Appropriate level of Town Guards

[CrazyYanmega]

So I'm in a campaign right now. We're level six, and beginning our first major quest. We come to a town, intent on rescuing a young sorceress. The town guards stop us at the gate.

Turns out they're all level 20.

After a long argument I managed to talk him down to somewhere between level 5-10. We're still outnumbered about 4 to 1.

The DM's argument is that town guards (see: the Azure Guard) are stupid if they can't beat down wandering adventurers.

What is your take on this?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CrazyYanmega
Turns out they're all level 20.

No amount of facepalms would be adequate here. This is absurd.

The fact that you talked the DM down suggests there isn't a lot of solidity to the campaign design. Unfortunately, you may end up having a lot of conversations like that one.

.

[Mrc.]

The town guard have to be tough enough that the only thing stopping a level one thief from stealing everything he wants and killing the rest isn't the PCs. Realistically, they should be able to solve many problems by themselves, but be wary of making them a level or two under the PCs because they often just become xp that way. Should the town guard be able to fend off twice their number of goblins, maybe with a few bugbears or so? Probably yes. It won't be easy and there may well be some losses but with good leadership they should be able to weather the storm if not defeat the attackers entirely. A marauding giant? Sorry, no. There's a reason that the party get asked to help with these things: they are things that the town guard can't handle. But that's just how I run them, I can see the appeal of hyper guards.

[tyckspoon]

Guards should be of a level sufficient to protect the town from whatever its *regular* threats are. If the worst they have to worry about are Monster Manual-standard goblins, kobolds, and maybe orcs, then level 1 and 2 guards. If they're somewhere where organized bands of Giants regularly come calling, then higher level is appropriate. "Wandering adventurers" does not qualify as a regular threat, because most wandering adventurers do not want to sack your town, strip it of everything valuable, and burn down anything that looks like it might burn with a pretty color. (...well, *some* of them don't, at least.)

[Ravens_cry]

I agree that level 20 is pretty ridiculous. I think 8-10 for areas with a lot of trouble with specialists on call if things get really rough, kind of like a kind of SWAT team, makes sense. For more normal places, 5-7, and with really well behaved regions around 1-4.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ow. Just... ow.

Town guards should be leveled to deal with, well, town problems. Most would probably be in the 1-3 range, with maybe a few old hands or sergeants at 4-5. Obviously that would go up a bit in a particularly dangerous town, but I can't imagine anyone topping 6th. They're guards, after all, not adventurers.

[OldTrees1]

Town guards should be lead by captains that are 2-4 levels lower than the ruler of the town.

If the town is meant to be a challenge at your level, then the town guards are also a challenge at your level.

So
If a city is meant to be a challenge for 20th level adventurers and CR 20 outsiders, then the captains of the town guard should be 16th-21st level.


If a city is meant to be a challenge for 6th level adventurers and CR 6 monstrous humanoids, then the captains of the town guard should be 2nd-5th level.

[CrazyYanmega]

So I managed to wring out some more information: It's a mix of Salem Massachusetts and a military stronghold.

We were originally just told it was a small town that hated sorcerers.

[Ravens_cry]

@OldTrees1:
Because level scaling is awesome always and forever! Oh wait, no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D31rhjKHytg) (some NSFW language) no it is not. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=492)
Seriously, why should the guard magically level up because you do? Surely there could be a less thematically clumsy way to bring in player characters. Other adventurers or special regiments of 'cape buster' specialists would be better than magical town guard who just happen to be just high enough to pose a threat.
Furthermore, why should the ruler of the town necessarily be the highest level person? Unless it's a system where the strong rule the weak by force of arms, which is probably too anarchic for such niceties as 'town guard', they could be whatever level suits their description.

[Krobar]

I've run games well into the epic levels and never had guards like that. My city guards are usually level 3 or so, with a level 5 guy leading them, no matter how powerful the PCs are.

They're enough to take on a random party of low-level adventurers, but when it comes to higher level adventurers they generally have more resources available, like guilds and temples that have an interest in the town. My players know that noblemen LOVE to put BIG rewards on people's heads for killing their relatives in the city guard.

[HaikenEdge]

Town guards ought to be levels 1-3. The captain, maybe 2-5. Any higher than that, and they're not guards, but adventurers themselves, because, as the DMG/PHB says, most NPCs never get past 3rd level.

If your DM wants town guards to always be a challenge to the PCs, then he should DM an E6 campaign; otherwise, by mid- to late-mid-levels, town guards should be no more than a distraction and any encounters with them ought to be trivial.

If every character in the game is special, then nobody, players included, are special, and the players' story isn't one worth telling.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Town guards ought to be levels 1-3. The captain, maybe 2-5. Any higher than that, and they're not guards, but adventurers themselves, because, as the DMG/PHB says, most NPCs never get past 3rd level.

To add to this, the DMG would limit a warrior's level to 20, assuming it was a metropolis - and that's just for the highest leveled SoB there. A small town would more likely be limited to level 8.

[Skysaber]

Cost, cost, cost. Everything in running a town comes back to cost. The higher the level of the person you hire, the more they expect to get paid.

Would your party of level 20 adventurers accept a quest where the sum total of all reward they are being paid is a simple +1 sword? No. But a level one party would.

The same applies to NPCs.

A level 10 guy is hardly going to accept a post standing at a town gate with a spear when he could be making a thousand times as much elsewhere, doing something more fit to his abilities. And a town that could pay him a competitive wage for his level still isn't going to hire him because they could afford to buy golems, or other permanent defensive measures, for less than his yearly wage.

And completely apart from payroll considerations, there is the question of supply. Most decent sized town guards are a hundred or so men, and I have yet to play in any campaign world where there are a hundred 20th level fighters available for hire(1).

(1) This last is an important consideration, because for the last few years my group has been playing in NETHERIL! Where Epic is standard. But hiring that many is out of the question because anyone of that skill level already has their own interests they'd rather be pursuing, work they are interested in that actually matters to them.

No, both supply and demand dictate that you'll never find people of even moderately high level standing around on street corners with a sign, saying, "Will work for D4 copper pieces per hour."

[Flickerdart]

What is a guard? Just a peasant who got some training from a none-too-friendly sergeant, a dented helmet, and a truncheon. Anyone higher than level 1 would have been on that job a long time - consider that they usually "fight" encounters in groups, and the problems they deal with are usually on the level of a petty thief (commoner 1, CR 1/3) or maybe some rabid dogs (also CR 1/3).

Now, a guards unit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Guards) is completely distinct from your average town guard. It is an elite military unit usually charged with protecting the sovereign. These guys are sourced from the finest warriors and receive the best military training in the land - they probably start at level 6 and go up from there. If these guards are involved in anything, it's the most important thing happening in the kingdom.

[HunterOfJello]

City Guards, Craftsmen, Hired Guards, Nobles, Cultists, and Thieves are all statted out in Cityscape. It's one of my favorite books since it has several pages worth of premade human characters.

City Guard Veterans are statted out as level 10 Warriors. (They also walk around with some pretty expensive bling for being a city guard!) City Guard Soldiers are Warrior 5 and City Guard Recruits are Warrior 1.

Hired Guards have levels in Fighter, which would make them significantly more dangerous.

If you're in a world where NPCs often don't have NPC classes then you could upgrade Warrior to Fighter and Fighter to any T4+ melee class.

[Seerow]

Ow. Just... ow.

Town guards should be leveled to deal with, well, town problems. Most would probably be in the 1-3 range, with maybe a few old hands or sergeants at 4-5. Obviously that would go up a bit in a particularly dangerous town, but I can't imagine anyone topping 6th. They're guards, after all, not adventurers.

Pretty much this. Typical guards are level 1 Warriors. More experienced ones are 2-4. Average leaders are 0-1 levels higher than their highest followers with a PC class. More important leaders are level 6 with a PC class.

But then again I've been playing a lot of E6 lately, and we completely ignore the population statistics indicated in the DMG (which give you a surprisingly high number of high level characters in an average town). But even in a normal game following those population statistics you're not going to have an entire town guard of 20th level characters. And even in a major metropolis a whole town guard of 10th level is stretching credibility.



If a city is meant to be a challenge for 20th level adventurers and CR 20 outsiders, then the captains of the town guard should be 16th-21st level.


If a city is meant to be a challenge for 6th level adventurers and CR 6 monstrous humanoids, then the captains of the town guard should be 2nd-5th level.

Why are you designing a city as a challenge, is my question.



The town guard have to be tough enough that the only thing stopping a level one thief from stealing everything he wants and killing the rest isn't the PCs.

Level 1-2 guards can easily handle level one experts and even keep rogues wary enough to not do anything too crazy.


Realistically, they should be able to solve many problems by themselves, but be wary of making them a level or two under the PCs because they often just become xp that way.

If in your game having guards low enough level to be killable without too much trouble translates to your players deciding to kill them all just for xp, you have much deeper problems in your game.

[BWR]

Ah, this reminds of the time we met a 36th level fighter when escaping some city guards.
He worked asa random cook in a random building we ducked into. At 13 we didn't buy it when the DM tried to pull that, for all the reasons stated above. Average ity guards are, as others have said, levels 1-3 (3 being very experienced and well-trained guards). Officer types are often a level or two higher, and really bg cities might even have a bunch of 7-9th level people on call for special problems. They won't be guarding the gate, they will be kicking back at HQ or at home or wherever, waiting for the call, being paid obscene amounts (by guard standards) to fix it if something happens.

[OldTrees1]

@OldTrees1:
Because level scaling is awesome always and forever! Oh wait, no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D31rhjKHytg) (some NSFW language) no it is not. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=492)
Seriously, why should the guard magically level up because you do?

When did I say they should? In fact, I implied they shouldn't by linking it to CRs the city encounters. I said town guards should be a relevant threat when the town is a relevant challenge. 1st level PCs should not dare to take on the town guards of Hell's Gate. 20th level PCs should not waste their time with the town guards of Middle of Nowhere.


Furthermore, why should the ruler of the town necessarily be the highest level person? Unless it's a system where the strong rule the weak by force of arms, which is probably too anarchic for such niceties as 'town guard', they could be whatever level suits their description.
I never said the ruler was the highest level person. I said the minions of the ruler should be lower level than the ruler since normally a minion is lower level than a master. Especially in most medieval fantasy worlds.


Why are you designing a city as a challenge, is my question.
Not designing it as a challenge, evaluating if it is worth stating as a challenge vs telling the PCs they autosucceed.

There are several challenges that pit the party against a city. If the city is a reasonable challenge then you stat out the guards. If the city is much lower level then you tell the party they succeeded. If the city is much higher level (Sigil for instance) then your warn the players before letting them attempt their folly.
The Rogue wants to start a thieves guild.
The party wants to rescue a Prisoner.
The party wants to take over the government/overthrow a tyranny.
...

[Seerow]

Not designing it as a challenge, evaluating if it is worth stating as a challenge vs telling the PCs they autosucceed.

There are several challenges that pit the party against a city. If the city is a reasonable challenge then you stat out the guards. If the city is much lower level then you tell the party they succeeded. If the city is much higher level (Sigil for instance) then your warn the players before letting them attempt their folly.
The Rogue wants to start a thieves guild.
The party wants to rescue a Prisoner.
The party wants to take over the government/overthrow a tyranny.
...

Eh I just tend to consider it the other way around. The city is there. It's a part of the world. You don't have high level and low level cities. You do have bigger cities, which tend to attract higher level people (due to easier access to those hard to acquire and expensive magical goodies).

Also, of the three examples you gave, starting a thieves guild is the only one I'd really consider a "city" challenge. Dealing with the government is something you typically want to do without involving the city (or at least setting against it against you) even if you are strong enough to burn the city to the ground singelhandedly. Rescuing a prisoner is going to deal more with the defenses of the prison than the city as a whole.




Anyway, I just spent some time double checking the DMG population chart. In case anyone's curious in the spoiler below is the average population spread for a metropolis with 50,000 people (ie double the minimimum size)


Barbarian: 14th level, 2x 7th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Bard: 13th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Cleric: 13th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Druid: 13th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Fighter: 16th level, 2x 8th level, 4x 4th level, 8x 2nd level, 16x 1st level
Monk: 12th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Paladin: 12th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Ranger: 12th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Rogue: 14th level, 2x 7th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Sorcerer: 12th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level
Wizard: 12th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 8x 1st level

Adept: 13th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 249 1st level
Aristocrat: 12th level, 2x 6th level, 4x 3rd level, 249 1st level
Expert: 19th level, 2x 9th level, 4x 4th level, 8x 2nd level, 1494 1st level
Warrior: 17th level, 2x 8th level, 4x 4th level, 8x 2nd level, 2,490 1st level
Commoner: 22nd level, 2x 11th level, 4x 5th level, 8x 2nd level, 45,322 1st level

Yes that's an epic level commoner. Don't ask me, I didn't write the rules. I told you I ignore them!

But in total, there's about 18 people in a giant city over level 10, and 3 of those are commoners. Besides commoner it's one of every class, and chances are they are not all working together for the city guard.

[Urpriest]

At high levels, the city guards that you might fight will indeed be of high CR...but that's because they'll be Fire Giants or Pit Fiends or the like. You aren't going to bother with fighting the city guards in some random human city, because doing so isn't the sort of story you tell at that level.

Edit: Similarly, a city with an irrational beef against a class probably doesn't have many high level characters or much military competence.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, that's not really a city guard as people usually think of it. You're not in Ankh Morpork any more, Toto.

[NoACWarrior]

Well you could always just leave the guards at lvl 20 and then... (Baldur's gate style) kill all lvl 20 guards you see for their stuff and XP (at high levels of course).

But all that kidding aside, guards can be a few levels in warrior or what not up to level 10 or so, with captains using DMPC levels. Making the guards higher level than the PCs makes the party wonder why they are doing something when the guards could do it.

[OldTrees1]

Eh I just tend to consider it the other way around. The city is there. It's a part of the world. You don't have high level and low level cities. You do have bigger cities, which tend to attract higher level people (due to easier access to those hard to acquire and expensive magical goodies)
Yes the city is designed first.
I consider a LG city that survives next to an open gate to Hell to necessitate high level guards. Although you are correct that wealthy cities also attract high level people.


Well, that's not really a city guard as people usually think of it. You're not in Ankh Morpork any more, Toto.

Well yeah. If you stay at a city like Ankh Morpork, then the city guards are going to be low level (but lucky IIRC). However not all cities have it as easy as Ankh Morpork.

[Urpriest]

Yes the city is designed first.
I consider a LG city that survives next to an open gate to Hell to necessitate high level guards.


Maybe? I think it's more likely that such a city defends itself with powerful magic and outsider aid, and maybe a select band of adventurers. I don't think a bunch of high level footsoldiers would really help a whole bunch.

[Flickerdart]

Yes the city is designed first.
I consider a LG city that survives next to an open gate to Hell to necessitate high level guards. Although you are correct that wealthy cities also attract high level people.

A city next to a portal to hell would pretty much immediately kill off everyone who's low level and scare away everyone who survived - a force of town guards is going to accomplish exactly nothing against creatures that can teleport and use powerful magic. The only people living in that kind of city would be powerful enough to fend for themselves.



Well yeah. If you stay at a city like Ankh Morpork, then the city guards are going to be low level (but lucky IIRC). However not all cities have it as easy as Ankh Morpork.
No, he means the opposite - only in a weird town like Ankh Morpork will the watch be made out of fire giants and pit fiends.

[Urpriest]

No, he means the opposite - only in a weird town like Ankh Morpork will the watch be made out of fire giants and pit fiends.

Oh, I had totally misinterpreted that too.

In that case: Fire Giant cities would presumably have Fire Giant city guards, and Malsheem explicitly has Pit Fiend city guards IIRC. If you're high level and fighting city guards you're doing it because you're trying to sneak in to some fantastical city of powerful beings. Otherwise, you bypass the city guards and do the interesting stuff inside the city.

[OldTrees1]

No, he means the opposite - only in a weird town like Ankh Morpork will the watch be made out of fire giants and pit fiends.

Weird. He put Ankh Morpork in the place Kansas used to fill. Also Ankh Morpork has low level (but lucky IIRC) guards.

[Averis Vol]

I think the highest city guard in my world is level 9. He's an ex navy captain who has a fierce loyalty to the crown. The next closest is the chief detective of one of the northern nations, who's a level 4 factotum with maneuvers instead of spells, and he's the sherlock holmes of that country. As for the norm though, city guards are level two (they're in a fairly dangerous area) with commanders being level 3 with one PC class level. Anything else seemed a bit extreme; the wrost these guys have to deal with is pirates, and while threatening, they aren't going to burn the surrounding kingdoms to the ground.

The kings royal guard, on the other hand, are an elite class of warriors and advisors hand picked from all throughout the world. they run the gamut up near level twelves or thirteen (but they're on a royal paycheck)

[Alefiend]

What is a guard? Just a peasant who got some training from a none-too-friendly sergeant, a dented helmet, and a truncheon.

This is not necessarily true. Many of them were adventurers until they took an arrow to the knee. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness though, in a fantasy environment, it's entirely reasonable for some of them to in fact be retired adventurers. Smaller towns would have them as captains; larger cities might have quite a lot of regulars who decided a steady paycheck and a home were better than glory and becoming dragon chow.

I won't even get into the discussion about how "town guards" as a separate standing force that did anything of note is mostly fiction anyway.

[veti]

What is your take on this?

Why on earth are you thinking about fighting the town guards anyway? Nobody fights town guards. You just walk past them. If they're hyper-security sensitive, you might have to do some talking, but that's about it.

Possible exceptions would be (1) if the city's under seige, but I presume you'd have mentioned that; (2) if they're angling for a bribe; or (3) if they've been specifically briefed to look out for you guys, but in practice that probably falls into the same category as (2), and has the same solution set.

But fighting? Bad idea, and if you start, you'll find "4 to 1" doesn't begin to account for it - the real ratio is probably closer to 40-to-1.

Having said that - yes, your DM is crazy. But so are you.

[CrazyYanmega]

Why on earth are you thinking about fighting the town guards anyway? Nobody fights town guards. You just walk past them. If they're hyper-security sensitive, you might have to do some talking, but that's about it.

Possible exceptions would be (1) if the city's under seige, but I presume you'd have mentioned that; (2) if they're angling for a bribe; or (3) if they've been specifically briefed to look out for you guys, but in practice that probably falls into the same category as (2), and has the same solution set.

But fighting? Bad idea, and if you start, you'll find "4 to 1" doesn't begin to account for it - the real ratio is probably closer to 40-to-1.

Having said that - yes, your DM is crazy. But so are you.

Look at my user name.

Anyway, it WAS my fault. I'm playing a Warblade3/Knight2/Shield Guardian1 and I've been playing him somewhat hammy. "WE ARE HERE TO RESCUE A YOUNG MAIDEN WHOM HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO DEATH FOR HER MAGIC. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?"

[dantiesilva]

For my town guard I normally make them level 5 warriors, with a level 3 Fighter(Or ranger depending on area)/2 Marshal for their immediate superior. Now the leader of all the guards being around level 8-10 I can see, but 20 thats insane.

[(Un)Inspired]

I honestly think you should work hard to talk you DM into cranking them back up to level 20. Seriously

Now have your party's low level Wizard and cleric decimate all of them.

Now enslave the population of this backwater superstitious town and find a salt mine to make them work the rest of their lives in.

You gotta teach your DM that his style of railroading through higher level npcs doing plot enforcement is sophomoric.

[OldTrees1]

I honestly think you should work hard to talk you DM into cranking them back up to level 20. Seriously

Now have your party's low level Wizard and cleric decimate all of them.

Now enslave the population of this backwater superstitious town and find a salt mine to make them work the rest of their lives in.

You gotta teach your DM that his style of railroading through higher level npcs doing plot enforcement is sophomoric.

And the best way to do that is by behaving like a spiteful child.

[(Un)Inspired]

And the best way to do that is by behaving like a spiteful child.

Exactly! The power of spite transcends all barriers.

[Segev]

Exactly! The power of spite transcends all barriers.

Spite(tm)! Obey your thirst...for VENGEANCE.

[JaronK]

It really depends on the game, but in general if the guards are better than the adventurers, why are they just sitting around guarding? They could make a fortune adventuring!

In standard D&D, you can use the demographics in the DMG to figure out available troops. The guards there would probably be in the level 3-6 range, and they're not all just Fighters. Some should be Experts (those make good observers and investigators). Some should likely be Urban Rangers (they're great investigators). Some might be Marshals or even Swashbucklers.

In my games, guards are generally at or above the level of the PCs, but they're not optimized and are often NPC classes (Warriors and Experts) or Tier 5 classes (Fighters and Marshals). They use teamwork feats and teamwork benefits to be effective in groups, but aren't that great when they're not in groups. It makes sense for them to be guards, as they're good on their home turf but not amazing outside of it.

JaronK

[Alefiend]

Spite(tm)! Obey your thirst...for VENGEANCE.

Segev wins the Internet. We may close this topic now.

[OldTrees1]

Exactly! The power of spite transcends all barriers.

But in resorting to spite in order to communicate we
1) Reduce the maturity in the room
2) Promote others to similarly reduce the maturity in the room
3) Harm ourselves
4) Promote others to harm themselves

I count 4 bad things (2 of which are recursive) to the 1 good thing.
Let's leave spite where it belongs (discarded and forgotten).

[JaronK]

DMs who do this do create problems though. What if I have a Wizard who can cast Animate Dread Warrior? Thanks for all the level 20 minions!

Guards should be good at guarding because they're professionals. They retreat when attacked and come back in greater numbers. They use murder holes from the gates to attack enemies. If necessary, they call in serious reinforcements. Even level 6 guards can be scary at level 10 if they act smart.

JaronK

[HaikenEdge]

Spite(tm)! Obey your thirst...for VENGEANCE.

Would love to use this in my sig, so I'm asking for permission.

[Segev]

Would love to use this in my sig, so I'm asking for permission.

Feel free! Hope you enjoy it. ^_^

[(Un)Inspired]

Would you mind if I put it in my dog as well? I just tried to check this thread surreptitiously on phone in class and ended up failing to suppress a violent chortle earning a savage medusa gaze from my Professor.

[Segev]

Would you mind if I put it in my dog as well? I just tried to check this thread surreptitiously on phone in class and ended up failing to suppress a violent chortle earning a savage medusa gaze from my Professor.

If you mean in your sig, sure. I'm not sure filling your dog full of Spite(tm) would be the best move.

[Seerow]

If you mean in your sig, sure. I'm not sure filling your dog full of Spite(tm) would be the best move.

It's like rabies, but better!

[(Un)Inspired]

Well I meant to type sig, not too sure how dog got in there...

But I guess I've gotta get a dog now.

[BWR]

The DM's argument is that town guards (see: the Azure Guard) are stupid if they can't beat down wandering adventurers.


If you still have a problem convincing him, try it like this - your average city guard is like the police or a rentacop - your average adventurer, after level 3 or so, is more like the Special force (SAS, Spetsnaz,whatever). Better trained, more experience, better gear, usually more ruthless.