Why...is bloodlines so confusing?

[CyberThread]

Is the system opacity just naturally foggy or is it seem like la buyoff

[Person_Man]

Because it was published is part of Unearthed Arcana, which was a bunch of variant rules that they threw out there without play testing.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Because it was published is part of Unearthed Arcana, which was a bunch of variant rules that they threw out there without play testing.

Which when they did play test (action points, rituals, static saves, maxed skill points for chosen class skills) they put them into 4e.

I'm really surprised 4e wasn't forces under the OGL since many of the ideas are either very basic or part of unearthed arcana.

[The-Mage-King]

...They really don't seem that confusing to me, to be honest. You get a track, burn a level of XP to get a false-level, and gain the benefits when you actually have that many HD.




Maybe you should look at Welknair's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208703)? It's helped explain them a lot easier than I can.




RE: 4E

Probably because they used the main concepts, not the rules as they were. Same reason 3.5 has two Samurai classes, and who knows how many ninja classes, that are different enough to have different tiers.

[ZamielVanWeber]

His guide beautifully says everything that they intended bloodline levels to ve. I have seen some pretty far off interpretations of them though.

[Darrin]

...They really don't seem that confusing to me, to be honest. You get a track, burn a level of XP to get a false-level, and gain the benefits when you actually have that many HD.

Maybe you should look at Welknair's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208703)? It's helped explain them a lot easier than I can.


I'm still confused by the XP thing.

Let's say I have a Warblade build, and I want to still get Warblade 20 non-epic, but I also want to add a bloodline in there, say for picking up a stance a level early or something.

At Warblade 2, I have 1001 XP. I earn 2000 XP more, and am now at 3001 XP. I "pay" for the Bloodline level by spending 2000 XP. Does my XP then go back down to 1001 XP, as if maybe I did a bunch of crafting?

Or do I stay at 3001 XP, and I have to earn that 2000 XP "again" before I get my third Warblade level? As in, at 5001 XP, I become a Warblade 3, and my XP from then on is off/staggered by 2000 XP?

(This is what befuddles me most about Bloodline levels. Nobody ever gives any examples of how the XP works.)

[iceman10058]

you are still level 3, but you are just behind. it works just like it does for a wizard crafting magic junk. at least that is how i interpret it

[The-Mage-King]

Or do I stay at 3001 XP, and I have to earn that 2000 XP "again" before I get my third Warblade level? As in, at 5001 XP, I become a Warblade 3, and my XP from then on is off/staggered by 2000 XP?

(This is what befuddles me most about Bloodline levels. Nobody ever gives any examples of how the XP works.)

It's the latter, but as a DM, I'd probably rule for the former, just for simplicity.

[Darrin]

It's the latter, but as a DM, I'd probably rule for the former, just for simplicity.

You confused me again, as I'm not sure what you're referring to as the former/latter.

Let me try again. I gain 3001 XP, so I'm now a Warblade 2/Bloodline 1. After I take the Bloodline level, what is my XP now, and what do I have to earn to get Warblade 3?

[The-Mage-King]

You confused me again, as I'm not sure what you're referring to as the former/latter.

Let me try again. I gain 3001 XP, so I'm now a Warblade 2/Bloodline 1. (Or am I just a Warblade 1? Ugh, AFB.) What is my XP now, and what do I have to earn to get Warblade 3?

As the rules are, you reach 3000 Xp, and become a Warblade 2/Bloodline 1. You need to reach 5000 Xp to become a Warblade 3, 8000 to become a Warblade 4, and so on.



(If I were running it, you'd instead be a Warblade 2/Bloodline 1 with 1000 Xp, as though you had crafted a number of items. You'd need to reach 3000 Xp again to become a Warblade 3, and continue as normal.)

[Buufreak]

The way I am understanding it, they are simply levels. Kinda like Mage was explaining, except no need for this experience spending. You hit 3000, you are now class 2/bloodline 1 (unless you chose to take the XP punishment). Then at 6000, ECL 4, you are class 3/bloodline 1 or class 2/bloodline 2.

At least, that seems like the simplest and most coherent thought out of that entry.

[The-Mage-King]

The way I am understanding it, they are simply levels. Kinda like Mage was explaining, except no need for this experience spending. You hit 3000, you are now class 2/bloodline 1 (unless you chose to take the XP punishment). Then at 6000, ECL 4, you are class 3/bloodline 1 or class 2/bloodline 2.

At least, that seems like the simplest and most coherent thought out of that entry.

That's another reading, but... To be frank, that quite doesn't mesh with the following, in my eyes.


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does

Still, valid reading.

[CyberThread]

So lets have fun doing.. calculations... Major bloodline, level 20, how would the purchasing go per level?

[bekeleven]

So lets have fun doing.. calculations... Major bloodline, level 20, how would the purchasing go per level?

Buy all three levels off before hitting level 2. You lose 3000 XP and make it back (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1077406).

[Rijan_Sai]

...They really don't seem that confusing to me, to be honest. You get a track, burn a level of XP to get a false-level, and gain the benefits when you actually have that many HD.




Maybe you should look at Welknair's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208703)? It's helped explain them a lot easier than I can.




RE: 4E

Probably because they used the main concepts, not the rules as they were. Same reason 3.5 has two Samurai classes, and who knows how many ninja classes, that are different enough to have different tiers.


That's another reading, but... To be frank, that quite doesn't mesh with the following, in my eyes.



Still, valid reading.

What's interesting is that you link to that guide, then later quote the part that completely contradicts the whole premise of the guide...


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
Bolded for emphasis

This is one of the most important parts of the whole thing. Between the comma, the word "but" and the context (in the English language) it is clear that this is not LA in the traditional sense.

For example:

Let's say I have a Warblade build, and I want to still get Warblade 20 non-epic, but I also want to add a bloodline in there, say for picking up a stance a level early or something.

At Warblade 2, I have 1001 XP. I earn 2000 XP more, and am now at 3001 XP. I "pay" for the Bloodline level by spending 2000 XP. Does my XP then go back down to 1001 XP, as if maybe I did a bunch of crafting?

Or do I stay at 3001 XP, and I have to earn that 2000 XP "again" before I get my third Warblade level? As in, at 5001 XP, I become a Warblade 3, and my XP from then on is off/staggered by 2000 XP?


When you reach 3000xp, you would pay 2000xp to gain your first bloodline "level." This would mean that you are Warblade 2/Bloodline 1 with 1000xp, you would need to gain an additional 2000xp to reach Wbld 3, and (most importantly) you would currently be ECL 2. Your Initiator level would be 3, you could have 6 max ranks in class skills, (3 in CC skills,) and you would very much still be elegible to reach level 20 non-epic.
(This is why a lot of people say that you should take all three bloodline "levels" at level 1- it would "only" cost you 3000xp that way, although the rest of the party would be at level 3 at that point, with all of the class benefits that come with those levels. It seems more balanced (to me at least,) to take the levels at the "right time," before Character levels 3, 6 and 12. The xp loss would be offset fairly quickly, it would only put you a small distance behind the rest of the party, and you don't lose out so much from the early class levels.)

Remember: Character Level (AKA Effective Character Level (ECL)) is the total of your Hit Die (Both Racial HD and Class HD,) and Level Adjustment. Since bloodlines state that they do not increase character level, and specifically say that they give no HD, then they must not give LA, either. Hence, 3 Bloodline "levels" + 20 racial+class+LA levels, and no epic.