Fighter in the party problems

[Mopeds42]

I DM for a group of players, and recently have been having some worries about my parties' fighter. Non of the players in my party optimize, though we have all played together for several years. We play pretty casually (I am the only one who is aware of the tier list and all that). Initially, I had no concerns about him playing a fighter seeing as the rest of the party won't be optimizing any way, but as they have gone up in level it seems I have sorely underestimated the inherent imbalance between the classes, as I am new to DMing.

The party is level 7 and consists of a Knight, a Wizard, a Warlock, a Beguiler/Fortune's friend, and the Fighter. I am worried about the fighter as it seems he has less and less to do when we play. When I make encounters that challenge the rest of the party, the Fighter seems to be the least effective and often comes close to death (I have even had to fudge numbers to keep him from going down), but when I make encounters that are more to his level, the spellcasters obliterate it. The Knight is simply a hell of a lot more durable.

Outside of combat, the Knight is sort of the parties face and fearless leader, and of course the Beguiler and Wizard have all sorts of tools. Meanwhile, the Fighter is just, well, a Fighter, which wouldn't be problem as this player lives for combat and doesn't really care about much else, but even at his favorite thing his character obviously doesn't shine,and the Beguiler and Knight sometimes sweet-talk their way out of combat anyway. and I can tell he loosing interest in the game slightly.

As a quick-fix last session, I had his character challenged to a duel, so he could has a nice fight on his own, but this was foiled by my well-intentioned beguiler who used some creative cloaked casting to ensue the fighter's success.

All this is a long-winded way to ask for help/ideas on how to keep the weak link of the party having fun without lessening the fun for the rest. I don't want not allow the others to continue to be creative with their classes' abilities (IE I don't want to force a bunch of slug-fests on the party, I like it when the beguiler charms her way out of a fight or when the wizard picks up on some for shadowing and has Halt Undead prepared at exactly the right time) and I don't want to ask all my other players to hold themselves back either. I would prefer not to simply have the fighter re-roll a new character, though if people suggest that as the best course of action I may. Anyway, thanks for the assistance in advance.

[eggynack]

I'd suggest what I usually suggest. Have him keep the same character, but alter the underlying aspects of the build such that he'll be more effective. You could make his fighter into an optimized fighter, which is always feasible, or you could change his class, preferably to something like a warblade. Either way, you would likely make it so that he's not weak within his core competency, which is stabbing stuff. Making him effective outside of that core competency would be more difficult, though not impossible, and it seems like just giving him some fighting prowess to work with would be sufficient.

[Togo]

If he's neither durable nor effective at level 7, he's clearly donig something wrong. What's the build like? A few well chosen items or a prestige class might be able to fix the problem.

[Metahuman1]

What feats does he have? See, at this level of optimization your talking about, A fighter who makes good feat selections can be viable, particularly if all the player cares about is being good at making enemys loose/die.

[Eldariel]

I guess one important question is, what combat style is he using? Is he fighting with a two-handed weapon? If not, that might be part of the reason. Two-handed weapon and perhaps a Buckler + Improved Buckler Defense would allow him to do a significant amount of damage at least compared to a Knight in a party. Add to that Power Attack and perhaps even staying out of Charge setups, just pure Melee Weapon Mastery and maybe Knowledge Devotion (perhaps have him run the Education + Knowledge Devotion combo? Seems like the kind of way where he'd gain some stealth out-of-combat utility through Knowledges while using his skills for what he cares about). That alone would probably do enough.

And if need be, you can add some light Charger elements to the mix (Shock Trooper and/or Leap Attack and/or Valorous Weapon would get him pretty respectable damage already; Battle Jump and such could be added as desired, though Pounce and all that would probably be too much already). Warblade would of course do all he needs out of the box so that's the other option but I'm not sure if the player would be willing to learn the system...? Still, Warblade is certainly an option that would allow him a bit more variety in combat.

[Mopeds42]

What feats does he have? See, at this level of optimization your talking about, A fighter who makes good feat selections can be viable, particularly if all the player cares about is being good at making enemys loose/die.

Yea, I should have mentioned, he is going for a prestige class (I believe it is the legend in the Quintessential Fighter) which I wasn't a huge fan of because the feat path for it is pretty bad, but he was insistent. Essentially he has Toughness, Endurance, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Power Attack, and Cleave/Great Cleave. He uses a bastard sword one handed with a shield. He also never seems to power attack things (one of the reasons the Knight, who has a Greatsword and power attacks often, is more useful than him in combat). I showed him a tripping build when he first said he wanted to be a fighter but he was insistent on going towards this prestige class that seems to require literally all of the most useless fighter feats (and leadership, which he hasn't taken yet). Trying to change his build is out because he is set on this prestige class and gets a little touchy when I suggest that it is on the weak side. If I had known my Wizard player was going to be so good at choosing spells (she previously only had played a ranger, a rogue, and a paladin, and never used a book outside of core, now she uses the spell compendium, and being the "god" sort of Wizard seems to come naturally to her) then I would've put my foot down about the Fighter/Legend Prc, but I like to allow my players to play what they what. This is my first time DMing a full campaign though, the previous DM moved to Finland and always ran low-magic settings, and in hindsight I shoulda just said "play a Warblade" or something.

[eggynack]

Wow, yeah, that's pretty much gotta be the worst way to put a fighter together. If he doesn't care about how much he sucks, then there's not that much you can do, and if he does care about how much he sucks, and is fine with changing the character, then you can do pretty much anything and it'll make the problem less problematic. The only actual issue occurs if he cares about how much he sucks, but refuses to change anything such that he stops sucking, in which case you should probably poke him repeatedly in the face until he ends up in one of the other two categories. Or you could just talk to him, but you really shouldn't pass up a prime face poking opportunity. They don't come up that often.

[OldTrees1]

I showed him a tripping build when he first said he wanted to be a fighter but he was insistent on going towards this prestige class that seems to require literally all of the most useless fighter feats (and leadership, which he hasn't taken yet). Trying to change his build is out because he is set on this prestige class and gets a little touchy when I suggest that it is on the weak side.

Step 1) Don't dissuade him from the prestige class
Step 2) Use the prestige class to buff the fighter

Reduce prerequisites so he can get in sooner/easier (allow retraining feats).
Add additional class features you thought were flavorfully appropriate (emphasize flavor not weakness).

[Mopeds42]

Wow, yeah, that's pretty much gotta be the worst way to put a fighter together. If he doesn't care about how much he sucks, then there's not that much you can do, and if he does care about how much he sucks, and is fine with changing the character, then you can do pretty much anything and it'll make the problem less problematic. The only actual issue is that he cares about how much he sucks, but refuses to change anything such that he stops sucking, in which case you should probably poke him repeatedly in the face until he ends up in one of the other two categories. Or you could just talk to him, but you really shouldn't pass up a prime face poking opportunity. They don't come up that often.

Yes, that is the exact issue it seems. And I have had my fun, because like I said, the reason that he seems so weak is because the challenging and engaging encounters for the rest of the party are lethal and unfun for him: Greater Shadows dropped him to 0 strength before he could get a hit in, scaling a magical trap filled tower caused him to nearly die twice because he attempted to brute force his way through traps (what else can a Fighter do?) I have had to fudge hidden rolls and omit some monster abilities (namely the part where he should be a shadow now) to save his life, and I am thinking that next time I am going to let him and have him reroll, this time being more stubborn about what he can and cannot play. Is that a good idea? I do feel bad because his characters die a lot anyway (last campaign he was 3/4 of our party deaths).

[lytokk]

About the best thing I would say you could do is increase the drop rate of teams that would benefit him. Even consu,tables like bulls str could help. Perhaps even stone skin. Problem is the knight would benefit from most of the treasure you would give the fighter

[Glimbur]

Step 1) Don't dissuade him from the prestige class
Step 2) Use the prestige class to buff the fighter

Reduce prerequisites so he can get in sooner/easier (allow retraining feats).
Add additional class features you thought were flavorfully appropriate (emphasize flavor not weakness).

These are good suggestions.

You could also throw magic items at them which are most helpful for the fighter, but that can backfire. You could give him unusual powers; a blessing from a faerie or an awakening of magic blood or whatever. It is even more transparently an upgrade motivated by pity though, which could be problematic depending on how you can spin it.

Is the fighter's player having fun? It is good that you are watching how much each character can contribute, but if he is enjoying the game then you don't have to worry... except that you are fudging so that he doesn't die. Maybe keep doing that; it is more subtle than the two ideas I threw out last paragraph.

[Mopeds42]

Step 1) Don't dissuade him from the prestige class
Step 2) Use the prestige class to buff the fighter

Reduce prerequisites so he can get in sooner/easier (allow retraining feats).
Add additional class features you thought were flavorfully appropriate (emphasize flavor not weakness).

Already tried this, I changed the Prestige class he wanted a lot (got rid of almost all the entry requirements save leadership) and gave it more skill points, but he is love with the Quintessential Fighter book and wanted to use the prestige class as-is. I am regretting letting him use that book, as it is third party.

[Mopeds42]

These are good suggestions.

You could also throw magic items at them which are most helpful for the fighter, but that can backfire. You could give him unusual powers; a blessing from a faerie or an awakening of magic blood or whatever. It is even more transparently an upgrade motivated by pity though, which could be problematic depending on how you can spin it.

Is the fighter's player having fun? It is good that you are watching how much each character can contribute, but if he is enjoying the game then you don't have to worry... except that you are fudging so that he doesn't die. Maybe keep doing that; it is more subtle than the two ideas I threw out last paragraph.

He has been seeming less happy at the table, and less enthusiastic, which is what has made me worry in the first place, because normally, since we are so casual I am fine with fudging rolls to keep people alive and happy. I could be reading to much into things and his issues could be not game-related.

[eggynack]

Yes, that is the exact issue it seems. And I have had my fun, because like I said, the reason that he seems so weak is because the challenging and engaging encounters for the rest of the party are lethal and unfun for him: Greater Shadows dropped him to 0 strength before he could get a hit in, scaling a magical trap filled tower caused him to nearly die twice because he attempted to brute force his way through traps (what else can a Fighter do?) I have had to fudge hidden rolls and omit some monster abilities (namely the part where he should be a shadow now) to save his life, and I am thinking that next time I am going to let him and have him reroll, this time being more stubborn about what he can and cannot play. Is that a good idea? I do feel bad because his characters die a lot anyway (last campaign he was 3/4 of our party deaths).
Yeah, the death/reroll method is another reasonable way to go about things. It's a bit sneakier than just convincing him to not be what he is, but if he's being obstinate about it, just letting things run their course to his inevitable death is a good plan. The only problem is that he might run another crappy character, in which case you can either veto the crappy character, and make him run something reasonable, or just keep having him die in fair ways until he starts learning char-op.

[Particle_Man]

Slightly out of the box:

Have his character magically transform into a treant (have his gear transform to "size up" too), without plant HD, but also without LA (so he keeps the same ECL as before). Now the fighter should be stronger, tougher, have a lot of immunities, and generally be more durable.

[HaikenEdge]

Slightly out of the box:

Have his character magically transform into a treant (have his gear transform to "size up" too), without plant HD, but also without LA (so he keeps the same ECL as before). Now the fighter should be stronger, tougher, have a lot of immunities, and generally be more durable.

So what you're suggesting is to completely hijack the character's identity?

I'm with the school of thought of, don't pull any more punches; you've talked to him out of character, tried to make things better for him, and he's refused to go with it, so I feel you've reached an impasse that will only be resolved with the death of his character.

Maybe wait until the climactic battle to kill him, say, let him heroically sacrifice himself to win the battle, but otherwise, it's only really going to get worse for him.

[Mopeds42]

Yeah, the death/reroll method is another reasonable way to go about things. It's a bit sneakier than just convincing him to not be what he is, but if he's being obstinate about it, just letting things run their course to his inevitable death is a good plan. The only problem is that he might run another crappy character, in which case you can either veto the crappy character, and make him run something reasonable, or just keep having him die in fair ways until he starts learning char-op.

I think this is what I will go with, because all my other players characters are simply on a higher a level when it comes to character creation and I don't want to have to dumb down their game just to support one player who wants to a play a hack n' slash fighter. (extra frustration, he doesn't like Tome of Battle because the maneuvers "are too much like spells" and he never has interest in playing a spellcaster. Sometimes I think 3.5 just isn't the edition for him) Fortunately I think this week there will be a fight that I already was worried would be too much for his character, so I think I will just let things play out. Thank you for your help everyone

[OldTrees1]

Already tried this, I changed the Prestige class he wanted a lot (got rid of almost all the entry requirements save leadership) and gave it more skill points, but he is love with the Quintessential Fighter book and wanted to use the prestige class as-is. I am regretting letting him use that book, as it is third party.

Did you ask why he wanted to use the class as is?


Sidenote: Fighters should not brute force their way through traps. They should use their limited mobility to try to avoid trap placement despite not being able to find traps.
Ex:
My fighter tries to avoid touching doors or the square in front of doors.
One of my players used to use an anchor both to trigger pressure plates and to stop a rolling boulder.

[Mopeds42]

Did you ask why he wanted to use the class as is?


Sidenote: Fighters should not brute force their way through traps. They should use their limited mobility to try to avoid trap placement despite not being able to find traps.
Ex:
My fighter tries to avoid touching doors or the square in front of doors.
One of my players used to use an anchor both to trigger pressure plates and to stop a rolling boulder.

Yes, because he really wants to use this third party supplement he bought. He is also notorious in our group for getting killed by traps, as he always tries to brute force them. The party typically doesn't allow him near traps

[Vhaidara]

.
Maybe wait until the climactic battle to kill him, say, let him heroically sacrifice himself to win the battle, but otherwise, it's only really going to get worse for him.

Big problem there is that the heroic sacrifice is LITERALLY the Knight's job.

[veti]

If he's trying to tank his way through traps, I'd wonder about his sanity. At that point it sounds as if he's relying on you using DM fiat to get him out of the consequences of his own stupidity. There's only so much you can do to help him.

If he's hellbent on this prestige class, sounds like your realistic options are (a) accelerate levelling until he qualifies (do you think it will make him any better, by the way?), or (b) just lift protection from his character and let him die already.

[Metahuman1]

You said that this prestige class he's hung up on required Leadership to enter, right?

That might be a fix right there. Give him a Caster as a Cohort who's a dedicated buff bot and/or Item crafter to give him exclusive access to strong buffs/gear to make him more viable.

Wizards, Clerics, Wu-Gen and Bards all excel at this if you spec them right. Just tell him that your the DM and decide what he get's for a leadership companion/followers and if it can get into a PrC with the companion/followers you give him.

Maybe make one of his followers have an insane handle animal check to load him up with all kinds of awesome powerful animal mounts to use too while your at it.


Should help him out and all you have to do is get him to 8th level alive so he can take leadership.

[OldTrees1]

Yes, because he really wants to use this third party supplement he bought. He is also notorious in our group for getting killed by traps, as he always tries to brute force them. The party typically doesn't allow him near traps

He is not making this easy on you.

DM invented Custom Magic Items seem like the best solution.

Perhaps introduce a new bastard sword enshrined in a crypt. It starts as barely better than his current one but it has unlocking abilities.

Perhaps introduce the bracers/anklets of alacrity from the Drizzt books.

[Mopeds42]

If he's trying to tank his way through traps, I'd wonder about his sanity. At that point it sounds as if he's relying on you using DM fiat to get him out of the consequences of his own stupidity. There's only so much you can do to help him.

If he's hellbent on this prestige class, sounds like your realistic options are (a) accelerate levelling until he qualifies (do you think it will make him any better, by the way?), or (b) just lift protection from his character and let him die already.

I can't accelerate leveling too much because the wizard, beguiler, and warlock are only getting further and further ahead.

[Thrawn183]

Outside of combat, the Knight is sort of the parties face and fearless leader, and of course the Beguiler and Wizard have all sorts of tools. Meanwhile, the Fighter is just, well, a Fighter, which wouldn't be problem as this player lives for combat and doesn't really care about much else, but even at his favorite thing his character obviously doesn't shine,and the Beguiler and Knight sometimes sweet-talk their way out of combat anyway. and I can tell he loosing interest in the game slightly.


Just because the Fighter probably has awful social skills doesn't mean the character can't speak or be spoken to. In fact, that just makes it all the more fun.

[Mopeds42]

If he's trying to tank his way through traps, I'd wonder about his sanity. At that point it sounds as if he's relying on you using DM fiat to get him out of the consequences of his own stupidity. There's only so much you can do to help him.

If he's hellbent on this prestige class, sounds like your realistic options are (a) accelerate levelling until he qualifies (do you think it will make him any better, by the way?), or (b) just lift protection from his character and let him die already.


You said that this prestige class he's hung up on required Leadership to enter, right?

That might be a fix right there. Give him a Caster as a Cohort who's a dedicated buff bot and/or Item crafter to give him exclusive access to strong buffs/gear to make him more viable.

Wizards, Clerics, Wu-Gen and Bards all excel at this if you spec them right. Just tell him that your the DM and decide what he get's for a leadership companion/followers and if it can get into a PrC with the companion/followers you give him.

Maybe make one of his followers have an insane handle animal check to load him up with all kinds of awesome powerful animal mounts to use too while your at it.


Should help him out and all you have to do is get him to 8th level alive so he can take leadership.


This was my original plan, but he dislikes spellcasting. I like him as a person and he is into D&D, but he can be frustrating to DM for at times.

[Vogonjeltz]

If he's neither durable nor effective at level 7, he's clearly donig something wrong. What's the build like? A few well chosen items or a prestige class might be able to fix the problem.

I would also wonder how is it the Fighter is always coming close to death? He has more HP than the beguiler at least, no?

[Telonius]

I think a custom magic item - maybe even an Intelligent one - might be a good patchwork solution. It's interesting, it makes him better at what he's doing, it doesn't do any violence to the progression he's hell-bent on following.

[Thanatosia]

He also never seems to power attack things (one of the reasons the Knight, who has a Greatsword and power attacks often, is more useful than him in combat).
Is there a legitimate reason for him to not want to Power Attack? I mean, he's full BAB with Weapon Focus, so unless he did something silly like Dump his STR stat hardcore I don't see why he should be any worse at power attacking then the Knight.

[eggynack]

I would also wonder how is it the Fighter is always coming close to death? He has more HP than the beguiler at least, no?
I would assume, with no information apart from what's been given, that it's because the fighter constantly stands next to enemies, and attempts to stab them, and runs right into traps for some reason, while the beguiler likely stands at some distance from his enemies, and doesn't run right into traps.

[khachaturian]

Yes, because he really wants to use this third party supplement he bought. He is also notorious in our group for getting killed by traps, as he always tries to brute force them. The party typically doesn't allow him near traps

the problem seems to be less about the class than it is the player having a *deliberately* suicidal playstyle.

[Telonius]

Is there a legitimate reason for him to not want to Power Attack? I mean, he's full BAB with Weapon Focus, so unless he did something silly like Dump his STR stat hardcore I don't see why he should be any worse at power attacking then the Knight.

I'm guessing it's because he's going sword and board, so power attack would only be one to one. The fact that he's already coming close to death, means he's probably not going to be very willing to toss away the extra AC he's getting from the shield. (Even though having the shield in the first place is contributing to his lower damage output, therefore enemies are staying alive to hurt him for longer).

[Vogonjeltz]

I would assume, with no information apart from what's been given, that it's because the fighter constantly stands next to enemies, and attempts to stab them, and runs right into traps for some reason, while the beguiler likely stands at some distance from his enemies, and doesn't run right into traps.

What the enemies never stand next to the beguiler who is lightly armored and ignore the fighter?

[Seerow]

I think a custom magic item - maybe even an Intelligent one - might be a good patchwork solution. It's interesting, it makes him better at what he's doing, it doesn't do any violence to the progression he's hell-bent on following.

I'd go with this, as long as the party isn't going to cry fowl at you giving the guy a leg up.

What is it he wants to be good at? Can you detail his build further and what the prestige class he is aiming for does? If you give us a good idea of what he wants to do, we can suggest custom stuff you can slip in to make him more effective at it.

[eggynack]

What the enemies never stand next to the beguiler who is lightly armored and ignore the fighter?
It's not about the enemies standing next to the fighter. It's about the fighter standing next to the enemies. Also, beguilers have some reasonable defenses they can pull off, like (greater) mirror image, and invisibility of various kinds.

[Rakaydos]

So what you're suggesting is to completely hijack the character's identity?

Perhaps it can be part of the narrative... the beguiler fails a negotiation with some fey, and they "curse" the fighter into a better race. Then shift all the blame to the beguiler for failing his checks.

[Immabozo]

Well, of course there is the build, which there have been tons of such advice on. I can throw in my two cents if you like, these are the type of characters I like, but I feel like it will be a drop in the ocean.

So I am going to suggest something else.

Make a plot hook where you give him a very strong item. I once had a DM give our weak barbarian a 2handed (his fighting style) warhammer that was a composite adamantine/cold iron/alchemical silver weapon with all the benefits of each and down sides of none, it had a +2 enchantment on it already and it was 3d6 18-20 x3, if I recall correctly. It was a gift from a town we were celebrated in.

The same DM had us encounter an artifact that sucked me in and gave me (a wildshaping druid) a gift, I thought it was a nerf and looked to get rid of it, it was, no matter the form I took, I always had an arm missing, replace by a strange tentacle that gave me a 3/day magic missile SLA. EDIT: It also cursed me to be a woman no matter what form I took - with a beard. That was mean!

Another DM had the story line based around this super powerful sword we were trying to find the pieces to and reforge, which would give us the power to challenge a god. Each shard could be activated and it would burry itself into the character's flesh and have an effect. One of them made it so a character could not be reduced to less that -1 HP and immune to death effects and there may have been another effect (only one shard could be active on a player at a time)

Yet another DM would give stat bonuses for certain storyline reasons.

My suggestion is something like the above to help balance. Have him gifted an item that cannot be bought, like the composite metal warhammer, or a relic item from MIC and dont require he spend the feat to activate it. Perhaps have him get a few bonuses, or maybe set up a plot so he ends up with the option to get a template (even "inherited" templates can be written to be available, probably as a big reward, magic does some crazy stuff), maybe even lower the LA for him, to raise his ECL.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have you tried eggynacks earlier suggestion of repeatedly poking him in the face?

[Vhaidara]

Can you find out what the PrC is? I just flipped through Quintessential Fighter, and the only PrCs requiring leadership are Eternal Champion and Dragon Knight. Neither of which lines up with his build.

[eggynack]

Have you tried eggynacks earlier suggestion of repeatedly poking him in the face?
It seems like an even better plan now than it did then.

[Metahuman1]

This was my original plan, but he dislikes spellcasting. I like him as a person and he is into D&D, but he can be frustrating to DM for at times.

Ok, alternate strategy's. A Living Sword or Shield or Suit of Armor could go a long way toward boosting his effectiveness.

Also, see about giving him an Artificer and just having it be a dedicated crafter for the fighter to double his effective WLB or more.

Alternatively, use leadership to give him a kick ass scaling intelligent templated out mount.

Doing the first one and then one of the other two should bring him up to snuff, unless he want's to bitch about an intelligent Item and a dedicated crafter who's not technically a mage/dedicated super-mount.



Something else you could try, give him a couple of magic locations to grant feats he really should have, like Improved Initiative and Blind Fight, and then point him at the Mage Slayer line from complete Arcane.

Or you could let him get into a fight were he lose his limbs and then crack open Monster Manual 2 and make him a half golem with a permanent Simultricram over the limbs to make them blend in and a thin Riverine Shell to protect them from special attacks/sundering. The boost to AC, DR, Strength and Constitution and depending on the type of golem limbs special ability's would be massive if you just fudge the save to not go insane for him.



If he does bitch about doing even one of these things, I'm sorry, but at that point, just let him get himself killed and make him reroll. And yes, give him a list of more effective classes he needs to pic form.

[(Un)Inspired]

It seems like an even better plan now than it did then.

Right? The guy doesn't want to rebuild, he doesn't want to alter the crappy prestige class, he wants to disarm traps with his face and he only wants to participate in combat.

What can you possibly do to help the poor schmuck?

Maybe an item familiar could give this hombre more skills and some nice bonuses?

[Mopeds42]

Alright, OP here with Clarifications.

I made a mistake, as the Prestige class he wants to take does't require all the feats he has, and isn't in the Quintessential Fighter, but in Heroes of Battle. When I did question his choice of feats (weapon focus, specialization, improved crit, exotic weapon prof, all for the Bastard Sword) about them being weaker than the rest of the party and specifically the slightly more optimized knight at being a melee combatant, he said he needed them because his character had to become famous with his weapon for the prestige class, and I totally thought that meant he needed them for the prestige class, hence why I offered to remove them as prerequisites, which he turned down. But it must just mean he wants them because of the flavor. I might try to have another talk with him, about how his character can still be a famous weapon master without taking all these sub-optimal feats.

[Seerow]

Alright, OP here with Clarifications.

I made a mistake, as the Prestige class he wants to take does't require all the feats he has, and isn't in the Quintessential Fighter, but in Heroes of Battle. When I did question his choice of feats (weapon focus, specialization, improved crit, exotic weapon prof, all for the Bastard Sword) about them being weaker than the rest of the party and specifically the slightly more optimized knight at being a melee combatant, he said he needed them because his character had to become famous with his weapon for the prestige class, and I totally thought that meant he needed them for the prestige class, hence why I offered to remove them as prerequisites, which he turned down. But it must just mean he wants them because of the flavor. I might try to have another talk with him, about how his character can still be a famous weapon master without taking all these sub-optimal feats.

Convince him that he has a much better chance of becoming famous if he's actually effective than if he has a bunch of feats nobody will ever notice.


Even then, what is the class he is aiming for? Like the actual name of the class. Because the only class in Heroes of Battle that requires Leadership is Legendary Leader, which says nothing about your fame with a weapon.

[Mopeds42]

Convince him that he has a much better chance of becoming famous if he's actually effective than if he has a bunch of feats nobody will ever notice.


Even then, what is the class he is aiming for? Like the actual name of the class. Because the only class in Heroes of Battle that requires Leadership is Legendary Leader, which says nothing about your fame with a weapon.

It is the Legendary Leader, sorry, he just keeps calling it only the Legend. And yea, that was what my earlier post was about, I just discovered that the prestige class doesn't require all these feats, I just misinterpreted his description of the prestige class as such. I think what I will try to go with is a scaling magic weapon as was suggested above that will grant his character some much needed bonuses and respark his interest in playing hopefully, because regardless of whether or not he needs them, he gets sensitive when I say feats like Weapon Focus aren't all that great and he should look into other options.

[MadGreenSon]

What's got him so hung up on the Legendary Leader? Looking at it, it's nice-ish if you do a lot of mass combat or want PCs with their own armies and such.

Do you run that kind of game? The PrC is all about boosting your followers/cohorts, Commander Rating, making your followers fearless, bonuses to Diplomacy, and a +3 luck bonus to all saves at 5th level of the class.

Is he maybe looking to have minions do all the work or something?

Also, what level is he? He should be fully ready for the class by level 6 unless he has a hideous penalty to his Leadership rating.

[Mopeds42]

What's got him so hung up on the Legendary Leader? Looking at it, it's nice-ish if you do a lot of mass combat or want PCs with their own armies and such.

Do you run that kind of game? The PrC is all about boosting your followers/cohorts, Commander Rating, making your followers fearless, bonuses to Diplomacy, and a +3 luck bonus to all saves at 5th level of the class.

Is he maybe looking to have minions do all the work or something?

Also, what level is he? He should be fully ready for the class by level 6 unless he has a hideous penalty to his Leadership rating.

We are level 7, and he hasn't taken the feat yet, (and I am not sure why, it seems he can have the prestige he wants so bad now but he is making himself wait) and no we aren't running that sort of game, it is very exploration heavy, (that's what all the other players like my setting is very much tailored to fit that) and I talked to him about how the cohort of the leadership feat of course would be helpful, but having all those followers doesn't really fit with the pace of the game. He is a very stubborn person who gets set on things, and to be honest I am somewhat of a pushover.

[OldTrees1]

He wants legendary leader? Hmm. Tell him that you feel it would be more appropriate for him to design his own command auras. He is a PC after all. That might make him look forward to the class and sessions even more. Then you can adjust his designs to an appropriate level.

Also suggest he take Leadership at 6th level and start Legendary Leader at 7th. (Since the party is 7th level, he should have 1 level of the PrC and have a self designed lvl 1 aura.)

[HaikenEdge]

Unless you're running massive battles, Legendary Leader is pretty much useless; as his DM, you should let him know that the PrC is only going to make him even more useless in-game, because that's not the kind of game that's being run.

Offer to let him rebuild his current character, but if he insists on playing his current character, I suggest you just be firm and stop fudging rolls for him.

Personally, from my perspective as a DM, if a player's character can't hang with the group, then I try talking to the player first and trying to work with them, but it that fails, I just stop helping the player's character out in the subtle ways DMs sometimes help players.

[MadGreenSon]

We are level 7, and he hasn't taken the feat yet, (and I am not sure why, it seems he can have the prestige he wants so bad now but he is making himself wait) and no we aren't running that sort of game, it is very exploration heavy, (that's what all the other players like my setting is very much tailored to fit that) and I talked to him about how the cohort of the leadership feat of course would be helpful, but having all those followers doesn't really fit with the pace of the game. He is a very stubborn person who gets set on things, and to be honest I am somewhat of a pushover.

Ah. My favorite kind of DM! :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, be careful, this could really make things awkward if he's got a enough entourage to escort everyone to the Grammys then exploring the wild lands and plumbing ancient ruins is gonna look like an invasion, or an archeological expedition. Worse, he could get a lot of followers/cohorts killed that way and have a serious negative impact on his Leadership score ruining the PrC for him.

I will not say bad things about your friend, but we have a word where I come from for someone this stubborn...

[Mopeds42]

According to his spreadsheet, he wont be going into the Legendary Leader prestige class until level 15 and not taking leadership until 12, so whether or not his prestige class fits isn't an immediate issue, although it does seem I will have to talk with him about it, because now that I have fully read the Prc, it will be completely useless, primarily because none of the other players are the sort to want to engage in large battles, currently all they have done is explore, find loot, take loot, spend it on gear/slowly construct a keep/guild hall of sorts, and recently accidentally waken an ancient and malevolent horror that is chained under a frozen wasteland. Point is, the game is very much the opposite direction of large battles.

The main problem still remains: his character is weak when compared to the others. He is not hugely weak, as no one in the group optimizes a whole lot, but they have more effective characters than he does.

My solutions are: Give him a powerful magic item that brings him in line with the others in terms of battle and survivability (which I like except he has learned little and in future games, the party will undoubtedly make stronger characters than him again)

Stop fudging rolls and let him die, and then help him with a new character. This is probably the best solution, but also feels a bit cruel. On the other hand it's not like I am trying to kill him, but when enemies are built to challenge the rest of the parties capabilities, his character suffers.

[MadGreenSon]

According to his spreadsheet, he wont be going into the Legendary Leader prestige class until level 15 and not taking leadership until 12, so whether or not his prestige class fits isn't an immediate issue, <snip explanation> Point is, the game is very much the opposite direction of large battles.


Ok, so the PrC is worse than useless in this game and he plans on taking it long after it would be best to get rolling with that kind of thing anyway.

I say ignore it, it hasn't been effecting his feat choices as you thought and...



The main problem still remains: his character is weak when compared to the others. He is not hugely weak, as no one in the group optimizes a whole lot, but they have more effective characters than he does.

My solutions are: Give him a powerful magic item that brings him in line with the others in terms of battle and survivability (which I like except he has learned little and in future games, the party will undoubtedly make stronger characters than him again)

Stop fudging rolls and let him die, and then help him with a new character. This is probably the best solution, but also feels a bit cruel. On the other hand it's not like I am trying to kill him, but when enemies are built to challenge the rest of the parties capabilities, his character suffers.

His character is weak, and is relying on you fudging rolls to keep him alive long enough to do whatever his "master plan" is with the useless PrC.

It is kinder to let his character die, rather than see whatever plan he has for that PrC crumble around him like so much ash.

I am not a harsh DM, but this character, from what you've said, is literally throwing himself into lethal traps. On purpose. That sounds almost suicidal. He's really relying on your fudging to save him whether he's aware of it or not.

Let the character die. Let the player make a new character with some assistance to make the character viable.

If he refuses to learn, let the dice fall where they may.

It seems harsh, but you aren't doing the player any favors by letting his weak and frankly useless character survive things that he shouldn't.

[Anlashok]

I have to completely disagree with most of the other posters here.

You don't coddle him by buffing his PrC behind the scenes or fudging numbers for him. Coddling him like that will just prolong the illusion that what he's doing makes sense.

Give him advice, give him your best input possible on how to make a fighter work. If he rejects your advice, let him die. Let him fall behind the rest of the party, let his characters die over and over until he figures out that he needs to change something in order to function effectively.

Don't protect him, break him.

[Sir Chuckles]

Legendary Leader isn't even that bad of a PrC. It's not the greatest PC class, but a combination of save bonuses, d8, decent Will save, and some fauncie abilities (Specifically, the ability to straight up say "No." to when you call a save), but it can get a job or two done.

But that's not the problem. The problem is that he's playing as if his combined Intelligence and Wisdom is less than half the 2002 population of Sealand. (https://www.google.com/search?q=Sealand&oq=Sealand&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65j0l4.2586j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=population+of+sealand&safe=off)

Do not coddle him. Do not enable him to live. Next him he runs face first into a trap, he takes full damage. When he does that a dozen times and asks why he's dead, respond with this (http://puu.sh/1RbsD).

Then refer him to the Legendary Tactician PrC, from Dragonlance. Let him "redo" his dead Fighter's feat, change the name, appearance, and what not, and let him go from there.

If he does it again, dramatically tell him he is not meant for the title of "Legendary", and see if he likes Barbarians.

[MadGreenSon]

Do not coddle him. Do not enable him to live. Next him he runs face first into a trap, he takes full damage. When he does that a dozen times and asks why he's dead, respond with this (http://puu.sh/1RbsD).

Then refer him to the Legendary Tactician PrC, from Dragonlance. Let him "redo" his dead Fighter's feat, change the name, appearance, and what not, and let him go from there.

If he does it again, dramatically tell him he is not meant for the title of "Legendary", and see if he likes Barbarians.

Harsh but fair. Also, Legendary Tactician is a great Leadership PrC IMO, but it seems completely inappropriate for the game at hand.

I'm not sure what PrC fits this guy's playstyle. Nothing comes to mind offhand that enables running headfirst into everything other than a Dungeoncrasher Fighter, even then you have to think a little.

If he wants to be Heros of Battle about everything and have one of the military PrCs from that book, Dread Commando would fit the style of game better. (and he could take 6 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter beforehand to get his preferred method of dungeoncrawling in)
And it would let him buff the party's initiative just by being present, which sounds more useful than he is now.

Unless they're relying on him to smash into traps?

[Sir Chuckles]

Harsh but fair. Also, Legendary Tactician is a great Leadership PrC IMO, but it seems completely inappropriate for the game at hand.

I'm not sure what PrC fits this guy's playstyle. Nothing comes to mind offhand that enables running headfirst into everything other than a Dungeoncrasher Fighter, even then you have to think a little.

If he wants to be Heros of Battle about everything and have one of the military PrCs from that book, Dread Commando would fit the style of game better. (and he could take 6 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter beforehand to get his preferred method of dungeoncrawling in)
And it would let him buff the party's initiative just by being present, which sounds more useful than he is now.

Unless they're relying on him to smash into traps?

I recommended it because he seems to be, based on second hand biased and cloudy information, hooked on the title of "Legendary".

If he really wanted to PrC and insists on playing like that...
Borrow from my sig:
Feral Dagonborn Dwarf, make it a Barbarian, pour all efforts into Strength, go Warhulk/Berserk/Battlerager.

[MadGreenSon]

Feral Dagonborn Dwarf, make it a Barbarian, pour all efforts into Strength, go Warhulk/Berserk/Battlerager.

I would run the game that character would be in. I would run the game that character would star in. :smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Waitasec. Looking at Quintessential Fighter right now, this Legend PrC is a bit off. requires +15 BaB Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Leadership, Run(!), Toughness(!), and Weapon Specialization and you need to solo a CR 15 or better creature.

What you get: All skills as class skills, 4+ skill points, Good BaB, and Fort, Bad Ref and Will,
The ability to choose the result of a dice roll that does not come up 1 twice a day by 3rd level (1xday 1st 2 day at 3rd),
+2 Strength when you suffer damage for one hour once a day starting second level,
AT 3rd level also gets +2 competence bonus to attack and damage when leading a unit using rules in the book counting the unit as twice it's size for purposes of outnumbering(?)
4th level may make 5' steps when Great Cleaving up to max of his Speed
5th level may fight unimpaired at -10 Hp and make Fort saves (DC 10+Hp below -10) every round to keep going, once he fails a save he drops dead and cannot be healed once this starts

This is a terrible PrC! A waste of feats, time and effort! I really hope it's not what he's going for because it sure sounds like he's lined up the feats for it...

[eggynack]

Actually, what might work for this, if we're either rebuilding or kill/rerolling his character, is a barbarian. A barbarian running trapkiller. It's a plan that seems to fit the player's style perfectly.

[MadGreenSon]

Actually, what might work for this, if we're either rebuilding or kill/rerolling his character, is a barbarian. A barbarian running trapkiller. It's a plan that seems to fit the player's style perfectly.

See my edit above about the alleged "Legend" PrC. Also, if he wants to be all legendary, couldn't Mythic Exemplar be what he'd want? At least it wouldn't suck like a high powered hoover...


But yeah, he wants to be a wrecking ball, and he's playing a nerf ball.

[Sir Chuckles]

See my edit above about the alleged "Legend" PrC. Also, if he wants to be all legendary, couldn't Mythic Exemplar be what he'd want? At least it wouldn't suck like a high powered hoover...


But yeah, he wants to be a wrecking ball, and he's playing a nerf ball.

Chances are that he's stuck on the word "Legend", rather than the concept.

[eggynack]

See my edit above about the alleged "Legend" PrC. Also, if he wants to be all legendary, couldn't Mythic Exemplar be what he'd want? At least it wouldn't suck like a high powered hoover...
That does seem substantially more stupid than most things, which means a lot, because most things are pretty stupid.



But yeah, he wants to be a wrecking ball, and he's playing a nerf ball.
Indeed. I was figuring that for a fellow that likes running face first into traps, stabbing them to death might have some appeal. The rest of barbarian also seems like it'd be appealing.

[Mopeds42]

I would run the game that character would be in. I would run the game that character would star in. :smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Waitasec. Looking at Quintessential Fighter right now, this Legend PrC is a bit off. requires +15 BaB Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Leadership, Run(!), Toughness(!), and Weapon Specialization and you need to solo a CR 15 or better creature.

What you get: All skills as class skills, 4+ skill points, Good BaB, and Fort, Bad Ref and Will,
The ability to choose the result of a dice roll that does not come up 1 twice a day by 3rd level (1xday 1st 2 day at 3rd),
+2 Strength when you suffer damage for one hour once a day starting second level,
AT 3rd level also gets +2 competence bonus to attack and damage when leading a unit using rules in the book counting the unit as twice it's size for purposes of outnumbering(?)
4th level may make 5' steps when Great Cleaving up to max of his Speed
5th level may fight unimpaired at -10 Hp and make Fort saves (DC 10+Hp below -10) every round to keep going, once he fails a save he drops dead and cannot be healed once this starts

This is a terrible PrC! A waste of feats, time and effort! I really hope it's not what he's going for because it sure sounds like he's lined up the feats for it...

This is it. The mysterious and terrible guiding force behind his character build. Forgot the Heroes of Battle one, this fits his build perfectly. Though now I don't quite get where his character being a commander comes in now. Regardless, this right here is the root of all evil when it comes to his character. Again, the party does not optimize a whole lot, but the higher level we get the greater the gap gets between what it takes to challenge the casters and what kills the fighter gets. The Knight is weird because while he isn't powerful, he stays alive and has built his character to be a great bodyguard for the Wizard. Though the wizard just last week discovered the wonder of Polymorphing into a Hydra so her need of guarding just lessened. I think I will stick with continuing to throw what I want at the party, and if that kills the Fighter, so be it.

[Stoneback]

That PRC sounds like a Stupid Test to me. If one wants it, then one is irrevocably Stupid.

Potions of Enlarge Person might help. He will drink a good potion, won't he? Or is that too much like casting a spell too?

[eggynack]

This is it. The mysterious and terrible guiding force behind his character build. Forgot the Heroes of Battle one, this fits his build perfectly. Though now I don't quite get where his character being a commander comes in now. Regardless, this right here is the root of all evil when it comes to his character. Again, the party does not optimize a whole lot, but the higher level we get the greater the gap gets between what it takes to challenge the casters and what kills the fighter gets. The Knight is weird because while he isn't powerful, he stays alive and has built his character to be a great bodyguard for the Wizard. Though the wizard just last week discovered the wonder of Polymorphing into a Hydra so her need of guarding just lessened. I think I will stick with continuing to throw what I want at the party, and if that kills the Fighter, so be it.
Does the possibility exist of the wizard polymorphing the fighter into a hydra? That could help a lot.

[Mopeds42]

Does the possibility exist of the wizard polymorphing the fighter into a hydra? That could help a lot.

I think he would make an excellent Hydra :smallbiggrin:

[MadGreenSon]

This is it. The mysterious and terrible guiding force behind his character build. Forgot the Heroes of Battle one, this fits his build perfectly. Though now I don't quite get where his character being a commander comes in now. Regardless, this right here is the root of all evil when it comes to his character. Again, the party does not optimize a whole lot, but the higher level we get the greater the gap gets between what it takes to challenge the casters and what kills the fighter gets. The Knight is weird because while he isn't powerful, he stays alive and has built his character to be a great bodyguard for the Wizard. Though the wizard just last week discovered the wonder of Polymorphing into a Hydra so her need of guarding just lessened. I think I will stick with continuing to throw what I want at the party, and if that kills the Fighter, so be it.

Terrible guiding force indeed. Your group may not be high optimization, but that PrC is like Anti-Optimization, you have to turn your character into a hot mess to qualify and then get nothing all that good or interesting in return.

Nice to see your party Wizard has found the Joy of Polymorph (written by Rary, before the Traitor days :smallbiggrin:)

You have the right attitude for handling this, don't go mushball and back down from it. He's begging to have a dead character with these actions. Afterward, you may want to go with eggynack's idea and get him to go Barbarian, it would seem to fit the playstyle.

[eggynack]

I think he would make an excellent Hydra :smallbiggrin:
Very nifty. It's definitely a feasible solution, forcing power down his throat by having the party cast hyper-efficient buff spells on him. He could even wind up a rather high powered fighter, if only by the grace of his teammates. Turning the fighter into a hydra is usually a more effective route than turning yourself into a hydra anyway.

[Gwendol]

That is a terrible PrC! Let the PC die and be done with it. If he likes combat and smashing things, point him towards the Dungeoncrasher Fighter ACF. After level six start progressing as Warblade and never look back.

[Telonius]

Wow. Just wow.

Some of the flavor text just makes it that much worse.


Few commoners believe the legend really exists ... Upon meeting the legend, many feel a little disappointed ... Legend NPCs are extraordinarily rare ... In a strange way, the legend lives for pain and adversity ...


I think we may have discovered something that exceeds the irony level of the Monk Dead Level description. ("Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.")

[MadGreenSon]

Wow. Just wow.

Some of the flavor text just makes it that much worse.



I know right?

Random Commoner: "Wow, I'd heard stories, but I didn't believe you really existed!"

Legend PC: "Well! The stories are true, and here I am!"

Random Commoner: "I've gotta say, meeting you in person, you're kinda disappointing"

Legend PC Party Member: "You think he's disappointing now? You should see him in battle!"

Random Commoner and PC Party member walk off, laughing together at Legend PC.

Legend PC (muttering to himself): "Luckily, I live for pain and adversity"



I think we may have discovered something that exceeds the irony level of the Monk Dead Level description. ("Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.")

Yeah, on reflection, the irony of the description sorta jumps off the page and stabs you in the face (ineffectively, like Legends do). :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Well, first thing I notice is that you have a Wizard who's trying for the "god" archetype - that is, buffing and battlefield control. Does your fighter player feel he is not doing it if he's buffed? Because if not, see if you can't get the god-caster to do just a little more focus on buffing the fighter preferentially. That is, if there's a choice of order, buff him first. Maybe prepare one or two buffs specifically for him.

A Ring of Spell Storing the fighter could have a buff or few from the wizard stuffed in to cast on himself might not hurt, either.

He wants to be well-known for his use of his specific weapon, the Bastard Sword. He clearly has the EWP for it, since he's one-handing it. Sadly, a d10 is not so much better than a d8 that taking an EWP to get the upgrade is worth it. It's just not. A bastard sword wielded as a martial weapon and a great sword are actually remarkably similar, statistically. The bastard sword is a d10 instead of 2d6, but the main strength is in the 2-handed str-and-a-half he gets to add and the extra power attack damage one gets for two-handing a weapon. A longsword wielded in two hands is nearly on par with a great sword, honestly, beyond levels 1-3 or so.

I suggest you house-rule change the special rules on the Bastard Sword when used as an exotic weapon. Not only does having the EWP allow you to wield it one handed, but it allows you to act as if you were still wielding it two-handed for purposes of damage. Now he'll add strength-and-a-half to damage and get the 2:1 return on power attack. The ability to get two-handed damage while holding a shield might actually be worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

If the party lacks a skill-based trap disarmer, and he takes that role in the form of a living mine detector, perhaps rig traps such that physical brute force could potentially destroy them without setting them off on anybody. The Knight could also do something there, but the fighter has a shield and a sword with the same (or more) reach as the Knight's (since the fighter wields his one-handed, giving just a little more reach despite the slightly shorter blade). There aren't mechanics for this, to my knowledge, but hiding behind a shield and poking the trap with the longer reach might have some potential one can mine from the fluff to make useful mechanics.

[Person_Man]

I would suggest giving the Fighter cool magic items that let him do additional stuff, especially outside of combat. For example, you could give him an Intelligent magic item with access to a number of utility spells.

[MadGreenSon]

I would suggest giving the Fighter cool magic items that let him do additional stuff, especially outside of combat. For example, you could give him an Intelligent magic item with access to a number of utility spells.

From what the OP described, this guy is determined to throw himself on both metaphorical and literal landmines (the horrible PrC and face-first into traps).

It's probably past time to stop coddling him and let him have some of the consequences he's been avoiding only with DM assistance so far.

[Shining Wrath]

If he's set on his prestige class, then I don't see too many options for you. He's on a path, and the name of that path is the Road to Mediocre, population: you.

1) An intelligent magic item (bastard sword) that interacts with him and perhaps has abilities that allow the Fighter to do something else in combat besides "I hit it with my sword!"
2) Kill the Fighter. Make it look like an accident.
3) Have the Fighter be possessed by some sort of spirit with a different personality and goals than his. Every combat require a will check to see which personality runs that fight. The other personality is a Warblade, so when the Warblade persona wins, he uses level-appropriate Tome of Battle stuff. It won't take too many uses of Ruby Nightmare Blade for him to start to like the Warblade better. Once he starts rooting for the Warblade persona to win the will checks you can suggest recreating or reworking the character.
4) A sidekick. He somehow befriends, e.g., a Lantern Archon trapped on this plane (perhaps until the LA fulfills a quest), and now he's got another character to control in combat - one who does stuff other than "I hit it with my sword!".

Edit:

5) He sets off traps by walking right in to them? Suppose a trap malfunctions (maybe it's ancient) and does something the trap maker never intended, and no trap before or since has ever done. The Fighter gets changed, somehow. Maybe he winds up with an arm with a mind of it's own? If you've never seen Dr. Strangelove, I assign you that as homework - it'll be the most fun you've ever had doing homework. Maybe his nose becomes a level 1 sorcerer, and he can cast Charm Person by wiggling it a la Bewitched - make him role play the nose, talking through his nose when the sorcerer has something to say. Maybe it changes him more fundamentally, and you now have a fearless warrior in the body of a mouse (Reechiecheep?). Something that both teaches him that's not such a good idea, and adds flavor to the character.

[MadGreenSon]

If he's set on his prestige class, then I don't see too many options for you. He's on a path, and the name of that path is the Road to Mediocre, population: you.

1) An intelligent magic item (bastard sword) that interacts with him and perhaps has abilities that allow the Fighter to do something else in combat besides "I hit it with my sword!"
2) Kill the Fighter. Make it look like an accident.
<snip>


Considering he throws himself bodily into traps to brute force them, you won't have to try hard, and it'll look more like suicide.

It's the kindest option.

Realizing that his magic sword, sidekick, or the entity possessing him are flat out better and more useful to the party than he is would probably be depressing for the poor bugger.

And could you imagine the scene if a party "divorced" a member, but made him leave his sword behind because everyone gets along better with the sword and the sword is a better party member?

Worse, the sword accepting?

[prufock]

Apart from the statement at the beginning that you think he's starting to lose interest, I haven't seen you state whether you've asked him if he's having fun with the game and character. That is job 1. Effective or not, maybe he enjoys playing the bumbling bruiser, getting cut down by traps, getting facesmashed, etc.

If he's not having fun, but still stubborn about changing his build at all, your player is broken.

[MadGreenSon]

Apart from the statement at the beginning that you think he's starting to lose interest, I haven't seen you state whether you've asked him if he's having fun with the game and character. That is job 1. Effective or not, maybe he enjoys playing the bumbling bruiser, getting cut down by traps, getting facesmashed, etc.

If he's not having fun, but still stubborn about changing his build at all, your player is broken.

Strangely, I got the impression that he doesn't realize that he's a bumbling bruiser. He thinks he's a "Legend" <snerk> in the making.

It's funny. I'm a bad person for thinking so, but it's funny. Maybe the "Legend" is the right way to go for this guy, just not for the reasons he thinks...

[Komatik]

I think this is what I will go with, because all my other players characters are simply on a higher a level when it comes to character creation and I don't want to have to dumb down their game just to support one player who wants to a play a hack n' slash fighter. (extra frustration, he doesn't like Tome of Battle because the maneuvers "are too much like spells" and he never has interest in playing a spellcaster. Sometimes I think 3.5 just isn't the edition for him) Fortunately I think this week there will be a fight that I already was worried would be too much for his character, so I think I will just let things play out. Thank you for your help everyone

Every time I read the underlined sentence I contract a brain tumor. Kindly inform him, please, that actual, real swordfighting works like that? The techniques from fighting systems of medieval Europe, for example, are self-contained pieces of instruction on how to do quite exact things for very specific purposes. They are very, very much akin to the ToB maneuver or D&D spell, much more so than most feats or other combat options like that.

Techniques also cannot realistically be done repeatedly in combat most of the time. I'd like to point out that the adept doesn't forget the maneuvers - they become unreadied, that is he isn't ready to execute them. It makes well enough sense while still being simple. To get any more accurate you'd have to write a couple books' worth of unnecessarily heavy kludge to do things any justice.

[Shining Wrath]

Considering he throws himself bodily into traps to brute force them, you won't have to try hard, and it'll look more like suicide.

It's the kindest option.

Realizing that his magic sword, sidekick, or the entity possessing him are flat out better and more useful to the party than he is would probably be depressing for the poor bugger.

And could you imagine the scene if a party "divorced" a member, but made him leave his sword behind because everyone gets along better with the sword and the sword is a better party member?

Worse, the sword accepting?

If someone's not having fun and it's because they are making poor character design choices, killing their character is no guarantee that they'll make good ones the next time around. Showing them, gently, that they could make better choices and have a character of similar fluff seems to me to be the path.

Option the 6th: he walks into a trap that turns him into a gestalt character, second class being ... rogue. Healer. Factotum. Whatever. Perhaps the second class starts out two levels behind the Fighter.

[OldTrees1]

Every time I read the underlined sentence I contract a brain tumor.

Sometimes the objection is to the mechanical feel not to the thematic feel. The rest of your post is only applicable to objections to the thematic feel.

So please don't get a tumor when others state a reasonable preference.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh, and you might show the Fighter this from Tome of Battle:


While you are in this stance (Wolf Pack Tactics), each successful strike allows you to slowly work your way around an opponent. Each time you make a successful melee attack, you can move 5 feet. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from the creature you struck. You cannot use this stance to move more than your current speed in a single round.

Which is pretty similar to "4th level may make 5' steps when Great Cleaving up to max of his Speed".

Ask him why Legend is OK, but Tome of Battle isn't.

[MadGreenSon]

If someone's not having fun and it's because they are making poor character design choices, killing their character is no guarantee that they'll make good ones the next time around. Showing them, gently, that they could make better choices and have a character of similar fluff seems to me to be the path.

Option the 6th: he walks into a trap that turns him into a gestalt character, second class being ... rogue. Healer. Factotum. Whatever. Perhaps the second class starts out two levels behind the Fighter.

From what the OP has said, they've done everything to help him along short of taking his character sheet and re-writing it. This includes fudging rolls to keep him from being killed by his poor decision making.

Gentle suggestions haven't worked on this person. Harsh treatment is likely the only thing he'll respond to. If that.

The player has been described as basically to stubborn to listen to reason and bull-headedly determined to have his own way to the detriment of everyone, most especially himself. Mostly himself. (sounds like the other players are having fun still)

At this point, giving him more help isn't going to help. Cutting off the freebie survival is the only thing that might work.

[NotScaryBats]

Every time I read the underlined sentence I contract a brain tumor. Kindly inform him, please, that actual, real swordfighting works like that? The techniques from fighting systems of medieval Europe, for example, are self-contained pieces of instruction on how to do quite exact things for very specific purposes. They are very, very much akin to the ToB maneuver or D&D spell, much more so than most feats or other combat options like that.
.

As a player making a character, you have to root through a chapter of things with levels -- some of which you can take and some you can't. You have to pick which ones are good and which ones aren't. You then have to track which ones you Ready. Then, in combat, you have to decide if you want to use one, which one to use, and track that it is no longer Ready and you have to Recover it.

This pretty much describes Maneuvers, Spells, and Psionic Powers.

Feats are similar, but check it out: This guy is taking a PrC that Chooses All His Feats For Him.

Maybe he just doesn't like having to look through all the books to find the best option? Maybe he chafes at the idea of choosing whether to Power Attack or not to Power Attack? Maybe if he was a Barbarian, he'd never Rage, because 'he has to save it?'

I dunno, but food for thought.

[Grim Reader]

Legend, if I remember right, requires BaB +15. That means that he has 8 levels of suck to come before what he regards as the payoff.

That's not good. However, you could point him towards some non-spell, full-BaB PrCs he could take on the way that would help. Bear warrior, Primeval, etc?

You could also give him the opportunity to save a small people with a heroic sacrifice. Then you could tell him that his character will be a legend to that people. Or they offer him some local reincarnation spell, which lets him come back as a half-ogre, or half-troll or something that will mesh with his playstyle.

[Particle_Man]

So what you're suggesting is to completely hijack the character's identity?

No more than with any reincarnation spell, really. In fact, it could be a reincarnation spell that does it, if the character really is so weak that he is going to die in combat without DM fudging.

[ericgrau]

What's his gear like? Does he have the standard +1 armor, +1 heavy shield, +2 strength item, +1 frost or spellstoring bastard sword? Are his ability scores str>con>dex, or did he do something crazy like pump cha above them all? Gear is easy enough to fix. If his cha is high you can offer him the chance to swap stats and remind him that a 12 cha is still decent, and plenty for a good heroic reputation. More is like a silver tongue. Each one may seem small on its own but they really add up, especially on someone who only hits things and takes hits. 8 +1s is the difference between smacking handily and falling flat.

On the flipside what's the spell loadout and maybe gear loadout on one of the casters? The wizard perhaps.

A heavy warhorse can be handy at this level, even with zero feats. It's effectively +1 to hit (high ground against medium foes) and +4 AC (DC 15 ride check to get reactive cover). And even if it gets attacked and downed, that's two less attacks against the fighter. Remember fights involve about 3-4 hits to down something. 2 hits is a lot. Then he buys another one for 400 gp. Not nothing but still much less than the encounter treasure and far less than a resurrection. Ride ranks are nice for the AC, but not essential. The horse itself can hoof for an extra 3-5 damage per round too (DC 10 ride check).

[Metahuman1]

Ok, so, now that we know what his problems are, here's how we fix it.

First, your gonna sit your players down, except the problem child, and talk to them. Ask the Casters to throw him a bit of support when they can. Drop Buffs on him, or throw debuffs on enemy's he's engaged with.

Glitter Dust and Grease on foes he's fighting, which the Knight can't properly engage cause of his code, and buffs like Haste, Enlarge Person, starting the day with Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment, Polymorph, so on. They'll help the knight as well, but they'll also help the Fighter, more if he's the priority target.

Then your gonna sit the whole group down and explain that due to some issues you've been having balancing encounters for stuff the party's been pulling form the more varied supplements, when a character dies, that characters player will have to wait for you to give them a list of banned supplements before rolling a new character. And that when this game ends, you'll be starting group wide bans, and that your doing it this way to avoid gimping existing builds but to also keep the problem from persisting longer then needed. Make sure this ridiculous book that this PrC is in is the top of the fighter players banned list.


Next, Your gonna let the Fighter get caught in a trap, and roll on a custom table for what the trap does. Have lots of horrible mutilations on the table, and show him the table but not the roll. In fact, show the whole party the table before you roll, then roll behind screen. The table should be lots of horrible mutilations. And the one your gonna pretend to have rolled (or if you do roll it, show him by lifting the screen that you rolled.), is "All your limbs are torn off and ground up into bloody paste." Make him roll a fort save or black out and tell him if he did super super bad he'd have died from the shock of it. Don't actually kill him, just make him think that time he was in real danger, and then roll some HP damage for him that he can't heal till he get's new limbs.

Then, crack open Monster Manual 2, pick a style of Construct Graft, and have some local so and so attach it cause, make up a reason. Thus, replacing all his limbs and buffing him. Hell, be nice and have it come with a forever Simulticram of his normal limbs so that you can't tell there grafts and a Riverine coating to protect them form special attacks they'd normally be vulnerable too. That should be a massive boost to strength, constitution, AC and DR, and maybe special ability's depending on which grafts you pick. Enough of a boost that even if he still won't use power attack or fight two hands on his sword, his damage out put and ability to stay standing should improve enough to keep up for quite awhile. And hell, you could even wave the LA and saves this time just to make sure the problem is fixed for the moment.

As he levels, give him a powerful scaling Cohort that's some kinda awesome monster he can ride and a powerful Intelligent sword that scales up it's enchantments with level and also either let's him do magic or gives him skill useage he can't have as a fighter normally. Do one then the other when/if he starts falling behind again.

Then, when his character either dies (less likely but not impossible.) or the campaign concludes and the epilogs are written and your looking at rolling new characters, take him aside, give him his personal banned list. Do the rest of the party, one at a time, in privet, first, and make it basically be 3rd party supplements, or at least this one problematic one. When you talk to the fighters player, show him just how much fiat you had to pull to keep his character alive and fun to play. How many rules you had to break to let him do it his way, and then explain that that was very hard for you and made it less fun, for you, and that your not doing it again this game. Show him to this web site, and tell him he needs to either be up to par with the party, or he needs to be ready to roll lots and lots of characters.

This will fix the problem long term.

[(Un)Inspired]

From what the OP has said, they've done everything to help him along short of taking his character sheet and re-writing it. This includes fudging rolls to keep him from being killed by his poor decision making.


I think MadGreenSon brings up an excellent point.

Would it be possible to take his character sheet and rewrite it?

Possibly while he's in the bathroom?

[Komatik]

I think MadGreenSon brings up an excellent point.

Would it be possible to take his character sheet and rewrite it?

Possibly while he's in the bathroom?

I prefer the eggynack solution. Also letting the poor Fighter die, it's euthanasia at this point.

[MadGreenSon]

I prefer the eggynack solution. Also letting the poor Fighter die, it's euthanasia at this point.

It really is. Mercy for this poor fool, please! A horrible PrC has him caught in it's singularity-level gravity well of suck and has pulled him past the event horizon, end it for him before more get pulled in his wake!

[Loreweaver15]

Maybe it changes him more fundamentally, and you now have a fearless warrior in the body of a mouse (Reechiecheep?). Something that both teaches him that's not such a good idea, and adds flavor to the character.

Aaaaaaand now I want to build Reepicheep.

[(Un)Inspired]

Pathfinder Ratfolk Factotum 3/warblade 17

[Rejusu]

Next time he dies, don't fudge the numbers, then hand him the Tome of Battle.

[Mopeds42]

OP here, just finished up some possible encounters for this week, and I made them not taking his character's weaknesses into account like I have been recently. Between a fight on a skinny bridge with a Minotaur with Improved Bull Rush and Awesome Blow (the whole party save him have some means of flight/falling prevention now) and an ambush by a group of bandits supported by a spellwarp sniper (once again, the whole party has developed their own ways to at least partially protect themselves from casters, except him, who mostly just complains that spells are to easy to hit while having an abysmal will save and touch AC) and I don't plan to fudge rolls (It's hard to fudge him falling 200 feet). Hopefully he won't live, though I won't be actively trying to kill him more than any other party member.

Once he is dead I am going to have him reroll, banning the Quintessential Fighter and his awful Prc on the grounds that I made a mistake allowing it. From there I am going to try to convince him to play a Ranger or Barbarian, to allow him to better deal with the traps that so often are his bane (pushing tome of battle on him I feel will be too much, but I will suggest it).

[(Un)Inspired]

Stay Strong my friend. I think you're doing the right thing.

[eggynack]

Very fancy. You should definitely have him look at the trapkiller ACF while you're showing him things. That sorta build seems like it'd fit his style pretty well.

[KorbeltheReader]

Some other ideas:

Item familiar or relic. Perhaps an intelligent weapon that can detect traps and stuff.

cohort: if he's so against doing any spellcasting, what if you played the cohort? It's a little extra work on your part, so you should consider how much it's worth it to you to make his character viable. If you were willing to do it, though, a pocket cleric could do an awful lot to help this guy.

edit: nevermind. Swordsaged by OP. Best of luck!

[Seerow]

Very fancy. You should definitely have him look at the trapkiller ACF while you're showing him things. That sorta build seems like it'd fit his style pretty well.

Agreed.

What level is the Party now? I'd try to steer him towards something like Barbarian3/Dungeoncrasher Fighter6 (and whatever you want after that). If party is lower than level 9, start with all Barbarian levels and as many Fighter as you can get.

Ironically in this case I suggest Dungeoncrasher not because of the bullrush awesomeness (though you should have him consider that), but because they fit his style of 'trapfinding' perfectly. Max out survival ranks, use Survival to find traps. If he fails to find it, he gets +4 to saves/AC; if he succeeds he can break with an attack roll. If you interpret a trap as an "obstacle similar to a door or wall" then you can add on a +10 to that attack roll. But even barring that, he gets a bonus to breaking down doors and such, which sounds like it fits his playstyle.




Try to get out of him what aspects of the Legend class he actually liked. We can probably find substitutes that do the same thing but better.

[Mopeds42]

Very fancy. You should definitely have him look at the trapkiller ACF while you're showing him things. That sorta build seems like it'd fit his style pretty well.

In what book would I find this ACF? I think his problem with traps stems from not having much to do when it comes to finding and disarming them and so he gets restless.

[eggynack]

In what book would I find this ACF? I think his problem with traps stems from not having much to do when it comes to finding and disarming them and so he gets restless.
It's from dungeonscape, page 8, and it trades trapsense for the ability to stab traps to death. It's great stuff.

[Seerow]

In what book would I find this ACF? I think his problem with traps stems from not having much to do when it comes to finding and disarming them and so he gets restless.

Both Trapkiller and Dungeoncrasher are out of Dungeonscape.


Edit: Ninjas, ninjas everywhere!

[Gavinfoxx]

Fightery Ranger options...

-Skilled City Dweller (Cityscape Web Enhancement; Ride for Tumble)
-Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion)
-Trap Expert (Dungeonscape)
-Strong-Arm Ranger (Dragon Magazine #326)
-Solitary Hunter (Dragon Magazine #347)
-Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage)


Give him an adamantine Guisarme or something...

[Metahuman1]

Another idea for when Re-roll time happens.

Show him the Psykick Warrior (Expanded Psionic Handbook/SRD.) And then show him in conjuntion with it the Incarnum Recharge Trick and one of the several action economy breakin tricks (I;m sure the playground can help you swing all the stuff you need to get both tricks into the Psy-warrior.), and have him speced out to, at the start of combat, give himself all the actions he needs to drop all his buffs on himself indiscriminantly, and recharge to full power points, and still have time to charge or full attack or what ever and have full points to use swift action powers like Psionic Lions Charge and Hustle, and then at the end of combat recharge back to full so that he's going at full power pretty much all the time.



If you show him Barbarian, make sure to show him Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian alternative class feature in complete champion, Whirling Frenzy Variant in Unearthed Arcana, the Extra Rage feat in Complete Warrior, the rules on flaws and show him some low impact ones like shaky he can take that are also in unearthed Arcana, and Show him races and temlates that help Con. Oh, and of course, the Trap Killer AFC in dungeon Scape.

For Ranger, let him sub out endurance and track for any feat he likes for each of them, and show him the scout in complete adventurer and the Swift Hunter feat in Complete Scoundrle. Then show him Hanks Energy Bow on the Wizards of the coast web site and offer to give him Greater Demolition and Truedeath Crystals and an at will item of Vine Strike. That way, He get's bonus feats and damage he needs, and to buy pass unpleasent immunitys.

One of those Should get his attention if he'ls not hung up on being a leader of men.

[Mopeds42]

Agreed.

What level is the Party now? I'd try to steer him towards something like Barbarian3/Dungeoncrasher Fighter6 (and whatever you want after that). If party is lower than level 9, start with all Barbarian levels and as many Fighter as you can get.

Ironically in this case I suggest Dungeoncrasher not because of the bullrush awesomeness (though you should have him consider that), but because they fit his style of 'trapfinding' perfectly. Max out survival ranks, use Survival to find traps. If he fails to find it, he gets +4 to saves/AC; if he succeeds he can break with an attack roll. If you interpret a trap as an "obstacle similar to a door or wall" then you can add on a +10 to that attack roll. But even barring that, he gets a bonus to breaking down doors and such, which sounds like it fits his playstyle.




Try to get out of him what aspects of the Legend class he actually liked. We can probably find substitutes that do the same thing but better.

As suggested earlier, I think what he liked about the "Legend" was its name, as when I asked him why he wanted to be it, he didn't cite any abilities, just that it's "badass" The party is all level 7 (nearly 8) save the Knight, who has a level adjustment (a homebrew Sacred Watcher variant). The Dungeoncrasher seems to be hugely like his playstyle, I will have to look into that.

[Gavinfoxx]

As suggested earlier, I think what he liked about the "Legend" was its name, as when I asked him why he wanted to be it, he didn't cite any abilities, just that it's "badass" The party is all level 7 (nearly 8) save the Knight, who has a level adjustment (a homebrew Sacred Watcher variant). The Dungeoncrasher seems to be hugely like his playstyle, I will have to look into that.

Make sure a Dungeoncrasher has flight. To check people into the ground.

[Mopeds42]

Both Trapkiller and Dungeoncrasher are out of Dungeonscape.


Edit: Ninjas, ninjas everywhere!

Fantastic, I know for a fact he has Dungeonscape as well

[Gavinfoxx]

Fantastic, I know for a fact he has Dungeonscape as well

Also see those Ranger suggestions from other sources to help them do fightery stuff. Also dip Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I think you should point out to the player that no NPCs recognise character classes on sight.

Really, that's the crux of it.

If your average NPC ran into a Monk, and a Fighter who doesn't use armor (but instead bracers of armor) and has improved unarmed strike, they'd be unable to tell the difference.

Ditto a Ranger, and a Fighter with a pet dog.

Point out to the player that if he really wants to become a recognisable Legend, with a capital 'L', he needs to perform deeds of note. He has to become famous. He needs renown, not a PrC with a non-indicative word in the title.

I think your problem player is too caught up on 'being a noteworthy badass' and doesn't realise nobody will know/care the way he's progressing.

Heroes of Battle has a section (page 84) on 'Recognition Points'. I think introducing this would go a long way to dealing with the problem at hand. Rather than burst his bubble (in a cruel way) put this option into play, and give him a mechanical way to achieve his goal.

[JoshuaZ]

If it is possible he is hung up on the "Legend" name, maybe just declare that some half-way decent PrC in setting are known as "Legendary Xs" where X is the normal name of the PrC?

[Seerow]

If you show him Barbarian, make sure to show him Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian alternative class feature in complete champion, Whirling Frenzy Variant in Unearthed Arcana, the Extra Rage feat in Complete Warrior, the rules on flaws and show him some low impact ones like shaky he can take that are also in unearthed Arcana, and Show him races and temlates that help Con. Oh, and of course, the Trap Killer AFC in dungeon Scape.


All of this is solid advice. Spirit Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy are both compatible with Trap Killer, and will get him an extra attack + pounce, at the cost of the normal barbarian rage's con+will save bonus and fast movement. Spirit Lion Totem in particular is one of those things that just about every melee character should have.

That said, you mentioned the player didn't like how easily spells hit him, regular barbarian rage has much better saves (netting +2 to fort and will, as opposed to whirling frenzy getting +2 only to reflex), it's generally not worth giving up an extra attack for some relatively minor save bonuses, but it is a consideration (because seriously his base saves at level 9 will be something like +8/+3/+3)


As suggested earlier, I think what he liked about the "Legend" was its name, as when I asked him why he wanted to be it, he didn't cite any abilities, just that it's "badass" The party is all level 7 (nearly 8) save the Knight, who has a level adjustment (a homebrew Sacred Watcher variant). The Dungeoncrasher seems to be hugely like his playstyle, I will have to look into that.


Fair enough. Give him a reach weapon and some way to get large (you have a god wizard right?) and he should be set for damage if he bites on that. Especially if you point him towards Knockback (races of stone).

For more out of combat use, a dip into ranger gets him some more skill points and track as a bonus feat (giving him an extra use for that survival skill he's maxing out for traps).

For the "Legend" thing I don't really know what to do without knowing more about the player. It could be letting him get into more of those arena style fights like the one you described earlier in the thread, and have his reputation grow would be enough to placate him and make him feel awesome. I honestly can't even get into the mindset of someone who wants to take a class called Legend to be legendary, rather than actively doing things to impress random people (Because nothing gets a crowd going quite like dragging back that several ton huge dragon's corpse by the tail that's slung over your shoulder).

[Haldir]

A drink to all the characters who have died untimely deaths for the good of their players! We do not love you, but we honor your sacrifice.


Good luck, my friend, I think you're doing the right thing.

[Metahuman1]

All of this is solid advice. Spirit Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy are both compatible with Trap Killer, and will get him an extra attack + pounce, at the cost of the normal barbarian rage's con+will save bonus and fast movement. Spirit Lion Totem in particular is one of those things that just about every melee character should have.

That said, you mentioned the player didn't like how easily spells hit him, regular barbarian rage has much better saves (netting +2 to fort and will, as opposed to whirling frenzy getting +2 only to reflex), it's generally not worth giving up an extra attack for some relatively minor save bonuses, but it is a consideration (because seriously his base saves at level 9 will be something like +8/+3/+3)



Fair enough. Give him a reach weapon and some way to get large (you have a god wizard right?) and he should be set for damage if he bites on that. Especially if you point him towards Knockback (races of stone).

For more out of combat use, a dip into ranger gets him some more skill points and track as a bonus feat (giving him an extra use for that survival skill he's maxing out for traps).

For the "Legend" thing I don't really know what to do without knowing more about the player. It could be letting him get into more of those arena style fights like the one you described earlier in the thread, and have his reputation grow would be enough to placate him and make him feel awesome. I honestly can't even get into the mindset of someone who wants to take a class called Legend to be legendary, rather than actively doing things to impress random people (Because nothing gets a crowd going quite like dragging back that several ton huge dragon's corpse by the tail that's slung over your shoulder).

For Saves, there's an ability the Kensai PrC get's at 5th level that lets them make a concentration check in place of a Reflex Save. give him an affiliation (Players handbook 2 has a chapter on rules for these.) that gives him that ability and a slotless Item that lets you get a +5 to Concentration checks and still lets you rage while making this special concentration check. Then Have him take Steadfast determination, and again, point him at races and templates that boost Con. He'll be fine for his saves.


Edit: Actually, better idea, make the Kensai PrC from complete Warrior an affiliation with the membership benefits being the class features. Should give him a nice boost, particulary if you throw in a couple of bonus feats like Iron Will and Steadfast Determination and key the Kensai Stuff off Survival instead of Concentration to make for a different flavor.

[MadGreenSon]

OP here, just finished up some possible encounters for this week, and I made them not taking his character's weaknesses into account like I have been recently. Between a fight on a skinny bridge with a Minotaur with Improved Bull Rush and Awesome Blow (the whole party save him have some means of flight/falling prevention now) and an ambush by a group of bandits supported by a spellwarp sniper (once again, the whole party has developed their own ways to at least partially protect themselves from casters, except him, who mostly just complains that spells are to easy to hit while having an abysmal will save and touch AC) and I don't plan to fudge rolls (It's hard to fudge him falling 200 feet). Hopefully he won't live, though I won't be actively trying to kill him more than any other party member.


Good job. Those sound like fun encounters and perfectly reasonable for their level.

Remember, you are not trying to assassinate this guy, you're just not protecting him anymore.



Once he is dead I am going to have him reroll, banning the Quintessential Fighter and his awful Prc on the grounds that I made a mistake allowing it. From there I am going to try to convince him to play a Ranger or Barbarian, to allow him to better deal with the traps that so often are his bane (pushing tome of battle on him I feel will be too much, but I will suggest it).

The bolded text, however, does show you have a firm grasp on his situation. :smallbiggrin:

Fitting his playstyle and desire to be "badass" I support the recommendation of Barbarian 3/Fighter 6 with Trapkiller and Dungeoncrasher in there (which leaves room for other ACFs too)

He'll get to contribute more and his preferred method of brute forcing problems will be on the table in a big way.

Lion Totem for Barbarian will trade the fairly weak fast movement for ever handy Pounce and if he wants to stay for 9 levels of Fighter throw in the Zhent Fighter add-ons too (They replace nothing!)

He still won't be breathing whoop-ass like a Wizard, Cleric or Druid, but he'll have plenty of badass going on.

[Seerow]

The fear-stacking route has some other benefits too. Nothing makes you feel like a badass quite so much as making all of your enemies flee in terror from you (especially when once they try you start taking your AoOs and slaughtering them mercilessly). There's lots of resources out there if you're interested in persuing that, but places to start would be Zhentarim (online web enhancement), Intimidating Rage (complete warrior), and Never Outnumbered (skill trick from Complete Scoundrel). It could also feed into his Legend wannabe thing, depending on if he wants to be a Legend to be feared or one who is loved.


Edit: Okay really I'd just go for using The Pinball Brothers (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3396411) build, as a guideline for feats. Since he'll be going heavier Fighter, he'll have extra feats to play with that you can use on intimidate stuff if desired. Or to get everything online earlier and have a couple left over for a lategame prestige class if there's any he wants, by that point he'll be competent enough that he won't fall behind any more for a bad choice than he would normally regardless.

[Sir Chuckles]

If you allow the Dragon Magazine, there's some additional Fighter variants in #310. I personally love them.

If he doesn't mind trading his Martial Weapon Proficiency, he can take the Exoticist variant for 4 exotic weapon prof.

He's definitely playing toward what he thinks sounds cool/awesome/powerful/whatever adjective you prefer, and, thankfully, there are plenty of awesome things that don't suck. Like Dragonborn. Because natural flight and +2 is pretty great. It might have some drawbacks with armor, but if you allow flaws it can be overcome via two feats.

[OldTrees1]

If he doesn't mind trading his Martial Weapon Proficiency, he can take the Exoticist variant for 4 exotic weapon prof.

Then he can take the Militia feat to get them back.

[Seerow]

If you allow the Dragon Magazine, there's some additional Fighter variants in #310. I personally love them.

If he doesn't mind trading his Martial Weapon Proficiency, he can take the Exoticist variant for 4 exotic weapon prof.

He's definitely playing toward what he thinks sounds cool/awesome/powerful/whatever adjective you prefer, and, thankfully, there are plenty of awesome things that don't suck. Like Dragonborn. Because natural flight and +2 is pretty great. It might have some drawbacks with armor, but if you allow flaws it can be overcome via two feats.

Exoticist is nice. Grab Spiked Chain, Greatbow, some exotic light weapon (I'm a fan of Broadblade Shortsword), and one random weapon for fun (there's plenty of quirky exotic weapons out there that aren't worth the feat but might be fun to pull out once in a blue moon), and you've got pretty much all of your bases covered with options that are strictly superior to what you'd normally have (and could make for some fun with Exotic Weapon Master if going that way).

Not so sure about Dragonborn, but that's really just going to come down to how the player feels about them. Some people love them and think they're the coolest thing ever, and others hate them. Personally I'm pretty 'meh' oh them, but will admit they're cooler than Raptoran, and personal flight is nothing to scoff at.

[Mopeds42]

The Trapkiller/Whirling Frenzy/Dungeoncrasher build seems right up this player's ally, because what he wants more than anything is to smash through monsters and dungeons and have the common folk recognize him as a grade-A badass, and I think this build will be a very easy sell once I show it to him. In addition, it fits with the rest of the group's style of play and group dynamic much easier than trying to be a commander sort of figure. Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

[Killer Angel]

Was this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)already linked?

For meleers, it's always nice to optimize the use of their strenght / constitution.

[Metahuman1]

Just let us know how it pans out. And maybe send him here for further instruction in the art of necessary levels of optimization.

[Shining Wrath]

I just keep thinking this guy really wants to be a Warblade but is hung up on Tome of Battle. By ToB fluff, a Warblade is all about the glory and honor. And Warblades do tend to take a rather ... kinetic ... approach to most situations.
See if you can talk him into Warblade.

Can you say "Mountain Hammer Strike"? I knew you could! Point out that he can use that on traps to dismantle them. Also mention he'll only have 3 maneuvers to start and 13 at 20th level; he'll have about as many maneuvers as a 20th level Ranger has spells, chosen from a smaller list.

Give him a homebrew PrC called "Legendary Warblade". Add Diplomacy as a class skill. As a class feature, he can announce himself before a battle: "I am Bob! Bob, the Legendary Warblade!" and the foes may be awed by his legendary reputation and suffer some sort of impairment as a consequence. Won't work on a dragon, ought to be effective against the mooks working for the wizard, annoys the wizard, et cetera.

[HaikenEdge]

Diplo is already a Warblade class skill, due to White Raven.

[Shining Wrath]

Diplo is already a Warblade class skill, due to White Raven.

Right you are. Spaced that out for some reason, probably because my last Warblade dumped Charisma ;-p

[Metahuman1]

Consider Giving him a permanent Enlarge Person at some point in the near future. When he has 3 levels in Barbarian and 6 in Dungeoncrasher Fighter, see about giving him a level in Warblade. Point out that he can have a cool parrying move to stop an attack (Wall of Blades), a cool ability to let him badass his way through spells (Iron Heart Surge.), and a cool ability to ignore DR and Hardness and get a bit of Bonus damage (Mountain Hammer.), and that if he wants to get it back to use again, all he's gotta do is take out a full attack or charge and attack.

If he still steadfastly refuses to take a level in Warblade, look at his weapon. Is it an Exotic weapon, like, say Another Bastard Sword (He'll love this.), point him toward the Exotic Weapons Master PrC in Complete Warrior, and toward taking one level in it and getting the weapons trick that let's him use x2 str mod to damage with an exotic weapon he uses two handed instead of x1.5 str. Since it's an always on ability and uses feats he'll likely be using anyway, he should love it.

After that, if you wanna wave loosing his mental skills so that he can keep using Survival to find traps and then use trap killer + Dungeoncrasher/knock back combo + Mountain Hammer if applicable and so that he can keep his ranks in craft weapons making to use Exotic Weapons Master, consider showing him and steering him towards the War Hulk PrC. Maybe even give him a custom Item of Divine Power so that he can still have BAB to power attack with if he actually starts using Power Attack in the mean time. If he doesn't figure that out, well, the extra strength will boost his too hit at the same pace as a full BAB class, and at the same time boost his damage. With Exotic Weapons Master, it even boosts it around the same pace as Power Attacking two handed would with out the miss chance.

[Mopeds42]

Just let us know how it pans out. And maybe send him here for further instruction in the art of necessary levels of optimization.

We play tommorow, so I certainly will.

[Shining Wrath]

We play tommorow, so I certainly will.

It will be interesting to hear what he has to say if his character takes the Long Drop off a 200' bridge, or gets turned into a newt and doesn't get better.

If the anticipated death does occur, since you're at mid level, you might also consider a race with a LA buy-off; something with enormous physical power like a minotaur might appeal to him.

[prufock]

If you're going this route, make some sort of statement pre-game that "Tonight's session is tough, so you guys are going to need to be at your best. I'm pulling no punches." Make sure you don't single out his character too much, or he'll possibly complain that you're picking on him. Toss some other characters over the gorge along with him if need be.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, if you could throw all of them over and make it an aria battle that would make it easy to justify that it's not your fault that the enemy's are smart enough to take the fight to there preferred environment and you let them, and that it's also not your fault he didn't at least buy his character a ring of feather fall as a contingency plan for this sorta stuff.

[Sir Chuckles]

It will be interesting to hear what he has to say if his character takes the Long Drop off a 200' bridge, or gets turned into a newt and doesn't get better.

If the anticipated death does occur, since you're at mid level, you might also consider a race with a LA buy-off; something with enormous physical power like a minotaur might appeal to him.

I'd say Half-Minotaur (Dragon Mag) Water Orc. That way he's naturally large, has a gore attack, high strength, and a handle of skill bonuses.

[Metahuman1]

That might actually be more then the groups op level. Which just takes problem and turns it on head.

Now, A Goliath on the other hand, that would be more manageable, and you can always pull a DM rabbit out of your hat to give him a template or what ever at 9th and let him buy it off right then and there so it doesn't slow his progression down to make him Large. If he decides he really likes Hulking Hurler or Warhulk and wants to pursue them/start taking levels in them and you wanna throw him a bone/help make sure they stay helpful.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd say Half-Minotaur (Dragon Mag) Water Orc. That way he's naturally large, has a gore attack, high strength, and a handle of skill bonuses.

I'd say the event that had to occur for that birth to take place requires more brain bleach than is currently available. I guess it depends on how much cheese the DM wants to insert into her game.

Goliath, half-ogre, centaur, gargoyle - the latter adds some things beside just bigness.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'd say the event that had to occur for that birth to take place requires more brain bleach than is currently available. I guess it depends on how much cheese the DM wants to insert into her game.

Goliath, half-ogre, centaur, gargoyle - the latter adds some things beside just bigness.

Agreed. Anything that's more than two halves is just absurd. There's also the little problem of: your character is now a monster that most PCs and NPCs will kill on sight. Kind of hard to get a quest to save the princess when everyone want you dead on principle.

[Taffimai]

Supposing he miraculously survives the encounter, or is so hung up on his PrC that he wants to basically roll up the same character under a different name, I have a few more suggestions:

- Afflicted lycanthropy: have the party meet an advanced werebear (or whatever you want him to become) that stays in animal form so they don't find out what it is, have it bite him and roll the fortitude save in "secret". A few days later, and presto! Better stats, damage reduction and added hps. His ECL will be above the rest of the party, but that won't matter in this case.

- Drop the bastard sword Legendary Weapon from Tome of Battle, but don't tell him that's what it is. Rewrite the description so as to describe what the manoeuvres do without saying what they are. My bet is he'll love a sword that grows with him. If it takes, he might be more open to the "spells" next time he makes a character.

- Drop a custom magic item that enlarges him. I prefer bracers that give the Psychic Warrior's Expansion power for 10 rounds/day, which need not be consecutive, because that's really cheap.

[eggynack]

Supposing he miraculously survives the encounter, or is so hung up on his PrC that he wants to basically roll up the same character under a different name, I have a few more suggestions.
If he survives the encounter, then there probably doesn't need to be another solution. He's capable of surviving in a game that the OP wants to run, without hand-holding, so things are working smoothly unless the player says something. The OP just needs to keep things at that level of lethality and player capability indifference, and the player will either continue to survive, in which case he's clearly doing something right, or he will die horribly, and we get a reroll.

[Metahuman1]

Agreed. Anything that's more than two halves is just absurd. There's also the little problem of: your character is now a monster that most PCs and NPCs will kill on sight. Kind of hard to get a quest to save the princess when everyone want you dead on principle.

Well, Half Minotaur Water Orc isnt that much a streach. That said, I think half minotaur on top of the more effective builds we've suggested might be a bit much for the rest of the group based on the DM's discriptions.


And yeah, long as he's surviving on the same difficulty level the rest are, he's actually fine.

[Mopeds42]

Again, the party isn't very big into optimizing, despite all having played for several years, which is fine by my because I am new to DMing and honestly lack the know-how at this point to make a game that challenge hyper-optimized characters. So I don't need him to die and then receive a very powerful build, because the party is just a Defensive, AOO specializing Knight (whos damage is pretty low) a Blaster Warlock, and Beguiler/Fortunes Friend and the Wizard, who despite being totally new to spellcasting is starting to get a grasp on what the Wizard can do (which is to say, just about everything).

What I do need is for him to correlate the weakness of his character with his fixation on being a Legend. He also has a tendency to just view characters as what their class is, rather than what their capabilities are or how they are played. For example, he is always trying to guess what class the NPCs he fights are, and I often tell him to stop viewing this as classes and start viewing them as his character would view them (and most of my NPCs, at least the notable villains/good guys have multiple classes and PRcs, as I tend to just pick and choose based off of what I want them to do in game). In his mind, his character isn't a legendary warrior without being a Fighter/Legend class. Over time and with examples from the rest of the party who have all begun to move away from that mindset, I think he will change.

Edit: I also need for him to have a character that does keep up with (as much as possible of course) the rest of the party in terms of capabilities, which shouldn't be too big of a deal, he just needs a character stronger than his current one, that way he stops seeming so bored/ occasionally frustrated when one of the other party members overshadows him. If I can, I want him to have as much fun as the rest of the group but his character building skills limit that.

[Sir Chuckles]

Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Feral Water Orc with LA buyoff Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Wildshape Ranger 5/Warshaper 5/Finish with War Hulk?
Or is that too much?

...I just came up with the BBEG's body guard.

Another great thing to do to is directly ask him "What do you want your character to be?"
If he answers with that god-awful PrC, ask him "Why?"
If he answers "Because I want to be Legendary/It sounds cool", then helping him brainstorm a Leadership Knight(Or Marshal or Bard)/Legendary Tactician isn't too difficult. He could easily back up the Knight with buffs and whatnot, and could have his cohort be a medic or blaster. Boom he's probably happy. Initiator levels could help, as well. They're all anime characters in the ToB.

If he answers "Because it sounds powerful", tell him why it's not. If he get's stubborn, then tell him that it is not your fault when he is not powerful, as it would cease to be fun for you. I've had a player like that, and it is not fun to DM for that player.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, probably.

Goliath with LA Buy-off and using flaws for extra feats, give him 3 levels of Barbarian using Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, maybe wolf totem as well, and Trap Killer, and then 6 levels of Fighter using Dungeon Crasher and picking up the Bulls Rush feat chain along with maybe Steadfast Determination and Knockdown if you picked up Wolf Totem as well. Oh, and don't forget to take . From here, one Level of Exotic Weapons Master, particularly if he insists on using an Exotic weapon, or a level of Warblade failing that, or another level of Barbarian if all else fails for another use of whirling frenzy.

At this point, either get him a permanent enlarge person and into War Hulk for the rest of his career, or get him a pick me up to his will save, to the point were he's making a DC 20 even on a nat 1 roll, and some retrain able bonus feats to get him into Frenzied Breserker.

Oh, and house rule survival still works and maybe let it remain a class feature so he can keep it maxed so he can find traps.

Do this and he should be strong enough to keep pace with everyone just fine.




Also, around level 10-12 or so, start having people be differential to the party and treating them like living legends. That will probably help get it through to him that taking a PrC called Legend/Legendary isn't what makes you a legend in this system.


Edit: Though just for the record If the group was higher op I'd likely be fast to recommend loads of templates on top of templates too, I'm just hearing Knight and Warlock and I know the group can't be THAT speced out that that won't put a bad taste in there mouths. I don't want that to happen cause I want them to be open to the idea later when there collective group op levels are ready.

[Seerow]

Yeah, probably.

Goliath with LA Buy-off and using flaws for extra feats, give him 3 levels of Barbarian using Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, maybe wolf totem as well, and Trap Killer, and then 6 levels of Fighter using Dungeon Crasher and picking up the Bulls Rush feat chain along with maybe Steadfast Determination and Knockdown if you picked up Wolf Totem as well. Oh, and don't forget to take . From here, one Level of Exotic Weapons Master, particularly if he insists on using an Exotic weapon, or a level of Warblade failing that, or another level of Barbarian if all else fails for another use of whirling frenzy.

At this point, either get him a permanent enlarge person and into War Hulk for the rest of his career, or get him a pick me up to his will save, to the point were he's making a DC 20 even on a nat 1 roll, and some retrain able bonus feats to get him into Frenzied Breserker.

Oh, and house rule survival still works and maybe let it remain a class feature so he can keep it maxed so he can find traps.

Do this and he should be strong enough to keep pace with everyone just fine.


This is your baseline for low-mid op?

Just going to say, if the rest of the party isn't high op, don't do LA Buyoff or Flaws. I'd also avoid Frenzied Berserker, and just finish off as Barb3/Fighter6/EWM1, with the remaining 10 levels going into either more Fighter or more Barbarian. Either should be fine. There's plenty of feats that can go into supporting Dungeoncrashing if desired, and more Barbarian is never bad, even if it's not optimal. Another potential route is tacking on Ranger, which would add more out of combat utility (though you probably want to find an ACF to trade the Animal Companion out given how far behind it will be when you get it).

[Metahuman1]

This is your baseline for low-mid op?

Just going to say, if the rest of the party isn't high op, don't do LA Buyoff or Flaws. I'd also avoid Frenzied Berserker, and just finish off as Barb3/Fighter6/EWM1, with the remaining 10 levels going into either more Fighter or more Barbarian. Either should be fine. There's plenty of feats that can go into supporting Dungeoncrashing if desired, and more Barbarian is never bad, even if it's not optimal. Another potential route is tacking on Ranger, which would add more out of combat utility (though you probably want to find an ACF to trade the Animal Companion out given how far behind it will be when you get it).

When I have to account for the risk of the Warlock really starting to uncover the better invocations/uses of UMD/Crafting ability's, And the fact that I'm given to under stand on her first pass the Wizard is figuring out the joys of Glitter Dust, Grease, Web, Slow, Black Tenticals and Polymorph and I know it's only gonna go up form there and she's motivated to help the Knight over the Fighter, and that apparently the Beguilers rapidly figuring out what that class is all about and how to use it well? Yes, it is. Case no one likes it when there the warrior and the Wizard can burn one, just one, spell slot and do there whole thing better then they can.

Besides, I did advise on Frenzied Breserker to make sure he could absolutely make the will save to shut himself back down before he turns on his allies, didn't I? Besides, the way this player sounds, War Hulk would be better anyway since there's no daily/per encounter resources to manage, and no need to bother with power attack cause it gives you strength instead of BAB. Heck, couple it with Exotic Weapons Master 1 and a full BAB progression apart from your Warhulk Levels, it's actually better then conventional 2-1 power attacking for up to -10 with out shock trooper.

[Sam K]

Once he is dead I am going to have him reroll, banning the Quintessential Fighter and his awful Prc on the grounds that I made a mistake allowing it. From there I am going to try to convince him to play a Ranger or Barbarian, to allow him to better deal with the traps that so often are his bane (pushing tome of battle on him I feel will be too much, but I will suggest it).

Wouldn't ranger just be the same problem all over again? Not very survivable in a low-op environment (only light armor - in low-op AC actually matters), and inefficient modes of combat (dual wield without stacking damage bonuses is pretty weak, archery doesn't really have much going for it). Not saying you cant make a good ranger, but it requires a bit more planning than say a power attacking barb, and from what I've read this guy doesn't really have the ability to figure out a good build. Also, he seems to only want to THOGSMASH things, and again, ranger doesn't mesh that well with that.

Dungeoncrashing trapbreaking powerattacking pouncing fighter/barb seems to be what this guy was made to play. Also, this guy might be a good subject to have the Feral template forced on him, just so he can be at full health at the start of every fight (but assuming he actually uses rage and power attack, this might be taking things too far).

[Vogonjeltz]

It's not about the enemies standing next to the fighter. It's about the fighter standing next to the enemies. Also, beguilers have some reasonable defenses they can pull off, like (greater) mirror image, and invisibility of various kinds.

Great. Why can't the DM seek to test those defenses instead of focusing on attacking the Fighter? Wouldn't just spreading attacks around solve at least some of this?

[Seerow]

Great. Why can't the DM seek to test those defenses instead of focusing on attacking the Fighter? Wouldn't just spreading attacks around solve at least some of this?

He's a sword and board fighter. Yes, killing him makes him feel bad. Ignoring him to attack the caster makes him feel completely useless.

There's not really a winning situation there.

[eggynack]

Great. Why can't the DM seek to test those defenses instead of focusing on attacking the Fighter? Wouldn't just spreading attacks around solve at least some of this?
Because of the former thing. Because in any given situation in which the beguiler and the fighter are equidistant from the enemy, the beguiler is likely to move away from the enemy, and the fighter is likely to move towards it. Also, it seems likely that the beguiler's player is just better at stuff, like playing the game. It seems like you're implying that the OP is unfairly favoring the not-fighters, when everything that's been stated in this thread has been the exact opposite of that.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm really eager to hear how the party's fight goes. It sounded like a pretty cool encounter and I can't wait to read what happens to the fighter.

[Twilightwyrm]

Yea, I should have mentioned, he is going for a prestige class (I believe it is the legend in the Quintessential Fighter) which I wasn't a huge fan of because the feat path for it is pretty bad, but he was insistent. Essentially he has Toughness, Endurance, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Power Attack, and Cleave/Great Cleave. He uses a bastard sword one handed with a shield. He also never seems to power attack things (one of the reasons the Knight, who has a Greatsword and power attacks often, is more useful than him in combat). I showed him a tripping build when he first said he wanted to be a fighter but he was insistent on going towards this prestige class that seems to require literally all of the most useless fighter feats (and leadership, which he hasn't taken yet). Trying to change his build is out because he is set on this prestige class and gets a little touchy when I suggest that it is on the weak side. If I had known my Wizard player was going to be so good at choosing spells (she previously only had played a ranger, a rogue, and a paladin, and never used a book outside of core, now she uses the spell compendium, and being the "god" sort of Wizard seems to come naturally to her) then I would've put my foot down about the Fighter/Legend Prc, but I like to allow my players to play what they what. This is my first time DMing a full campaign though, the previous DM moved to Finland and always ran low-magic settings, and in hindsight I shoulda just said "play a Warblade" or something.

Wow, just wow. Forget for the moment that Frenzied Berserker basically does everything this PrC does, but better (if you haven't, you should probably see if he would like to adopt it as a suitable alternative. He's only 7th level, he still has time to take a few levels of Barbarian to qualify. And if he does, be nice with access to the retraining rules); that is a hell of a lot of prerequisite feats for a dinky 5 level PrC you won't even be getting until the end of the game. The issue becomes worse when you consider that the PrC simply cannot live up to fluff. Well there are a few options:
First, say you are adopting PF's version of Toughness (it is basically Toughness + Improved Toughness).
Second, convince him to start wielding that Bastard Sword in two hands. I'm not normally a proponent of the "just animate your shield" philosophy, but if he actually wants to be the kind of warrior that is making use of Great Cleave in the first place, he needs to be Power Attacking, and needs to be wielding their weapon in two hands. Next, he still has a while before he gets to the Legend PrC; have him take a level of Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow in the mean time, so that he can be doing proper damage with his bastard sword. A lot of players can be a bit hesitant about using power attack at first, because they would rather hit and deal some damage, than miss because they took the chance to deal massive amounts of damage. Whether by showing him the PA calculator, or convincing him slowly start taking off a few points at a time.
Third, while he may need to bonus feats to qualify for everything, still try and convince him to go into some other PrCs in addition. It will slow down his feat progression, but it will give him some much needed versatility in combat.
Other than this, make use of the other suggestions here. Anything you can get to help.

[Mopeds42]

OP here, just got home from playing. Everything went great. The Minotaur's Awesome Blow smacked the Fighter clean off the bridge. He wasn't even mad (he did get a good flaming arrow off before he died) , he just laughed. Rest of the party proceeded to have an epic battle with the minotaur and mindflayer that was just scary enough to be fun but not scary enough to TPK (though the beguiler nearly had his brains eaten). The Fighter player was not even planning on using the legend class again, I showed him the trapkiller/dungeoncrasher ACFs and he was stoked. He also picked up Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior to further fuel his bull rushing and spent the rest of the night nearly giggling as he rammed foes around, including smashing an opponent during a bar fight into the tavern's door, though the tavern's door, and onto the street. I also gave his character a new backstory (Thane of a Jarl in a small town) that, as a fan of Skyrim, he has been running with, abandoning his desire to be a "legend". He has just smashed through a false wooden wall into a secret chamber with a summoned Bebelith, to leave us on a good cliffhanger.

All in all, it was a great success, he is having fun, is contributing both in combat and out of combat, learned a little about optimization (after I explained to him why weapon focus/specialization was so weak) and spawned a new joke about how now two of our party members can walk though walls (for those that missed it the Knight is a homebrew sacred watcher). Thanks to all the sugestions here, especially the people who brought up the Dungeoncrasher and Trapkiller ACFs.

As a side note, two of my players SKINNED the dead minotaur to sell its pelt and then their characters later broke our parties long standing tradition of no intra-party "relations", as the female player with the male character the male player with the female character (a half-orc wizard and drow beguiler, respectively) decided their spellcasters needed some lovin'. Needless to say, it was a great session (if a little horrifying for me) and reminded me why I enjoy this game so much. I wish you all a good night.

[eggynack]

Cool beans. I'm glad plan player-murder worked out well, and didn't spin off into one of the several highly feasible problematic scenarios.

[(Un)Inspired]

Congratulations! I'm glad everything worked out so well.

[MadGreenSon]

Glad to hear things went so well!

That last flaming arrow, did he fire it as he fell? 'Cause if so, that's kinda cool.

Still, I hope the player has lost of fun crashing through things in the future.

[Mopeds42]

No, but he fired as he was charged, and he stood his ground valiantly.

[MadGreenSon]

No, but he fired as he was charged, and he stood his ground valiantly.

Did he relish the pain and adversity, as a true Legend would?:smallbiggrin:


(Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I'm a bad person)

[Mopeds42]

Did he relish the pain and adversity, as a true Legend would?:smallbiggrin:


(Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I'm a bad person)


No no, that Prc should be mercilessly made fun of at every opportunity.

[HaikenEdge]

I'm glad the player was given a bit of education, and is now enjoying the dungeon crasher. I assume you also explained exactly why the Legend was bad, so he'd understand and never want to try the class again, and I assume he'll find a way to get Knockback as well.

[Vhaidara]

Yay, people having fun! And learning! It's like a Saturday morning cartoon! Only with dead people. And amorous casters...

[(Un)Inspired]

I've actually never even considered taking more than one or two fighter levels in any build but I'm kinda excited about the idea of dungeoncrashing now.

I can't believe it but I'm thinking about making a character with 6 levels of fighter.

[Metahuman1]

Glad to hear that went well for him and the group then. =)

[ericgrau]

Cool beans.

[Sir Chuckles]

Yay, people having fun! And learning! It's like a Saturday morning cartoon! Only with dead people. And amorous casters...

The best kind of Saturday morning!