The Z Team: Tier 5 Gestalt

[Rakaydos]

The absolute best of the worst. I want to see builds that only use Tier 5 (or 6) classes (ACFs may be accepted if they dont themselves raise tier) and -1 (or-2) Prestige classes.

Given a party of 6 of these characters, I would like to see the best they can do against a team of single classed Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. I expect the results to be hilarious.

[Gnaeus]

I'm going to say it will do pretty badly after about level 7-10. Considering that we have seen that a Gestalt of ALL tier 4 and below classes is only competitive with Tier 1s, I doubt a party of T5s and 6s will be remotely competitive. They can probably win fights at low levels, where combos like fighter//ninja (buffed by half a dozen auras) can put out decent damage. But even at low levels, will probably be way below the casters in utility. By level 7, probably not much contest. About the best they can do is try to abuse exalted spells with healer//class other.

[Urpriest]

Paladin // Healer is pretty cool.

[Rakaydos]

Is Fighter//Expert optimizable enough?

[Telonius]

How about:

(Something ... Monk, Fighter, Paladin?)/Apostle of Peace // Knight

Build it like St. Bertold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13666019&postcount=4), but using only the lower tiers.
Apostle of Peace's spell list encompasses most of Healer's (including Gate), so you're not losing much for casting. Knight gets you good hitpoints and full BAB. Since it's Gestalted, you don't actually lose out on the Knight's Challenge DC like a regular St. Bertold would.

[Rakaydos]

How about:

(Something ... Monk, Fighter, Paladin?)/Apostle of Peace // Knight

Build it like St. Bertold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13666019&postcount=4), but using only the lower tiers.
Apostle of Peace's spell list encompasses most of Healer's (including Gate), so you're not losing much for casting. Knight gets you good hitpoints and full BAB. Since it's Gestalted, you don't actually lose out on the Knight's Challenge DC like a regular St. Bertold would.

Wow. Expert looks to be the best choice for that- Concentration as a class skill, and the Knight makes up for BAB and HP. And Use magic Device gives you Wands of Summon monster, if you really need to do damage.

[Seerow]

Okay so I started out detailing a single build, wound up going for a whole party of 4. Each one is a relatively rough sketch, but with enough detail that it could be fleshed out pretty easily. Spoiler Blocking each one separately, will provide a tl;dr version at the end.



I feel like a Swashbuckler/Ninja would be workable. The main drawback is the Ninja has that Wisdom focus. With a little houseruling you could get Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius to apply to the Ninja, which would help a ton, but even without that you have good Int/Dex synergy, and with some optimization through your feats your damage can be downright scary compared to the others lounging in Tier 5.

Use Daring Outlaw + Martial Study(whatever) + Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance) to grab a full sneak attack progression on top of your Sudden Strike progression for 22d6 precision damage. Add another flat +20 to that via Craven if you want. You already have int to damage, and assassin stance, so you may as well blow an extra feat for dex to damage (Shadow Blade) as well. You have a full BAB and if you go human you still have 3 feats left over after all that to pick up Two Weapon Fighting wherever you can squeeze it in. (Probably want TWFing early, grab ITWFing through the gloves, and just skip GTWFing and use your last two feats on whatever strikes your fancy. You have two left, ideally one of those is one of the feats to convert your Wis features to AC, but if that's not allowed there's plenty of decent options.)



I'll also second the Paladin//Healer. Play as an Illumian to switch all of your bonus spell slots from Wisdom to Strength, and pull in as many tricks from the A-Game Paladin as you can without jumping a Tier. Luckily the best things, like Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing, Smite to Song, Song of Valor, Words of Creation, aren't ACFs. So even if ACFs can't be taken at all, you're giving up a few Paladin spells per day, inspire greatness, and the Divine Spirit features. It's a blow, but you're still a pretty awesome buffer, a competent frontliner, and now have full 9th level spells for healing. And since you're a Paladin anyway, may as well pull in the Sanctified spells for your healer, helping to make up a lot of deficiencies there.


Fighter//Knight you can use going with the standard Fighter tricks. No Dungeoncrasher or Zhentarim, sadly, but you can still take advantage of battlefield control with Knockback (assuming a large race. Go with Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre probably), Knockdown, Improved Trip, Standstill, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Rebuke+Thicket of Blades, Evasive Reflexes. With your non-fighter feats grab all of those silly feats that boost your melee reach. You should be able to pull together a level 20 build threatening at least 40-50ft, making everyone within that area provoke from just about anything they do, and when they provoke get your choice of attacking them (and thus getting to attack and either trip or knockback, or both) or shift around the battlefield (Evasive Reflexes is pretty awesome for tactical repositioning. Though admittedly probably less necessary once you threaten a 40-50ft area). You might even have room after the stuff I mentioned (I'll admit, I didn't count feats for this one) to pick up the feats to be a mini uber-charger (Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack), the Shock Trooper even helps you with your repositioning capability.

Knight adds a few useful features that are much easier to take advantage of with all the bonus feats. Taunting enemies, boosted survivability, turn your massive threatened area into difficult terrain. It takes your Lockdown and elevates it to another level.



For the last one, probably want to go Soulborn//Monk (I've been trying to avoid doubling up on classes). Soulborn wasn't listed on the official tier listing I was looking at, but I'm pretty sure it falls squarely in Tier 5. Here, it gives the Monk access to a handful of Soulmelds and Full BAB.

You also gain access to Smite Opposition, but since you will probably be dumping Charisma you want to find another way to utilize this. You can use the Paladin's trick to convert your Smites into Inspire Courage (Note: Smite to Song requires Smite Evil. Technically the Soulborn smites their opposite alignment, so it could be ruled this doesn't work. I'm assuming being a Good Soulborn = Smiting Evil = Fine.

Go with a Silverbrow Human for race, you'll be picking up a lot of the same inspire courage optimizing feats the Paladin did, plus Dragonfire Inspiration, so while your Paladin buddy is providing the whole group +10-12 to hit and damage, you provide them all +10-12d6 Sonic Damage. Use your handful of Soulmelds to cover any major gaps you have, and use your monk features to punch stuff in the face and make it hurt. I'm reasonably sure you can use your Soulmelds (or soulmelds gained off other lists via your bonus incarna feats) to gain access to Pounce, Flight, Dimension Door, and other such necessities that boost the Monk's contributions dramatically.


So didn't want to read all that text in the spoiler blocks?
Basically we have a Swashbuckler twinked out to take Daring Outlaw and Shadow Blade, plus the Sudden Strike from Ninja, for awesome TWFing damage and good skills.

Next we have a Paladin with Healer who doesn't care about Wis (only wants 13 base, to get 19 with a booster by level 17), and is turning all of his Smites into twinked Inspire Courages, giving the whole team (all of whom are martial types. This is a tier 5 group) +12 to hit and damage.

Following this up we have a Fighter//Knight using the Knight's features combined with all of the usual feat suspects to lock down huge areas in a way that even higher tier non-full casters find hard. (The lack of dungeoncrasher is sorely felt though!)

Finally we have a Monk//Soulborn who is using the Paladin's trick to use his Smites to power Inspire Courage, except he goes the Dragonfire Inspiration Route, blowing a couple extra feats to give the whole group +12d6 damage. He uses his Soulborn incarna melds to improve mobility and utility, and between that, full BAB, and both sets of Inspire Courage buffing, pounces around punching people in the face for tons of damage with his flurrying.



How it all comes together:

The whole group is proficient with most weapons and has full BAB, so if ranged is an issue, they can pull out bows, and have enough buffing that even the non-dex users can hit pretty accurately and hard. In melee, they're going to dominate just about anything they come across. Against things with alternate mobility types, the Monk//Soulborn can keep up, and the Paladin probably can too. The other two need to spend some wealth in covering that.

For out of combat, the Paladin has Wizard spells up to 4th level, and a decent number of them per day (nothing outstanding, but decent). He also has full 9th level Healer casting with sanctified spells. The Ninja has great skills (an int focus and 6 base per level with a decent list). They're the utility backbone of the group, the Fighter//Knight is useless outside of a fight, and the Monk//Soulborn might have 1 or 2 utility soulmelds, likely tailored to fit the needs of the group. Unfortunately nobody has UMD as a class skill, or a particular desire for high charisma, so UMD shenanigans to punch upwards are out.

The party will likely fail against any optimized tier 1-2s, but I'd say they are competitive with optimized tier 4s, with a couple of them breaking into the Tier 3 range.

[JaronK]

How about a Targeteer Variant Fighter//Monk? That gives you incredible run speed and solid archery. Just run around shooting people, and if they don't chase you then full attack for serious damage. Targeteer Fighter//Ninja isn't bad either for another version of the same trick.

JaronK

[Nightraiderx]

A soulknife/soulborn would be something amusing. The power of soul!

weapons and gear made of soul power some psionic/incarnum cross over feats (especially one for the blade itself)
using the soulknife ACF for more feats.

Another fun combination Rokugan Ninja/Swashbuckler. A flavorful dex/int combination and rokugan ninja's sneak attack will set up swashbuckler for twice the sneak attack damage. you get alot of dodge to work with.

[Seerow]

Is Rokugan Ninja actually 3.X legal? It's not in OA, I assumed it was 3rd party.


Edit: Just googled and found it. Looks like it's worse than the CW Ninja anyway. It does get a nice move speed bonus and Sneak Attack instead of Sudden Strike, but I think the ki abilities from CW ninja plus extra skill points make up that difference.

[Nightraiderx]

true, I tend to like fighter/ninja the best for the increased ki pool and extra feats for the combat form feats.

[T.G. Oskar]

Call me weird, but I actually like the idea of a Paladin 20||Knight 20.

The two classes synergize oddly well, even if they're mostly similar in execution. The build would be still MAD, but you'd get far more Charisma synergy than before, and an actually GOOD Will save (the d12 HD is a nice touch, though not strictly necessary), plus oddly combining effects.

Take, for example, the Knight's free Mounted Combat at 2nd level with the Paladin's special mount. You're saving a feat on something the Paladin will probably get because it's one of its best features, and if you need Ride-By Attack or Spirited Charge, you can get it with one of the Knight's free feats. Or, even if it's extremely far away, Divine Grace + good Fort + Impetuous Endurance; just adding Mettle would make you immune to anything with Fortitude saves. Call to Battle + Aura of Courage synergize well, since it effectively extends your immunity to fear by granting them a decent save, and a second chance with an even LARGER save (your Charisma modifier +4). If you intend to make the Paladin a tripper, Bulwark of Defense + Vigilant Defender help with that. Knight gets Intimidate, so you can spend levels on it, plus Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, plus Divine Presence to further boost your already great Intimidate bonus to go from fine to Cowering in one round, and then to Frightened in subsequent rounds. Test of Mettle helps you pull opponents, which is actually great with the Paladin's particular survivability. Finally, Fighting Challenge works sorta like Inspire Courage (minus the ability to get a huge bonus, tho) for the Paladin, which allows it to add more damage; then again, with From Smite to Song, you're doing better, so you can save your Knight's Challenges for other stuff.

Granted: it won't make the combination reach Tier 3, but at least it raises the build up a tier, because it solves many of the Paladin's inherent problems (feat starvation, lack of meaningful class features after 6th level, inability to keep the attention of opponents) and provides the Knight with decent spell support. That said, it's at least a good start.

Regarding Pally||Healer: the Paladin requires wearing heavy armor, and most good armor is metal-based, which conflicts with the Healer. Even if you could solve that, the Healer's list isn't exactly the greatest, save for early Mass Cure Wounds, early Heal/Mass Heal and Gate, so your whole weight would be contained within the Paladin's spellcasting (particularly with Sword of the Arcane Order). The Healer's class features aren't exactly that great, either, so you're basically tacking on Healer for good Will saves, a Companion to follow your Mount (or to replace it), and Gate as a 9th level spell. I feel that Knight adds more than the Healer would.

Monk||Ninja is as interesting as Pally||Knight: you get lots of survivability on one side, and some decent ways to add damage on another. You get good bonus feats, a d8 Hit Die, full Sudden Strike damage, more Wis support (for Ki, of course) and a veritable bunch of class features. Basically, the Ninja adds the Monk some much-needed damage potential (even if it's based on denying the target's Dexterity bonus to AC), whereas the Monk adds the Ninja much-needed survivability. Again, nothing near as spectacular as what you'd get from Tier 4 classes, and definitely much less than what you'd get from Pally||Knight.

Paladin||Soulborn would be, quite frankly, hilarious. You get two versions of smite, less reliance on magic items (because of the soulmelds) and spells that can be used to boost your spellcasting, alongside a few free feats; however, you get horrible overlap, as both forms of Smite affect the same target and you get two ways to become immune to fear (on the other hand, you can just plain ignore Aura of Courage and go straight for the immunity on the other side). Get a way to apply Thunderstep Boots to your mount and see how Ubercharger adds even MORE damage than before.

Yet, that's as good as it gets: Seerow's suggestions are pretty good, which shows just how good Knight works to provide support in Gestalt (Lockdown Fighter becomes twice as good, Paladin gets more mileage out of its Charisma), but nowhere near the ability to beat a Tier 1 any time soon. Knight is the only class that gets somewhat reliable action economy effects (most of the Knight's Challenges are swift actions, and the lockdown-related abilities apply automatically; that said, you don't get more swift actions per round as a RKV would), which adds to its benefit, and why it synergizes well with Fighter or Paladin, so they'd be the best survivors. Monk||Ninja would be a close second if you know what you're doing, and it makes for a decent scout in a pinch (heavy survivability + decent damage + a variety of methods to escape + trapfinding), particularly the nice combination at 19th level (Empty Body + Ghost Strike = attack while being incorporeal).

Really: a Gestalt between both classes won't do well unless you introduce ACFs into the fray. For example: a Monk that sacrifices Evasion and Imp. Evasion for Invisible Fist superpowers Sudden Strike, particularly if you can set up a Flurry because you deny the target's Dex modifier to AC and get as many hits as possible before Empty Body even comes online, and also saves you a lot of Ki. A Paladin that sacrifices Remove Disease loses nothing when it turns into a Healer, because it recovers it as a normal spell; likewise, a Zhentarim Fighter||Knight becomes even better than Takahashi on intimidating opponents, with Swift Demoralization coupled with Imp. Command and Never Outnumbered, but with actual class features on top; on the other hand, just like with the Paladin||Knight, you can demoralize with a Standard action and force a Daunting Challenge with your swift, requiring only a third form of fear effect to lock them (and with a Lockdown build on top, you're fearsome until you find people immune to fear AND bigger then you are).

A note on Expert: the one thing that makes Expert a good Gestalt partner is its free choice of skills coupled with its large amount of skill points. Namely, this allows any class to catch UMD and Iaijutsu Focus and make something out of it. Oddly enough, most classes save for Healer and Monk will get a good Will save out of it. Other than that, you get nothing different, so it all depends on how strong you consider those two skills are, and what else you can stretch out of the skill system (Diplomancer? Forgery for shots and goggles?)

[Nightraiderx]

paladin//knight is also amusing because you can take advantage of divine shield, shield block and ilindl school (trade shield bonus for bonus to attack with a light weapon.) while mounted with an altered lance for a higher chance to hit. you can take the dynamic priest feat and reduce your mad a bit.

[Krazzman]

Go with a Silverbrow Human for race, plus Dragonfire Inspiration, +10-12d6 Sonic Damage.

Shouldn't that be Ice Damage since Silverbrow Humans are descendants from silver dragons?
Or did I missread the Dragonfire Inspiration Feat?

[Seerow]

Shouldn't that be Ice Damage since Silverbrow Humans are descendants from silver dragons?
Or did I missread the Dragonfire Inspiration Feat?

I'm pretty sure there's another feat that will let you change that type. But I'll admit it's not something I put a ton of time into researching, if I'm wrong, it's cold damage. More easily resisted, but still impressive.


Regarding Pally||Healer: the Paladin requires wearing heavy armor, and most good armor is metal-based, which conflicts with the Healer. Even if you could solve that, the Healer's list isn't exactly the greatest, save for early Mass Cure Wounds, early Heal/Mass Heal and Gate, so your whole weight would be contained within the Paladin's spellcasting (particularly with Sword of the Arcane Order). The Healer's class features aren't exactly that great, either, so you're basically tacking on Healer for good Will saves, a Companion to follow your Mount (or to replace it), and Gate as a 9th level spell. I feel that Knight adds more than the Healer would.


In defense of the healer: There's several special materials that are relatively cheap to take care of the metal problem. At low levels you have to choose between your heavy armor and healer casting, but by the time you can afford +1 full plate reasonably, you should be able to get it. It's not like as a Paladin/Healer you were going to have the dex to take advantage of Mithral anyway.

Also the healer makes pretty good use of Sanctified spells, and is a standout as the only Tier 5 capable of doing so. It's been a while since I've looked at them, but I'm pretty sure they provide a fair bit of utility that while a real tier 1 doesn't care too much either way about, makes a huge difference for a Tier 5 party.

But yeah, the companion is kind of useless. It does free you up to replace your mount via ACFs if that's allowed, but I have no idea what ACFs change a tier. The only two I know of that replace mount offhand are Divine Spirit and Charging Smite. The first is awesome, the second is useless if you're using smites for inspire courage instead.

[T.G. Oskar]

In defense of the healer: There's several special materials that are relatively cheap to take care of the metal problem. At low levels you have to choose between your heavy armor and healer casting, but by the time you can afford +1 full plate reasonably, you should be able to get it. It's not like as a Paladin/Healer you were going to have the dex to take advantage of Mithral anyway.

Dragonhide takes twice the cost of a masterwork version of the armor, so that means the cost of a Dragonhide Breastplate or Dragonhide Splint Mail (the best Medium armor and the worst Core Heavy armor, respectively) would cost about a hundred GP more than a mundane Half-Plate. Full Plate is definitely out of your league, because that'd be 3,350 gp, without enchantments added in. Ironwood is a 6th level Druid spell and lasts only for one day per caster level, so it's too far to be useful and lasts for too little. IIRC, Chitin can't be fashioned into full plate; then again, there's so many variants of Chitin that it's hard to remember where it actually applies.

I wasn't even thinking of Mithral, though. If it weren't because it's just too darn expensive, an Adamantine Full Plate would be decent for those early levels, where damage reduction is hard to find. By mid-level, a Full Plate of Invulnerability works pretty well, and for latter levels...well, both the Paladin and the Healer get Greater Luminous Armor which makes the question a non-issue.


Also the healer makes pretty good use of Sanctified spells, and is a standout as the only Tier 5 capable of doing so. It's been a while since I've looked at them, but I'm pretty sure they provide a fair bit of utility that while a real tier 1 doesn't care too much either way about, makes a huge difference for a Tier 5 party.

That's basically saying that, aside from the spells I mentioned, the Healer spell list isn't exactly good. Paladins ALSO get Sanctified spells because they can prepare them, but they actually get useful spells. If, say, Empyreal Ecstasy or Sublime Revelry were Sanctified spells, then that'd be a low blow for the Pally; if they were Healer spells, then that'd be a big win for them (both are Abjuration, BTW). Of the spells Paladins can't access (levels 5 to 9): Armageddon (and Cry of Ysgard) is much like Gate, except you summon a variety of minor good creatures rather than a Solar (Gate does this much better); Phoenix Fire is just plain bizarre (and has the fire element, so there goes its potential benefit); Constricting Chains are like Web but five levels late and deal minimal nonlethal damage; Exalted Raiment is too ambiguous (does it work like Magic Vestment or does it replace your armor?); I don't even need to mention what Sanctify the Wicked does. I'll concede Curtain of Light (like Wall of Fire, but good!), Rain of Embers (damage over time effect that deals equivalent damage to a Flame Strike every round, including its half-divine irresistible damage), and maybe Dragon Cloud (it's a pretty cool calling spell). The only spell above 4th level in Champions of Valor is Benign Projection, and it's basically a variant of Project Image, so it depends on a skilled caster to use effectively (and the spells you can cast upon are limited, though it contains the entire Healer spell list, curiously enough).

But, again: Sanctified spells from 1st to 4th level are not exclusive to the Healer, and the reason why the Healer uses them better is because of its CL and its lack of competition from other spells (specifically 4th level, because that's when Paladins get their best spells). Even then, I'd say Paladins do 3rd level Sanctified spells just as well as Healers would. So I really don't consider Sanctified spellcasting as a reason I'd choose Healer over another class, such as Fighter or Knight, when the Paladin has that insane feat starvation problem.

However, it makes for a decent pseudo-Cleric on a pinch. Perhaps it's the way it's organized; had you mentioned it Healer||Paladin (where you're playing primarily as a Healer, but adding the full BAB, access to heavy armor and defenses of the Paladin to the mix to become closer to a melee Cleric), perhaps it'd have made more sense. However, your focus was mostly into the way of "Paladin with all Sanctified spells and some full spellcasting on top", which really hinders its usefulness, compared to Paladin||Fighter or Paladin||Knight (or even Paladin||Monk, if you could somehow justify adding Ascetic Knight into it...)


But yeah, the companion is kind of useless. It does free you up to replace your mount via ACFs if that's allowed, but I have no idea what ACFs change a tier. The only two I know of that replace mount offhand are Divine Spirit and Charging Smite. The first is awesome, the second is useless if you're using smites for inspire courage instead.

The A-Game Paladin uses Divine Spirit, for good measure. Charging Smite is great if you're aiming for a build where you have to maximize your damage potential and you're gaining enough of your Smite to make it matter; otherwise, the mount or Divine Spirit are the way to go. If you're underground, Underdark Knight is pretty awesome as well: you get only one use of Spike Stones, but you end up getting Dimension Door five times per day, and you get permanent earth gliding, exactly as the Xorn's method of movement. There's also Stand Fast, from the Cityscape web enhancement, which allows you to add your Charisma modifier to resist special attacks (bull rush, disarm, grapple, sunder or trip) OR apply it as a bonus to the saving throws of all allies within 20 ft. for 1 round (but only to a single saving throw). Stand Fast is an immediate action and can be used up to three times per day, so the projected Divine Grace effect is a lifesaver.

As for Celestial Companions: they can eventually access Guardian Nagas and Gynosphinxes (and I believe even Androsphinxes). The former are essentially a Favored Soul/Sorcerer theurge up to 5th level, while the latter two have Pounce and Rake, and the male Sphinx casts spells as a Cleric. I also recall seeing a Couatl, which is like the Guardian Naga in terms of spellcasting but with the ability to transform, free Ethereal Jaunt and the ability to fly. ALL of them have the Celestial template, so they get some additional goodies on top. The only mount that's actually comparable is the Gryphon (Pounce, Rake, and faster progression), and if you happen to find a Dragon, but those won't get spellcasting ability and if they do, it'll be as a 1st level Sorcerer. Since even the Unicorn can be used as a mount, you can replace the mount with the Companion and have Divine Spirit on top, if you're going Healer||Paladin.

Now...what about Monk||Healer? You'll need a bit of Charisma for Healing Hands, but that solves your weapon situation, your armor situation, your survivability situation and your movement situation (you can move really fast, so you can just dart away and heal or buff your allies). Luminous Armor + Exalted Raiment + Wisdom to AC makes you almost untouchable, allowing you to heal away to your heart's desire. And, if you need to debuff the target, you can just cast Sanctified Spells or counter with a Stunning Fist.