Letting tier 4 and 5 have major bloodlines equalizing?

[CyberThread]

Just throwing this out, as a DM, would you allow a tier 4 or 5 character, take a major bloodline, to help equalize the ka-boom of tier 1 and 2?


Yes I know it would still not be equal, so lets ignore that bit

[Ruethgar]

Multiclass sing is a thing so that could get unbalanced quick. Monk 1/Major Bloodline 3/Wizard 1 would be a level 2 character with 4 caster level. It is even worse with martial adepts. A level 2 with third level maneuvers.

[CyberThread]

Well obviously, a tier 4/5 can't have a tier 1 class :), and all the adepts are tier 3.

[prufock]

Multiclass sing is a thing so that could get unbalanced quick. Monk 1/Major Bloodline 3/Wizard 1 would be a level 2 character with 4 caster level. It is even worse with martial adepts. A level 2 with third level maneuvers.

Adjust it so that it only progresses abilities for the tiers in question. Then the build you list only has CL 1, but has monk abilities at 4.

OP are you talking about a bloodline for free?

[TuggyNE]

If you adjusted the original proposal such that you were required to take bloodline levels per PBMC's interpretation (http://minmaxboards.com/?topic=5019) just before your Xth class level of your T4/T5 classes, combined, then it would be pretty ironclad. It wouldn't really resolve imbalance, but it would give a few more nice things.

[T.G. Oskar]

Depends on how it's done.

Let's go with the basics: you take a Major Bloodline, and at level 3, 6 and 12 you have to take a "level adjustment" that nonetheless works with all classes. However, to gain a Major Bloodline, you MUST start as a member of a Tier 4 or Tier 5 class.

With the most classic interpretation...it depends on whether you allow multiclassing between Tiers, getting Prestige Classes, or forcing a single-class progression.

If you mix classic interpretation, multiclassing between Tiers and allow Prestige Classes, then there's no big difference: you start as one of the Tier 4/5 classes, get another class, and progress that one. Sure, you'll be delayed at least 4 levels, but you might be capable of balancing that out. Fighter 1/Wizard X/Major Bloodline 3/Eldritch Knight 10? Classic Gish, Int-specific, but you get to be treated as a 4th level Fighter for feats and have a CL of 19th. Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 5/Major Bloodline 3/Swiftblade 9? You'll miss the capstone, but you'll get decent spellcasting at CL 17th, Insightful Strike and most of the Swiftblade's class features. Basically, no change. Note that I'm not considering that you get double CL stacking with Major Bloodlines, or else those CLs would be 22 and 20, respectively.

If you mix classic interpretation, disallow multiclassing between Tiers but allow PrCs, it's all about getting the right PrC for your buck. Mostly, you'll have to rely on classes that depend a lot on their class features. Monks and Paladins would benefit quite a bit, particularly if they get classes that further boost their potential (for example, Paladin/Fist of Raziel, or maybe Monk/Shadow Sun Ninja, for the IL).

If you work only with the classic interpretation but disallow both multiclassing and PrCs, you'll notice that the Monk and the Paladin will benefit the most from the effective level adjustment, as they contain a lot of class features that depend on your level: Monk has Stunning Fist uses, DC for Quivering Palm, WCL for Abundant Step, Wholeness of Body healing pool, duration of Empty Body and, if you stretch it, progression of unarmed strike damage, AC bonus, fast movement progression and Slow Fall; Paladin gets damage of Smite Evil, CL for its spells, special mount progression and Lay on Hands healing pool. Other classes might lose something (the Fighter loses ONE bonus feat, for example) rather than gain some.

The other possible interpretation, and the one I believe applies here, is adding the benefits of a single Major Bloodline without the repercussions of taking an effective Level Adjustment. The importance of this interpretation is that you directly compare the benefits of the Bloodline, rather than the marginal (but still broken) benefit of stacking class levels.

If you use the alternate interpretation but allow multiclassing and PrCs, you'll have to consider whether the bloodline abilities are acquired through Tier 4/5 class levels or merely requiring 1 level in an Tier 4/5 class to get Bloodline skills each level. Using the second interpretation is not as different as the "classic/multiclass/PrC" combination, effectively adding +1 LA which just happens to have some class features in exchange for a massive boost in power; in effect, it'd be the same as taking a template. On the other hand, if it's based on how many Tier 4/5 class levels you take, then you'll be working with the best combinations and attempting not to multiclass until you get the best Bloodline bonuses.

If you use the alternate interpretation, disallow multiclassing but allow PrCs, then you're either effectively extending the checkpoints for some classes (Monk, Paladin, Swashbuckler, etc.) until they get a decent Bloodline ability and then drop off to a PrC, or doing pretty much nothing (you get Bloodline abilities based on your character level, so you're merely looking for one that adds the free feat you're looking for, or the one that blends well with your skills).

If you use the alternate interpretation, allow multiclassing but disallow PrCs, then it starts to look better, because you're effectively comparing Tier 4/5 + Bloodline or Tier 1/2/3 without Bloodline. I'll leave that one for later. If your bloodline abilities are based on character level rather than Tier 4/5 class level, then it's all a question of whether the bloodline ability is better now than the class feature you'll receive.

If you use the most stringest interpretation (only levels in Tier 4/5 can get Bloodline abilities, you can't multiclass or PrC), then it's all about comparing if the addition of the Bloodline abilities effectively saves the classes, which is what IMO the OP is asking for. In this case, classes that rely upon physical feats and are somewhat MAD push ahead, while others are mostly unaffected.

Take, for example, a Paladin with the Celestial or Gold Dragon bloodlines: they get +1 to three scores they need, a +4 to Listen and Spot (which they might benefit from) and a +2 to Concentration and Sense Motive (the last one is great against Bluffs and lies), one extra use of Smite Evil, energy resistance 5 to three types of damage, extra natural armor and damage reduction, +4 to Initiative rolls and Protection from Evil once per day, OR Power Attack, +1 to two scores they need and one they don't, a myriad of bonuses to Heal, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Jump, resistance and eventual immunity to fire attacks, a +2 to natural armor, water breathing and a breath weapon that deals so-so fire damage. In the first case, you have half the benefits of a Lesser Aasimar (a +1 to two scores instead of a +2, the resistances and bonuses to Listen/Spot) and some of the benefits of a Celestial Creature (smite evil, DR) with a free SLA on top. The second one is more geared to a frontliner Paladin, sorta like 4e's Dragonborn Paladin and its breath weapon effect usable whenever necessary.

In neither of both cases you get something that truly makes them stand to a Tier 1 or Tier 2 at all. The Celestial Bloodline Paladin ends up just the same as before, but if the rolls weren't that good you can alleviate some of the damage (or, if you go for point-buy, you can spend the points better), and you can get the effects of Lesser Aasimar/Celestial Creature without going for the Template; the Gold Dragon Bloodline Paladin is somewhat similar, but since you eventually get Power Attack, and it happens to offer Intelligence, it helps on two of its problems (lack of feats and lack of skill points).

Case 2: Monk with Gold Dragon bloodline, Celestial Bloodline, Devil Bloodline and Titan bloodline. The first example adds some much needed Strength and Constitution to a very MAD class, but no Wisdom bonus; it also grants an AoE attack, which they definitely need, and Power Attack for free which would be great if they could hit better. The second example would be much like adding Celestial to Lesser Aasimar and cutting about half the benefits, and you don't care that much about Charisma anyways so it's mostly rounding benefits. Devil Bloodline is worse, but you happen to get Dodge for free if...you want to go Spring Attack or something? Darkness won't do any good (you can't see in the dark) and the rest of the benefits aren't so great. Titan Bloodline, however, would be hilarious on a Monk: good Str and Con, bonuses on most class skills, Levitate as an SLA, Bestow Curse as an SLA, Power Attack, good natural armor, SR and DR (the last one gotten WAY too late, but at least it overlaps with your 20th level DR bonus).

Looking at those examples, you'll notice that I mentioned something in Paladin that resumes it all: it'll add to the classes what adding a template would, but spread through many levels instead of added all at once. Celestial? Lesser Aasimar with Celestial template. Demon or Devil? Lesser Tiefling with Fiendish template. Draconic Bloodlines? Nerfed Half-Dragon, but your type won't change to dragon. Titan Bloodline? Sorta like Half-Giant but with some SLAs instead of Stomp, and no Giant or Outsider type (the Half-Giant reference is for Wield Oversized Weapon, anyways). Adding that to a class won't make it change its tier unless the two combinations happen to synergize almost perfectly, and even then it might not be enough for you.

In short: no, not really. It'd be the same as adding a template or as if you were making a Dragonborn character. It won't equalize anything because the effect of a race in a character isn't transcendental enough to raise it a Tier.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It could help close the gap between 4/5 and 3, but it won't bring any of them any closer to 2, let alone one. It could make for some interesting customization though