everyone is subject to being forcibly called, such effects would be used in the same way we use walls and doors.

2) Dimensional Shackles are well within the gp limit of items created by Wish. ANY creature with a Wish SLA has probably managed to use it to its benefit at least once. And the first thing it will do is make sure it cannot be enslaved via planar binding.


3) Wish does not give you infinite power. Any "greater effects" than the standard list are subject to twisting or partially or fully failing. In addition, getting permanent effects via Wish exploitation is no different than stealing magic items; it gets you beyond your WBL and by RAW your DM should see to it that you are returned to WBL limits, often with creatively negative effects.

[Erik Vale]

3) Wish does not give you infinite power. Any "greater effects" than the standard list are subject to twisting or partially or fully failing. In addition, getting permanent effects via Wish exploitation is no different than stealing magic items; it gets you beyond your WBL and by RAW your DM should see to it that you are returned to WBL limits, often with creatively negative effects.

WBL is a guideline.
You can gain massively overpowered things through wish, even within it's guidelines.
Within the guidelines includes a Candle of Invocation, with which you can force more wishes.

Sounds like a pretty good recipee. Perticularly as if you consider WBL RAW over Guideline, you'll consider worshipers to god power RAW also. Spam Simulcrum, become a overgod, do whatever.

[Aharon]

Well, if you are the DM and want to limit Planar Binding, the best way is to talk to your players.

If you don't want to go that way (although I think it is better than what is outlined below), by RAW, Planar binding s pretty dysfunctional (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14453860&postcount=1377) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14522781&postcount=1429)).

If both these dysfunctions were taken in account, Planar Binding is basically limited to higher level casters:


Cast the Magic circle
Cast a quickened dimensional anchor
cast a quickened greater plane shift
The conditions of your crafted contingency trigger and Planar binding is cast on your target
Planar travel back and debuff

[Brookshw]

Oh, that can be gotten around. Use a Forcecage base, for instance (or just a Resilient Sphere). You now have a surface that ignores incorporeality.

Good points though it does require extra prep. I wonder if some form of reversion field pushing the ground away might work, can't think of any creatures offhand that possessing such an ability.

[Necroticplague]

About safety of killing demons and devils after they grant you your wishes - i recall something about outsiders (true, not native) being reformed on their original plane if killed on Material. So, it's not on any way a permanent solution, you just pissed of a powerful evil being with vast resources.

Actually, it's more potent than that, it's whenever they die on their not native plane. However, thinaum (probably spelt that wrong) weapons trap the souls of those they kill. That should stop them from re-forming, especially since an outsiders soul is its body.

[Psyren]

Riffing off another thread here where people show pretty conclusively that there are a few outsiders that you'd be crazy not to target with planar binding (noble djinn, nightmare, etc.) and that there's really not much they can do to stop you from bombarding them with save penalties and extracting a one-sided deal, or worse, forcing them to grant you, say, 2 of the 3 wishes, and then just killing them to keep them from retaliating.

The genie itself might not be able to retaliate, but you'd be quite a fool to think that means you're perfectly safe forever.

[Rubik]

Such pointless optimism from the binder's part to expect those creatures have any uses of Wish left in typical summoning circumstances. :smallamused:The genie used all of his up today?

It's a good thing the entrapment aspect of Planar Binding lasts for 24 hours per CL, then.


For wish-granting creatures in particular, I imagine every child of a Noble Djinn saying this every morning:

"I wish daddy can spend the whole day home today!"

And daddy replies:

"Wish granted, my dear."It's also a good thing that they can only use their Wishes on non-genies.

[edit] Djinn'd!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

WBL is a guideline.
OK, we're not using WBL guidelines. Every single enemy NPC happens to have a plane-shift crafted contingency to get him away instantly if you attack him and a Gate crafted contingency that immediately calls you to its new location and puts you in its power for X rounds. Oh, and a thinaun weapon to kill you with while you're standing and doing nothing for those X rounds.
Two major contingencies and a rare weapon being beyond the treasure of a goblin? Sure - WBL guidelines are no longer in effect, are they?



You can gain massively overpowered things through wish, even within it's guidelines. Within the guidelines includes a Candle of Invocation, with which you can force more wishes.
Not exactly. Unlike with the inherent bonuses or spell replication, Wish never actually specifies the duration of any created magic or normal items by RAW. The DM is free to exploit that wording so created magic items and normal items only last until you try to use them.
And before anyone screams "foul", remember that this is a case where the caster had been trying to exploit RAW against game balance. The DM is naturally entitled to exploiting RAW against the caster.


Sounds like a pretty good recipee. Perticularly as if you consider WBL RAW over Guideline, you'll consider worshipers to god power RAW also. Spam Simulcrum, become a overgod, do whatever.
Worshippers, not illusory copies of worshippers. Not dominated people forced into paying lip service either.
Now, if you genuinely manage to make a major percentage of mortals over the campaign setting to worship you, you will be a god. Just for a reality check, 1% of the population of a major medieval nation -think Roman Empire- is half a million people. Leadership shenanigans aren't going to cut it either.