3.5 How to Give a Campaign a Skyrim-like Feel?

[Vrock_Summoner]

I read some posts by someone (who I hope will post here) who mentioned in passing in a thread that her DM runs games in a very Skyrim-like fashion, and it got me curious. Aside from probably making it E6, what would you guys do in running a 3.5 campaign to make it feel Skyrim-esque?

I'm not asking for links to homebrew; I know that some of the mechanics of Skyrim, particularly Shouts, are unworkable within the core rules.

What I'm wondering is, with as few changes to the rules themselves as possible, how could a DM and players get the Skyrim kind of feel from a story, playstyle, and world-building perspective? Whatever "like Skyrim" might mean to you, I want to hear what you all think about this.

[Windstorm]

some of it is probably liberal application of the frostburn splat, along with starting at level 1 and slow xp progression.

if you want to get literal with the dragon shouts, everyone is gestalt dracolexi. :smalltongue:

if you're referring to the "martial feel" of skyrim, I'd just ask your players to stick to ToB classes as that's the easiest way to achieve that without large amounts of work.

if we're being more heavy-handed with the rulings, I'd probably outright ban druids and wizards, maybe even all full-progression casters, or put heavy limits on spells.

[veti]

A political Skyrim-like feel would be just "semi-autonomous city states with a single 'high king' figure, but a lot of independence, and optionally a civil war going on."

A cultural Skyrim-like feel might be mountainous, rugged, vaguely Nordic people who set a premium on physical strength and smithing, and a lot of cultural tension between humans and elves.

If you want the playstyle to feel like Skyrim, that's hard to do within D&D rules. You'd have to figure out some way to give virtually all characters low-level spellcasting, and basically ban all spells much above 3rd level. (But mundane classes could go higher than E6.)

[Snowbluff]

I know that some of the mechanics of Skyrim, particularly Shouts, are unworkable within the core rules.


*snrk* Oh, to be young... Dracolexi sounds interesting. Basic spells cover shouts... entirely. There's no question about that.

Anyway, if you want to emulate Skyrim, make sure to copy over the glitches. Oh! And recycle your dungeon assets.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Skyrim combat (well, Elder Scrolls combat) is fast and lethal at any level. E6 sounds like the way to go to me; even high-level NPCs in TES tend to be "squishy." If anything I'd look into dropping HP altogether for something like the Wounds system from Unearthed Arcana. Mundane weapons should be dangerous, especially arrows---nobody from a raging barbarian on down is immune to an arrow in the throat. I'd consider allowing called shots into the game, maybe even a simple hit-location system such as rolling a d6: 1 = legs, possible move penalty, 3-4 = body, 5 = arms, possible attack penalty, 6 = head, count as a critical hit. Someone will probably scream bloody murder at how unbalanced that is but IME they're fine for casual games if no one's trying to game the system.

Definitely give the spell list a careful overhaul and dump stuff that's too powerful, but maybe also look at the spell lists for Morrowind because compared to the other TES games it has a lot more cool stuff. You probably only need 3-5 spell levels and you might consider making magic a skill (or skills broken up by school) requiring ranks allowing access to higher-level spells.

I actually have played a couple D&D games set in The Elder Scrolls world and we worked out a basic system of giving spells a Magicka cost by level, or cost by round depending on the effect. Magicka for each character was determined by taking (Intelligence + Will) x 2 + 1/2 level, rounding down (with a +30 bonus at level 1 for High Elves).

Hope at least some of this was helpful to you, good luck with your gaming!

[Windstorm]

One thing that you could do to replicate the magicka system is use the psionics rules, and one of the excellent conversions of the normal casting system to that.

[Quiddle]

Create a bunch of items like the bucket of impairment: while worn I the head the wearer doesn't notice that he is blind and is rendered blind. They will continue to act as if they weren't blind.

On a serious note, make the world have interesting characters and groups and maintain the relations of the party and different groups as they ally with one side or the other.


Edit: psionics is one of my favorite subsystems!

[Piedmon_Sama]

Actually, thirding that you should just adopt the power points progression from the Psion or Psychic Warrior to make TES-style Mages and Spellblades rather than use my iffy homebrew. Not sure why I didn't think of that *facepalm*

[NikitaDarkstar]

Don't forget to allow eating food in the middle of combat to heal injuries!!

More seriously though, I'd definitely look into Frostburn, along with actually tracking things like arrows, food, water, etc. for a slightly grittier feeling. You may also want to look at using the Armor as DR rules instead of the regular armor to AC. You'll get hit more often, but take less damage if you wear good armor, which should help give some of that Skyrim battle feel.
Also, make sure to actually use terrain and weather rules. Skyrim is a rugged land that's not easy to traverse if you stray away from the roads, those rules would help simulate that.

Magic most certainly needs to be kept nice and low. While it's not exactly rare in Skyrim it is NOT trusted.

[Vaz]

Dragon Magazine has a half-dragon template for a Cobalt Dragon; said dragon has a Bullrush effect. Optimize it enough and you can do it all day long as your primary method of attack.

You could then homebrew some new feats for flexible Dragon Breath usage; e.g expend Dragon Breath for Ethereal Jaunt, Dimension Door, Calm Emotions/Charm Animal, Control Weather, Lifesense.

You could make Vampire more common, but rather than force the LA use a progressive system of changes; possibly removing some of the none Vampire abilities.

[hemming]

You may also want to look at using the Armor as DR rules instead of the regular armor to AC.

With the above, but with shields counting to AC (to simulate blocking)

An ancient dragon raising other dragons from the dead would scare the pants off me in D&D in a way it did not in Skyrim

The mix of local territorial factions/politics overlaid with large scale imperial politics is nice

Would be tough to keep the mage/fighter/thieves guild set-up - I love the idea of any player being able to advance in all three if they have the skills, but not sure it could work with a non-split party

[Zweisteine]

Only a very limited selection of spells are allowed, all casters memorize spells as a sorcerer, but can learn new spells as a wizard, and you use the a combination of the spell point and cool-down time variants (that second one has an official name, too).

Some elements from frostburn come in handy, but not many.

The best way to go a out this would probably be extensive homebrew.

And don't forget the constant dragon attacks! (And dragons lose their spellcasting, mostly.)

[Threadnaught]

I'm not asking for links to homebrew; I know that some of the mechanics of Skyrim, particularly Shouts, are unworkable within the core rules.

Frostburn (http://dndtools.eu/classes/stormsinger/) can help.
Not only will you as a DM, be able to build a world similar to the one found in Skyrim and populate it with ice based creatures, but Fus Ro Dah is a thing Bards can use, provided they stay Bard up to 5th level and go into that PrC.

No homebrew, all official stuff. Dovahkiin can exist as a 6th level character, Bard5/Stormsinger1. :smalltongue:


Considering that Bards are Warrior Mage Thieves, this is the perfect PC Class.

[Ruethgar]

And don't forget the constant dragon attacks! (And dragons lose their spellcasting, mostly.)

Don't forget that dragons can only speak one word of draconic each(except Alduin)...maybe they were all brain damaged from the resurrection process.

[The Insanity]

You make it a boring hack'n'slash.

[Snowbluff]

You make it a boring hack'n'slash.

Oh, and don't forget to dumb down the RPG elements!

[Threadnaught]

Don't forget that dragons can only speak one word of draconic each(except Alduin)...maybe they were all brain damaged from the resurrection process.

Yol Toor Shul (Fire Breath) and Fo Krah Diin (Frost Breath) are each three words.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Martial classes should be... well, you could use standard mundanes, although I'd encourage something like the following:

Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage, with feats available to make desert wind maneuvers do cold or lightning damage.
Ranger//Scout gestalt, minus spells
Factotum, with a full sneak attack progression instead of spells


For casters, I'd use

Warlocks for "normal" mages, with the ability to full attack with their eldrich blast, deal fire/cold/or lightning damage (chosen every time they shoot) with it instead of untyped, and more invocations known.
Truenamers for "full" casters, using a proper fix-- I like Kyeudo's Book of Words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217713), myself.


To allow Elder Scrolls-style multiclassing, use PrCs along the following lines:

Abjurant Champion/Eldrich Knight progress both maneuvers and truenaming/invocation.
Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster progresses truenaming/invocation.
Nightsong Enforcer (minus fluff) progresses maneuvers.

[Big Fau]

Don't forget that dragons can only speak one word of draconic each(except Alduin)...maybe they were all brain damaged from the resurrection process.

Only the low-level dragons use single-word shouts. Once you get to the level 50+ range they start using multiple shouts, each with all 3 words. And Legendary Dragons are very capable of just shouting you to death (or hitting you with Marked For Death and wailing on you in melee).

[The Insanity]

Oh, and don't forget to dumb down the RPG elements!
But also make the graphics beautiful and add nude mods.

[Snowbluff]

But also make the graphics beautiful and add nude mods.

Take it a step further and make all of the dragons Fluttershy.

[Threadnaught]

Only the low-level dragons use single-word shouts. Once you get to the level 50+ range they start using multiple shouts, each with all 3 words. And Legendary Dragons are very capable of just shouting you to death (or hitting you with Marked For Death and wailing on you in melee).

Shouts can be Absorbed with Spell Absorption. A Vampire PC may have 99-100% Spell Absorption without accounting for the very rare equipment that grants it.

If you play a Vampire with the Necromage Perk, then select the Atronach Perk and activate the Atronach Stone, you're more resistant to Magic than anything in 3.5 with Magic Immunity.
Though Summons have the same effectiveness against you.


I've only just started on Dawnguard and Dragonborn, but I know enough about the base game to...

Viik naan folaas aanne do suleyk ahrk heim joorre finiu fah ro.

Try saying that three times fast, I dare you. :smallamused:
It means: Defeat any wrong ideas of power and forge (temper) mortals' (people's) eagerness for balance.

[Abithrios]

Do not forget to make mundane crafting overpowered.

Ok, simply more viable would probably be enough

[Shinken]

With the above, but with shields counting to AC (to simulate blocking)

That's already how armor as DR works.

[hemming]

Do not forget to make mundane crafting overpowered.

Ok, simply more viable would probably be enough

Pun Pun just uses the fortify restoration/alchemy loop!


That's already how armor as DR works.

Cool

[Findaleus]

I'd consider allowing called shots into the game, maybe even a simple hit-location system such as rolling a d6: 1-5 = knee, retire from adventuring, become a guard 6 = anywhere else

Much more representative of Skyrim combat, I think. :smallbiggrin:

[veti]

I second the recommendation to look at the magic in Morrowind, it was way cooler back then. Flying, teleporting, chameleon, blindness, deafness, flying, speed, paralysis. Did I mention flying?


I'd consider allowing called shots into the game, maybe even a simple hit-location system such as rolling a d6: 1 = legs, possible move penalty, 3-4 = body, 5 = arms, possible attack penalty, 6 = head, count as a critical hit.

A basic hit location system we used for years with 1e:
1. Only roll location on a critical.
2. Roll 1d8. 1-2 = legs, 3 = groin, 4-5 = torso, 6-7 = arms, 8 = head
3. Then roll 1d10: 1 = limb severed or mangled (insta-kill in locations 4, 5 or 8), anything else = some lesser penalty.

Results may be modified by weapons and armour. (A 2-handed weapon only needs to get a 1-2 on the d10, a decent helmet allows a saving throw against insta-kills in the head, etc. I think the most overpowered weapons could sever on a 3, or maybe even a 4 - don't remember for sure.)

It worked really well for us - the chance of insta-kills is always nice, especially against bosses, but they're rare enough to be special, and unlikely to take down more than 1 PC per combat...

One thing to keep in mind about hit location systems in general: they put a premium on critical hits. Most anything you can do to improve your crit resistance, or crit chance (*cough*crafting), is always worth it.

Edit: another thing about a "Skyrim feel": you have to do your own crafting. Smiths will sell you raw materials and basic items, and let you use their tools if they like you, but they won't actually make anything nice for you. Also, you'll never pick up anything really nice - I suspect items have to be individually crafted for the owner, and are just regular items for anyone else (this doesn't explain why you can sell them at increased prices, but it's my headcanon, OK?). This, combined with the horrible broken overpoweredness of crafting, means smithing skills are a must-have.

[Threadnaught]

I second the recommendation to look at the magic in Morrowind, it was way cooler back then. Flying, teleporting, chameleon, blindness, deafness, flying, speed, paralysis. Did I mention flying?

In terms of overall PC power (by the mechanics), I have no idea where Arena stands, but I do know this.

Daggerfall > Morrowind > Oblivion > Skyrim

Skyrim has by far the weakest PC, sure he's powerful when specced for Stealth, or when using Crafted Gear, Potions and Poisons, but no amount of thu'um can match the raw power of the Champion of Cyrodiil. Sure the CoC cannot enchant as well as Dovahkiin, but they have a much easier time laying the smack on enemies.

Then there's Morrowind's PC, the Nerevarine can indeed fly and teleport, but they can also have constant regeneration of Health and high miss chance too, you don't get this in Oblivion or Skyrim. Yeah sure, you regenerate Magicka in Oblivion as long as you don't have the Atronach Birthsign and you regenerate Magicka in Skyrim as long as you aren't using it, but there are triks for regaining Magicka in Morrowind. Altmer with Atronach Birthsign and Constant Effect Sanctuary 20-50 points and Restore Health 1 point in Morrowind, is practically invincible.

In Daggerfall... Get Spell Absorption, maximum Magicka possible and create a nice cheap AoE, get Intelligence and Willpower to 100 as soon as possible. Become a walking nuke fuelled by your own nuclear blast.

[Piedmon_Sama]

veti: that hit allocation system sounds nice. Especially helmet = saving throw. Finally a reason for helmets to exist!

Also agree that for a 'skyrim' feel, mundane crafting should be expanded. Consider going up to +2 enhancement and allowing the keen enchantment with ordinary weapons, albeit at higher Craft DCs. +3-+5 should be limited to certain special materials like Glass, Amber and Ebony (which despite the names are actually kinds of metal :v ). Maybe even make enhancing extant weapons with further craft checks an option--imagine improving the same battered steel sword that you started out slaying bandits with, until it's a +3 keen longsword of speed. As an alternative for blunt weapons, invent some kind of stunning or knockback ability maybe.

edit: for that matter, treat soul gems effectively as spell scrolls that can cast any spell for crafting magic items, and make using them as a Use Magic Device check (and make sure everyone gets Use Magic Device, which you might want to connect to Intelligence rather than Charisma).

[Zweisteine]

Don't forget that dragons can only speak one word of draconic each(except Alduin)...maybe they were all brain damaged from the resurrection process.

You hear them talk sometimes... Paarthurnax, for example, talks quite a bit, with a few words in draconic in most sentences. Some named dragons speak, and when you see Alduin bring one to life, they sometimes talk.

They just never talk in full draconic to you, because either
a. they're too busy trying to slaughter you or
b. they know you don't speak draconic, so they don't even bother trying.

[Honest Tiefling]

World building would be difficult, given that even Skyrim has mentions of older games and more history then I care to memorize. Given the number of stories/plotlines, I would also find this daunting.

What I would recommend is to get everyone in the group to mention what they did and did not like of Skyrim, and go from there. Maybe it isn't the Nordic feel, but the idea of raiding these anicent tombs. Maybe some loved the Dark Brotherhood quest, but felt that the Theive's Guild quest was annoying. Some people don't even bother with the Civil War.

For some reason everyone who I have ever talked to in person who played the game played a Khajiit or an Argonian, especially the Khajiit. If your group is the same, I'd stat those up pronto.

Personally, I liked the idea of a sheer amount of history to the world, from the Fornsworn being displaced, the rise of the Emperor from Nordic stock to then rule over the Imperials, the fall of Morrowind, etc.

As for playstyle, I think tweaking the magic is the first thing to do. Mages are powerful, yes, but they can't make reality shut up and have to ask permission to continue. Enchanting (And soul gems, as questionable as that might be) would have to be carefully considered. However, the ability to customize gear would be pretty nice.

Why bother importing everything over when you can cherry pick what you do and do not like?

[Talya]

Taking an arrow to the knee means your character must retire to become a city guard.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I can't resist mentioning the real reason the Septims (e.g the Emperors who descended from Tiber Septim/Talos/Whatever you wanna call him) are nords is because in the early games there was no imperial race--their insertion into Morrowind is one of the big retcons in the Elder Scrolls series.

But yeah, one of the things that makes the game so compelling is the truly massive amount of history that comes with the setting. There isn't just one ancient, lost empire, there's scads. The ruins of many different cultures---Dwemer, Chimer, Atmoran, Aleid, 'Vampire'--dot the landscape, and that's just the relative handful we've seen in the parts of Tamriel the games cover. Each of the races has a history spanning multiple rises, falls, migrations and wars. Not everything hangs perfectly together, and there are lingering questions we just don't know the answer to--such as the fate of the Dwemer, where and when Talos was born, the huge contradiction in the whole Songs of the Return cycle ("humans" allegedly migrated from Atmora in successive waves over the course of 2,000 years, but the Redguard are quite human and come from a completely different continent. And are there, or were there once, humans from Akavir?)

If you want to give your game an Elder Scrolls feel, I suggest reading history--real history. Get a feel for how complex, interconnected and confusing the actual rise and fall of nations can be and then pepper your game with allusions and references. "These ruins show characteristics from such-and-such culture, which means they could be over 2,000 years old." "Along the roads you can see a few ancient stone foundations, from the such-and-such wars when this area was a fortified frontier." These kinds of things create the illusion of a world much, much larger than your player-characters and their current doings.

[Threadnaught]

+3-+5 should be limited to certain special materials like Glass, Amber and Ebony (which despite the names are actually kinds of metal :v

Amber and Madness only exist in Sheogorath's Plane(t) of Madness. They'd be rather rare on the Prime Material.
Madness seems to be some kind of metal, I think it's like Ebony, congealed/crystalized God Blood, except y'know. Sheogorath's instead of the Aedra's.

Amber isn't metal, it's just as strong as/stronger than some metals, but it still isn't metal. It is sap from the root system found across the Shivering Isles, finding Amber is risky as it is often found around Elytra lairs.

Ebony of course is what makes Ebony and Daedric weapons and armour, Daedric can be made as long as you have a rare/expensive/dangerous to acquire item, the reason Daedric is better than Ebony is because it infuses the item with the power of Padomay (because Daedra), while Ebony is solely Anu (Aedra).
If you can make the Aedra/creation gods bleed, you should get Ebony, but Aedra are supposed to be all of the following.

Creators of Mundus.
Creators of all the mortal races.
Killable.


That's a lot of...

I've just been playing Skyrim, get off my back. :smallsigh:



The ruins of many different cultures---Dwemer, Chimer, Atmoran, Aleid, 'Vampire'--dot the landscape, and that's just the relative handful we've seen in the parts of Tamriel the games cover.

How dare you. You spelled some obscure name that nobody else here actually cares about wrong, you horrible man. :smalltongue:

Atmoran ruins in Skyrim may as well be called Nordic. Who knows what Atmora actually looks like, all we know is that it's far to the north of Skyrim.
Ayleid ruins are abandoned, but the Ayleids themselves are alive and well. They're shapeshifters, able to transform into birds and possibly other animals. Sad they weren't in Oblivion.
Vampires don't really have much in the way of their own ruins or culture, beyond the ones added by Dawnguard, Chimer strongholds exist only in Morrowind (Resdayn) and on Vvardenfell, or whatever the Dwemer called it.

I'm bummed that during all of Skyrim, it shows nothing of Falmer culture, besides a single statue.


We've seen Tsaesci architecture in the form of the Blades strongholds Cloud Ruler and Sky Haven Temples. We've seen Tsaesci weapons, katanas and other Japanese stuff.
The only time Yokuda was seen, was during Redguard, after which it sank. Yokudan culture is still in effect in Alik'r. Yes, the whole continent sank like Atlantis.
And the entire Maormer race courtesy of the Psijic Order. :smallamused:

[genericwit]

ToB seems a way to up the martial feel, and I'd think Warlock would be good for casting... But let's not forget the Dragonfire Adept or Dragon Shaman classes. You might consider a partial gestalt, where you have the characters take a main class and get half progression of the other as well (ex. full crusader half dragon shaman or full rogue half warlock), banning full casters. Alternatively, they could go full Warlock/whatever and get half Warblade or swordsage or something like that, though that would seem a little less rewarding.

You might consider taking a look at the Magus class from Pathfinder and porting it over--it's a good mix for dual wielding magic and blade.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I didn't know (or more likely I knew at one point and forgot because come on there's too much TES lore to keep track of) ebony was god's blood, p. sweet; but considering that Shivering Isles is my favorite game I should have remembered where Amber comes from :foreheadslap:

I mentioned 'vampire' ruins specifically because that Vigilant of Stendarr's journal noted the ruins under Dimhollow Crypt had a unique aesthetic like nothing he'd seen in ancient nord or dwemer ruins. Maybe the 'gothic' look reflects the aesthetics of Molag Bal's realm Coldharbour, and the vampires of the First Age strove to imitate it? (tbf though, it looks pretty similar to the aesthetic of the Palace of the Kings in Windhelm to me :p )

E: to be sure there's no way to know, but I tend to assume the ancient Atmorans had at least some aesthetic touches in common with their direct descendents, the Nords. Most people, for a real life example, probably couldn't tell you anything precise about ancient roman architecture or clothing but everybody knows columned porticos, togas and crested helmets = Rome. Likewise horned helmets seem to be the same ready signifier for Atmorans that Nords still use in the fourth era.

[Threadnaught]

I didn't know (or more likely I knew at one point and forgot because come on there's too much TES lore to keep track of) ebony was god's blood, p. sweet; but considering that Shivering Isles is my favorite game I should have remembered where Amber comes from :foreheadslap:

Game?
Shivering Isles isn't a game, it's an expansion to Oblivion, which is the vanilla game.

Seriously though, with the Madness on the plane of... Madness, I sometimes wonder if the other Ddaedra have their unique "metal".


I mentioned 'vampire' ruins specifically because that Vigilant of Stendarr's journal noted the ruins under Dimhollow Crypt had a unique aesthetic like nothing he'd seen in ancient nord or dwemer ruins. The 'gothic' look might reflect the aesthetics of Molag Bal's realm Coldharbour, and the vampires of the First Age strove to imitate it? (tbf though, it looks pretty similar to the aesthetic of the Palace of the Kings in Windhelm to me :p )

Yeah, exactly. Vampires have very little cultural and architectural influence outside of the Dawnguard expansion. There was some culture in Morrowind sure, but no buildings of their own.

I like how as Dovahkiin, you can pledge your soul to Hermaeus Mora, Hircine, Molag Bal and Nocturnal all at once. There's going to be one heck of a God War once something manages to kill off that guy. :smallamused:

[Piedmon_Sama]

...Which, back on topic, is something you could keep in mind for an Elder Scrolls style game. It's a setting with very active supernatural beings, who are constantly meddling and tweaking the affairs of mortals in greater or lesser ways (and that just adds to the general confusion in the setting's historical record. When you've got sixteen major immortals who can move backwards and forwards in time acting on the historical stage, record-keeping gets... tricky).

[Theomniadept]

I suppose for a Skyrim-style feel you could make a hundred or more inconsequential extremely linear quests that involve nothing relating to the player's class, race, backstory, or anything. Also all locks have a DC of no more than 20 so anyone can open them.

[veti]

I'm bummed that during all of Skyrim, it shows nothing of Falmer culture, besides a single statue.

You said you'd just started on Dawnguard? Well, I don't want to spoil it for you... but you do get to see a little more of Falmer culture towards the end of that storyline.