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Saph
2007-02-02, 09:10 AM
I was tempted to do a 'best skill' poll as well, but there are just too many choices. Don't think it's too hard to narrow down candidates for the worst skill, though. So, out of the core SRD skills, which do you think is the biggest waste of skill points?

My nominations:


Decipher Script: Made completely redundant by the 1st-level spell Comprehend Languages.

Forgery: Has anyone seen this used, ever? I never have.

Gather Information: Every PC I've ever seen just does this one untrained and then uses Bluff or Diplomacy after the initial search.

Open Lock: It's cool at low level, but at higher levels what's the point when someone can just use the knock spell?

Profession: It's a fluff skill, but if you want a fluff skill Craft is better in all ways. Craft lets you make stuff as well as earn money, while Profession seems to have no use except for earning a living. Now if you were allowed to pick something like Profession: Adventuring . . .

Use Rope: again, it's a skill which is so specific I've never seen it taken.


Extra nominations and disagreements with the above choices welcome (see if you can come up with good uses for them!)

- Saph

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 09:16 AM
I've never had anyone with ranks in Decipher Script, let alone it being used, so, that.

Oh, Open Lock is useful. Especially when you introduce a lock in a damned dead magic area.

Use Rope is used quite often in my games. I don't know why, we just think it's kinky.

Gather Information and Forgery are useful. At least when you have a game like mine, set in Calimshan Royal Palace.

Profession? Well, not really used, but at least I know people that take ranks in it.

Darrin
2007-02-02, 09:18 AM
I'd like to nominate Intimidate.

In every situation where I've seen someone contemplate its use, a demonstration in losing HPs wound up being tremendously more effective.

ampcptlogic
2007-02-02, 09:23 AM
I vote for Profession. It is fluff. But my current character is a performer, so he can't really take a Craft to represent his skill for his non-adventuring day job

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 09:23 AM
He could take, um, Perform...

Kyrsis
2007-02-02, 09:24 AM
I had to vote profession. All it seems like to me is a way to measure how good you are at your job, not necessarily something rolled.
I've used all the others, and actually often.
Decipher script and open lock CAN be useless, however what happens when you are alone and a non caster, in a dead zone, your caster is out of them or even more fun, you're in a party that doesn't always work together? (not in an OOC clashing way but the fun IC inner party conflict type way). The other ones I do use a lot, depending on what character I'm playing

Wolf53226
2007-02-02, 09:25 AM
I actually put ranks in decipher script as a MU once, so I didn't have to waste time casting comprehend languages or scribe it.

Open Locks is always useful, if I'm not mistaken Knock can make a ton of noise, so if you are trying to be sneaky...

Use Rope is the best, always need at least one party member with this to tie up the bad guys for later interrogation, to throw the climing rope, to lasso stuff....

Forgery, I don't think we are allowed to take this anymore by our GM, he got very mad at us in one campaign.

Profession, you're right, purely fluff, but I almost never make a character without one, it can help with various knowledge skills, plus, what's my character doing with his down time if he isn't a MU scribing or creating stuff.

Gather Info is what I voted, simply because we NEVER use this, we RP this out with out rolling.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 09:26 AM
Knock makes sound? Since when? When did I miss THAT one?

clarkvalentine
2007-02-02, 09:27 AM
I use Gather Info and Intimidate in every session. I use Decipher Script fairly frequently as well.


Profession is a terribly wasted opportunity for a great "catchall" skill, but as written it's nearly useless.

Orzel
2007-02-02, 09:30 AM
Decipher Script should be incorparated into UMD and Speak Languages already.

"This letter from the mayor states that must give me the sword, Blacksmith." -Forgery is awsome.

"Don't tell me... the lock is made of ropes and vines."- Open Lock is great.

Jensik
2007-02-02, 09:33 AM
The only practical use I've ever seen for Gather Information was for the Urban Ranger variant. Other than that one time I had an Urban Ranger, the GI skill just collected proverbial dust.

The others I use. Granted not often but they do pop up from time to time and that's usualy when things get interesting.

Vik
2007-02-02, 09:36 AM
The point of Decipher Script is not at all the same that the one of Comprehend languages - the first one is there to break codes, the second one to understand foreign languages.

Also, Gather Information shouldn't be replaced by a Diplomacy / Bluff, nor only RP, as the skill is meant to take a while (1d4+1 hours), and is reflecting the knowledge of where to find informations and the skill to notice people that have valuable ones. A character with only a very good skill in Diplomacy might be very skilled to get info from a given NPC, but he won't be able to Diplomacy check for evey NPC until he find the one that will be useful - not to mention the fact that people will know what he is after.

Edit : I voted Forgery. I like Profession and takes it a lot with my characters, even if at only 1 or 2 ranks. That's fluff, but it can also be used - just like Profession - Cook will help to notice the poison in your food (what other skill ?).

Telonius
2007-02-02, 09:38 AM
Profession, with Forgery a very close second. Profession is fluff. It can earn you a couple gold a week, which could be nice at level 1 or 2. After that, useless. Forgery is the riskiest skill in the list. An unsuccessful forgery check will probably land your characters in the city jail.

I'd second the "Intimidate" nomination. I've never seen a successful Intimidate check made in combat, and it's usually unhelpful in social situations.

Open Lock allows your wizard to prepare another Glitterdust or Blindness spell instead of Knock; so it's not completely useless.

My rogues always put 5 ranks in Decipher Script. It's kind of useless on its own, but that +2 synergy to UMD on scrolls is worth it.

I've never had a campaign where we didn't use the Use Rope skill at least a few times. If you're ever trying to tie somebody up, it's good.

Gather Information became useful with the existence of the Urban Ranger variant. Otherwise, not so much.

Person_Man
2007-02-02, 09:40 AM
I voted for Forgery. In all the years I've played and DM'd every edition of D&D, I've never once been a player or seen a player who needed or wanted to forge something. And I've played plenty of Evil and/or Chaotic campaigns.

Decipher Script and Profession are also pretty useless. As is Craft, in my opinion.

Gather Information and Use Rope are pretty darn important in some games I've played. It's pretty common for me to have large maps with numerous towns/castles/ruins/etc that the PC's can navigate at will. Without Gather Information, they're pretty much just wandering around blind. Use Rope is critical whenever they take a prisoner, which is also somewhat common. It's also critical for Justicar builds.

You're right about Open Locks as well. But the same could be argued for Hide and Move Silently (Invisibility and Silence). Sometimes its just a lot easier to have ranks in the Skill, especially if your Wizard doesn't feel like memorizing nothing but toolbox spells. Large dungeons, as well as any place a PC wants to rob, will often have numerous locks, traps, and roaming enemies. You can get past them with a bunch of spells, but practically its much more effective to have ranks in the appropriate Skills.

Abardam
2007-02-02, 09:41 AM
I'd vote for Appraise, actually. But maybe that's just me.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 09:42 AM
Oh, yeah. UMD is pretty useless in my games.

Seriously, no one cares enough, because there are not enough magic items that require those checks (you know, wands, staffs and scrolls, among other things).

I'll introduce a door that opens with UMD checks sometime.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-02, 09:48 AM
Of this list I would have to say profession. but depending on the campaign any skill can be worthless if you never have the option to use it.

ampcptlogic
2007-02-02, 10:20 AM
He could take, um, Perform...

He already has that, twice, making Profession extra useless.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-02, 10:28 AM
I have never actually seen Decipher Script be used.

Wolf53226
2007-02-02, 10:29 AM
Knock makes sound? Since when? When did I miss THAT one?

Well, it has a voice component, and I know that I have argued with people on this board how loud that is to be a strong voice. But more than that, I have always had this picture in my head, I think it is from one of the 2nd edition books, of a mage speaking loudly and the door busting open, much like it had been bashed only without damage to the door. Then again, that just seems to be just a painting/picture and not what the spell says happens, so I might need to change the picture in my mind.

Saph
2007-02-02, 10:34 AM
The thing about Open Lock is that for it to be really useful, you have to not have access to knock AND you have to be in a situation where stealth is necessary. Otherwise the fighter will 'open the lock' for you. It's a running joke in our group that whenever we want a door opened, we ask the dwarf with his huge axe if he can 'open the lock' for us.


Decipher Script and Profession are also pretty useless. As is Craft, in my opinion.

I've never seen Decipher Script or Profession used. I've got a character with Craft (drawing), though, and I've used it quite a bit. Not powerful, but fun. It gives me something entertaining to do while I'm hanging around, like sketching portraits or caricatures of the PCs when they're spending too much time arguing. :)

- Saph

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 10:37 AM
Silent Knock. Problem solved.

What is this, psionics? Next you'll argue that meteor swarm has an exploding boom.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 10:37 AM
Craft(drawing) is used for the Create Magic Tattoo spell, which can boost your CL by 1 if you cast it at CL... 12, I think; costs 100 gp, lasts 24 hours (48, extended). Good deal.

I once had a character with a very epic Craft(painting) check. He used to whip up entire landscapes and portraits in a matter of rounds, just because he could.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-02, 10:42 AM
I'd vote for Appraise, actually. But maybe that's just me.

I second that.

Profession can be useless or crucial, depending on the type of campaign you're running. If you spend a significant amount of time at sea, Profession:Sailor is very useful.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 10:45 AM
That's only if you use Profession to do stuff while sailing. That's a common house rule. In actuality,

"A single check generally represents a week of work."
and determines how much money you make performing said work. That's absolutely all it does.

You can think of Profession:Adventuring as off-screening low-level quests. Cleaning rats out of cellars for a handful of GP, that sort of thing.

Lial Swiftlight
2007-02-02, 10:53 AM
Almost all of those skills are handy in the right situation. It's just a case of what kind of campaign you're playing. For instance, if you were playing a campaign set in a desert, swim would likely top the useless skills list. If it were a pirate campaign instead, swim could be one of the most useful skills.

Of all the skills listed, the one I've seen come least often is profession. I see it as an NPC skill, really. I could rig a situation where a PC would need it if I had to (they've just hijacked a ship and need a profession check to sail it, for instance), but 9 times out of 10 you can pay a bunch of NPCs a few silver to get the job done for you.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 10:55 AM
I'd say that Decipher Script takes the cake for me. I have never seen it used. Ever. Everything else, even profession, has been, even if just for kicks.
"I appraise the barmaid. What? Not like *that*."

Saph
2007-02-02, 10:55 AM
I'd vote for Appraise, actually. But maybe that's just me.

I've used that one quite often, though - like whenever we get some gems in our treasure haul. It's got a trained/untrained aspect, too. If I was making a rogue, I'd probably put one rank in it.

Intimidate has always seemed worthless to me, but some PCs like being scary (or trying to be).

- Saph

Orzel
2007-02-02, 10:56 AM
I remember one time my party got stuck because Knock doesn't work on barred gates and ropes and the party rogue was captured. We couldn't unlock the rope based gate on a treasure chest.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-02, 11:09 AM
Intimidate is awesome with the variant skill use from the Tome of battle you basically have a stare down before battle and get certain benefits from it. It is cool.

Truwar
2007-02-02, 11:13 AM
In a world with the Knock spell, I would imagine that most seriously locked doors (and chests) would have three locks on them.


Oh, yeah. UMD is pretty useless in my games.

Seriously, no one cares enough, because there are not enough magic items that require those checks (you know, wands, staffs and scrolls, among other things).

I'll introduce a door that opens with UMD checks sometime.


Do you really hate the non-caster classes that much?

Indon
2007-02-02, 11:17 AM
I'd say it's circumstancial, but really, you'd probably need to be in a pretty intrigue-high setting to get any real use out of Decipher Script and Forgery.

What opposes Forgery, anyway? Sense Motive? Or does Decipher Script actually do that job?

clarkvalentine
2007-02-02, 11:20 AM
Do you really hate the non-caster classes that much?


I don't think I've witnessed a UMD check since I started playing 3.5.

Indon
2007-02-02, 11:23 AM
I don't think I've witnessed a UMD check since I started playing 3.5.

I'm presently playing a rogue/scout based around combat use of UMD. Sneak attack/skirmish ray wands.

He can deal what is quite possibly one of the most devastating Ray of Frosts in history.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 11:26 AM
I'd say it's circumstancial, but really, you'd probably need to be in a pretty intrigue-high setting to get any real use out of Decipher Script and Forgery.

What opposes Forgery, anyway? Sense Motive? Or does Decipher Script actually do that job?

This is the thing that makes Forgery absolutely AWESOME if you have a lot of ranks in it and are creative. It's not Sense Motive. It's not Decipher Script.

It's FORGERY.
Forgery--you know, that skill no one ever takes!--opposes Forgery. Which you have.
Go hog-wild.


Edit: UMD is the BEST skill in the game.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 11:30 AM
Edit: UMD is the BEST skill in the game.

Yeah, it is. If you, I don't know, introduce magic items that require such checks.

Silly spellcasters. Never crafting items for the rogue.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 11:33 AM
Scrolls are cheap to make. Hell, they're cheap to buy.

Galathir
2007-02-02, 11:34 AM
My character just used forgery and gather information in our last session, so they can come in handy in the right situation. My vote is for decipher script. I don't think I have ever seen a character who had even one rank in it.

Indon
2007-02-02, 11:37 AM
Scrolls, Wands, Staves, Holy Avengers...

Edit: In regards to Use Magic Device checks.

ghost_warlock
2007-02-02, 11:38 AM
I'd vote for Appraise, actually. But maybe that's just me.
I would nominate Appraise, too. I never saw a single character with ranks in it until Complete Adventurer came out with a pretty nice feat based on it. And even then no one puts more than 5 ranks in the skill.

I've had characters who used all the other skills listed in the poll. Decipher Script was absolutely vital in an Eberron game I played in a couple years ago (has it already been so long ago... :smallfrown:). Forgery came in handy...a couple times? ("Yes, the Queen really did want us to use this airship, here's the paperwork." :smallbiggrin: ) Open Lock is the only way to get into some places, especially when you're a rogue scouting ahead alone. I've taken a the 5 ranks in Use Rope just to get the bonus to Escape Artist when I didn't want to spend a feat on Skill Focus.

As a DM, I've used Profession (Space Corps) in a sci-fi game to determine the individual characters' rank in the said organization. With no ranks, they were basically the scum on the bottom of the totem pole. Since the entire party was affiliated with the organization, at least a few ranks were pretty much mandatory. As a note, though, I adjusted the amount of $$ a weekly Profession check generated (and determined their base salaries as if they were taking 10 on the check).

Diggorian
2007-02-02, 11:57 AM
I voted for Profession. Have only ever seen Profession Sailor used, to be helpful on a ship.

Decipher Script -- seen it used when Comprehend wasnt prepared. Plus it helps with codes, which our baddies use cause they know about comprehend too.

Forgery -- Rarely seen used but always helpful when it does come up, mainly cause the DM forgot about it. :smallbiggrin:

Gather Information -- Very important, we use it almost every session. Great for any community you enter, even without the Urban Ranger (they're just very good at it).

Open Lock -- If we have a party rogue we rather use him then a second lvl spell slot. He's already at the door checking for traps, why not?

Profession -- Agreed. Even a successful Profession Adventurer check would give ya gems like: "Get the money up front" and "Casters should go in the middle of a marching order." :smallamused: A 30 check is 15 gp a week ... wow.

Use Rope -- Essential for cave crawling I've found. When ya splice two 50ft lengths of rope into 100ft you want it to hold. When ya capture three goblins you dont want to turn around and only find two.

Just my experience from DMs trying to make skill pts count for more, so they make every skill handy. YMMV. :smallcool:

Golthur
2007-02-02, 11:59 AM
I'd go with Appraise, myself. So much so that I eliminated it in my house rules, and folded it into relevant Craft and Profession skills as an alternate use.

Out of the ones on the list? Hmm... I'd have to go Decipher Script. Although I've taken ranks (a couple), I've never seen it used in game.

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 12:18 PM
Scrolls are cheap to make. Hell, they're cheap to buy.

Certainly, they are. But I'd like you to meet my players. They're all about showing off to NPCs and bickering among themselves, no one even remembers what a wand or scroll is.

Magical items are all about potions, magical weapons and magical armor to them.

MrNexx
2007-02-02, 04:02 PM
I view Profession as the skill for synergy whores...

barawn
2007-02-02, 04:18 PM
My vote is for decipher script. I don't think I have ever seen a character who had even one rank in it.

+2 synergy bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls. For that alone, it's worth it. But it's come up before, as well. Just because you can read something doesn't mean you can understand what the heck the guy's talking about. (Everyone can read Shakespeare, not everyone can understand it).

I also have to agree with Bears that UMD is the best skill in the game.

Profession's bloody useless.

Toxic Avenger
2007-02-02, 04:23 PM
I would have voted for Profession, except I was reminded of a particularly annoying fact, after looking at the list of choices:

Whenever I have made a character with a substantial amount of ranks in Gather Information, The DM has NEVER required me to make any checks, rendering the skill absolutely useless for me!

GRRR... :smallmad:

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-02-02, 04:29 PM
Yeah, have to go for profession. I love my fluff though so most of my characters have at least a few ranks in it all. However, aside from a few rare instances where it's a requirement for certain PrC's or whatnot, it has absolutely no true use.

Suzaku
2007-02-02, 04:30 PM
Why isn't heal up here? I see far more uses in gather information, use rope forgery then heal ever has.

Telonius
2007-02-02, 04:33 PM
Why isn't heal up here? I see far more uses in gather information, use rope forgery then heal ever has.
Helps in bed rest, stabilizes a dying companion until the Cleric gets there ... Might just be me, but I seldom see a session (let alone a campaign) where somebody doesn't have to make a heal check.

Dhavaer
2007-02-02, 04:39 PM
The one and only RL game I've played involved both Profession (mining) and Decipher Script checks. Forgery, on the other hand...

Tormsskull
2007-02-02, 04:43 PM
I picked profession because if someone is purposely trying to make a useless skill they can take Profession (Beggar) or something. In reality skill useage is left up to the DM. If the DM makes situations where these skills would be useful, then they will be useful.

I had one all-rogue campaign I ran a while back, forgery was huge in that one.

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-02, 04:50 PM
This thread makes me sad, because I have a character with ALL of the skills on the poll, plus a couple of the ones mentioned in the thread itself.

Arceliar
2007-02-02, 04:52 PM
Forgery is useful BECAUSE nobody takes ranks in it. It's an opposed forgery check to identify it as false. I like to think of it as super-bluff for the literate. If you're trying to get in some place you shouldn't, and can't do it via magic or normal sneaking, Forgery can be a good way to go. Why be all sneaky when you can just whip out a signed and sealed order form the "king" and turn every would-be-pesky guard into a helpful escort?

Appraise is useless, even by my standards. Mostly because the average player (not the character, but the player) is going to have a rough idea of how much something should cost, so they're not gonna get ripped off at a shop. In fact, the only remotely useful thing I can think of to do with Appraise is the epic-useage Detect Magic at a DC 50 skill check. By that time, casting Detect Magic isn't even a remotely big deal anymore. Now, if the DC were more along the lines of 20...

The_Werebear
2007-02-02, 05:06 PM
I would have selected Forgery, but we just used it in a campaign I am in.

So, profession it is, though I occasionally pick it and use it in certain circumstances where it is expected. Hence, profession: Sailor when we are in a seagoing campaign.

Yakk
2007-02-02, 05:08 PM
Profession, by the SRD:

You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.


An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.

So Profession(Cook) and Profession(Sailor) are not just ways to make money -- they also let you perform the profession's daily tasks, how to use the tools of your trade, and how to handle common problems.

Someone with Profession(Cook) could notice spoiled ingredients, run an oven, have basic logistic skills, etc.

Someone with Profession(Sailor) could navigate a boat, manipulate sails so you go in the right way, repair basic damage to a boat, etc.

One could even have Profession(Adventurer), and convince your GM that it helps solve your logistics problems, finding an honest fence for you loot, find defendable campsites for the constant nighttime random encounters, etc.

Decipher script is pretty bad, but many skills end up becoming useless simply because magic is better. The only issue here is that it is a L 1 spell that makes it useless.

Suzaku
2007-02-02, 05:09 PM
Helps in bed rest, stabilizes a dying companion until the Cleric gets there ... Might just be me, but I seldom see a session (let alone a campaign) where somebody doesn't have to make a heal check.
Never ever ever seen it used except by the cleric or someone with high wis when they run out of spells per day and can't afford cure light wand/potion. After level 2 or 3 it's never used again because people can easily purchase a cure item.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-02, 05:12 PM
I'd have to say use rope. I"ve never ever even known someone to take ranks in it. Personally I don't think profession should be on the list. Profession sailor comes in very handy in a water based campaign and I know a guy that has used profession jewler very well. So well, he owns an entire city. Quite frankly I think that swim and handle animal should be on the list as well.

Suzaku
2007-02-02, 05:15 PM
Decipher script is pretty bad, but many skills end up becoming useless simply because magic is better. The only issue here is that it is a L 1 spell that makes it useless.

I plan on having decipher script to be used to cypher codes by scrambling the message. In order to break the code the person must make a decipher skill check. If the person with the cypher has the key it automatically succeeds with a reduced time.

MandibleBones
2007-02-02, 05:21 PM
Decipher Script is completely redundant, because most of the people who want to do so already cast spells... however, Profession is even less useful for PCs. It's an NPC's bread and butter, but for a player character... I could make more GP charging to decipher various scrolls completely non-magically then I could with a Profession (Baker) check.

Hell, the only reason I took ranks in Profession (Cook) is because my DM gave them to me for free. Otherwise, I'd still be winging it.

barawn
2007-02-02, 05:24 PM
Appraise is useless, even by my standards.

Appraise isn't useful when you're at a store. You've already got a guess what something is worth - what the shopkeeper is asking.

Appraise is useful when you're in a dungeon, or searching a room, or something. If you don't know something's valuable, you won't take it. The answer to "does it look like there's anything valuable there?" is "make an Appraise check."

I've left a thousand-gp item behind (at low levels, when it mattered) because my character didn't know it was valuable. He couldn't take everything (too much stuff), so Appraise it was.

Indon
2007-02-02, 05:26 PM
I'd have to say use rope. I"ve never ever even known someone to take ranks in it. Personally I don't think profession should be on the list. Profession sailor comes in very handy in a water based campaign and I know a guy that has used profession jewler very well. So well, he owns an entire city. Quite frankly I think that swim and handle animal should be on the list as well.

I've taken use rope before, if only because I have very, very bad luck with the dice and can feasibly fail a DC 5 check without something knocking my modifier up to a +4.

Nothing ruins a day like slipping and falling almost the length of two 50-ft ropes tied together as you try to climb out of a dangerous cavern.

SMEE
2007-02-02, 05:28 PM
Decipher Script is my pick.
I've used all the others at least once for greater effect.

And since AD&D 2nd edition, no character of mine has ever been built without spending proficiency points in profession: cook.
Heck, I not only max it in my D&D 3.5 characters, but also get to spend a feat on skill focus for it. :smallredface: (Yay for old, wisened, senile powerful wizard who is the best cooker of the entire multiverse... :smalltongue: )

blacksabre
2007-02-02, 05:31 PM
Useless is subjective..
Usless for adventuring, or useless for Role Play?
Profession is very useful for Role play..

Profession:Blacksmith..The rugged Dwarf who comes from a long line of blacksmiths...Takes personel pride in forgeing his own weapons..through in some quest lines for him to restore a family aritifact to its former glory by gathering components to make it anew..

Profession: Sailor..The young swashbuckler who started off as a cabin boy (Think Princess Bride..etc etc..) Also very usefull in ocean based campaign....Your group ever fine itself on board sailing ship and the crew has vanished...unless you can sail that thing , you'r in for some hurt..

Profession: Fletcher...The Ranger who specializes in making his own arrows through rare foraged materials, hmatched with his arcane ability they can grant a slight increase in performance..

Many more to flesh out a character..
___________________

Rope use...well as a rocking climber, I refuse to let characters Take 20 on setting up ropes to climb a rock face...in fact a bad roll without this skill will give a false sense of safety and they fall down go boom...
Perhaps your a bounty hunting party, capturing bad guys...if you want to tie him up..His escape artist attempt directly against the Rope Use
Also as above, sailing a sjip requires rope use for rigging...


So Forgery...its the least usefull because I only see rogue/infiltrators/assasin types using it

Steward
2007-02-02, 05:42 PM
What does Intimidate really do, anyway?

TO_Incognito
2007-02-02, 06:06 PM
What about some of the more obscure knowledge skills? knowledge (geography), knowledge (nobility and royalty), knowledge (architecture and engineering)?

Khantalas
2007-02-02, 06:20 PM
What about some of the more obscure knowledge skills? knowledge (geography), knowledge (nobility and royalty), knowledge (architecture and engineering)?

Used all of them. In very obscure ways.

Decipher Script? Not once.

Turcano
2007-02-02, 07:49 PM
I view Profession as the skill for synergy whores...

Do you mind if I ask why? Profession doesn't give synergy bonuses to other skills as far as I can tell.

clarkvalentine
2007-02-02, 07:58 PM
What does Intimidate really do, anyway?


In the RAW, it can temporarily turn an NPC's attitude in your favor. It doesn't make them like you, it just makes them more likely to help you.

If your GM flies by the seat of his pants (gods know I do), it can be used for all sorts of things from pre-duel staredowns to political arm-twisting.

- Clark

Saph
2007-02-02, 08:01 PM
Profession is very useful for Role play..

Profession:Blacksmith.

Profession: Sailor.

Profession: Fletcher.

Blacksmith and Fletcher are more Craft skills than Profession skills. Craft (bowmaking/fletching) is what you need for making arrows, not Profession. If the job revolves around creating stuff, it's generally a Craft, not a Profession. There aren't even any rules for using Profession to make things.

- Saph

Fizban
2007-02-02, 11:40 PM
As has been mentioned, why isn't handle animal up there? I don't think I've ever even heard mention of it's use period. You use it to train animals, and get animals to work. Any animal an adventurer is using has already been trained and if it's not willing to do the work than they wouldn't have bought it. Technically a druid needs to teach his animal companion most of his tricks, but that doesn't seem to ever be enforced, much like appraise checks are never really required.

Isomenes
2007-02-03, 12:29 AM
What does Intimidate really do, anyway?

Makes the leader of the band of aquatic Morlocks call his guys off from attacking your 2nd-level party, that's for sure.

Intimidate is quite useful in the right situations.

Dausuul
2007-02-03, 03:07 AM
I was tempted to do a 'best skill' poll as well, but there are just too many choices. Don't think it's too hard to narrow down candidates for the worst skill, though. So, out of the core SRD skills, which do you think is the biggest waste of skill points?

Decipher Script, no question. Not only does a 1st-level spell make it totally redundant, but the task in question (reading obscure tongues) is one that hardly ever comes up. Compare to Open Locks, which doesn't get spell-replaced until you hit level 3, and which involves a situation (a lock in between the PCs and something they want) that actually crops up reasonably often.

Armads
2007-02-03, 03:39 AM
Decipher Script for me. I have never seen it used, and any time the party can't understand something, comprehend languages

Druid
2007-02-03, 03:48 AM
Decipher script. That and Forgery are probably the only skils I've never seen used but at least forgery can't be replicated by a first level spell.

Rockphed
2007-02-03, 03:52 AM
Comprehend languages does not decipher codes or reveal messages concealed in otherwise normal text.

Knock only opens two locks, and hacking at the door might just get the goblins on the other side to open it faster and start whacking you.

Forgery is its own counter, so if you don't want to get missives from the BBEG, purporting to come from whoever sent you to get him, telling you his base moved, and you can't tell if it is real, you had better invest in it.

Use rope does all sorts of useful things for adventurers, like putting that grapling hook where it will stay.

I have no idea about the merits of Gather information, so I can't defend it.

Profession(sailor) lets you keep the captain you hired to transport you somewhere from just dropping you on an island in your sleep and making off with your stuff.

My vote would go to either profession or gather info, but I really don't think either of them is that bad.

Telok
2007-02-03, 11:45 AM
Interesting question.

Forgery has massive possibilities in a game that ventures any distance beyond combat (I'm slowly becoming biased against people with less than five years RP experience because I'd like something more than just combat).

Gather Information is nearly critical if your game world does not have three Ye Olde Magic Shoppes in every minor city. You have to have a way to find the people who can and will buy/sell magic items.

Profession is mostly fluff, RP, and catch all. To be precise there is no Profession: Cook, there is a Profession: Short Order Cook, Profession: Chef, and Profession: Edible Food-Like Stuff in Quantity (Military). To actually bake anything with skill will take Craft: Cooking. However since there is no specific crafting skill for how to sail a boat then Profession: Sailor is good, although I would make a distinction between that and Profession: Navigator. The Profession skill exists in a grey area between Craft and Knowledge, and it is quite appropriate to apply a bonus to a Profession check for a Craft or Knowledge skill. For example, having Kn: Geography, Kn Cartography, and Kn: Astronomy applying bonuses to Prf: Navigator for long distance airship travel in semi-explored lands. Mostly this is an NPC skill, PCs will tend to use Knowledge, Craft, and attribute checks instead and get about the same effect.

Decipher Script will come into play only if the players encounter a code, cipher, or time critical message in a language that nobody speaks and nobody has access to the appropriate spell. I did notice that the skill allows you to understand incomplete writings, such as fire damaged or liquid stained spellbooks. What I truely fail to understand is why the skill cannot be used untrained.

Heal might be useful up to level 7 or untill the party can afford a wand of Cure Light Wounds. Often it's just used untrained.

Handle Animal has real applications for rangers, druids, and people trying to get past guard dogs or angry bulls without using magic. It's also suprisingly useful to stampede a herd of buffalo through a goblin village.

Rope Use is used for tying knots and, apparently, using grappling hooks. For tying people up manacles, masterwork manacles, and magic are normally much faster and more effective. Getting things untied quickly involves a dagger and getting out of knots uses Esacpe Artist.

So my vote would be a three way tie of Heal, Rope Use, and Decipher Script if you have a not-incompetent arcane spellcaster in the group, are over level 7, and have someone with Cure Light Wounds or UMD on a class list.

Ooh, forgot Open Locks. Ok, it's a four way tie pre-epic. Epic Open Locks is useful sometimes.

HealthKit
2007-02-03, 02:57 PM
I can't say profession is a totally useless skill as I've actually played a few games in which some knowledge of sailing (erm, that is not the knowledge skill) would have nearly come in handy. To make a long story short, our boat nearly crashed into the docks.

And as popular a UMD seems to be for other players, I've never used it nor seen it be used. DMs have always been fairly relaxed about it- you either can use it (which was pretty much always the case) or you don't know how. Since there was always at least one party member who could use it, well we never really had a problem.

Of all the skill listed on the poll I'm going to have to go with Decipher Script.

TSGames
2007-02-03, 03:46 PM
I nominate "swim." I've rarely ever had to use it, and breath water+about 100 other things negate its usefulness.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-02-03, 04:10 PM
Useless is subjective..
Usless for adventuring, or useless for Role Play?
Profession is very useful for Role play..

Profession:Blacksmith..The rugged Dwarf who comes from a long line of blacksmiths...Takes personel pride in forgeing his own weapons..through in some quest lines for him to restore a family aritifact to its former glory by gathering components to make it anew..

Firstly: that's craft, not profession.

Secondly, if there was no Profession skill in the game, you'd still be able to have exactly the same backstory.

HealthKit
2007-02-03, 04:17 PM
Firstly: that's craft, not profession.

Secondly, if there was no Profession skill in the game, you'd still be able to have exactly the same backstory.

Well it's not like forging weapons is the only thing a Blacksmith can do.

Jimp
2007-02-03, 04:35 PM
Decipher Script: I saw it used once before but that was day one of a low level campaign and no caster had it prepared. Otherwise spells have done the job.

Forgery: VERY useful when used correctly. I try to take it when I can.

Gather Information: I have used it and have seen it used plenty of times, often with good results.

Open Lock: I've always found useful, though it should really be part of Disable Device.

Profession: I have only ever seen it used as Cook for background fluff and Sailor in seafaring campaigns. I love seafaring campaigns and have used the Sailor version a few times.

Use Rope: A little but not too often, though I can see uses for it.

I voted for Decipher Script.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-03, 04:37 PM
You just rattled off a list of some of the primary skills in one of my games.

Decipher Script: Code. Need I say more?

Forgery: For when you absolutely, positively must get into the duke's grand ball but don't have an invitation. And any number of similar situations.

Gather Information is a must. In an urban campaign, it can be as important as Spot, sometimes even more so. Finding out where to be is often more than half the battle.

Open Lock: If someone has someplace he doesn't want anybody to get into, is he going to not take steps to negate knock? Having three or more locks on the door screws up a single casting (the spell can only negate two means of securing the door). Multiple doors is also a problem. When you're searching a secured gang hideout/barracks/castle/whatever, you're going to see upwards of twenty locked doors. Wands of knock get damned expensive very quickly, to the point where yes, masterwork thieves' tools look tempting.

Profession: You have something of a point. Mainly I'd say it exists for NPCs, though outside of the abstract it does mean you have the skills to do the job you have the skill in. If you're trying to blend in as, say, a dockworker, wouldn't you be better at it if you know what the hell you're doing?

Use Rope: Second-story jobs. 'Nuff said. I had the Use Rope skill save my character's life during a game last month; if he hadn't managed to secure the grappling hook onto the bridge at the last second, that bebilith would have sent him plummeting to his death. Granted, my brother the DM was cheating and giving the thing abilities it doesn't have (it can only stick you to the floor with its webbing, not drag you around and over cliffs), but the swashbucklingness was just too cool. :smalltongue:

So your list is hogwash. None of the above.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-03, 04:39 PM
Eh? All of those seem useful enough to me except decipher script and Profession. I picked decipher script because it has never, ever been used in any game that I have run/played/heard about.

The following are useful things that you can do with Profession:

1) Profession: Siege Engineer - can fire siege weapons with reduced penalties. Useful in some large-scale combat situations. I've seen this used in about 1 out of 7 or so games. It's likely to be used in all military style campaigns.

2) Profession: Airship Pilot - you can fly a friggin airship, what's not to like? I've seen it used in every campaign that allows airships.

3) Profession: Navigator/sailing/the equivalent - for travel by boat, when you can't hire passage. It's ok, I guess...

4) Profession: Engineer - You can justify all sorts of things to the DM! Just look at the "things I'm not allowed to do while gaming" thread for ideas. If my character has some extra points, I usually put them here and in a relevant craft skill to make railguns and the like.

There are likely a couple others, but those were the best I could think of. It puts profession 4 points up on decipher script, IMO.

Jimp
2007-02-03, 04:45 PM
4) Profession: Engineer
Wouldn't that be Knowledge: Engineering?

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-03, 04:48 PM
Wouldn't that be Knowledge: Engineering?

In my group, you need that and the profession to do cool stuff, and the relevent craft. Then you have to justify what you're making to the DM. We kill lots of catgirls.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-03, 04:53 PM
Man, this is too hard for me. I love skills- I play rogue classes the most and I very often pick human and dedicate the first feat to "Able Learner". I've used every skill in the game for one thing or another. For instance-

Forgery, worthless? Ha! When I have 50k more gold then you at level 10 due to forging my own money and my own hunk of land because I produced a fake deed, we'll see who's got the worthless skill :D

Decipher Script started becoming a favorite skill of my DM's when they realized the potential power of forgery when in my hands. It also became a necessity for myself when they started turning these tricks back around on me. I was wondering why they had search warrants in a fantasy setting.

You might laugh at Gather Information now, but guess who knows the fatal weaknesses of every dragon and BBEG in the world, as well as the locations of several powerful artifacts?

Open Lock does stop being quite so useful when you've got lots of points in it, but for a kleptomaniac player like myself, it's absolutely integral to my late-night sticky finger operations through the king's treasury.

Profession is a powerful bluffing tool. No, seriously. I've always argued that I should get circumstance bonuses to disguise and bluff checks when I'm pretending to be a particular worker if I actually have ranks in that profession. Plus, as mentioned before, all shipwright and pilot professions are resoundingly good, as are some of the battle-specific ones like siege engines and soldier.

Use Rope isn't just for climbing. It's also for tying people up, building make-shift boats and fortresses, and using lassos. Rope is multipurpose.

If I had to pick one, though, Use Rope comes up the very least in my various roguery operations.

Reptilius
2007-02-03, 04:56 PM
Open Lock is useful, and I like it, but my players, 90% of the time, just have the barbarian smash the door down.

ColourDeaf
2007-02-03, 05:21 PM
To be fair to Profession, I've used it a couple of times.

Profession (Sailor) comes in useful on a ship, I find, and Profession (Siege Engineer) is funky, plus when I play a kobold, I feel obliged to take a couple of ranks in Profession (Miner)...

Most useless skill? Forgery, because with enough Bluff, anything is possible

Maryring
2007-02-03, 05:28 PM
My vote would go for... none really. All skills can be used in different situations, and Proffession... well when I DM, proffession can be a pretty darn good skill because of all the synergies and situations where it can be used.

zachol
2007-02-03, 05:58 PM
In general, I've used profession more often than decipher script.

I have seen decipher script used once, but there was an agreement between the DM and the PCs that it would be used in the campaign at times (Xen'Drik thing), and otherwise I've never seen a situation where a PC was annoyed that they didn't have that skill.


Profession... I occasionally have had some background elements that ended up being useful, including a situation involving a guild (where having that skill would result in a higher guild rank, which would end up being better for the character).

However, I have never seen a situation where it was a problem that no-one had a profession skill, and the fact that there isn't really a limit on how many different kinds there are makes it sort of a cheap shot for there to be a "make a profession (blah blah blah) check" in a game.

Chunklets
2007-02-03, 06:02 PM
I voted for Forgery, only because I'm in a campaign where deciphering script has been very, very important on a few occasions. I don't think I've ever been in a game where somebody took ranks in Forgery...

The Dirge
2007-02-03, 06:08 PM
I voted profession. It is by far the worst skill.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-03, 06:29 PM
Decipher Script: Made completely redundant by the 1st-level spell Comprehend Languages.
Except when there's no wizard, or he happens to forgot to memorize it, or learn. But I see your point. This is a 1sr level spell.
I always thought that it should be a class skill for wizards, seeing as they need to learn how to read others languages.

Forgery: Has anyone seen this used, ever? I never have.
Me neither. A great candidate for useless skill.

Gather Information: Every PC I've ever seen just does this one untrained and then uses Bluff or Diplomacy after the initial search.
I would just limit what you can get with Bluff and Diplomacy. And would force the player to interpret it. These are person-to-person skills. Gather Information is a "asking around" kind of skill.

Open Lock: It's cool at low level, but at higher levels what's the point when someone can just use the knock spell?
All wizards remember that spell? Well, when you want to enter silently in a room, not warn the whole Dungeon when the door go CLANG!!!!!!!, you can use open lock. Some magical doors cant open with Knock too, I think, and rogues can open some of these taking a higher DC.

Profession: It's a fluff skill, but if you want a fluff skill Craft is better in all ways. Craft lets you make stuff as well as earn money, while Profession seems to have no use except for earning a living. Now if you were allowed to pick something like Profession: Adventuring . . .
True.... leave it to NPCs.

Use Rope: again, it's a skill which is so specific I've never seen it taken.
Yeah, at higher levels, you'll probably have better Escape Artist, Climb, and Balance skills, and several Floating/Flight spells. This is good only to tie people, so they won't escape when your Hold Person wears off.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-02-03, 06:31 PM
The other thing about Gather Information, of course, is that it's one of those skills which lets you find out things which the DM would probably have to tell you anyway.

"Oh, we blew our gather information check, so we don't find the dungeon, shall we call it a night and play Soul Calibur instead then?"

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-03, 06:34 PM
Decipher Script: Made completely redundant by the 1st-level spell Comprehend Languages.
Except when there's no wizard, or he happens to forgot to memorize it, or learn. But I see your point. This is a 1sr level spell.
I always thought that it should be a class skill for wizards, seeing as they need to learn how to read others languages.
Yeah. A first level spell that has limitations appropriate to a first level spell. Like, say, codes and ciphers.

Edit: Also, it is a class skill for wizards. :smalltongue:

shaka gl
2007-02-03, 06:38 PM
I just cant believe theres people who actually think Open Lock is useless. Yeah, theres Knock, but thats a 2nd lvl spell, which slot you could probably use for something else....

Oh, I voted for Profession, since ive never seen it used. And I can guarantee you that my party uses Use Rope at least once per game...

clockwork warrior
2007-02-03, 07:01 PM
worse: profession (only used once by my warforged fighter, had profession:bear wrestler)

Khantalas
2007-02-03, 07:15 PM
Forgery: IOU notes. A large number of them. Debt to all officials without forgery ranks.

clockwork warrior
2007-02-03, 07:18 PM
Forgery: IOU notes. A large number of them. Debt to all officials without forgery ranks.a group i was in once forged a will so we could inherent a house (twas an evil game)

Rockphed
2007-02-03, 08:07 PM
a group i was in once forged a will so we could inherent a house (twas an evil game)

I don't think that is evil. Just highly self serving, and greedy. If you just need to get something out of the house before the real heirs show up, it might even be the best option for good characters.

ZekeArgo
2007-02-03, 08:14 PM
I remember one time my party got stuck because Knock doesn't work on barred gates and ropes and the party rogue was captured. We couldn't unlock the rope based gate on a treasure chest.

You know, you might want to take a page from Alexander and, well, cut the damn rope. Or hell, break through the grate. These things do have hardness/HP for a reason.

Deathcow
2007-02-03, 08:21 PM
I don't think that is evil. Just highly self serving, and greedy. If you just need to get something out of the house before the real heirs show up, it might even be the best option for good characters.

But doesn't "self-serving and greedy" describe Evil? Taking what you want, with no regard for whom you hurt...

And none of your so-called "useless" skills can hold a candle to the great grandaddy of all of them: 3.0 Intuit Direction. Whee! I can tell which way North is!

By the way, Gather Information ain't bad at all. The groups I'm in use it on a daily basis.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-03, 08:25 PM
i'd say use rope. Just use manacles to restrain and you can use regular ope easy enough to climb.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-03, 08:52 PM
i'd say use rope. Just use manacles to restrain and you can use regular ope easy enough to climb.

Yeah, but what about Shibari?

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-03, 09:39 PM
Yeah, but what about Shibari?That's a different kind of roleplaying, BWL.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-03, 09:42 PM
I'm suddenly reminded of my favorite use of the rope skill. In the campaign at the time, we had to protect a fortress overnight from possible invaders. So I decided to give the invaders a hand by tying ropes all over the walls for them to climb up from.

Except we were all stationed around each group of ropes, waiting for them to become taut. The moment they did, we broke a bottle of alchemical fire over the end of it. See, we soaked these ropes in lantern oil earlier. So when the invaders got about halfway up, we lit them up and then prepared a variety of other makeshift traps we'd prepared in that area to generally make all hell break loose.

And thus I was inspired by Home Alone.

Weezer
2007-02-03, 09:49 PM
I would say profession is the worst, Yay you can make like 4-5 gold per week.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-03, 10:00 PM
What about Swim? Really, unless you are in an aquatic based campaign, you don't often have a use for it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-03, 10:03 PM
That's a different kind of roleplaying, BWL.

What if your roleplaying character likes roleplaying?

Mike_G
2007-02-03, 10:33 PM
Gather Information: Every PC I've ever seen just does this one untrained and then uses Bluff or Diplomacy after the initial search.

Open Lock: It's cool at low level, but at higher levels what's the point when someone can just use the knock spell?



- Saph

We use Gather Info all the time. We do a lot of city adventures, and I use this to get hints on who works for whom, what kind of toughs/guards/henchmen the villain employs, where to find a good fence, etc.

Open lock is free to use, so why waste a 2nd lvl slot or charge from a wand? Anything that burns spells is better done without burning spells. We often empty our casters in the big battles, so having the extra slot is wirth quite a bit. Especially in a dungeon with lots of locked doors. Rogues get lots of points anyway, why not put a few here? Plus, it's nice to be able to open something in an AMF. Not that it comes up often, but if the party is known to lean on the spell, it's easy to trap them. Or throw them in the cells in Azure City.

The others, meh.

Jothki
2007-02-03, 11:05 PM
Appraise isn't useful when you're at a store. You've already got a guess what something is worth - what the shopkeeper is asking.

Why would what a shopkeeper is offering to a bunch of adventurers who are untrained in Appraise have anything to do with what an item is actually worth?

Skyserpent
2007-02-03, 11:12 PM
Profession, by far. Killing things and taking their stuff is FAR more lucrative than finding a REAL job.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-03, 11:33 PM
One note on Craft:
It is very useful if you have a lienient DM. I paid 1/3 of the price for fullplate at a third level campagn, and I started a Composite Bow with a +1 stenght rating(over 200 gp)on a 1st level campagn. Some of the weapons are pretty expensive, so having craft to make those or to make expensive armour is always nice. Plus, you can sell all your items at a lower price than the villiage Blacksmith, thereby getting some money for the cheaper weapons(daggers, ect)

Thrawn183
2007-02-04, 12:53 AM
I took forgery once. Thanks to the paladin in my party I never got to use it... :smallfrown: (it was cross class dang it!)

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-04, 01:20 AM
You should have forged a letter one night from the head of the church of the paladins god saying that he was to obey your every command as you were a holy servant of his god. With no ranks in Forgery the paladin would have to take it as true and you can forge away.

Or you just forge stuff when the paladin isn't looking and use it as appropriate. For example you forge a royal warrant telling all persons in the kingdom to obey you and speak of this warrant or your mission to no one. You are on a special mission from the king and you are to have the full resources of the kingdom at your disposal. Use it as needed and when the paladin asks how you got it just say that you are the kings trouble shooter and have been for years.

1 good bluff and your golden.

To all the people who say Forgery is the worst skill, you obviously aren't thinking this through. Need to see the king? Forge a letter of introduction from one of the lands nobles. Need to track someone down in a city? Forge a letter telling the guards to help you and wait a day.

HeinleinFan
2007-02-04, 01:21 AM
I don't know about how you fellows run your campaigns, but we've used everything here except Decipher Script.

Profession is terribly useful for NPCs in my world, especially as my elf rogue will presently be abusing Leadership to staff her university / vocational training school. Forgery - used several times, including an attempt by our foes to take our PCs' wealth. Gather info - to avoid metagaming, we use it to represent our characters' actions (a bard uses G. Info to learn about a powerful dragon, my cohort uses G.I. to find where I'm living, my rogue uses G.I. to learn about more powerful poisons). Open lock - I've been in a gaol that used antimagic on us. Use Rope is good for aiding Climb checks (tie it around your waist or make a sling to pull people up) and for interrogations.

Yeah, I think the only skill our party hasn't used is Decipher Script. We've even used the various obscure Knowledges, like Know (nature) Know (dragons) and Know (archetecture/engineering).

Ravenscroft
2007-02-04, 01:29 AM
I took forgery once.
Thanks to the paladin in my party I never got to use it... :smallfrown:
(it was cross class dang it!)
How did the Paladin acquire this knowledge?
Was it totally in character knowledge ,
not meta-gaming on the part of that player?
Having Profession : Scribe is a good combo with Forgery.

Sardia
2007-02-04, 01:38 AM
Forgery can be deadly in a military campaign- a good rogue can have a heydey "delivering" written orders from headquarters to the opposing force.

Not so good with attacking barbarian tribes, though.

random11
2007-02-04, 03:42 AM
Forgery
In the right campains, it can be very useful. It all depends on how much bureaucracy there is in your world.
Licence to use magic or to carry weapons, guild memberships, tex collectors on the main roads...

Open locks
Ok, "knock" can replace the skill, but your skill will never run out, can you say the same for magic?
Furthermore, sometimes the rouge's combination of skills will send him into a solo adventure since he is the only one that can both hide and sneak to pass the guards. In cases like that you can't depend too much on magic.

Lu-Tzao
2007-02-04, 06:46 AM
Decipher Script! Closely followed by forgery would be mine, in a recent campaign we use our Profession checks quite a lot, for example travelling through the woods, my Profession: (Herbalism) comes in handy to lay my hands on some extra coin. We end up using Use Rope a lot, because we tend to be a bunch that tie up and "interrogate" unconcious victims... err.. enemies... Our DM forces us to make Gather Information checks a lot of the time, but as none of us take any ranks in it, it ends up futile, so we just beat it out of them in the end. Open lock would be very useful in my group (Cleric, Monk and Fighter) but alas, we have no one with any ranks in it, so we just kick down the door, or use a crowbar/ram. Forgery is occasionally useful, in a past campaign it was used several times to forge deeds to houses and buildings in towns, but as for Decipher Script? I have never seen it used. Ever.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-04, 11:49 AM
What if your roleplaying character likes roleplaying?
Then you should definitely buy BoEF.

Khantalas
2007-02-04, 11:57 AM
Then you should definitely buy BoEF.

No! No sane person would that! Not even insane people would be willing to!

The abomination was mentioned! Run for your lives!

Jimp
2007-02-04, 12:51 PM
What is BoEF?

Khantalas
2007-02-04, 12:56 PM
What is BoEF?

The full name cannot be uttered at the fear of death, insanity and perversion. Although its last two words start with Ero and Fan, respectively.

mixmastermind
2007-02-04, 01:21 PM
I've actually used Proffession before, more specifically Proffession: Brewer. I was a dwarf who made my own beer, 'cause the stuff in the Tavern was "pisswater".

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-04, 03:00 PM
In the campaign I'm running right now, there's a general in the PC's army (above their rank) that brews the best beer in the world. It's an old family recipe that he was taught since childhood to make, then he improved it tenfold and, after his father died, refused to ever teach anyone else how to make it. He gets people to join the army by producing this beer, and explaining that he serves it for free to his men.

As per my explanations, you can get morale bonuses towards an upcoming battle for your soldiers by serving them foods and alcohol, and this guy's stuff is potent enough to practically make the morale check an instant success, no matter how dismal their mission seems.

Saph
2007-02-04, 04:11 PM
Well, looks like the results are fairly unanimous. Profession first, Decipher Script second, and Forgery third.

Although the question would have been a lot easier in 3.0 - even these three contenders couldn't possibly compete with Intuit Direction. :P

- Saph

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 04:37 PM
What is BoEF?

Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's quite horrifically broken. Yay for +10 to Int!

Rama_Lei
2007-02-04, 05:06 PM
Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's quite horrifically broken. Yay for +10 to Int!
Yes, I'm sure unbalanced stats are the worst thing about the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Really.

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 05:08 PM
Yes, I'm sure unbalanced stats are the worst thing about the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Really.

The endurance rules could use some work, true. And some of the prestige classes don't really fit the flavour of the rest of it. But neither measure up to the horrible, horrible Tantric feat, and accompanying magic items.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-04, 05:19 PM
I went with Decipher Script on this one. AFAICT, the only reason to take it is if you want to qualify for the Arcane Trickster PrC, which isn't all that great of a PrC in my opinion.

Evil_Pacifist
2007-02-04, 05:34 PM
I voted decipher script, I can't remember ever using it.

However, if we introduce 3.0 skills, we open up many more possibilities, such as Read Lips...

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 05:36 PM
However, if we introduce 3.0 skills, we open up many more possibilities, such as Read Lips...

Argh... I'd forgotten that one. I wish I could forget it again...

LotharBot
2007-02-04, 05:50 PM
Almost all of those skills are handy in the right situation. It's just a case of what kind of campaign you're playing. For instance, if you were playing a campaign set in a desert, swim would likely top the useless skills list. If it were a pirate campaign instead, swim could be one of the most useful skills.

You can almost tell what sort of campaign someone likes to run by what skills they say are useful/useless.

I'm currently DM'ing The Shackled City, and my wife is DM'ing a homebrew campaign. There are some skills useful in both campaigns -- hide/MS for the rogue, spellcraft and concentration for the casters, knowledge skills of various sorts. But there are some skills that only get used in one or the other (gather information, sense motive, decipher script never get used in hers; I think almost every skill gets used in mine because the authors intentionally worked up situations for most skills.)

As for the skills listed:

Decipher Script - very rarely used. I've only seen it on a scholarly wizard type, and it did come up once to decipher the gist of a story and code on a stone carving.

Forgery - my wife uses it on NPC's, but I never have for any reason. Would make sense in a political campaign though. Or, as others have mentioned, delivering orders to the other side in a military campaign.

Gather Information - incredibly useful in information-heavy campaigns like Shackled City. Especially if you rolled low on your bardic knowledge or knowledge (local) check. But, as all information-based skills go, it's likely your DM will come up with another way to get you the information.

Open Lock - must have. There are always so many locks around that my Wizards would have to fill at least a whole spell level with knock to get through them.

Profession - mostly useless. Can add color to a campaign, though -- our scholarly wizard took a couple points in "profession (cartographer)" and started selling the beautiful maps he'd draw during our playsessions. I thought he should've taken profession (real estate) and drawn those as floorplans, and also sold the areas we'd taken over for big bucks :P

Use Rope - has perhaps half a dozen uses, most of which can be overcome by using other spells or items. Useful to low-level rogues, but I rarely touch it at higher levels.

Heal - useful for NPC's and low-level PC's. Can also be used to replace a save vs. poison or disease. Very useful when somebody hits your wizard with a con-draining poison (so their fort save is like -2) -- when the secondary damage hits, they get the best of their d20-2 roll or your cleric or ranger's d20+15 roll.

Appraise - useful if the treasure in your campaign is not all shiny. Sometimes the low-level party doesn't realize that little carved statue lying behind the stack of gold coins is one of only 3 created by the founder of such-and-such group 3000 years ago, and is worth 2000 gp. As a DM, I like to occasionally work treasure into my game that you won't notice without making an appraise check.

Intimidate - sometimes useful for dealing with crowds, or at least getting their attention.

Know (geography) - useful for the survival synergy. Also useful because it tells you about the people of distant lands. We just had a party emerge from a portal some thousands of miles from home, and lucky them, the ranger AND the wizard have enough ranks in know (geo) to know to look for the dwarves under the blackrock mountain rather than spending another 3-4 days heading toward the halfling city beyond.

Know (nob/roy) - useful in info-heavy campaigns. Similar to a bardic knowledge check. (As with any of the information-based skills, if nobody has it, the DM will probably fudge in a different way to give you the information.)

Know (arch + eng) - never seen it used. I'd imagine it would be used to grant bonuses during siege warfare.

Handle Animal - never used it, but I know people who do. Telok's "herd of buffalo" trick is a good one.

clarkvalentine
2007-02-04, 06:48 PM
Something that makes Appraise more useful (in an intrigue-style campaign, anyway) is if you interpret it as a generic Knowledge (business) sort of skill.

GM: "Make an Appraise check."

*clatter* "Um... 17 plus my bonus of +9... 26."

GM: "OK. You spend an hour or two reading over Lord Highandmighty's books. There are several suspicious lines in the ledger that are unmistakable bribes to tax officials, and not only that, but it looks like he's been bribing the captain of the city watch, too..." *dun dun dun!*

Ravenscroft
2007-02-04, 10:18 PM
What is BoEF?
The Book of Erotic Fantasy.

Some of this book is actually quite useful , despite all the gratuitous tits & arse pics.
Parts of it are written in a mature fashion ,
but unfortunately it is let down by the silly fetishistic and sniggering schoolboy attitude in the rest.

Kiroho
2007-02-04, 10:46 PM
Appraise: As far as I'm concerned, any DM that is NOT using the lack of this skill against the players is letting them get away with murder.

Scenario 1: Sir Bashalot is buying a sword in a big city. He tells Master Tinbanger, local weapons merchant, that he wants the best Masterwork sword he's got. Master Tinbanger, being the greedy, underhanded type who would take advantage of a foreigner, hands Sir Bashalot a really pretty, yet thoroughly sub-standard weapon. Sir Bashalot is now the proud owner of a weapon that may very well break the first time he uses it.

Scenario 2: Cardinal Healsalot has been asked by his friends to pick up some extra diamonds because they figure that storming the castle might be somewhat more fatal for some than others. If he gets stuck with a pouch full of cheap glass imitations, those Raise Dead spells are going to fizzle awfully quickly. :eek:

Scenario 3: Just think of all the fun you can have with your Wizard/Sorcerer who has a pile of worthless spell components

I'd almost make them give me an appraise check any time they say "I'm going shopping for . . ." I'm more than willing to give bonuses for specific knowledge, but if you don't have any way to appraise what you're getting, you deserve what you're getting. And also, as DM, I'm not going to tell the players WHY their spells and equipment aren't working the way they expect them to. :confused:

And when the go to SELL anything, "That village blacksmith told you this was a masterwork dagger? You sure did get ripped off. I'll give you 25 copper for it."

There are just some things that players don't get for free, and knowledge is one of those things.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-04, 10:49 PM
There are just some things that players don't get for free, and knowledge is one of those things.

Yeah, forcing someone to waste a skill point per level just so they don't have to worry about getting ripped off at every turn--that SCREAMS fun.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-04, 10:50 PM
A merchant who sells crap won't stay in business very long. Ripping them off at every transaction is just unrealistic.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-04, 10:53 PM
If you're going to do that, you absolutely have to make Appraise a class skill for all classes.

Also, I find it a bit of a stretch that, for example, a fighter has never handled a masterwork weapon in his life before trying to buy one. That doesn't seem very realistic to me.

I don't think this is a very good idea.

heretic
2007-02-04, 11:00 PM
In defense of desipher script, you can use it to make and break codes. Still raher useless though.

barawn
2007-02-04, 11:02 PM
If you're going to do that, you absolutely have to make Appraise a class skill for all classes.

Also, I find it a bit of a stretch that, for example, a fighter has never handled a masterwork weapon in his life before trying to buy one. That doesn't seem very realistic to me.

I don't think this is a very good idea.

Yeah, I agree. Like I said before, Appraise is not for when you're in a store. It's for when you're searching and trying to figure out if something's worth anything or not.

Although for things that are basically "money in a different form" (gems, valuables) it would make sense to basically lower the amount that they sell for. People basically never buy gems other than spell components (and there, you wouldn't screw someone over as they'd know) so it's pretty pointless there.


A merchant who sells crap won't stay in business very long. Ripping them off at every transaction is just unrealistic.

True. But for rarer items, I'd disagree. Every merchant is going to try to offer less to someone who clearly doesn't know what something is worth.

TO_Incognito
2007-02-04, 11:06 PM
Appraise: As far as I'm concerned, any DM that is NOT using the lack of this skill against the players is letting them get away with murder.

Scenario 1: Sir Bashalot is buying a sword in a big city. He tells Master Tinbanger, local weapons merchant, that he wants the best Masterwork sword he's got. Master Tinbanger, being the greedy, underhanded type who would take advantage of a foreigner, hands Sir Bashalot a really pretty, yet thoroughly sub-standard weapon. Sir Bashalot is now the proud owner of a weapon that may very well break the first time he uses it.

Scenario 2: Cardinal Healsalot has been asked by his friends to pick up some extra diamonds because they figure that storming the castle might be somewhat more fatal for some than others. If he gets stuck with a pouch full of cheap glass imitations, those Raise Dead spells are going to fizzle awfully quickly. :eek:

Scenario 3: Just think of all the fun you can have with your Wizard/Sorcerer who has a pile of worthless spell components

I'd almost make them give me an appraise check any time they say "I'm going shopping for . . ." I'm more than willing to give bonuses for specific knowledge, but if you don't have any way to appraise what you're getting, you deserve what you're getting. And also, as DM, I'm not going to tell the players WHY their spells and equipment aren't working the way they expect them to. :confused:

And when the go to SELL anything, "That village blacksmith told you this was a masterwork dagger? You sure did get ripped off. I'll give you 25 copper for it."

There are just some things that players don't get for free, and knowledge is one of those things.

I don't agree that forcing players to make Appraise checks or get ripped off is a good way to make the skill useful. There is a reason why people in real life don't have to know a great deal about the product they're buying (be it a computer, a piece of furniture, or a spiffy painting) to at least know they arn't getting completely ripped off. Specifically, there are laws against blatantly false advertising, most merchants arn't bold-faced liars and thieves anyway, and if a random run-of-the-mill local merchant or established dealer in magic items has made a fortune by lying to every customer he sells to who doesn't know every detail of the product, that merchant would have been caught long before the PCs happened to wander into town.

Besides the above reasons, the strategy described isn't much fun for your players: Getting ripped off every single time you fail a roll is downright depressing. A skill that is normally worth skipping or at least optional suddenly becoming a "take it or suck forever" skill is never very enjoyable, either. I think rewarding a group for taking Appraise or punishing a group for not putting a single point in it by occasionally having that shady merchant on the street try to rip them off is a perfectly valid tack. On the whole, though, I think it's more fun and more reasonable for a DM who wants to make Appraise useful to go about doing it in other ways.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-04, 11:11 PM
Yeah, that is pretty much what I meant with my sarcasm. Thanks, TO.

TheOOB
2007-02-05, 12:00 AM
Profession can be useful, for example in a seafaring campaign i have to use profession(sailor) to keep my ship from hitting reefs during combat.

I'd have to say decipher script is the most useless the skill. The most common use for it (aside from synargy bonuses), is to read languages you don't know, but a simple 1st level spell can do that. It's uses aside from that are so limited that virtually no adventurer has the extra skill points to waste on it.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-05, 12:02 AM
Again, if you've never run into a cipher or an every-third-word code in the course of an adventure before, your DM isn't using the options available. If there's an instant codebreaking spell, I don't know what it is.

Sardia
2007-02-05, 01:24 AM
A merchant who sells crap won't stay in business very long. Ripping them off at every transaction is just unrealistic.

In defense of the merchant, he's not really "ripping them off" as much as noticing that the average adventuring party is loaded down with gold, gems, etc, when they wander into his shop. If people like that don't mind paying a premium for goods and services, why shouldn't the merchant help them do so?

Zeb The Troll
2007-02-05, 05:33 AM
Wow, so much to comment on. Fortunately, a lot of what I have to say has been said already. Here's something I'd like to add though (and why I think Profession is the least useful skill)...

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the way Profession works. Even in the many, many examples provided of Profession: Sailor, I believe it's not being used correctly. A more appropriate skill for the situations described is Knowledge: Sailing.

Profession is a skill that allows a person to make a living doing something. It implies knowledge also but typically what an adventurer wants his character to be able to do is knowledge only.

To use an example that was brought up earlier, Knowledge: Cooking means the guy can cook. Profession: Cook means he knows how to run a kitchen. Of course I wouldn't require anyone to take both (someone with Profession: Cook obviously has knowledge in cooking as well) but by and large the knowledge is what's useful, not the profession. Adventurers make money by, well, adventuring.

Now, some of you may have noticed that I used the term "least useful" instead of "must useless" and that was intentional. I agree with everyone who's said that none of these skills are useless, it's just a matter of application. Profession, for example, could be a hook for getting the party together in the first place. Depending on the setting, it could be used as the basis for many an adventure.

Let's take Profession: Sailor. A PC with ranks in this could, in point of fact, actually be the captain of his own ship and have the know-how to not only sail the thing, but how to manage the crew. A GM might judge that he'd know which cargoes or destinations are worthy of a higher fee than normal. The potential for story hooks is nearly limitless. The downside is that ropes the rest of the party into being the crew. But, hey! Maybe that's what they want!

Second note - on Gather Information (and other knowledge skill checks): We use them often in our games. However they are not pass/fail scenarios as many tend to use them. What I mean to say is that we always have one guy who's our "guy on the ground" who knows how to find out stuff. When we need to find out something, he rolls, and the result tells the GM how much he found out. To use the dragon's lair example: if we know we need to find out where it is, we go about our gathering of info. If our guy gets a 10 on his check we may get a general direction and distance (Yeah, it's south o' here about 15 miles or so.) which would entail some amount of stumbling about to find it and the pursuant extra encounter checks (which for us are bad because we tend to get quest xp, not encounter xp, so extra random encounters only serve to deplete our resources) but if he checks at 26, we may get directions and a map to it.

Another example, we'll use Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) this time. We've heard stories of demons gathering up people in the night and taking them away. On our way to the location we've researched where they might be taking them, we run across some armored men that appear to be escorting slaves coming from the direction we're headed. Well right away we can wonder if the two events are related (the demons are stealing people to sell them into slavery). But on a successful knowledge check, one of us might notice the heraldry and know which noble is participating in the trade. This isn't knowledge that we'd need to have to continue our adventure. We could always just kill the demons and pat ourselves on the back for stopping the trade and then get a new hook (or continue another as yet unexplored hook). But if we made the connection (and again, how well the check succeeded might lend additional information, such as the relations between the noble's family and the ruling family) then we have somewhere new we can take the current one.

Basically what I'm saying is that the GM isn't going to use this for information we have to have to continue, he's going to use it for information we can use once we get there. He's also used a particularly good roll during an intrigue campaign to give a little snippet of the bigger picture that maybe won't make sense right then but will help us figure out something later on (we write down almost anything we learn from these checks).

Kiroho
2007-02-05, 08:03 AM
In regards to the Appraise skill. As a DM, I wouldn't use it to screw the players every time, but they'd definitely meet NPCs every so often that would try to take advantage of them.

Telonius
2007-02-05, 09:01 AM
One of the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel has suddenly made Appraise a useful skill. Free "Identify" once a day? Sounds good to me.

Grey Watcher
2007-02-05, 12:04 PM
Well, it's all highly dependent on the kind of campaign you run.

Gather Information and Forgery are certainly much more useful in game where court intrigues or political machinations are important, but yeah, pretty useless in your average dungeon crawl game. They have their place, it's just not a place that you're going to find in every game.

Having Open Lock, Decipher Script, and Use Rope is nice so that your spellcaster friends don't have to spend spell slots on Comprehend Languages, Knock, and Hold Person all the time. Plus you can do it as many times a day as you want if you use a skill. A spellcaster only has so many spell slots available, and, if I were playing a spellcaster, I'd rather use my slots for something more fun that helping the Rogue be stingy with his skill points. :smallyuk:

Profession... Yeah, hard to imagine a situation where that's going to be any use.

DM: The ship to Plot City doesn't leave for a week, so what are you all going to do in the meantime?

Wizard: I'm gonna go craft that magic item I read about, and maybe scribe a scroll or two if I have time.

Cleric: I'll go brew some potions, just in case.

Rogue: I think I'll go make a few Gather Information checks about Plot City.

Bard: I'll go make a few Perform checks, drum up some extra cash.

Fighter-Who-Spent-Skill-Points-On-Profession: Good idea. I'll see if I can get a temp job for some extra money, myself.

Fighter-Who-Spent-Skill-Points-On-Useful-Things: Ummm.... I guess I'll just stay at the hotel and watch Will and Grace reruns or something....

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-05, 12:08 PM
Plot City? Is that anything like Gay City?

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/1/6/0169fa3d747a227943a11d45e7201e87.jpg

Grey Watcher
2007-02-05, 12:12 PM
Plot City? Is that anything like Gay City?

No, the Will and Grace reruns might actually be useful if it were. :smallwink:

HealthKit
2007-02-05, 12:47 PM
Fighter-Who-Spent-Skill-Points-On-Profession: Good idea. I'll see if I can get a temp job for some extra money, myself.

Fighter-Who-Spent-Skill-Points-On-Useful-Things: Ummm.... I guess I'll just stay at the hotel and watch Will and Grace reruns or something....


Yeah I think people underestimate the amount of time you might be stuck in one place for.
It may only 4-5 gold a week (of course, this can vary with the DM :smallwink:) but it's sure a lot better than nothing. It may not be much, but it could add up after a while.

Lilivati
2007-02-05, 01:11 PM
I once outfitted an airship with artillery using forgery.

Chris_Chandler
2007-02-05, 02:24 PM
I'd say use rope - it's far too specific. I mean, really specific. We don't have Knoweldge (cellular botany) or jump (only over hurdles) - why have such a specialized discipline? It should be a subset of a profession (sailor, perhaps?), or merged with climb and escape artist. The skill is given equal footing with Diplomacy and Spellcraft. I mean, Spellcraft!

"Oh, I know specifically what spell was just cast, giving me a tactical edge bar none."

"Well... I can tie a sheepshank, er, really well."

No. Just... no.

Jimp
2007-02-05, 02:30 PM
The endurance rules could use some work, true. And some of the prestige classes don't really fit the flavour of the rest of it. But neither measure up to the horrible, horrible Tantric feat, and accompanying magic items.

I'm surprised you were able to read it. I tried and gave up, it was just terrible.

Khantalas
2007-02-05, 02:35 PM
I once outfitted an airship with artillery using forgery.

"Huh?" is the question.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-05, 02:41 PM
Clearly, she used forgery on the DM's notes :D

daggaz
2007-02-05, 02:41 PM
Well I was kinda shocked to see Open Lock on the list at all. I feel somewhat better now that only two people actually voted for it. (And c'mon! Surely you will use open lock more often than profession! Even with knock..)
As far as spellcraft... I can definitely think of some VERY good uses. Like, you are in a big fight, and the BBEG wizard (who is very intelligent and a great tactician) casts 'dominate person' while gesturing at your fighter. He then allows said fighter to finish the skeleton he was fighting, before directing him over in your direction, asking for a quick buff up or whatever. Without spellcraft, you see the fighter shrug off a spell (made his save you think..) you allow the fighter to approach, and he catches you completely flat footed, bullrushing you through a mob of skeletons, all of which take an AoO on your surprised ass. WITH spellcraft, you see the BBEG cast dominate person, and you know the protection from evil just fell the round before (bad timing) and you are highly suspicious of the fighter and his strange tactics (usually he just keeps on swinging) and take appropriate measures...

Saph
2007-02-05, 02:48 PM
Well I was kinda shocked to see Open Lock on the list at all. I feel somewhat better now that only two people actually voted for it.

Including Open Lock was pushing it, but I thought that the poll should have more than just three entries.

- Saph

Magi_Ring_O
2007-02-05, 07:10 PM
Profession, in my opinion, is so much like craft that they should be lumped together.

barawn
2007-02-05, 07:44 PM
There is a reason why people in real life don't have to know a great deal about the product they're buying (be it a computer, a piece of furniture, or a spiffy painting) to at least know they arn't getting completely ripped off.

Yup.

But there aren't laws protecting people from getting ripped off selling things. Do people never actually sell things in their campaigns? Gems, etc? I don't get it - that's one of the things Appraise is for. That, and actually identifying the items of value.

JaronK
2007-02-06, 02:26 PM
Let's look at some of the RAW uses for Profession:

Profession Sailor: From Stormwrack. Used for everything from navigating a ship to combat steering, plus predicting weather for the next day. Critically important skill on the water.

Profession Seige Engineer: Also mentioned in Stormwrack and a few others. Operating any seige weapon, from Balistas to Catapults to shipboard weaponry of all kinds, requires Profession Seige Engineer checks.

So really, Profession is a pretty big deal if you're in a boat.

JaronK

Jewish_Joke
2007-02-06, 04:08 PM
Profession: It's a fluff skill, but if you want a fluff skill Craft is better in all ways. Craft lets you make stuff as well as earn money, while Profession seems to have no use except for earning a living. Now if you were allowed to pick something like Profession: Adventuring . . .


Unfortunately, adventurers are paid on commission...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-06, 04:11 PM
You can take Profession: Adventurer. It would allow you perform minor tasks to earn a handful of gp a week; it'll cover things like clearing people's basements of rats, beating up lone kobolds, etc.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-06, 04:12 PM
You can take Profession: Adventurer. It would allow you perform minor tasks to earn a handful of gp a week; it'll cover things like clearing people's basements of rats, beating up lone kobolds, etc. And stabbing blind, one legged elderly half-orcs who pee in superfluous buckets of wheat.

ElProgramer
2007-02-06, 05:03 PM
I once had a character steal a ship and escape to the ocean... only to discover that he didn't have any ranks in "Profession: Sailor". His bones weren't discovered for years.

Zeb The Troll
2007-02-06, 07:03 PM
Let's look at some of the RAW uses for Profession:

Profession Sailor: From Stormwrack. Used for everything from navigating a ship to combat steering, plus predicting weather for the next day. Critically important skill on the water.

Profession Seige Engineer: Also mentioned in Stormwrack and a few others. Operating any seige weapon, from Balistas to Catapults to shipboard weaponry of all kinds, requires Profession Seige Engineer checks.

So really, Profession is a pretty big deal if you're in a boat.

JaronKYes, because that's what someone decided to call it. I say those skills would have been more appropriately named Knowledge: Sailing or Knowledge: Siege. For example, I am licensed to pilot a sea going vessel up to 40 feet in length. I know how to pilot this vessel in a majority of circumstances. I do not, however, have the knowledge required to captain, or even work on, a trade ship for a living. Knowledge: boating vs. Profession: sailor.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-06, 09:30 PM
ya know on second thought i wish to change my vote to profession. I've NEVER seen that used in a game to any real effect.

HealthKit
2007-02-07, 03:25 AM
Suddenly I remembered that the prestige class "Luckstealer" from Races of the Wild requires ranks in Profession: Gambler.
How often does that come up? I haven't heard that profession mentioned anywhere else.

Telonius
2007-02-07, 09:36 AM
And stabbing blind, one legged elderly half-orcs who pee in superfluous buckets of wheat.

I think there are taverns who call that the "beer supplier."

Turcano
2007-02-07, 02:05 PM
And stabbing blind, one legged elderly half-orcs who pee in superfluous buckets of wheat.

But you need to do it quickly, or they'll just do it themselves.

KingEridani
2007-02-07, 02:31 PM
Lets see


decipher script.... When your'e playing a mainly fighty parties, and you run across evil writings in blood across an old goblin tent. when no one can speak abyssal, dichper script. or when there is secret codes in writing (useful in cityscape-esque games)
(although my DM let me swap out Speak: Skeet for Speak: abyssal)

Forgery.... A man's best friend in cityscape. I remember with a master disguese kit, forgery and craft my bard ruled the kingdom for a week.

Gather info is basicly something you put points in for the DM. of course it becomes basicly useless when you have, Knowalgde, or bardic knowadgle.

open lock? why is that up there? its open lock, you open locks with it.... yeah, its good.

Profession, ah the one i have been waiting for. you have to be smart to use this one. like in cityscape you could have profesion street urchin, or mechant. it gives circumstance bonus to rolls that are related. like if you were using a dipomacy roll to barter with a merchant or other person you might have to barter with then you get bonuses becuase A: youve done the same thing before, and B: you regognize thier technique or something. sadly though this ine is very circumstancal and often ends up being useless.

use rope.... ah its good for not only tieing and gagging baddies for interigation but spelunking. and similar stuffs. we bound a recurring chacacter's hand and when he (somehow...) managed to roll perfect 20s and we all failed our grapple checks, he ran away he just ended dieing from bleeding. (he couldn't reach for healing potion.

so in conclusion even though profesion can be useful it is often the least so i vote:
profesion...

Neek
2007-02-07, 02:40 PM
I don't quite get the hate behind Profession. While Profession provides the general populace with a means to make a living--in a very abstract way--it provides the characters with an idea of else they can do. Without ever really doing it. For example, Craft (Cupcake) only allows you to make cupcakes. Really good cupcakes. But the party's tired of eating them, and if it weren't for the fact that you're the party's Barbarian and have a ****load of HP over them, they'd kill you. However, the Illusionist with the Profession (Cook) may not be able to make cupcakes as good, can go out into the wilderness and find ingredients and make a decent meal so the party doesn't starve (if you're a DM that makes them care about eating. I do.)

ghost warlock's idea is great. Using Profession as not just an indication of a living, but also rank in an organization.

Forgery's fairly useful. But if you're crawling in dungeons, why do you need forgery? So the orcs can see you've got a letter of invitation from the BBEG? And yeah--what does counter Forgery? Sense Motive doesn't against it. Bluff doesn't go against it. Perhaps, Knowledge (My boss's handwriting) might. Maybe. (Hmm... if I had more than five ranks in Forgery, could I use that as a synergy bonus for my Profession (Bootleg)? :D)

Ultimately, though, all these skills are useful on some level. It depends on how you play the campaign, how you interpret the rules, and what you let your characters get away with.


I once outfitted an airship with artillery using forgery.

Heh. ;) Wrong type of forging.

Giscard76
2007-02-07, 02:46 PM
Profession all they way... useful only to flesh out a character and give him or here an intesting background or add flavor to the game.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-07, 03:06 PM
Yes, because that's what someone decided to call it. I say those skills would have been more appropriately named Knowledge: Sailing or Knowledge: Siege. For example, I am licensed to pilot a sea going vessel up to 40 feet in length. I know how to pilot this vessel in a majority of circumstances. I do not, however, have the knowledge required to captain, or even work on, a trade ship for a living. Knowledge: boating vs. Profession: sailor.

Knowledge is intentionally limited. Adding Knowledge (boating) to the list just complicates things when Profession can already have anything you want. Besides, it's not just the knowledge: It's experience, too.

PnP Fan
2007-02-07, 04:06 PM
Have to agree with Saph on this one. I've never seen it used, mostly because of play style with my gaming buddies. Though I have to admit, it has some uses, they just don't come up often in play. It's a nice skill to have for NPCs though. :-)

barawn
2007-02-07, 04:14 PM
Besides, it's not just the knowledge: It's experience, too.

That's a good point. Knowing how to control a boat doesn't mean you actually can do it.

Profession would be a helluva lot nicer if it gave synergy bonuses, though. Granted, a good player and a smart DM could do that on their own. No reason that Profession (Farmer) shouldn't give a synergy bonus to Handle Animal, or Knowledge (Nature) or others, Profession (merchant) shouldn't give a synergy bonus to Appraise, etc.

Hmm. Unless someone can think of a good reason why that's a bad idea, I think that's a houserule I'm going to use. Might make people actually take Profession ranks.

Zeb The Troll
2007-02-07, 05:25 PM
ghost warlock's idea is great. Using Profession as not just an indication of a living, but also rank in an organization.The problem with this is that it lets the player decide what his rank is instead of the organization.


Knowledge is intentionally limited. Adding Knowledge (boating) to the list just complicates things when Profession can already have anything you want. Besides, it's not just the knowledge: It's experience, too.You don't gain knowledge from experience? I do. Besides, I'm advocating getting rid of Profession altogether and lumping that in with Knowledge, so it doesn't really complicate anything, it just gives you somewhere else to put your skill points.


That's a good point. Knowing how to control a boat doesn't mean you actually can do it.Okay, that's a fair distinction, I suppose, but overly complicated for this context. It's true that some with a lot of knowledge of football or basketball may not do it as well as someone who does it for a living. However, I assert that barring any physical limitations, someone who knows about basketball would likely be better at it than someone who's never heard of it. And again, with the idea that knowledge comes from experience it wouldn't be too much of a leap to judge that more ranks in it is indicative (not proof, I admit) of some experience. (For your specific example, I would rule that reading a book about boating wouldn't give you more than one rank, if you will. "You know anything about boating?" "Well, I read Boating for Dummies." "You don't know squat.")


Profession would be a helluva lot nicer if it gave synergy bonuses, though. Granted, a good player and a smart DM could do that on their own. No reason that Profession (Farmer) shouldn't give a synergy bonus to Handle Animal, or Knowledge (Nature) or others, Profession (merchant) shouldn't give a synergy bonus to Appraise, etc.

Hmm. Unless someone can think of a good reason why that's a bad idea, I think that's a houserule I'm going to use. Might make people actually take Profession ranks.This would actually make the skill a lot more useful.

Indon
2007-02-07, 05:32 PM
Another application of Profession I just thought of would be "Profession: Logistics". Logistics isn't a craft skill, and while Knowledge: Logistics would tell you _how_ the red tape works, the Profession would actually let you cut it.

That would probably be an application for a military campaign, and is thus circumstancial, like most adventurer usage of the skill.

Grey Watcher
2007-02-07, 05:36 PM
I don't quite get the hate behind Profession.

I don't hate it. It's just, compared to something like Diplomacy or Climb it's... terribly unsexy. Literally the only use for it that doesn't involve all kinds of houseruling (ie synergy bonuses) or special cases (this ship you've been sailing on has just had its captain washed overboard, rather than playing out taking command, I'm just gonna resolve the whole thing by making a Profession (ship captain) check) is to generate extra cash during downtime, and Craft and Perform do that just as nicely and actually have other uses (such as making items or bolstering Bard abilities). And granted, extra cash is nice, but I'd rather do a side-quest or something. :smallbiggrin:

Neek
2007-02-07, 06:52 PM
The problem with this is that it lets the player decide what his rank is instead of the organization.

It depends on what sort of DM you are. I'm the sort that requires justification as to why skill points are being spent; once you gain them, you can spend on skills that you've demonstated practice in, or seek professional or independent practice in the future level. So, if skill rank was an indication of rank (i.e., maxing it would provide a promotion), I'd only say the skill points can be spent for that Profession (Soldier) once the promotion was given.

Of course, that can be unnecessary and unwieldly.


Okay, that's a fair distinction, I suppose, but overly complicated for this context. It's true that some with a lot of knowledge of football or basketball may not do it as well as someone who does it for a living. However, I assert that barring any physical limitations, someone who knows about basketball would likely be better at it than someone who's never heard of it. And again, with the idea that knowledge comes from experience it wouldn't be too much of a leap to judge that more ranks in it is indicative (not proof, I admit) of some experience. (For your specific example, I would rule that reading a book about boating wouldn't give you more than one rank, if you will. "You know anything about boating?" "Well, I read Boating for Dummies." "You don't know squat.")

There's a difference though, between playing a game and a knowing it. The mechanics can vary. Str + Knowledge (American Football) if you want to play defensive. If you're running a play, Dex + Knowledge (American Football). Syngergy bonus for Tumble, so on and so forth.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-07, 10:47 PM
But Knowledge (American Football) has nothing at all to do with actually playing American Football. There are tons of guys out there who can recite all sorts of obscure stats and have intimate knowledge regarding plays and strategy, but the only ones who could actually play American Football are those who are professional athletes.

By the same token, I could go online and read every FAQ on, say, Soul Caliber until I have a ridiculous amount of Knowledge regarding that game, but against somebody who actually plays the game, I'm going to lose almost inevitably (I've never played Soul Caliber, by the way).

Neek
2007-02-08, 01:09 AM
Sorry. I made the assumption that you wouldn't normally play American Football with a Knowledge check, and I was citing (with little explanation, my bad) an example where one could play from knowledge alone. I was in a rush typing that up, so I wasn't able to cite an example where it would be done as normal.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-08, 01:16 AM
And yeah--what does counter Forgery? Sense Motive doesn't against it. Bluff doesn't go against it. Perhaps, Knowledge (My boss's handwriting) might. Maybe. (Hmm... if I had more than five ranks in Forgery, could I use that as a synergy bonus for my Profession (Bootleg)? :D)
Forgery is opposed by Forgery.

onasuma
2007-02-08, 11:09 AM
In my gaming groups, i house rule in quite alot about proffesion. For example proffesion:woodcutter would give +1 to hit with an axe and other proffesion's other bonuses, so in my world desipher script has got to be the worst

Grey Watcher
2007-02-08, 11:37 AM
In my gaming groups, i house rule in quite alot about proffesion. For example proffesion:woodcutter would give +1 to hit with an axe and other proffesion's other bonuses, so in my world desipher script has got to be the worst

That's a little much, that it's basically Weapon Focus. I like the idea, but I'd make it a +1 to hit with axes versus wooden targets (trees, doors, Treants, etc....)

barawn
2007-02-08, 11:55 AM
That's a little much, that it's basically Weapon Focus. I like the idea, but I'd make it a +1 to hit with axes versus wooden targets (trees, doors, Treants, etc....)

Yeah, that's kindof what I was thinking, too - Profession (farmer) gives bonuses to Handle Animal if it's a typical farm animal (pig, horse, cow, dog, etc.), a bonus to Knowledge (Nature) with crops/animals, etc.

Honestly, the biggest problem with Profession is that it's SRD listed uses is ridiculously limited. Knowledge and Craft both have examples, and synergy bonuses. Profession should have a few common professions listed, with typical synergy bonuses, plus better examples of what those skills can do. The entire idea of "half your check in gp/week" as the basic use is just silly. It's not like all professions earn the same amount of money. You could easily balance it out by saying that Professions that earn more money (like, say, Profession (spellcaster-for-hire)) don't really get synergy bonuses, whereas Profession (farmer) gets quite a few.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-02-10, 05:38 AM
I wouldn't count skills that are useful for NPCs as actually being "useful". Indeed I'd argue that the NPC uses for skills are more problematic than anything else.

If there was no "Profession" skill, you'd just assume that non-adventurers got by somehow and not worry about it. *With* the profession skill, the economics of the gameworld get screwier than ever before.

Suddenly a farmer (Profession: Farmer) makes as much money as a lawyer (Profession: Lawyer) or a merchant (Profession: Merchant). Hell for that matter beggars make 1D20 + 4 / 2 GP a week just by asking for it and making Profession: Beggar checks.

Similarly with Forgery. You can have forged documents in a game without having the NPCs make Forgery checks. Skills are only really useful if they're skills the PCs will be using.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 11:56 AM
Similarly with Forgery. You can have forged documents in a game without having the NPCs make Forgery checks. Skills are only really useful if they're skills the PCs will be using.

Okay, but what if the PCs recieve the forged documents? How do they tell if it's fake?

Sisqui
2007-02-10, 12:03 PM
Besides the above reasons, the strategy described isn't much fun for your players: Getting ripped off every single time you fail a roll is downright depressing. A skill that is normally worth skipping or at least optional suddenly becoming a "take it or suck forever" skill is never very enjoyable, either. I think rewarding a group for taking Appraise or punishing a group for not putting a single point in it by occasionally having that shady merchant on the street try to rip them off is a perfectly valid tack. On the whole, though, I think it's more fun and more reasonable for a DM who wants to make Appraise useful to go about doing it in other ways.

Well, in the US we have the Better Business Beureau and the cops. In D&D you have very mad adventurers who were high enough level to get/buy the merchandise........... Ripping them off is a good way to be someone's next "chunk of XP" :smallwink: Especially for the morally dubious adventuring parties....

Abardam
2007-02-10, 12:17 PM
Problem with it is, Profession can be represented by other skills. Handle Animal and Knowledge(nature) for farmers, for example. Craft(food) for cooks. Knowledge(architecture) and Strength checks for builders. Diplomacy and possibly Intimidate for lawyers. For hunters, Survival and, uh, BAB?

marjan
2007-02-10, 12:51 PM
Why isn't heal up here? I see far more uses in gather information, use rope forgery then heal ever has.

Maybe but when you get poisoned or even worse deseased by let's say mummy rot on 5th lvl and you are rogue then heal can save your skin. At higher levels it becomes less useful but it is not useless.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 12:55 PM
Problem with it is, Profession can be represented by other skills.

But Professions are more than almagams of various skillsets. You need experience and knowledge regarding the profession itself. As I said above, football fans who have every play memorized will rarely be good enough to play football.


Handle Animal and Knowledge(nature) for farmers, for example.

What about techniques such as crop rotation? Efficient use of various farm implements? Knowledge of the nutritional and market values of various foodstuffs?


Craft(food) for cooks.

Now that, I agree with you on. Craft (food) if you want to be a cook. Craft (weaponsmithing) if you want to be a smith. Craft (sculpture) to be a sculptor. Craft (prose) to be a novelist.


Knowledge(architecture) and Strength checks for builders.

That makes builders sound like strong, bulky architects. Architects know how to design buildings. Builders know how to build them: How to efficiently lay bricks, how to erect scaffolding quickly, and how to deal with problems on a smaller level (eg "These bricks are weak and ill-suited for construction").


Diplomacy and possibly Intimidate for lawyers.

Lawyers also need to know the law. The need to know how to find loopholes (whether to exploit them or pre-empt an opponent who may exploit them). They need to recognize what arguments their opponents will use and prepare for them ahead of time. They need to know which expert witnesses to hire.


For hunters, Survival and, uh, BAB?

A skilled hunter is good at recognizing the wind and tracking worthwile quarry.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-10, 12:57 PM
Okay, but what if the PCs recieve the forged documents? How do they tell if it's fake?
Opposed Forgery roll. I believe I said this already.

JellyPooga
2007-02-10, 01:08 PM
ummm, I haven't read any of the replies to this thread, but just looking at the options I have a number of comments.

1) Why isn't heal the only option?

2) Why are any of those skills on the list?

2a) Decipher Script - Useful if you encounter ancient scrolls or other staples of high fantasy involving language (tomb carvings, etc.).
2b) Forgery - For when you just have to have the paperwork.
2c) Gather Information - For getting any information out of a community (as opposed to a single person), so you don't waste time rolling bluff/diplomacy 20 times.
2d) Open Lock - Umm, to open a lock maybe?
2e) Profession - You really believe that your character has been a fighter for his entire life and hasn't learnt some other skills? Yeah, right. (Even if that profession is Soldier or Watchman, it's still a Profession and entails certain knowledge that the class doesn't. No character should be allowed without at least 1 rank in either Profession or Craft IMO)
2f) Use Rope - O.k. you go ahead and climb free form down into the dungeon, I'll take the time to at least tie this rope around a rock and myself so that in the event of my falling I might actually survive...

Anyway, everything I've just said has probably already been covered, but I feel I had to say it.

barawn
2007-02-10, 02:34 PM
Now that, I agree with you on. Craft (food) if you want to be a cook. Craft (weaponsmithing) if you want to be a smith. Craft (sculpture) to be a sculptor. Craft (prose) to be a novelist.

Not quite. Just because you can cook doesn't mean you can make money doing it. You need to know where you can buy the food, what to sell it for, what regulations to satisfy, how to handle customers, etc. Profession (cook) should give you a bonus to Craft (food), Craft (food) should give you a bonus to Profession (cook), though.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 03:23 PM
Opposed Forgery roll. I believe I said this already.

Yes, you did, I was responding to Dan Hemmens's remark that you don't need to include the Forgery skill the game because you can have forged documents without worrying about ranks.


Not quite. Just because you can cook doesn't mean you can make money doing it. You need to know where you can buy the food, what to sell it for, what regulations to satisfy, how to handle customers, etc. Profession (cook) should give you a bonus to Craft (food), Craft (food) should give you a bonus to Profession (cook), though.

Well, I suppose a Cook never actually Crafts anything significant enough to merit a Craft check.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-10, 06:25 PM
Wait, forgery opposes forgery? Well... damn. We've always used decipher script.

Seemed more appropriate. We've never used any other application of decipher script before.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 06:56 PM
I dunno, I reckon Profession (Ninja) would be pretty useful...

MrNexx
2007-02-10, 07:59 PM
Screw you guys. I'm taking Profession: God.

Now, I may not make much money at it, but I can perform the basic tasks of that job. I'm taking this skill from now on, even when it's cross-class.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 08:04 PM
Aw, man. I wish I had thought of that. Don't you have to be Level 20 before the Skill Ranks start to reach the DCs, though?

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 08:06 PM
ummm, I haven't read any of the replies to this thread, but just looking at the options I have a number of comments.

1) Why isn't heal the only option?

If I had to guess, because of Healing Lorecall, which removes conditions when you cast your cure spells (in addition to the other benefits of the spell) based upon the number of ranks of Heal you have, thus making it handy enough that I changed my build strategy and dumped points in it after seeing the spell... With the Close Wounds spell, you can do this as an immediate action at range.

The other skills I like too, though I voted for profession being the weakest because the idea of needing to take profession:soldier, profession:wizard, profession:thief to make a living doing something with a dice roll that you make a living doing just fine in play seems like a waste of skill points that could go to making you better at making a living at doing it in game.

MrNexx
2007-02-10, 08:26 PM
Aw, man. I wish I had thought of that. Don't you have to be Level 20 before the Skill Ranks start to reach the DCs, though?

Dude, take a look at Profession in the SRD. It's ALL gravy.



Check

You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.



So, you make gold every week, can perform the profession's daily tasks (you know, smiting unbelievers, granting spells to whoever you want to, answering prayers, etc.), can supervise helpers (clerics, other spellcasty types), and handle common problems.

Only check? How much gold you actually net. It is, without a doubt, the SWEETEST skill in the game. How do I change my vote?

JellyPooga
2007-02-10, 08:26 PM
^^ Is Healing Lorecall a Feat? I don't recall it.

On Profession, the Profession: Soldier skill, for example, isn't anything to do with how to swing a sword or poke someone with a spear, that's what BAB and Weapon Proficiencies are for. It is, rather, representative of all the other training you've recieved that a non-soldier hasn't, such as how to set up a camp, stand on guard for long periods of time without peeing your pants, a certain degree of knowledge about rank structure, etc. Now, in this particular case you could spend some skill ranks in Survival and Knowledge: Nobility, but putting those ranks into Profession instead means that you know what a soldier knows and no more.

Someone who makes a living out of surviving in the wild (Ranger perhaps) would take ranks in Survival, you only know how to put up your tent and do a little foraging. Likewise, someone who has spent their life at Court or studied the ins and outs of said life (such as a spy would) would take Knowledge: Nobility, but you only know that when you see that many stripes with that gold star that he's a general, 'cos you were only a rank and file soldier and if you didn't salute him you were on a fizzer.

Now I know I've only given the example of a Soldier, but it is equally applicable to other Classes and Professions. You gave the example of Profession: Thief. I would rather make it more specific than that and say something like Profession: Pickpocket. O.k. so S.o.H. takes care of the actual theft in this case, but your Profession skill allows you a certain degree of Knowledge: Local to know where the best/easiest 'marks' are and where to find a fence, a knowledge of what equipment will help best when trying to pick a pocket (or two), gives you the ability to 'crowd run', for if you're caught and a little bit of Bluff to distract the 'marks' attention whilst you relieve him of his goods. Profession: Pickpocket would not, however, allow you to convince someone of a falsehood that you're telling them, because the type of Bluff that it gives you is not that type of deception.

In short, to me, Profession is a catch-all skill that will allow you to do a lot of things, but to a lesser (and very specific) degree than if you had ranks in that skill, as well as a variety of 'skills' that are not covered by the ones you can take ranks in.

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 08:35 PM
^^ Is Healing Lorecall a Feat? I don't recall it.

Spell from the Spell Compendium p.110 (Close Wounds is p.48)

JellyPooga
2007-02-10, 08:36 PM
ahh, that'll be why I don't recognise it. I don't have the Spell Compendium.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 08:45 PM
Healing Lorecall is originally from the Complete Adventurer, so it's in there too.

JellyPooga
2007-02-10, 09:05 PM
Healing Lorecall is originally from the Complete Adventurer, so it's in there too.

It is? Oh. Well, maybe I should recognise it then. Ah well, it can't be that good, 'cos I didn't remember it as being all that. If you can't cast this particular spell, the Heal skill still remains pretty useless. What should be the most common application of it (first aid) is worse than a Cantrip...Woo...Hoo...

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 09:45 PM
Ah well, it can't be that good, 'cos I didn't remember it as being all that..

That's one way of looking at it...

Dan_Hemmens
2007-02-11, 08:33 AM
Okay, but what if the PCs recieve the forged documents? How do they tell if it's fake?

Spot, search, Int checks, decipher script, or maybe they just can't.

Being able to spot a forgery should require some level of familiarity with the original, after all.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-11, 12:04 PM
Forgery Detects Forgery.

The PHB talks about circumstance modifiers based on how well you know whoever the document is from or that type of document.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-11, 12:15 PM
I think I like the opposing skill better as decipher script, though. I can't see why it would be such a bad move as a homebrew.

OcoM
2007-02-11, 12:16 PM
Well i had to choose one, so i choosed profession. Purely beacause it is not used by adventure gamers. They make money by adventuring, not working.

Actually i do think that Decipher Script is a lot worse beacause you'll just find a wizard with comprehend languages. But, like always, depends on the game.

Zeb The Troll
2007-02-11, 01:35 PM
I think I like the opposing skill better as decipher script, though. I can't see why it would be such a bad move as a homebrew.The problem with this is that "recognize fake" is not what "decipher" means. Literally, it means to un-cipher, decrypt, or uncover the hidden meaning or message. (I don't want to get into a debate about the difference between coding and ciphering, for this purpose they are the same.)

decipher: to make out the meaning of despite indistinctness or obscurity : to interpret the meaning of

Using it to identify a forgery completely outside the purpose of the skill.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-11, 03:18 PM
I just found a use for profession, all be it a very specific example. My group was just kidnapped by beastmen (a railroad plot we were totally killing them in rows but they just kept coming) and now my monk is a gardener. I got enough xp from the battle to level up and i put ranks into profession gardener. By doing so well I'm getting special privilegs from my captors that is making it a lot easier to help in our escape plans. Like i said somewhat specific in scope, but useful none the less.

Abardam
2007-02-12, 06:37 AM
But Professions are more than almagams of various skillsets. You need experience and knowledge regarding the profession itself. As I said above, football fans who have every play memorized will rarely be good enough to play football.
(stuff snipped)


Hmm. Yeah, most professions probably can't be represented by other skills. Which kinda means that they're useless outside of being used for the specific profession.



What about techniques such as crop rotation? Efficient use of various farm implements? Knowledge of the nutritional and market values of various foodstuffs?

As I said, Knowlege(nature), which could probably represent agricultural stuff.



A skilled hunter is good at recognizing the wind and tracking worthwile quarry.

Survival?

So, some professions can be represented by other skills. I suggest reserving Profession for everything that can't.

barawn
2007-02-12, 09:10 AM
As I said, Knowlege(nature), which could probably represent agricultural stuff.

Again, though - just because you know about it doesn't mean you know how to do it. Especially with jobs where time is a factor. Sailing's a good example - just because you know how to sail doesn't mean that you're going to remember fast enough to take down the mainsail before the wind blows it over.