Ranger vs Fighter archery

[Gwendol]

Tuggyne asked for it, so here is the thread. Gentlemen and -women, pick you side and present your cause (and build)!

[Know(Nothing)]

The main thing I can think of is that once Entangle comes online, Ranger has a serious advantage. Entangling a bunch of targets lets him take his sweet time plinking away at them. Even if they have ranged options themselves, they're taking, what, -6 on every ranged attack roll? Yeah, as usual, I think spells take it.

[Firechanter]

As a Fighter, I could attack my target better and cause more consistent damage with every arrow. IF I COULD SEE IT!
Cf the Fighter's lack of access to Spot.

[Gwendol]

As a Fighter, I could attack my target better and cause more consistent damage with every arrow. IF I COULD SEE IT!
Cf the Fighter's lack of access to Spot.

Yeah, that's my objection as well. Fighters can rack up the feats, but will still have a hard time taking advantage of fighting at range due to their poor skills (hide and spot).

[MirddinEmris]

If we are talking non-core, than rangers have an upper hand because of spells.

[Togo]

Rangers get bonus damage from favoured enemy, spells that help with archery, and the occasional special archery ability. They also get stealth and spot skills.

Fighters get heavier armour, which is hard to use when you need Dex to hit, and a few more feats, and on average an extra hp per level.

I'm going to go with ranger, unless there is a reason not to. Fighter only gets the advantage when the build needs more feats, such as a dedicated thrown weapon build.

[Gwendol]

If we are talking non-core, than rangers have an upper hand because of spells.

I see no reason why this discussion should be restricted to core.

[TuggyNE]

I see no reason why this discussion should be restricted to core.

Aye. The original request did not assume Core-only. (And, for that matter, my Core optimization skills and access are considerably greater than otherwise so I could probably do that part all on my own.)

For clarity's sake, though, I would appreciate seeing at least skeletal damage/to-hit breakdowns for one or two sample builds on either side.

[Eldariel]

Fighter gets a bit of extra damage in Weapon Mastery line and some trashy feats. With Targeteer they get a substantial bonus in Arrow Storm but that's still replicable with a one-level dip of the class.

Ranger has better skills and of course, stuff like Hunter's Mercy, Hunter's Eye, Find the Gap, etc. So spells should usually win it over for the Ranger, long as he acquires some way to quicken low level stuff.

[Krazzman]

Both can also pick up Zen Archery. Letting the Fighter ignore dex and run around in Mountainplate while the ranger can get more out of wisdom... also helps in the Spotting and Will-Save department.

[Diovid]

Often when discussing Fighter archers, the Fighter's targeteer variant (from Dragon Magazine #310). I don't know if it's enough to put the Fighter in the lead but it is a pretty nice boost.

[Nightraiderx]

A fighter archer would need a few ACF's, hit-and-run and targeteer to get 2x dex to damage when sniping. There are a few feats that make hide a 1-to-1 basis but Ranger has better saves, spells, access to wizard spells, animal companion, free feats, evasion and the like.

[Big Fau]

Ranger has better skills and of course, stuff like Hunter's Mercy, Hunter's Eye, Find the Gap, etc. So spells should usually win it over for the Ranger, long as he acquires some way to quicken low level stuff.

Some of the Ranger's spells are Swift actions to cast, and a normal Rod of Quicken can affect everything he has (or a Legacy item with that as a power).

Actually the Legacy item thing would really help a Ranger, as it can provide the Ring of Wizardry abilities, Metamagic, and possibly stat buffs for a cheaper price (obviously using a Legacy Weapon isn't a good idea, but a generic item could serve the Ranger well).

[ericgrau]

Haven't there already been 50 pages of builds on this already? I thought it boiled down to volley fighter had more damage (spells included), but swift hunter ranger also gets skills and tricky spells.

... and mystic ranger casting is a whole other animal.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Both can also pick up Zen Archery. Letting the Fighter ignore dex and run around in Mountainplate while the ranger can get more out of wisdom... also helps in the Spotting and Will-Save department.

Zen archery isn't that good because you still need Dex to meet up many ranged feats pre-requisites and that gives the Ranger a slight boost since they can skip those with their fighting style.

[Fouredged Sword]

The best one is a Fighter (targeteer, hit and run) fighter then go / Mystic Ranger as soon as you get the feats you need. Mystic ranger gets you entangle right off the bat, and you go Dex / Wis focus.

[ericgrau]

The thing with entangle by mid level is that a passed save only slows foes to half speed, so they pretty much lose a move action to your standard. Which is nice against multiple foes, but not all that spectacular. Casting as a wizard is quite a bit more spectacular, and at that point you wonder how often you even want to shoot your bow anymore.

[katheb]

I prefer non magic archers,

Here is an idea I had before, less accurate than your average archer type but I enjoy the sheer BANG! per shot.



Weapon Master Level 7

Ranged +1 shock composite longbow +9/+9/+4 (1d8+14/×3+1d6 electricity)

Special Attacks reliable strike, weapon training
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10

Feats
Clustered Shots
Deadly Aim
Elven Accuracy
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (longbow)
Weapon Specialization (longbow)

Longbow (1/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon

[CyberThread]

My Fighters name is hank ....so ...

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is weird, my Archer Ranger is named Hank too! What an strange coincidence.

[Darkweave31]

Ranger. It gets cool spells, including ones that greatly improve archery, skills, stealth, and a pet/mount. In general has more to do than DPR which an archer fighter turns into. Fighter might have the advantage with straight damage, but outside that ranger becomes much more useful... Though my favorite is a mounted swift hunter archer (yes I know errata says it doesn't work, my mongolian halfling says that's stupid)

[killem2]

if you are not multiclassing or doing any prestige, I'd go fighter, if you are allowing variants.

[Lans]

Fighters get heavier armour, which is hard to use when you need Dex to hit, and a few more feats, and on average an extra hp per level.


Both can also pick up Zen Archery. Letting the Fighter ignore dex and run around in Mountainplate while the ranger can get more out of wisdom... also helps in the Spotting and Will-Save department.


You people seem to think armor hinders a characters ability to shoot people for some reason

[Nihilarian]

You people seem to think armor hinders a characters ability to shoot people for some reasonIf you're Dex focused you're better off with light armor.

Fighter definitely gets more reliable damage with acf's and the weapon mastery line. The biggest problem with archery is consistant damage, so I'd give the edge to the fighter (though the ranger is better at everything else.)

Personally I'd mix them. Ranger long enough to get Rapid Shot, Fighter long enought to get the targeteer abilities and weapon specialization, then continue Ranger, or PRC out. I hear Chameleon is a good archery PRC.

[Eldariel]

Some of the Ranger's spells are Swift actions to cast, and a normal Rod of Quicken can affect everything he has (or a Legacy item with that as a power).

I'd just go with Circlet of Rapid Casting [MiC], personally. Cheaper, still affects all his spells. Other than that, yeah, agreed.

[thethird]

I'm going to assume that we are talking full classed (without involving prestiges). The most strongest of the too is, imho, ranger. Specially with variants, it is true that targeteer fighter is a good variant for ranged combat but it still holds no ground to mystic ranger. For example:

A ranger using the mystic ranger acf (dragon magazine 336), the shooting star substitution levels (from champions of valor) and with the sword of the arcane order feat. Can access wizard spells (lvl 0-5) and ranger spells, determining bonus spells using dexterity (it's main attribute) and only needing intelligence-wisdom to access the spells. It's caster level is (at least) 1/2 ranger levels +2 (and it gains access to all it's spells by level 10). It also gains most of the archery feats as bonus feats, emptying its feats for other useful feats.

Below level 10 the ranger is the clear winner, and above level 10 I would still give it to the ranger.

[Big Fau]

I'd just go with Circlet of Rapid Casting [MiC], personally. Cheaper, still affects all his spells. Other than that, yeah, agreed.

Why not both? With a high enough Wisdom neither the Rod or Circlet can work more than a handful of times each day.

That said, both builds are running around with White Stag bows (DMG 166) with the maximum possible enhancements they can afford.

[Vogonjeltz]

Tuggyne asked for it, so here is the thread. Gentlemen and -women, pick you side and present your cause (and build)!

I like the side by side comparison

BAB: full for both, advantage: none
Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons (both), advantage: none
Bonus Feats: Ranger 3 (rapid shot, manyshot, improved precise shot; need not meet requirements); Fighter 11 (any, must meet requirements)
Other bonuses: Ranger (5 +2 bonuses vs favored enemy types)

Advantage: Fighter. Within Core there are 8 feats that apply specifically to ranged attacks (not including rapid reload), and 5 more that can be applied to ranged weaponry: (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot (Dex 19), Rapid Shot (Dex 13), Manyshot (Dex 17), Shot on the Run (Dex 13), Mounted Archery, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization

A ranger gets only 3 of these as bonus feats, the fighter gets 11. If we commit 4 feats to the Weapon Focus line (which in providing a +4 damage bonus against all enemies is more versatile and effective than the up to +10 vs a single enemy type), the Fighter still has bonus feat advantage of 4 feats. If the ranger wants to play catch up they have to eat into their general feats.

Now, this doesn't cover spells, but so far the dedicated archer who is a ranger seems woefully behind the dedicated archer Fighter.

*Update with spells in Core:
1st level: Nothing to improve archery, Some minor debuffs (value unclear at 4th+ level)
2nd level: Cats Grace (by 8th level a +4 enhancement isn't terribly impressive)
3rd level: Nothing
4th level: Nothing

So ranger spells in core appear to have no archery value.

Spell Compendium:
1st: Guided Shot (situational, only useful at fairly long ranges), Hawkeye (also situational to long range fights, allows brief emulation of Far Shot), Hunters Mercy (Good, 4ish guaranteed crits, downside is using this gives up attacks for a round, which is barely worth it using a x3 crit bow)
2nd: Exacting Shot (good up until using a magic weapon)
3rd: Arrow Storm (great! But remember, limited times per day, only useful if there are more enemies than 4 enemies present, otherwise a loss of action economy), Mark of the Hunter (only useful vs favored enemies)
4th: Foebane (Great! But only vs favored enemies)

Conclusion: Spells provide some highly situational bonuses. In general these would be good if they came online at earlier levels, but they do not.

[Big Fau]

Now, this doesn't cover spells, but so far the dedicated archer who is a ranger seems woefully behind the dedicated archer Fighter.

That's core-only and ignoring a major class feature of the Ranger. You also ignored skills, which the Ranger wins at (Spot).

[Urpriest]

That said, both builds are running around with White Stag bows (DMG 166) with the maximum possible enhancements they can afford.

...huh. Any other ridiculous gems hidden in that chapter?

[Nihilarian]

Why not both? With a high enough Wisdom neither the Rod or Circlet can work more than a handful of times each day.

That said, both builds are running around with White Stag bows (DMG 166) with the maximum possible enhancements they can afford.Why have I never heard of this?!

[Big Fau]

...huh. Any other ridiculous gems hidden in that chapter?

I'm not sure. Just goes to show that this system is riddled with nuances hidden in every book.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's core-only and ignoring a major class feature of the Ranger. You also ignored skills, which the Ranger wins at (Spot).

I updated for noncore spells actually. And spot increased damage how? Either you are in combat or not.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't have a copy of the DMG handy, so is the White Stag bow an specific bow or something in general? (quick google search leads me to a Runescape item).

[Karnith]

I don't have a copy of the DMG handy, so is the White Stag bow an specific bow or something in general? (quick google search leads me to a Runescape item).
The antlers of a white stag from Karasuthra (the lowest layer of the Wilderness of the Beastlands) can be made into a bow that has a particular affinity for magic, making weapon enchantments put on it 10% cheaper than usual.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh, that sounds really useful. Seems it would be a tad hard to obtain but looking for one would make for a pretty good plot hook for inter-planar adventures.

[Big Fau]

I updated for noncore spells actually. And spot increased damage how? Either you are in combat or not.

Spot allows you to engage in combat at longer ranges than if you didn't have it.


Oh, that sounds really useful. Seems it would be a tad hard to obtain but looking for one would make for a pretty good plot hook for inter-planar adventures.

You can just straight-up buy one at Mount Clangeddin in the plane of Arcadia (or in Sigil).

[TuggyNE]

Other bonuses: Ranger (5 +2 bonuses vs favored enemy types)

You're leaving out the additional four +2 increases that must be applied to existing (sub)types; with those, it's possible to have +10 damage against one (sub)type and +2 against four others, +4 against four and +2 against another, or any other combination.

At least you do mention it later in passing.


Advantage: Fighter. Within Core there are 8 feats that apply specifically to ranged attacks (not including rapid reload), and 5 more that can be applied to ranged weaponry: (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot (Dex 19), Rapid Shot (Dex 13), Manyshot (Dex 17), Shot on the Run (Dex 13), Mounted Archery, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization

Note that Shot on the Run and Mounted Archery are, for most builds, quite useless, along with their prerequisites.


A ranger gets only 3 of these as bonus feats, the fighter gets 11. If we commit 4 feats to the Weapon Focus line (which in providing a +4 damage bonus against all enemies is more versatile and effective than the up to +10 vs a single enemy type), the Fighter still has bonus feat advantage of 4 feats. If the ranger wants to play catch up they have to eat into their general feats.

Now, this doesn't cover spells, but so far the dedicated archer who is a ranger seems woefully behind the dedicated archer Fighter.

Also leaves out ACFs like Arcane Hunter (+10 damage to anything that casts spells or uses SLAs? Do want!). Of course, on the other hand are things like Targeteer.

[Vogonjeltz]

You're leaving out the additional four +2 increases that must be applied to existing (sub)types; with those, it's possible to have +10 damage against one (sub)type and +2 against four others, +4 against four and +2 against another, or any other combination.

At least you do mention it later in passing.

I mention it in the exact passage you quoted. +10= 5 +2 bonuses.



Note that Shot on the Run and Mounted Archery are, for most builds, quite useless, along with their prerequisites.


Shot on the run is perfect for use with Manyshot. It allows an archer to take cover between attacks dealing full damage.

Mounted Archery is just good. What reason would you choose to be dismounted if you could be mounted, assuming it is an option?



Also leaves out ACFs like Arcane Hunter (+10 damage to anything that casts spells or uses SLAs? Do want!). Of course, on the other hand are things like Targeteer.

I didn't address ACFs true, where are those from? And what is each class giving up to use them?

[Urpriest]

Shot on the run is perfect for use with Manyshot. It allows an archer to take cover between attacks dealing full damage.


Somebody doesn't know what a standard action is.



Mounted Archery is just good. What reason would you choose to be dismounted if you could be mounted, assuming it is an option?


If your mount doesn't scale (read: Druid or Paladin) then you don't get the option to choose to be mounted after the first encounter when something easily kills your mount.

[Vogonjeltz]

Somebody doesn't know what a standard action is.

If your mount doesn't scale (read: Druid or Paladin) then you don't get the option to choose to be mounted after the first encounter when something easily kills your mount.

You can't split a move action without the feat.
*not being able to do this means the archer is forced to stand out of cover for a round. Which is bad.

So you do not dispute that being mounted is strictly superior to not being mounted? I just want to be clear that that is undisputed.

Oh have you ever seen a player or NPC who had their mount shot out from under them? Because I have not.

[Urpriest]

You can't split a move action without the feat.
*not being able to do this means the archer is forced to stand out of cover for a round. Which is bad.

So you do not dispute that being mounted is strictly superior to not being mounted? I just want to be clear that that is undisputed.

Oh have you ever seen a player or NPC who had their mount shot out from under them? Because I have not.

Seriously? Why the hell not?

I see it all the time...especially with Phantom Steed, one of the big disadvantages of that spell.

Anyway, you can't split a move action around a Manyshot with that feat, as you are well aware, so I don't know why you brought it up. Remember, Manyshot takes a Standard Action to use, you can't use it with just an Attack Action.

[TuggyNE]

I mention it in the exact passage you quoted. +10= 5 +2 bonuses.

… Then you're leaving out the other +2s? Something is lacking, basically. FE, in total, gives +18 damage spread among five (sub)types in +2 increments, with at least one in each of the five. Not, as your statement implied, +10, nor five +2s.


At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.


Mounted Archery is just good. What reason would you choose to be dismounted if you could be mounted, assuming it is an option?

Well, mostly the fact that you're reliant on a mount that becomes increasingly vulnerable to random collateral damage. Basically, if you've put feats into and are relying on mounted archery for defense, and a single failed save (+5 Reflex and 30 HP vs DC 17+ and 35 average damage at level 10) on a casual fireball still drops your mount into negatives, you're pretty bad off.


I didn't address ACFs true, where are those from? And what is each class giving up to use them?

Arcane Hunter is in Complete Mage, and trades one FE for FE: Arcane. Targeteer is from DrMag 310, and seems to give up a fighter bonus feat for one of a menu of options.


You can't split a move action without the feat.
*not being able to do this means the archer is forced to stand out of cover for a round. Which is bad.

That's great and all, but splitting a move action around a single attack is not very useful after you get Rapid Shot, even if you do have cover conveniently available.


So you do not dispute that being mounted is strictly superior to not being mounted? I just want to be clear that that is undisputed.

Formally, yes, being mounted is superior by at least a small amount to being unmounted in any situation in which it is practical. Unfortunately, dungeons generally make it impractical right off the bat, and the ease of casually negating your trick by accident* makes nonscaling mounts impractical in the mid levels in nearly all situations.

Therefore, the question is not "is being mounted a good thing", but "is being mounted sustainable and worth the (feat) investment".

Furthermore, of course, Mounted Archery the feat is useful for only one purpose: going really fast on your horse and shooting slightly less inaccurately than you otherwise would in such a case. Simply full attacking from a single-moving mount requires no feats at all… and Rangers get Ride same as Fighters, except with four more skill points per level to spend on it and other skills.

*Seriously. Nearly any AoE will have disproportionately bad effects on you because your mount will get caught in it and will usually not save. This means fear, fireball, fire seeds, or fire storm … and that's just the Core Fs.


Oh have you ever seen a player or NPC who had their mount shot out from under them? Because I have not.

I'm happy for you. Similarly, I've never seen a game in which I fought an enemy that wasn't on my FE list, nor ever seen a caster have to make a Concentration check for casting a spell in a threatened area, nor ever had to deal with traps unless there was a trap-optimized rogue along**.

Unusual metagame quirks like "there's an unspoken agreement not to damage mounts if it can at all be helped" are not relevant for the general case.

**I hope it doesn't need to be said that none of these are actually my experience.

[Windstorm]

its an aside to the main point of the thread, but I don't bother with anything but psychic rogue or psychic warrior for archery anymore, mostly psychic warrior going for high single-shot damage through application of deep crystal and greater psionic shot (yay untyped D6's?) along with the biggest weapon with the largest threat range you can get.

the basic fighter is actually more than capable of using many of the same tricks, with the caveat that they need to be a psionic base race to qualify for the psionic meditation feat chain. couple with half-giant for maximum win.

depending on the DMs rulings for monkey grip and strongarm bracers, you can wield weapons 2 or 3 size categories larger than yourself, which if applied to composite greatbows (or heavy repeating crossbows if that's your thing) results in some hilarious alpha damage.

most consistent achieved so far was an ECL 9/CL 8 psywar doing 3d8+4d6+2d6+4 damage round to round.

[Big Fau]

You can't split a move action without the feat.
*not being able to do this means the archer is forced to stand out of cover for a round. Which is bad.

So you do not dispute that being mounted is strictly superior to not being mounted? I just want to be clear that that is undisputed.

Oh have you ever seen a player or NPC who had their mount shot out from under them? Because I have not.



Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

Manyshot isn't an attack action, it's a Standard action.

And I have seen many a minion fried by AoEs. It's really common at the mid-levels, especially against things with Gaze Attacks or spellcasting abilities.

[thethird]

Also if you want a mount animal companion is probably better than what the fighter can get.

[ZeroNumerous]

I think the best bow for non-infinite ranges is a Flaming, Frost, Shock, Magebane, Vicious, Speed, Hank's Energy Bow. If wielded by Hank then it's a +10 weapon that fires 7d6+2(+2d6+2 vs anything with arcane spells) with the option to perform unfortunately one-handed power attacks.

Even if you aren't Hank, it's still a 7-to-9d6+2-to-4 damage weapon.

Of course, infinite range TO requires thrown weapons ala Bloodstorm Blade.

[Nihilarian]

Also if you want a mount animal companion is probably better than what the fighter can get.Not really. Anyone can grab Leadership, Wild Cohort, or just buy a high HD monster to ride. At half ranger level, the animal companion sucks. Better to trade it out for a familiar with the cityscape web enhancement and take improved familiar.

Edit:
I think the best bow for non-infinite ranges is a Flaming, Frost, Shock, Magebane, Vicious, Speed, Hank's Energy Bow. If wielded by Hank then it's a +10 weapon that fires 7d6+2(+2d6+2 vs anything with arcane spells) with the option to perform unfortunately one-handed power attacks.

Even if you aren't Hank, it's still a 7-to-9d6+2-to-4 damage weapon.

Of course, infinite range TO requires thrown weapons ala Bloodstorm Blade.Needs more Splitting.

[ericgrau]

Re: mount
A mount is cheap and better than not having a mount. As long as you don't blow feats or fancy gear into it. If it dies, oh well, you're back to normal. Heck, saved you from taking damage. So it's strictly better than not having a mount right there. Just don't invest any feats into it unless you're sure the cost is worth the added gain, or it could become a trap.

A purchased warhorse is actually far better than a ranger's (not-war)horse and at the price you can easily afford to replace it several times. The ranger's doesn't catch up until level 12 and by that point whatever you get will be one shotted anyway. That half druid progression really hurts any non-utility purposes of any ranger's animal companion. If you don't care about having a worse mount since you don't care much about your mount to begin with, then I suppose you might slowly save a little gold from an animal companion.

[Vogonjeltz]

Seriously? Why the hell not?

I see it all the time...especially with Phantom Steed, one of the big disadvantages of that spell.

Anyway, you can't split a move action around a Manyshot with that feat, as you are well aware, so I don't know why you brought it up. Remember, Manyshot takes a Standard Action to use, you can't use it with just an Attack Action.

Because?

Manyshot is an attack. How is that not an attack action? :smallconfused:


… Then you're leaving out the other +2s? Something is lacking, basically. FE, in total, gives +18 damage spread among five (sub)types in +2 increments, with at least one in each of the five. Not, as your statement implied, +10, nor five +2s.

It's 5 at +2, with +8 spread out in increments of 2. That's at best a +10, just as I stated.


Well, mostly the fact that you're reliant on a mount that becomes increasingly vulnerable to random collateral damage. Basically, if you've put feats into and are relying on mounted archery for defense, and a single failed save (+5 Reflex and 30 HP vs DC 17+ and 35 average damage at level 10) on a casual fireball still drops your mount into negatives, you're pretty bad off.

Mounted Archery negates melee, if you are fighting a spell caster I'd rely more on resistances (to cut damage). That being said, how exactly is someone who is hit by a fireball (Evocation being the best spell school) on a mount worse off than someone who is hit by a fireball on foot?:smallamused:


Arcane Hunter is in Complete Mage, and trades one FE for FE: Arcane. Targeteer is from DrMag 310, and seems to give up a fighter bonus feat for one of a menu of options.

Ah, so it's just another FE type rather than an actual +10 bonus. Not exactly groundbreaking.


That's great and all, but splitting a move action around a single attack is not very useful after you get Rapid Shot, even if you do have cover conveniently available.

Formally, yes, being mounted is superior by at least a small amount to being unmounted in any situation in which it is practical. Unfortunately, dungeons generally make it impractical right off the bat, and the ease of casually negating your trick by accident* makes nonscaling mounts impractical in the mid levels in nearly all situations.

Therefore, the question is not "is being mounted a good thing", but "is being mounted sustainable and worth the (feat) investment".

When the character is a Fighter who has feats to spare? Absolutely. At higher levels there are substantially more durable mounts, including Brass Steeds who get healed by fire damage and shoot frikkin laser beams out of their eyes.


Furthermore, of course, Mounted Archery the feat is useful for only one purpose: going really fast on your horse and shooting slightly less inaccurately than you otherwise would in such a case. Simply full attacking from a single-moving mount requires no feats at all… and Rangers get Ride same as Fighters, except with four more skill points per level to spend on it and other skills.

*Seriously. Nearly any AoE will have disproportionately bad effects on you because your mount will get caught in it and will usually not save. This means fear, fireball, fire seeds, or fire storm … and that's just the Core Fs.

How is this disproportionate? Looks proportional to me, and it certainly doesn't seem crazily out of place, especially considering at higher levels tougher mounts can be ridden, and bardic is fairly cheap.


I'm happy for you. Similarly, I've never seen a game in which I fought an enemy that wasn't on my FE list, nor ever seen a caster have to make a Concentration check for casting a spell in a threatened area, nor ever had to deal with traps unless there was a trap-optimized rogue along**.

Unusual metagame quirks like "there's an unspoken agreement not to damage mounts if it can at all be helped" are not relevant for the general case.

**I hope it doesn't need to be said that none of these are actually my experience.

of course

[Larkas]

I'm going to assume that we are talking full classed (without involving prestiges). The most strongest of the too is, imho, ranger. Specially with variants, it is true that targeteer fighter is a good variant for ranged combat but it still holds no ground to mystic ranger. For example:

A ranger using the mystic ranger acf (dragon magazine 336), the shooting star substitution levels (from champions of valor) and with the sword of the arcane order feat. Can access wizard spells (lvl 0-5) and ranger spells, determining bonus spells using dexterity (it's main attribute) and only needing intelligence-wisdom to access the spells. It's caster level is (at least) 1/2 ranger levels +2 (and it gains access to all it's spells by level 10). It also gains most of the archery feats as bonus feats, emptying its feats for other useful feats.

Below level 10 the ranger is the clear winner, and above level 10 I would still give it to the ranger.

If you ditch the necessity for single-classing and have access to 3rd party material, you can easily qualify for PF's Arcane Archer as a SotAO Mystic Ranger. Not world-shattering, but hey, there's some fun archery stuff in there!

PS: You could also shoehorn the character into Sublime Chord...

[Haldir]

Animal companions are for utility and scouting.

Handle Animal, Track, and Knowledge (Nature), and Wild Empathy are what you use to find mounts and train animals for combat.

People think that a bad animal companion means a Ranger doesn't get to use combat beasts. Granted, one would like to see the full progression, but Rangers have plenty of other class features to achieve that particular niche.

[Larkas]

Eh, to be honest, both could take Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to enable some decent mounted archery.

PS: If you can get your DM to adjudicate Natural Bond as working for Wild Cohort, get a Races of Stone's Dire Eagle. Heck, take it either way!

[Nihilarian]

Because?

Manyshot is an attack. How is that not an attack action? :smallconfused:



It's 5 at +2, with +8 spread out in increments of 2. That's at best a +10, just as I stated.



Mounted Archery negates melee, if you are fighting a spell caster I'd rely more on resistances (to cut damage). That being said, how exactly is someone who is hit by a fireball (Evocation being the best spell school) on a mount worse off than someone who is hit by a fireball on foot?:smallamused:You are wrong about pretty much everything here.

Manyshot let's you make an attack with multiple arrows as a standard action. Shot On The Run let's you move, make an attack action, then move again. Standard Action =/= Attack Action.

Go read Favored Enemy.

Archery while mounted is a good option. Mounted Archery (the feat) can be taken or not, depending on your need. You can make a full attack at no penalty as long as your mount only takes a single move action, no feat required.

[ZeroNumerous]

Edit:Needs more Splitting.

Right, forgot about that one. In that case, drop Speed for Splitting. Damage output shoots up to 14d6+4 or 18d6+8 per shot.

[Vogonjeltz]

You are wrong about pretty much everything here.

Manyshot let's you make an attack with multiple arrows as a standard action. Shot On The Run let's you move, make an attack action, then move again. Standard Action =/= Attack Action.

I didn't say Standard Action = Attack Action. What i said was that Manyshot is an attack, I then asked "How is that not an attack action?"


Go read Favored Enemy.

Done, it said exactly what I wrote. Why did you ask me to retread it for the fourth time tonight? :smallconfused:

[Big Fau]

Because?

Manyshot is an attack. How is that not an attack action? :smallconfused:

Because the rules of the game distinguish between [Standard Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions): Ranged Attack] and [Standard Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions): Manyshot].

[eggynack]

Done, it said exactly what I wrote. Why did you ask me to retread it for the fourth time tonight? :smallconfused:
I think it's cause your wording was surprisingly confusing. Phrasing the ability in terms of the maximum bonus you can apply to one type of creature is somewhat misleading/odd. That would only be the way you should count it up if all enemies were of the same type, which is a pretty advantageous setup for the ranger. Otherwise, you should probably phrase it as Tuggyne has, in terms of the total bonus you're getting, which in this case is +18.

[georgie_leech]

Done, it said exactly what I wrote. Why did you ask me to retread it for the fourth time tonight? :smallconfused:

Level1: Pick something to get +2.
Level 5: Pick a new thing to get +2; increase an existing (choice includes what you just picked) FE by +2.
Level 10, 15, 20: Same as level 5.

[Nihilarian]

Someone already posted this, but fine.
Favored Enemy (Ex)
At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.

If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.So as TuggyNE stated, you get +18 over the course of 20 levels, but you have to have at lest +2 in five different favored enemies.

[Seerow]

I didn't say Standard Action = Attack Action. What i said was that Manyshot is an attack, I then asked "How is that not an attack action?"

It's not an attack action because an attack action is something specifically defined.

Also, if manyshot were an attack action, you could take a full attack of manyshots.




More on topic, I lean towards ranger. Ranger gets 11 feats, Fighter gets 19. Ranger is blowing one on SotAO, so call it 10 vs 19. The fighter can trade out some of those for unique archery abilities via targeteer (I think up to 3 of them? Been a while since I looked at it). But can targeteer + 6 feats above and beyond the Ranger's 10 beat out the benefits of 5th level Ranger+Wizard spells? (And if Ranger isn't getting Mystic Ranger then Fighter isn't getting Targetteer which makes the task to find more valuable feats that much harder)

[georgie_leech]

Also, if manyshot were an attack action, you could take a full attack of manyshots.




Off topic, but that needs to be a capstone for something.

[ZeroNumerous]

Someone already posted this, but fine.So as TuggyNE stated, you get +18 over the course of 20 levels, but you have to have at lest +2 in five different favored enemies.

Which only matters if you're adding them all together. In my opinion, adding it all together is a bit pointless because no one creature can reasonably get all +18 damage, generally you're only getting +10 to +12 at any given time.

Unless you happen to have taken Favored Enemy: Arcanists, Favored Enemy: Constructs, Favored Enemy: Humanoid(Orc), Favored Enemy: Dragon, and Favored Enemy: Undead, and are about to fight a Necropolitan Half-Dragon Half-Orc Half-Golem.

EDIT:
Off topic, but that needs to be a capstone for something.

It could be a capstone for dual-class Ranger. So you can manyshot your manyshot while dual-wielding your dual-wield.

[georgie_leech]

EDIT:

It could be a capstone for dual-class Ranger. So you can manyshot your manyshot while dual-wielding your dual-wield.

And make the Wizards that Did It go "What."

[eggynack]

Which only matters if you're adding them all together. In my opinion, adding it all together is a bit pointless because no one creature can reasonably get all +18 damage, generally you're only getting +10 to +12 at any given time.

Unless you happen to have taken Favored Enemy: Arcanists, Favored Enemy: Constructs, Favored Enemy: Humanoid(Orc), Favored Enemy: Dragon, and Favored Enemy: Undead, and are about to fight a Necropolitan Half-Dragon Half-Orc Half-Golem.
But what's even more inaccurate is saying, "which in providing a +4 damage bonus against all enemies is more versatile and effective than the up to +10 vs a single enemy type." Because favored enemy does not only provide +10 vs. a single enemy type. It provides +10 vs. a single enemy type, and +2's against a bunch of others, or a pile of other possibly combinations. The fact that the variety of targetable enemies was factored in makes the calculation that was used inaccurate.

[rmnimoc]

Off topic, but that needs to be a capstone for something.


It could be a capstone for dual-class Ranger. So you can manyshot your manyshot while dual-wielding your dual-wield.


And make the Wizards that Did It go "What."

As a capstoned Ranger/Ranger?
Behold, the Icosarrow Storm!

So tell me, what can your Fighter/Fighter do versus those 20 arrows, with modifiers for accuracy reaching such levels that space itself will curve to ensure that at least a quarter of those arrows end up buried in your back.

[georgie_leech]

As a capstoned Ranger/Ranger?
Behold, the Icosarrow Storm!

So tell me, what can your Fighter/Fighter do versus those 20 arrows, with modifiers for accuracy reaching such levels that space itself will curve to ensure that at least a quarter of those arrows end up buried in your back.

Clearly slice spacetime on a quantum level and splice together a new outcome wherein you never fired the arrows at all. Except I forgot to carry the two, so you actually fired deadly lightning snakes or something.

[Vogonjeltz]

Because the rules of the game distinguish between [Standard Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions): Ranged Attack] and [Standard Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions): Manyshot].

I don't see Manyshot anywhere on that table you listed. Why link to something that provided no support for the position that there's a difference between an action that makes an attack and an attack action?


I think it's cause your wording was surprisingly confusing. Phrasing the ability in terms of the maximum bonus you can apply to one type of creature is somewhat misleading/odd. That would only be the way you should count it up if all enemies were of the same type, which is a pretty advantageous setup for the ranger. Otherwise, you should probably phrase it as Tuggyne has, in terms of the total bonus you're getting, which in this case is +18.

+18 is misleading, the actual bonus is variable, and never exceeds +10. Even then, the ranger only receives a damage bonus in 5 very narrow cases at best. When you consider that there are at least 32 distinct types, by the logic Tuggyne is employing the Fighter has access to a combined +132 to damage. See how that makes it appear better than it is?

[animewatcha]

Mr. Fighter. You can have your feats galore.

I will go with my mystic ranger that chose to focus on Reach, Chain spell, and methods of reducing the adjusted spell level to do Chain Spell Arrowsplit with my Splitting bow so that each attack ( like say on a full attack ) I do turns into 4-10 arrows. Oh by the way, these arrows can be special like Fountainhead arrows since the properties are cloned onto the extra arrows as well. Let's not forget that I wisely ( read high wisdom score since wisdom is needed for ranger spells ) have these arrows made of aurorum so they are re-useable many times over. Replacing special arrows gets expensive very quickly afterall.

If you use slaying arrows on someone that isn't protected from death effects ( undead and constructs are not exempt ), the mob will roll a 1 eventually.

-sidenote- Unless the SRD is wrong, vicious can only be done on melee weapons.

[MirddinEmris]

I don't see Manyshot anywhere on that table you listed. Why link to something that provided no support for the position that there's a difference between an action that makes an attack and an attack action?



+18 is misleading, the actual bonus is variable, and never exceeds +10. Even then, the ranger only receives a damage bonus in 5 very narrow cases at best. When you consider that there are at least 32 distinct types, by the logic Tuggyne is employing the Fighter has access to a combined +132 to damage. See how that makes it appear better than it is?

It can easily exceed +10 as a creatures aren't restricted to one type (think of Outsider Construct, Undead arcane caster or just half-orc). Fighter bonus damage is just one instance, while ranger bonus damage is several instances, your logic is flawed.

[animewatcha]

IIRC, FE only has the highest bonus applied on a multiple typed creature.

[eggynack]

+18 is misleading, the actual bonus is variable, and never exceeds +10. Even then, the ranger only receives a damage bonus in 5 very narrow cases at best. When you consider that there are at least 32 distinct types, by the logic Tuggyne is employing the Fighter has access to a combined +132 to damage. See how that makes it appear better than it is?
Nah, see it's not +18. It's +18 spread as you choose across a list of distinct types. You're incorporating the type factor twice in your calculation. In fact, a more accurate summation than the one you've given would be to just say that it's a +18 restricted to a single type. The ability doesn't technically add up like that, but it summarizes how effective it is really well.

If you think about it, you would do approximately the same average damage over the course of a campaign with the current favored enemy as you would with +18 to a single enemy type, as long as the quantity of each favored enemy is approximately equal. Either way, +10 to a single enemy type is definitely not what's happening, especially if you're saying that it's that versus +4 against everything. You have to factor in the other bonuses somewhere in that calculation.

[MirddinEmris]

I don't see Manyshot anywhere on that table you listed. Why link to something that provided no support for the position that there's a difference between an action that makes an attack and an attack action?

That was actually addressed in FAQ


Is it possible to use the Shot on the Run feat in
conjunction with the Manyshot feat? Some people I know
insist that you must use the attack action with Shot on the
Run, and they further claim that Manyshot is a standard
action and not the attack action. But there isn’t any such
thing as an attack action, is there? The text on actions in
Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook (page 138) describes
many kinds of actions (standard actions, move actions, full-
round actions, and free actions); it even describes things
that are not actions and mentions restricted activity.
Nowhere, however, do the rules describe attack actions. So,
what’s the correct answer?

No, you cannot use Shot on the Run and Manyshot
together.
It is true that there is no category of actions called “attack
actions” in the D&D game, but there is an action called
attack—it’s the first action described under Standard Actions
on page 139 in the Player’s Handbook.
It might seem that the folks who say no Manyshot with
Shot On the Run are slicing the baloney a little thin, but the
letter of the rules is on their side, and so is the intent behind the
letter of the rules. The Manyshot feat description could say you
fire multiple arrows with the attack action, but it doesn’t.
Manyshot is a standard action, not a variant on the attack action
(see the feat description on page 97 in the Player’s Handbook).
Likewise, the Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make
any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When
using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a
ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the
Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic
items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat
when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell
would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of
the Player’s Handbook), using any magic item except for some
use-activated items would require the activate magic item
action (Player’s Handbook, page 142), and, as already noted
here, using the Manyshot feat is a standard action. Most magic
weapons are use activated and don’t require any action to
activate at all (see page 213 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide),
so you can use these weapons along with the attack action. For
example, you could use a +1 longbow or +1 arrow (or both)
with the attack action, and thus you also could use these items
with Shot on the Run.



IIRC, FE only has the highest bonus applied on a multiple typed creature.

I don't think that is true. Under the rules they should stack and i don't recall specific clause for it not to.

[ZeroNumerous]

-sidenote- Unless the SRD is wrong, vicious can only be done on melee weapons.

My bad. Then you could just pick Corrosive instead.

Seeking, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Splitting, Energy Bow ignores all miss changes, attacks twice per actual attack, and deals 6d6+2 per attack. Had to drop Magebane due to it being +2 rather than +1 as I originally thought. Regardless, it's a +10 Bow and usable by both Fighter and Ranger.

[rmnimoc]

Clearly slice spacetime on a quantum level and splice together a new outcome wherein you never fired the arrows at all. Except I forgot to carry the two, so you actually fired deadly lightning snakes or something.

Alas, foiled by the fighter's lack of skill points and class skills. Besides, that trick relies on total cheese where something the plank length only gets +8 to AC from being tiny, where it should have (uses high int and Knowledge(All)[Factotum FTW])....1.3292279957849158729038070602803e+36 as a Tiny-117steps.

The moral of the story here, is Factotum can take both the fighter and ranger at once.

[MirddinEmris]

My bad. Then you could just pick Corrosive instead.

Seeking, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Splitting, Energy Bow ignores all miss changes, attacks twice per actual attack, and deals 6d6+2 per attack. Had to drop Magebane due to it being +2 rather than +1 as I originally thought. Regardless, it's a +10 Bow and usable by both Fighter and Ranger.

Yeah, until you meet outsider or something else with a 2-4 resistances to common damage types (there are lot of such creatures in MMs).

[Seerow]

Yeah, until you meet outsider or something else with a 2-4 resistances to common damage types (there are lot of such creatures in MMs).

Agreed, I'm not much of a fan of elemental damage weapons past low levels (and even at low levels... a +1 flaming weapon is 8000gp. It's just not reasonable to drop that kind of money on a weapon until around level 8-10, by which point resist 5 is ubiquitous).

For high level, I'd go with the +1 Splitting(+3), Seeking(+1), Blood Seeking(+1), Collision(+2) Energy Bow. It doesn't have the same raw damage as all those D6's, but it's very reliable, has all of the important parts, and you can use it to shoot just about anywhere.

If you are considering using special arrows with your energy bow, the last +2 available can go to Metalline (so you can treat your indestructible aurorum arrows as whatever special material you need to bypass DR).

[animewatcha]

Found it on the SRD.


Favored Enemy (Ex)

If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

[MirddinEmris]

Found it on the SRD.

Can't believe i missed that part. Well, i suppose it's only fair that you need this kind if restrictions to not allow this overpowered rangers to break the game with insane damage :smallconfused: At least it's not a precision damage anymore.

[Seerow]

For what it's worth, if you have a good diverse array of favored enemy types that show up often in your game, there's the Hunting enhancement, which gives +4 damage against favored enemies for a +1 bonus.

Also if you have a couple feats (or can get a custom item) to spare, grabbing a stance that works with ranged combat (there are some of them out there. Giant Killing style is potentially nice and gives you incentive to become smaller and gain more dex, as if you needed that) and adding the Discipline Enhancement nets you a +3 to hit, which is useful when using the Energy bow and various multishotting shenanigans which could otherwise hurt your accuracy.

[MirddinEmris]

For what it's worth, if you have a good diverse array of favored enemy types that show up often in your game, there's the Hunting enhancement, which gives +4 damage against favored enemies for a +1 bonus.

Also if you have a couple feats (or can get a custom item) to spare, grabbing a stance that works with ranged combat (there are some of them out there. Giant Killing style is potentially nice and gives you incentive to become smaller and gain more dex, as if you needed that) and adding the Discipline Enhancement nets you a +3 to hit, which is useful when using the Energy bow and various multishotting shenanigans which could otherwise hurt your accuracy.

And Nemesis is one of the few ways to detect those sneaky Evil Wizards without being one (wizard, not evil). Granted it's only 60ft, but it's still much better than nothing and certainly better than what Fighter has for this (which is actually also nothing).

As we can see if you have real class features, you are bound to finding some really nice things to augment them or to replace them, give sufficient number of splatbooks.

[ZeroNumerous]

I'd go with the +1 Splitting(+3), Seeking(+1), Blood Seeking(+1), Collision(+2) Energy Bow.

An Energy Bow is already a +2 Longbow, so the +1 is unnecessary. Blood Seeking is mostly wasted, in my opinion since cover is only an additional +4 to AC and it doesn't allow you to make attacks vs creatures behind full cover.

You could go Splitting, Seeking, Collision, Corrosive, Screaming if you were terribly concerned about efficiency. That's a total of 4d6+7 per attack with two elements whose resistances are practically unheard of.


Yeah, until you meet outsider or something else with a 2-4 resistances to common damage types (there are lot of such creatures in MMs).

Then the Ranger has the advantage, since all the non-Good outsiders universally have arcane SLAs.

Regardless, if you're concerned about energy resistance then the aforementioned bow works just as well. It's a paltry difference of 2 damage on average.

[MirddinEmris]

Regardless, if you're concerned about energy resistance then the aforementioned bow works just as well. It's a paltry difference of 2 damage on average.

Than this +3.5 damage on average that often doesn't work just not worth +1 bonus. You are better of with weapon crystals for this price

[TuggyNE]

Mounted Archery negates melee, if you are fighting a spell caster I'd rely more on resistances (to cut damage). That being said, how exactly is someone who is hit by a fireball (Evocation being the best spell school) on a mount worse off than someone who is hit by a fireball on foot?:smallamused:

And how is your Fighter getting energy resistance on their mount?

Anyway, someone hit by a fireball is of course unhappy either way, but if they have also lost the mount they were presumably relying on for some sort of mechanical advantage, and which they had invested some sort of resources into, then that just makes it worse. The fact that this comes as an incidental bonus for the enemy, for free, is just insult to injury.


Ah, so it's just another FE type rather than an actual +10 bonus. Not exactly groundbreaking.

It's an FE type that is, quite literally, all the interesting Outsiders, a lot of Magical Beasts, a lot of Monstrous Humanoids, a lot of Aberrations, many Constructs, most Fey, many Undead, and the most dangerous Humanoids (namely, actual spellcasters). That's pretty noteworthy.


How is this disproportionate? Looks proportional to me, and it certainly doesn't seem crazily out of place, especially considering at higher levels tougher mounts can be ridden, and bardic is fairly cheap.

Previously explained, I think; it's disproportionate because not only do you take damage as usual, so does your mount: two-for-one deal. By relying on the mount you have opened yourself up to more vulnerabilities, and (assuming that the Fighter's extra feats are still being championed here) have spent two feats on that and have not got much benefit, namely the ability to negate attack rolls against your mount 1/round if your skill check is high enough, and the ability to move faster with slightly less inaccuracy.

[Krazzman]

Wow... apparently we did Favoured Enemy wrong... (being a bonus that increases each time a new one comes to it means in the end you had a +10 +8 +6 +4 +2 bonus to our favoured enemy...) anyway, now it's an awesome houserule.

About Zen Archery:
The Ranger can have 13 dex and after that simply forget to care about dexterity with this feat. Especially if he goes with some ACF where more Wis is indeed beneficial.
The question is simply IF it is worth it to blow a feat on this. Also afaik you can get Wis to Damage easier than Dex to Damage.

@Dragon Magazine stuff... how many groups actually play with it? I know for certain that the groups I was in or I heard of around my Town are all playing without those magazines.

Also about enchantments:
if we include 3rd Party Material then why not add the Agile Enchantment?
Untyped Dex bonus on damage.

[ZeroNumerous]

Than this +3.5 damage on average that often doesn't work just not worth +1 bonus. You are better of with weapon crystals for this price

I have no idea what you're referring to with this comment.

As I said: The difference between stacking all the elemental d6s and going with Splitting/Collision/Seeking/Corrosive/Screaming is a completely meaningless 2 points of damage. 21 average vs 23 average.

If you're super concerned about acid and sonic damage being resisted, then you could get Blood Seeking so that you don't have to deal with the rare soft cover penalty. Or Magebane so you deal bonus damage to guys with arcane SLAs and arcane casting.

Honestly, most of the damage will come from Splitting and respective Strength modifiers anyway. You're basically getting double the number of attacks you would normally get, so it's a fairly big deal.

[Vogonjeltz]

It can easily exceed +10 as a creatures aren't restricted to one type (think of Outsider Construct, Undead arcane caster or just half-orc). Fighter bonus damage is just one instance, while ranger bonus damage is several instances, your logic is flawed.

This doesn't work *as noted by Animewatcha, but even if it did this would only occur when the DM deliberately threw the player a bone.


That was actually addressed in FAQ

I don't think that is true. Under the rules they should stack and i don't recall specific clause for it not to.

Very well, as the FAQ has an official ruling on the matter, I concede by RAW it works that way. I would say it ought not.


Found it on the SRD.


And how is your Fighter getting energy resistance on their mount?

Anyway, someone hit by a fireball is of course unhappy either way, but if they have also lost the mount they were presumably relying on for some sort of mechanical advantage, and which they had invested some sort of resources into, then that just makes it worse. The fact that this comes as an incidental bonus for the enemy, for free, is just insult to injury.



It's an FE type that is, quite literally, all the interesting Outsiders, a lot of Magical Beasts, a lot of Monstrous Humanoids, a lot of Aberrations, many Constructs, most Fey, many Undead, and the most dangerous Humanoids (namely, actual spellcasters). That's pretty noteworthy.



Previously explained, I think; it's disproportionate because not only do you take damage as usual, so does your mount: two-for-one deal. By relying on the mount you have opened yourself up to more vulnerabilities, and (assuming that the Fighter's extra feats are still being championed here) have spent two feats on that and have not got much benefit, namely the ability to negate attack rolls against your mount 1/round if your skill check is high enough, and the ability to move faster with slightly less inaccuracy.

Barding + armor gem is good

[MirddinEmris]

This doesn't work *as noted by Animewatcha, but even if it did this would only occur when the DM deliberately threw the player a bone.

Well, they don't stack, but i'll still argue that it's not the same as throwing a bone - many classical enemies are of several types, especially if we count FW(Arcane) (liches, demons, devils, dragons, etc.). And it still can exceed +10 with magic items and feats easily.


About FAQ - it's a clarification of rulings, and it totally counts unless it's contradicts original rulings (to overrule the official rulings or add something to them, you'll need an errata or splatbook, but for clarification FAQ is fine). The designers clearly tell that Standard Action and attack action aren't same thing. Besides, if your argument that standard action as an attack and therefore is attack action, then full-attack action is also the attack, so it's possible to make full-attack action with conjunction of Shot On The Run.

P.S. And if you'll try to argue that standard action is one attack, then i'll argue that mnayshot is actually not a one attack, but also several of them. And there are maneuvers and powers than can make one ranged attack as full-round action, so is it possible to use them with SotR feat?

[georgie_leech]

Speaking of FE: Arcanist, are there any creatures that don't have SLA's or similar, *and* have a decent ranged attack? Otherwise, the fact that it doesn't get the FE bonus is kind of dwarfed by being incapable of actually hitting a flying Ranger.

It occurs to me, oddly enough, that the only thing that leaps to mind is a dedicated Fighter Archer.

[TuggyNE]

Speaking of FE: Arcanist, are there any creatures that don't have SLA's or similar, *and* have a decent ranged attack? Otherwise, the fact that it doesn't get the FE bonus is kind of dwarfed by being incapable of actually hitting a flying Ranger.

Some few. Manticores, for example, or low-level dragons; well, anything that flies and has no SLA I suppose.

PF's Tarrasque. Most giants have rocks that are not wholly useless.

And then there's the Harpy Archer, but that's the dedicated Fighter you mentioned. :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

It's an FE type that is, quite literally, all the interesting Outsiders, a lot of Magical Beasts, a lot of Monstrous Humanoids, a lot of Aberrations, many Constructs, most Fey, many Undead, and the most dangerous Humanoids (namely, actual spellcasters). That's pretty noteworthy.
I will admit that I haven't checked thoroughly (since I don't own half of the monster books), but are there really that many creatures with spellcasting or invocations? I mean, it's still one of the best FE choices, but I can't think of that many creatures that have actual arcane spellcasting (at least, not without class levels). In core it's, what, Araneas, Couatls, some Driders, Nagas, and Rakshasas?

[Azoth]

Okay, not the most optimized Ranger20 build around, but I would like to see a better Archer Fighter build that can function in a real campaign beat this.

Azurin Ranger20 32PB 2flaws/traits

ACFS:
Trapmaster
Shooting Star substitution Levels
Arcane Hunter-FE Arcanist

Stats:
Str:14 base +1 level +5 tome +6enhancement=26
Dex: 16 base +4 level +4 tome +6 enhancement=30
Con: 12 base +6 enhancement=18
Int: 14 base +6 enhancement=20
Wis: 14 base +6 enhancement=20
Cha: 8 base +6 enhancement=14

Initiative:+12

Saves (without buffs or enhancement bonuses)
Fort:16
Ref:22
Will:11

AC without armor or buffs (too lazy to do right now):
AC:18
Touch: 18
FF:8

Feats:
Flaw:Azure Enmity
Flaw: Educated
1st: PBS
Azurin: PS
RNG2: Rapid Shot
3: Knowledge Devotion
RNG6: Manyshot
6: Sword of the Arcane Order
9: Darkstalker
RNG11: Improved Precise Shot
12: Woodland Archer
15: Bonus Essentia
18: Practiced Spellcaster

Flaws:
Vulnerable
Non-combatant

Traits:
Absent Minded
Aggressive

Weapon:
+1 Mighty +8 Magebane Seeking Splitting Collision Force Longbow.
Damage(without Favored Enemy, mage bane, or Knowledge Devotion) 1d8+14 force

Attack Bonus (without Knowledge Devotion or magebane): +30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
*Remember for each missed attack roll all subsequent attacks gain a stacking +4 to Hit*

Notable Skills:
Knowledge Local 23ranks+5int+mwtool+1trait=31
Knowledge Arcana 23ranks+5int+mwtool+1 trait=31
Knowledge Nature 23ranks+5int+mwtool+1 trait=31
Knowledge The Planes 23ranks+5int+mwtool+1trait=31
Hide 23ranks+10dex+mwtool=35
Move Silently 23ranks+10dex+mwtool=35
Spot 23ranks+5wis+mwtool-1trait=29
Search 14 ranks+5int+mwtool=21
Balance 5ranks+10dex+mwtool=17
Knowledge Religion 1rank+5int+mwtool+1trait=9
Knowledge Dungeoneering 1rank+5int+mwtool+1trait=9

Skill Tricks:
Collector of Stories

Spells preped (too lazy to do right now):
1st 5slots:
2nd 4slots:
3rd 4 slots:
4th 4 slots:
5th 1 slot:

Spells Known (too lazy to do right now):

Notable bought Items:
+10 equivelant bow capable of hitting incorporeal enemies and bypassing DR
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5
+4 Dex tome
Belt of Magnificence +6
11 mwtools
138,450gp wbl remaining...too lazy to fully gear the char.

Gist: He is the party scout and walking Encyclopedia Britanica. Good Hide/Move Silently make him decently hard to detect. His Search is surviveable especially with some wizard buffing when needed. High spot means enemies are pincushioned before they get into range to mess with the party. If an enemy needs identifying he can do it easily, and against over 90% of enemies he is going to easily and reliably hit the DC36 check to gain +5 to hit/damage against them.

Azure Emnity turns his FE bonus damage up to +14/+12/+10/+8/+6...so if fighting one of 5 creature types he particularly hates they are in for a world of hurt.

Practiced Spellcaster brings his CL up to 16, so with a Prayer Bead he has easy CL20 for +5 GMW and any other buffs that might benefit from high caster level.

So, can we get a Fighter 20 that tops this?

[MirddinEmris]

...
stuff
...

You really missing out Nemesis for this build

[Azoth]

While Nemesis is nice it has two shortcomings for me. The first is that it only works against one type of favored enemy. The second is that it is variable damage and I try to shy away from variable damage.

[Urpriest]

Also, on the Mounted Archery debate: Mounted Archery is only useful if you need to double-move on a mount while using archery. Double-moving on a mount while using archery is only useful if you have a lot of open space to kite. If you have a lot of open space to kite, then encounter distances become important, which means you need enough Spot to see your enemies, since Spot takes a -1 penalty per 10ft of distance. Which means the Ranger wins again.

[Big Fau]

I don't see Manyshot anywhere on that table you listed. Why link to something that provided no support for the position that there's a difference between an action that makes an attack and an attack action?

Manyshot itself isn't listed, but "Ranged Attack" and "Use Extraordinary Ability" are. Feats fall under Ex unless specified otherwise (as noted in the BoED, XPH, CM, MoI, and pretty much any other source with SLA/SUA feats). As Manyshot specifies it is a Standard action to use (rather than an Attack [Ranged] action), it is a separate type of Standard action and is mutually exclusive.

The FAQ ruling has been pointed out, but the fact is it wasn't needed.

Is anyone else getting a Pickford vibe from this conversation?

[KorbeltheReader]

Considering that on these boards power is really conceived of as based on versatility, the ranger wins because of its options. The volley archer fighter probably wins on damage, but the ranger has the following going for it that dramatically increase its versatility:

spells -- These give the ranger better battlefield control, better mobility, better out-of-combat utility, and some great buffing. This advantage is further enhanced by access to Sword of the Arcane Order.

skills -- ranger gets far more points and far more skill options. With these the ranger can be the party trapfinder (with an ACF), tracker, scout, can pump knowledges for Knowledge: Devotion, can stack Concentration for a quick martial adept dip for the Diamond Mind saving throw boosters (goodbye to failing saves on a 1!), can go mounted with animal handling and ride, and gets spot to help with long range archery. Most importantly, the ranger can do several of these at once because it gets so many more points than the fighter.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So in pathfinder there is an archetype that allows the Archer Fighter to bullrush with arrows (level 10?)

How does he Fighter fair if he could add DungeonCrasher (3.5) to that Archetype?

Add in Zen Archery... You would have a Str/Wis/Con Fighter who can dish out the damage insanely well at range.

I'm now making this for my next 3.P game...

[Calimehter]

If you have a lot of open space to kite, then encounter distances become important, which means you need enough Spot to see your enemies, since Spot takes a -1 penalty per 10ft of distance. Which means the Ranger wins again.

I can't help but think that Spot is a tad overrated in this debate. There are some common mitigating factors:

- There are many large opponents out there that have a tough time finding cover and are easier to see by RAW

- Not everyone is going to be using Hide skills to snipe you (though you should be ready for it), and enemies in the open not trying to hide often don't need a skill check to be seen.

- A mounted archer fighter who lives/adventures in a lot of open ground has probably purchased Spot cross-class at the very least, or gone Able Learner if allowed. That still won't beat opposed hide checks by dedicated stealth types of an even CR, but it still helps with encounter distances and/or checks vs. lower level scouts and the like.

I'm not saying that Spot isn't a thing, but I don't think missing it as a class skill wholly negates the advantages of mounted archery.

[Seerow]

So in pathfinder there is an archetype that allows the Archer Fighter to bullrush with arrows (level 10?)

How does he Fighter fair if he could add DungeonCrasher (3.5) to that Archetype?

Add in Zen Archery... You would have a Str/Wis/Con Fighter who can dish out the damage insanely well at range.

I'm now making this for my next 3.P game...

I'm curious does that archtype let you deal damage while bullrushing? Because I can't imagine a way to shoot someone with an arrow hard enough to knock them back without hurting them at all.

Also, what's the point of Zen archery in that build? I mean, you could still combine all of that with Targeteer I think (as long as you're mixing PF archtypes with 3.5 ACFs), so you have every reason to want high dex.

Actually something like Targeteer Dungeoncrasher PFArcher Fighter10/Mystic Ranger 10 would be pretty great. You end up with 1 bonus feat from the Fighter, all the rest being traded out for Dungeoncrasher/Targeteer specials, 2 bonus feats from Mystic Ranger (Style Mastery gets pushed to level 12 so you don't get it here), but do still get access all the way up to 5th level spells, and after spending a feat on SotAO, you still have 11 feats left over to dedicate to archery/improved bullrushing.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm curious does that archtype let you deal damage while bullrushing? Because I can't imagine a way to shoot someone with an arrow hard enough to knock them back without hurting them at all.

Also, what's the point of Zen archery in that build? I mean, you could still combine all of that with Targeteer I think (as long as you're mixing PF archtypes with 3.5 ACFs), so you have every reason to want high dex.

Actually something like Targeteer Dungeoncrasher PFArcher Fighter10/Mystic Ranger 10 would be pretty great. You end up with 1 bonus feat from the Fighter, all the rest being traded out for Dungeoncrasher/Targeteer specials, 2 bonus feats from Mystic Ranger (Style Mastery gets pushed to level 12 so you don't get it here), but do still get access all the way up to 5th level spells, and after spending a feat on SotAO, you still have 11 feats left over to dedicate to archery/improved bullrushing.

I posted this after reading the first page (due to being really interested in playing this character) sooo

What is the Targeteer?

[Seerow]

I posted this after reading the first page (due to being really interested in playing this character) sooo

What is the Targeteer?

Targeteer is a Fighter variant in Dragon #310. it gets a restricted list of bonus feats to choose from in exchange for getting 3 new abilities it can take in place of bonus feats. One is a super rapid shot (-5 to hit for +2 attacks), one is 'Sniper' (sacrifice attacks to increase your weapon's threat range at a 1:1 basis.), and one lets you replace Strength to damage with Dex to damage, as long as you don't have a strength penalty.

[georgie_leech]

So in pathfinder there is an archetype that allows the Archer Fighter to bullrush with arrows (level 10?)

How does he Fighter fair if he could add DungeonCrasher (3.5) to that Archetype?

Add in Zen Archery... You would have a Str/Wis/Con Fighter who can dish out the damage insanely well at range.

I'm now making this for my next 3.P game...

Do note that most Ranged feats still need DEX, so be careful that you don't neglect it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Do note that most Ranged feats still need DEX, so be careful that you don't neglect it.

I posted a thread concearning this build... I really want to play it!

But if I stick with at least 10 Dex I can get a +6 dex item from a party item crafter.

I would need... Weapon Focus, Precise Shot, and... Well I don't think anything else is really needed, everything else would be gravy.

[Haldir]

I posted a thread concearning this build... I really want to play it!

But if I stick with at least 10 Dex I can get a +6 dex item from a party item crafter.

I would need... Weapon Focus, Precise Shot, and... Well I don't think anything else is really needed, everything else would be gravy.

If you can, get your hands on the spell Fist of Stone for sweet composite bonus on a bow as well. Fighter buys an item of strength enhancement to get the same effect Ranger can do with Spells, which means yet another sum of gold freed up for a nice magic item that will give you versatility. Do you have Fly yet? Swift Fly is nice and cheap if you're doing crafting with Ranger.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If you can, get your hands on the spell Fist of Stone for sweet composite bonus on a bow as well. Fighter buys an item of strength enhancement to get the same effect Ranger can do with Spells, which means yet another sum of gold freed up for a nice magic item that will give you versatility. Do you have Fly yet? Swift Fly is nice and cheap if you're doing crafting with Ranger.

As to not derail this thread with a less than legit build... (3.P Build)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336891

[Larkas]

This thread made me realize that it's possible to make a crit-fisher archer build of sorts.

With Targetteer Fighter 2 (or 4, if you want Vital Aim, i.e.: Dex to damage), you can get both Arrow Swarm and Sniper.

Arrow Swarm is dependent on, and compatible with, Rapid Shot. If making a full attack, this means three extra attacks (7@20). Sniper can then sacrifice six attacks in a full attack routine to add that same number to the threat range of the weapon. With nothing else, this equates to a 14-20/x3 Longbow.

Enter Deepwood Sniper. Among other goodies, at level 1, you get Keen Arrow, which makes all projectiles behave as if they were keen weapons. This means, right off the bat, a 8-20 threat range when using Sniper. At levels 2 and 7, you get Projectile Improved Critical +1 and +2, respectively. This means, @7, a 8-20/x5 Longbow. Make the Longbow of Kaorti Resin and you reach 8-20/x6, before any weapon enhancements.

Dip Warblade (or get Martial Maneuver+Martial Stance) for Blood in the Water and you're set for some fun and profit!

It's true that you'll be making a single attack at -7. It's also true that you can sacrifice less attacks for a decreased critical chance: 2@-7&10-20/x6, 3@-7&12-20/x6, 4@-7&14-20/x6.

You can, of course, still make an Arrow Swarm attack whenever you want. Combine everything with Wild Cohort for a decent mount and you can full attack much more reliably.

... Is this any good? :smallredface:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Add in lighting maces + aptitude bow for maximum hilarity.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This thread made me realize that it's possible to make a crit-fisher archer build of sorts.

With Targetteer Fighter 2 (or 4, if you want Vital Aim, i.e.: Dex to damage), you can get both Arrow Swarm and Sniper.

Arrow Swarm is dependent on, and compatible with, Rapid Shot. If making a full attack, this means three extra attacks (7@20). Sniper can then sacrifice six attacks in a full attack routine to add that same number to the threat range of the weapon. With nothing else, this equates to a 14-20/x3 Longbow.

Enter Deepwood Sniper. Among other goodies, at level 1, you get Keen Arrow, which makes all projectiles behave as if they were keen weapons. This means, right off the bat, a 8-20 threat range when using Sniper. At levels 2 and 7, you get Projectile Improved Critical +1 and +2, respectively. This means, @7, a 8-20/x5 Longbow. Make the Longbow of Kaorti Resin and you reach 8-20/x6, before any weapon enhancements.

Dip Warblade (or get Martial Maneuver+Martial Stance) for Blood in the Water and you're set for some fun and profit!

It's true that you'll be making a single attack at -7. It's also true that you can sacrifice less attacks for a decreased critical chance: 2@-7&10-20/x6, 3@-7&12-20/x6, 4@-7&14-20/x6.

You can, of course, still make an Arrow Swarm attack whenever you want. Combine everything with Wild Cohort for a decent mount and you can full attack much more reliably.

... Is this any good? :smallredface:


Add in lighting maces + aptitude bow for maximum hilarity.

Mother of God *pulls down glasses*

[Snails]

I would lean towards Fighter because they have the feats to get the interesting options like Ranged Disarm and Range Pin at middling levels.

When you are getting many bites at the apple (e.g. 5 when Hasted), even a somewhat disfavorable matchup is pretty likely to succeed. And if you get lucky with one of your first or second attempts, your target is hosed for a round, and you get to pour salt into the wound (the rest of your arrows).

[Larkas]

Add in lighting maces + aptitude bow for maximum hilarity.

Won't work, unfortunately. Lightning Mace's wording is very specific:


Whenever you roll a threat on an attack roll while using a light mace in each hand, you gain an additional attack at the same attack bonus.

... Wait. That's compatible with Hand Crossbows! :smalleek:

If you can net Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Reload, you net 10 attacks on a full-attack. Sacrifice 8 to attack once with each of your two Aptitude Kaorti Resin Hand Crossbows (normally 19-20/x4), and you net... 2-20/x6!!! :eek:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Won't work, unfortunately. Lightning Mace's wording is very specific:



... Wait. That's compatible with Hand Crossbows! :smalleek:

If you can net Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Reload, you net 10 attacks on a full-attack. Sacrifice 8 to attack once with each of your two Aptitude Kaorti Resin Hand Crossbows (normally 19-20/x4), and you net... 2-20/x6!!! :eek:

I retract my previous statement and add it to this one..

Mother of God... *Pulls down glasses*

[Larkas]

Man, and Targetteer 1 even provides you with two free (Ranged) Exotic Weapon Proficiencies! :smalleek:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Man, and Targetteer 1 even provides you with two free (Ranged) Exotic Weapon Proficiencies! :smalleek:

Sooo essentially Ranger wins? He must have this build... Plus a few other homebrew feats

http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/

Though I think he may have class levels in Fighter and is just an idiot

[Larkas]

Sooo essentially Ranger wins? He must have this build... Plus a few other homebrew feats

http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/

Though I think he may have class levels in Fighter and is just an idiot

LOL! :smallbiggrin:

Sidenote, I forgot about DotU's Hand Crossbow Focus. That's Rapid Reload + Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow) in a single feat! ... I might have to write this build down.

[Snowbluff]

I thought about it for a minute, and this is what I came up with.

Rangers have:
Spells, like Hunter's Mercy, Sniper Shot, and Hunter's Eye.
This lets them use wands of these spells without UMD.
Ranger spells often do not require good CL to work well, which is good.
Better Skills.
Rolled in ranged feats, which helps keep up with fighter bonus feat.
An animal companion (blegh), an Urban Companion (Much better, assists with skills and poisons), or distracting attack (I'm always flanking!)

I think my next player might be a ranger. I rarely play them. :smalltongue:

[Siosilvar]

Won't work, unfortunately. Lightning Mace's wording is very specific:

... Wait. That's compatible with Hand Crossbows! :smalleek:

Yes, it is: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125698)


Wait up a sec, man, a lot of needless rolls are being made.

EDIT: You have Failed a will save versus an Augmented Death Urge. For the next three rounds, you have the wonderful pleasure of having the following action.

On your turns, you must take a full round action to attack yourself with whatever weapon you have in hand right now. This will result in one attack, which automatically crits.


Ok, I automatically unload 588 bullets into my chest this next turn.

(2352d6+14112)[22378]

And I reflect it to myself, giving myself a total of 44756 damage :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Yes, it is: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125698)

HAHAHAHAHAH! Oh, I remember this. This was nothing short of awesome. :smallsmile:

[Haldir]

Be sure to get Haste. Swift Haste is level 2 on the Ranger list.

Arrow Storm and Arrow Mind might interest you as well. AoO's let you make attacks on other peoples turns. S'nice. So nice.

[Larkas]

Yes, it is: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125698)

HAHAHAHAHAHA, that's great! Is that build posted somewhere? It'll save me some trouble! I'll be sure to add in some form of immunity to mind-affecting to it, though :smallbiggrin:

PS: Make the most of the aforementioned Warblade dip and get Lightning Recovery! :smalleek:

[Siosilvar]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, that's great! Is that build posted somewhere? It'll save me some trouble! I'll be sure to add in some form of immunity to mind-affecting to it, though :smallbiggrin:

PS: Make the most of the aforementioned Warblade dip and get Lightning Recovery! :smalleek:

I don't believe it's been posted anywhere, and it's been four and a half years since the original, but

Now, the... relevant components of Olo's build boil down to Disciple of Dispater and lightning maces combined with an aptitude weapon and a splitting weapon, as well as some iron bolts.

[thethird]

build

Since everyone seems to be going with targeteer fighter (which is good) there is no excuse for not picking mystic ranger (for moar spells) you only delay your ranged feats (which is not a problem since you are going ranger 20), loose your martial melee proficiencies (again not a problem), and give a small hit to your favored enemy (minor).

[toapat]

Arcane Hunter is in Complete Mage, and trades one FE for FE: Arcane. Targeteer is from DrMag 310, and seems to give up a fighter bonus feat for one of a menu of options.

Targeteer is only as good if you allow it to be treated as subsitution levels, not an ACF because it replaces the list of fighter bonus feats (which are good enough) with Targeteer bonus feats

it also has access to 3 special abilities:

Arrow Swarm: -5 Attack, +2 attacks. Requires Rapid Fire, Full attack action

Sniper: -X attacks, +X critical Threat range on next attack. Full attack Action

Vital Aim: Precision Damage, Apply Dex to damage with ranged attacks, can not use possitive dex to replace negative strength.

Ideally you PRC out ASAP from Targeteer, because you can have everything you need from it by 4th/6th level

That, or you Multiclass Fighter and Targetteer so you can fight while you fight. I dunno, how do you feel about Multiclassing Fighter+Thug Fighter?


So in pathfinder there is an archetype that allows the Archer Fighter to bullrush with arrows (level 10?)

How does he Fighter fair if he could add DungeonCrasher (3.5) to that Archetype?

Add in Zen Archery... You would have a Str/Wis/Con Fighter who can dish out the damage insanely well at range.

I'm now making this for my next 3.P game...

Zen archer's utility is highly restricted by the character's needs for feats


I'm curious does that archtype let you deal damage while bullrushing? Because I can't imagine a way to shoot someone with an arrow hard enough to knock them back without hurting them at all.

Also, what's the point of Zen archery in that build? I mean, you could still combine all of that with Targeteer I think (as long as you're mixing PF archtypes with 3.5 ACFs), so you have every reason to want high dex.

Actually something like Targeteer Dungeoncrasher PFArcher Fighter10/Mystic Ranger 10 would be pretty great. You end up with 1 bonus feat from the Fighter, all the rest being traded out for Dungeoncrasher/Targeteer specials, 2 bonus feats from Mystic Ranger (Style Mastery gets pushed to level 12 so you don't get it here), but do still get access all the way up to 5th level spells, and after spending a feat on SotAO, you still have 11 feats left over to dedicate to archery/improved bullrushing.



This thread made me realize that it's possible to make a crit-fisher archer build of sorts.

With Targetteer Fighter 2 (or 4, if you want Vital Aim, i.e.: Dex to damage), you can get both Arrow Swarm and Sniper.

Arrow Swarm is dependent on, and compatible with, Rapid Shot. If making a full attack, this means three extra attacks (7@20). Sniper can then sacrifice six attacks in a full attack routine to add that same number to the threat range of the weapon. With nothing else, this equates to a 14-20/x3 Longbow.

Enter Deepwood Sniper. Among other goodies, at level 1, you get Keen Arrow, which makes all projectiles behave as if they were keen weapons. This means, right off the bat, a 8-20 threat range when using Sniper. At levels 2 and 7, you get Projectile Improved Critical +1 and +2, respectively. This means, @7, a 8-20/x5 Longbow. Make the Longbow of Kaorti Resin and you reach 8-20/x6, before any weapon enhancements.

Dip Warblade (or get Martial Maneuver+Martial Stance) for Blood in the Water and you're set for some fun and profit!

It's true that you'll be making a single attack at -7. It's also true that you can sacrifice less attacks for a decreased critical chance: 2@-7&10-20/x6, 3@-7&12-20/x6, 4@-7&14-20/x6.

You can, of course, still make an Arrow Swarm attack whenever you want. Combine everything with Wild Cohort for a decent mount and you can full attack much more reliably.

... Is this any good? :smallredface:

you always take at least 4 levels in Targeteer, You do not forgo Dex to Damage


Add in lighting maces + aptitude bow for maximum hilarity.

We are starting to make Rambow here, with Nigh-Infinite Attacks in a round at -7, a small penalty we dont even have to worry about when speccing the build properly.


whats the minimum dedication to scout needed for Swift Hunter? isnt it three?

[Larkas]

you always take at least 4 levels in Targeteer, You do not forgo Dex to Damage

Not so sure. I've been reading Vital Aim right now, and see, the targetteer may add his Dexterity modifier to his damage rolls with a ranged-weapon attack instead of his Strength bonus. This means that you'd have to be able to add a Str bonus in the first place for Vital Aim to do anything. Crossbows wouldn't qualify, as wouldn't regular bows. Composite bows need a minimum Str modifier in order to be used, so you'd essentially be trading out something you already have. This leaves us only with thrown weapons. So yeah, as written, Vital Aim would be useful only for shuriken builds. :smallfrown:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd let players get Dex-to-damage with Vital Aim using any ranged weapon. But RAW, that's not how things work. :smallfrown:

[TuggyNE]

I will admit that I haven't checked thoroughly (since I don't own half of the monster books), but are there really that many creatures with spellcasting or invocations? I mean, it's still one of the best FE choices, but I can't think of that many creatures that have actual arcane spellcasting (at least, not without class levels). In core it's, what, Araneas, Couatls, some Driders, Nagas, and Rakshasas?

SLAs count too, unless I am quite mistaken.


That, or you Multiclass Fighter and Targetteer so you can fight while you fight. I dunno, how do you feel about Multiclassing Fighter+Thug Fighter?

Yeah, that doesn't work.

[Karnith]

SLAs count too, unless I am quite mistaken.
Well, either my copy of Complete Mage has an error, or yours does (I don't see anything in the CM errata). Per Complete Mage:

[... Y]ou gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability (PH 47). The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities).(Emphasis mine)

[Seerow]

Well, either my copy of Complete Mage has an error, or yours does (I don't see anything in the CM errata). Per Complete Mage:
(Emphasis mine)

I have no horse in this particular argument, but I could see someone arguing that's referring to things like divine casters, psionic manifesters, incarnum users, etc. It'd be stretching (and I'd probably disagree with it if I had to make a ruling), but I can see the argument.

[Karnith]

I have no horse in this particular argument, but I could see someone arguing that's referring to things like divine casters, psionic manifesters, incarnum users, etc. It'd be stretching (and I'd probably disagree with it if I had to make a ruling), but I can see the argument.
... I am apparently being a bit thick tonight, so you're going to need to walk me through what you mean by this. The rule says that FE: Arcanists applies to creatures capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations; I'm not sure where other subsystems would enter into this.

[Seerow]

... I am apparently being a bit thick tonight, so you're going to need to walk me through what you mean by this. The rule says that FE: Arcanists applies to creatures capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations; I'm not sure where other subsystems would enter into this.

Basically a liberal reading could say, since it's specifying it works for invocations, the remaining bit is reinforcing it doesn't work on other subsystems.

Like I said, it's a pretty flimsy line. And it could be nobody believes that and they just misremembered the ability. It was just a possible argument I could see being raised. (And I've seen flimsier arguments made. See: Anytime someone starts talking about bloodlines as not being horrible)

[TuggyNE]

Well, either my copy of Complete Mage has an error, or yours does (I don't see anything in the CM errata). Per Complete Mage:
(Emphasis mine)

Apparently I am mistaken, then. So, while it's still a useful ability, it's not nearly as good as I was thinking.

[toapat]

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd let players get Dex-to-damage with Vital Aim using any ranged weapon. But RAW, that's not how things work. :smallfrown:

At no point does it say or imply that the dex modifier is capped by the strength modifier of the bow.

this means that all composite bows, and all thrown weapons benefit. Crossbows have Crossbow sniper.

[Zetapup]

whats the minimum dedication to scout needed for Swift Hunter? isnt it three?

Yup, you need Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, so 3 levels of scout. All I can say in response to that build is wow.

[toapat]

Yup, you need Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, so 3 levels of scout. All I can say in response to that build is wow.

im certain there are much more optimal options for offense then Swift hunter but its very standard and ranger is pretty solid. That and you can cut out a decent number of levels from Mystic Ranger without hurting that class at all, which then calls for taking as many ranger+FE advancing levels as possible.

Edit:

With Mystic Ranger 13, 4 Targeteer, and 3 Scout we get 3 Favored Enemies, all 3 Targetteer specials, and +4d6/+4 ac

[Vogonjeltz]

Well, they don't stack, but i'll still argue that it's not the same as throwing a bone - many classical enemies are of several types, especially if we count FW(Arcane) (liches, demons, devils, dragons, etc.). And it still can exceed +10 with magic items and feats easily.

About FAQ - it's a clarification of rulings, and it totally counts unless it's contradicts original rulings (to overrule the official rulings or add something to them, you'll need an errata or splatbook, but for clarification FAQ is fine). The designers clearly tell that Standard Action and attack action aren't same thing. Besides, if your argument that standard action as an attack and therefore is attack action, then full-attack action is also the attack, so it's possible to make full-attack action with conjunction of Shot On The Run.

P.S. And if you'll try to argue that standard action is one attack, then i'll argue that mnayshot is actually not a one attack, but also several of them. And there are maneuvers and powers than can make one ranged attack as full-round action, so is it possible to use them with SotR feat?

I think Manyshot functions off 1 attack roll, so by my book that's only one attack (assuming I'm not forgetting something, entirely possible).


Also, on the Mounted Archery debate: Mounted Archery is only useful if you need to double-move on a mount while using archery. Double-moving on a mount while using archery is only useful if you have a lot of open space to kite. If you have a lot of open space to kite, then encounter distances become important, which means you need enough Spot to see your enemies, since Spot takes a -1 penalty per 10ft of distance. Which means the Ranger wins again.

Yeah mounted combat is only useful when kiting people, this is possible in most outdoor environments I would imagine.

[toapat]

Yeah mounted combat is only useful when kiting people, this is possible in most outdoor environments I would imagine.

and the standard of archery in 3.5 is to fling weather spells onto targets miles away using ballistic physics calculations as a standard action. Mounted Archery is only good for scrubs who dont want to nuke it from orbit

[Big Fau]

Yeah mounted combat is only useful when kiting people, this is possible in most outdoor environments I would imagine.

Only if what you're fighting isn't also mounted or capable of outrunning your mount. Dragons, for example, are very capable of chowing down on a mounted archer.

[TuggyNE]

I think Manyshot functions off 1 attack roll, so by my book that's only one attack (assuming I'm not forgetting something, entirely possible).

That doesn't help much, since there are numerous examples of abilities (class features, spells, maybe feats) that require a full-round action or even more and involve only one attack roll. Do those also get a free pass?

[MirddinEmris]

Also Greater Manyshot is a standard action, but several attack rolls. Are you telling that Manyshot can work with Shot on the Run, but greater version of it suddenly doesn't?

[toapat]

Only if what you're fighting isn't also mounted or capable of outrunning your mount. Dragons, for example, are very capable of chowing down on a mounted archer.

The Easy guide to using a mount:

Are you a Paladin or Knight?
Yes: Congradulations, enjoy badass. Replace the horse ASAP though with something that has special abilities, or flight
No: Dont use one in combat, Or you become a Dragonic Combo meal.

[Larkas]

At no point does it say or imply that the dex modifier is capped by the strength modifier of the bow.

this means that all composite bows, and all thrown weapons benefit. Crossbows have Crossbow sniper.

Arguable. If you're substituting Str, and Str can only go so high, one could say that the substitute could also only go so high. Of course, the problem fades away when you're using the Energy Bow.

[animewatcha]

Explain to me about keen versus the sniper when keen isn't compatible with most things that mod crit range?

Also, the bonus feat listing is from when dragon magazine was 'barely' into 3.5e so most later books and sterf are okay for adding additional fighter feats to the 'modified list'.

[Vogonjeltz]

That doesn't help much, since there are numerous examples of abilities (class features, spells, maybe feats) that require a full-round action or even more and involve only one attack roll. Do those also get a free pass?

A pass? The full-round action can not be coupled with a move action, though it can be coupled with a 5 foot step.

Where's the problem?

*how does using the mount make one a "dragonic combo meal"? This seems to be implying that not getting on a Pegasus somehow makes a character more versatile. What is the downside?

[Azoth]

Basically, if you don't have a special mount/animal companion/high HD creature as a mount you are alot more vulnerable to dragons (read: any high CR foe worth his double digits). This vulnerability is born from the mount's low HP and saves. It simply can't survive those kinds of combats and is a liability.

For your Pegasus comment. Picture taking to the sky to chase the dragon so he is within a single range increment to avoid To-Hit penalties. Now that you are airborne, and not by your own power, the dragon can unleash a breath weapon/bloodwind+full attack combo/any other number of bad things. Congratulations! You are now about to be introduced to terra firma via gravity, odds are land prone, and still primed to recieve punishment before you can do anything to save yourself.

[TuggyNE]

A pass? The full-round action can not be coupled with a move action, though it can be coupled with a 5 foot step.

So, it's a problem with action economy? Good to know.

A similar problem arises when trying to stuff a standard-action-shaped feat into an attack-action-shaped slot, because just because there's only one attack roll doesn't mean it's an attack action.

[Vogonjeltz]

Basically, if you don't have a special mount/animal companion/high HD creature as a mount you are alot more vulnerable to dragons (read: any high CR foe worth his double digits). This vulnerability is born from the mount's low HP and saves. It simply can't survive those kinds of combats and is a liability.

For your Pegasus comment. Picture taking to the sky to chase the dragon so he is within a single range increment to avoid To-Hit penalties. Now that you are airborne, and not by your own power, the dragon can unleash a breath weapon/bloodwind+full attack combo/any other number of bad things. Congratulations! You are now about to be introduced to terra firma via gravity, odds are land prone, and still primed to recieve punishment before you can do anything to save yourself.

Why would anyone place themselves in such a dangerous position (high altitude, no backup if they fall off their mount, in range of a dragon for a +2 to hit??


So, it's a problem with action economy? Good to know.

A similar problem arises when trying to stuff a standard-action-shaped feat into an attack-action-shaped slot, because just because there's only one attack roll doesn't mean it's an attack action.

No it is a: the rules state you may not use move or standard actions when making a full-round action. Even if you had access to bonus move/standard actions, by primary source RAW it would not be possible.

[MirddinEmris]

No it is a: the rules state you may not use move or standard actions when making a full-round action. Even if you had access to bonus move/standard actions, by primary source RAW it would not be possible.

And dnd is a mechanics about rules and exceptions. Like ules of Counterspells state that you should use dispel magic or the same spell, ehile Improved Counterspell feat make an exception allowing to use spell from the same school. Or the RAW rules that says that you can't split move action but Shot on the Run feat allowing to make an exception form this rule. So, obviuosly, this feat also make an exception form the rule that you can't combine a full-attack and move action, because full-attack as in attack action

And you didn't answer me about Greater Manyshot. Your interpretation of rules implies that i can combine Manyshot with Shot on th Run, but can't do this with Greater Manyshot.

[Telok]

Using Leadership a 12th level character can gain, as a cohort...
A Dragonne, 76hp, 18ac, f9 / r8 / w4, speed 40 & fly 30.
A Griffon, 59hp, 17ac, f8 / r7 / w5, speed 30 & fly 80.

Using Wild Cohort a 12th level character can gain...
A Dire Bat (character level -6), 52hp, 23ac (16 touch), f7 / r10 / w6, speed 20 & fly 40.

At level 12 said character may face...
Kolyarut, with a +10 Enervation 200' ranged touch attack, a DC 17 Hold Monster, and at-will Fear also with a DC 17 Will save. While it can't fly it does gather information about it's target and use Disguise Self to get close before attacking. With a 17 Wisdom it probably won't try to fight on the open plain, it will fight indoors where the mount is useless.
Mature Adult White Dragon, this sucker flies at 200' and has a DC 21 Frightful Presence to panic your mount with. A single tail slap at +27 for 2d6+12 will stop your mount from flying in two or three hits, if the dragon Power Attacks or full attacks your mount you automatically stop flying because the mount is at 0hp.
Cauchemar Nightmare, with a 90' fly speed and +23 for 2d6+10+1d4 attacks this thing will make short work your mount. Plus it will have concealment and force a DC 24 Fort save every round. Of course this 16 Intelligence critter is going to be using it's at-will Astral Projection to attack you with it's projection untill you manage to track down it's lair and face it in the flesh, assuming of course that you can get it to stick around for the fight.
Dread Wraith, these only have a mere 60' fly speed (still better than most of your mounts) and do a measley 1d8 Con drain with a DC 25 Fort save. It's the 17 Intelligence and 18 Wisdom that are going to kill you. It'll hang out incorporeal and underground untill you living, breathing, tired mount is forced to land by fatigue or exhaustion.

Let's face it, if you're facing something that's smart enough to not want you to be mounted then your mount is going to be dog chow.

Of course you can buy a mount too. Lets look at that Pegasus. 34hp, 14ac, f7 / r6 / w4, and a nice 120' fly speed. Congratulations you've spent 3,000 gold on something that can out-fly the astrally projecting Nightmare, won't help against the others, and has around half the hp. Seriously, people do and take 34 damage starting at fourth level and it's ac is a joke. Every time you get within bow range of ten 1st level elven warriors your mount is facing a deadly threat. Every thousand gold you spend on your mount and it's replacements is more money don't get to spend on your own armor and weapons. It's going to add up quickly when an encounter half of your CR can kill your mount and encounters of your CR can kill it by accident when they target you with AoE effects (Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning).

[ben-zayb]

I'd go for Ranger even just with sheer versatility: scout, stealth, DPS, first-aid, and Animal Companion.
Other reasons:
Swift Hunter, (extra damage in Standard Action form)
Champions of Ruin Ranger Spells (e.g. Splitting Arrow)
Mystic Ranger
Wis-Class dips: Shou Disciple, Soulbow, and Monk.
Zen Archery MADness
Spot MADNESS
delicious Favored Enemy (e.g. Arcanist, Evil, Organization)

[Nihilarian]

The Easy guide to using a mount:

Are you a Paladin or Knight?
Yes: Congradulations, enjoy badass. Replace the horse ASAP though with something that has special abilities, or flight
No: Dont use one in combat, Or you become a Dragonic Combo meal.Knight's don't get special mounts, though.
Arguable. If you're substituting Str, and Str can only go so high, one could say that the substitute could also only go so high. Of course, the problem fades away when you're using the Energy Bow.Note: Everyone should be using the Energy Bow. Even if you're not primarily ranged, it's an excellent backup weapon.

[Big Fau]

Why would anyone place themselves in such a dangerous position (high altitude, no backup if they fall off their mount, in range of a dragon for a +2 to hit??

Because if you are at maximum range you can't harm the dragon (spellcasting has a high percentage chance of negating the Nat 20, thanks to spells like Blur or Invisibility). You need to be close enough to hit reliably, and most flying mounts are significantly slower than a CR-appropriate dragon's fly speed.

Look at it this way: If the dragon has the Combat Reflexes feat, what's stopping it from using the Run action to get you within it's melee reach and grappling you off of your mount when you inevitably provoke an AoO? Past a certain point even the Withdraw action won't help.

And if you aren't flying, you're going to get hosed by the fact that the dragon is. Never mind that dragons often live in places where mounted archery is a suicidal tactic.


This is really starting to look like Pickford's argument...

[Vogonjeltz]

And dnd is a mechanics about rules and exceptions. Like ules of Counterspells state that you should use dispel magic or the same spell, ehile Improved Counterspell feat make an exception allowing to use spell from the same school. Or the RAW rules that says that you can't split move action but Shot on the Run feat allowing to make an exception form this rule. So, obviuosly, this feat also make an exception form the rule that you can't combine a full-attack and move action, because full-attack as in attack action

And you didn't answer me about Greater Manyshot. Your interpretation of rules implies that i can combine Manyshot with Shot on th Run, but can't do this with Greater Manyshot.

I don't actually know what greater Manyshot does. It sounds like a separate feat though.


Because if you are at maximum range you can't harm the dragon (spellcasting has a high percentage chance of negating the Nat 20, thanks to spells like Blur or Invisibility). You need to be close enough to hit reliably, and most flying mounts are significantly slower than a CR-appropriate dragon's fly speed.

The example given was someone moving to be <1 range increment away, not the maximum range out. Blur is negated by improved precise shot. You seem inexperienced with characters designed for either archery or mounted combat, every ranger for example, has improved precise shot.

[Gwendol]

So, it looks like the ranger pulls ahead partly on versatility, unless Targeteer fighter is considered?

[TuggyNE]

I don't actually know what greater Manyshot does. It sounds like a separate feat though.

It's a separate feat with Manyshot as a prerequisite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot). Printed in XPH, but is not [psionic].

[Incanur]

Spell Compendium spells like hunter's mercy and swift haste really help the ranger here. Hunter's mercy is freaking awesome. :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

Spell Compendium spells like hunter's mercy and swift haste really help the ranger here. Hunter's mercy is freaking awesome. :smallsmile:

Yes, but it only applies for a single shot, and takes a standard action to activate. All in all it becomes a wash. Not useless though, but not generally great either.

[Yorrin]

I've just read all the posts in this thread, and I'm amazed that nobody really pointed out the #1 criteria for what makes one non-caster better at something than another non-caster. Namely- how few levels can each class do this in?

I'd argue that fighter can make a better archer simply because he can do it in fewer levels, allowing for more/better PrCs and multiclassing into something that's better than archery.

And yes, I realize that Ranger is technically a caster. But Ranger casting doesn't come online until level four, and even then he doesn't get any of the game changing archery spells. Whereas a Fighter can pick up all the relevant archery feats in his four levels and then multiclass to something else more useful than archery. Or even do a simple Fighter 4/Soulknife 2/Soulbow x/Shiba Protector 1 with Zen archery for a Wis SAD build.

Note that this mostly applies to low-mid op, as high op builds (such as the Targeteer Deepwood Sniper dual Aptitude hand crossbow build of awesomeness in this thread) often will rely on specific amounts of both classes rather than assuming anything resembling Fighter 20 vs Ranger 20 (both of which are terrible builds, especially for an archer).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I've just read all the posts in this thread, and I'm amazed that nobody really pointed out the #1 criteria for what makes one non-caster better at something than another non-caster. Namely- how few levels can each class do this in?

I'd argue that fighter can make a better archer simply because he can do it in fewer levels, allowing for more/better PrCs and multiclassing into something that's better than archery.

And yes, I realize that Ranger is technically a caster. But Ranger casting doesn't come online until level four, and even then he doesn't get any of the game changing archery spells. Whereas a Fighter can pick up all the relevant archery feats in his four levels and then multiclass to something else more useful than archery. Or even do a simple Fighter 4/Soulknife 2/Soulbow x/Shiba Protector 1 with Zen archery for a Wis SAD build.

Note that this mostly applies to low-mid op, as high op builds (such as the Targeteer Deepwood Sniper dual Aptitude hand crossbow build of awesomeness in this thread) often will rely on specific amounts of both classes rather than assuming anything resembling Fighter 20 vs Ranger 20 (both of which are terrible builds, especially for an archer).

Wait so part of your argument for Fighter over Ranger is that it is a better dip class?

Just wanted to see if I read that right.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've just read all the posts in this thread, and I'm amazed that nobody really pointed out the #1 criteria for what makes one non-caster better at something than another non-caster. Namely- how few levels can each class do this in?

I'd argue that fighter can make a better archer simply because he can do it in fewer levels, allowing for more/better PrCs and multiclassing into something that's better than archery.

And yes, I realize that Ranger is technically a caster. But Ranger casting doesn't come online until level four, and even then he doesn't get any of the game changing archery spells. Whereas a Fighter can pick up all the relevant archery feats in his four levels and then multiclass to something else more useful than archery. Or even do a simple Fighter 4/Soulknife 2/Soulbow x/Shiba Protector 1 with Zen archery for a Wis SAD build.

Note that this mostly applies to low-mid op, as high op builds (such as the Targeteer Deepwood Sniper dual Aptitude hand crossbow build of awesomeness in this thread) often will rely on specific amounts of both classes rather than assuming anything resembling Fighter 20 vs Ranger 20 (both of which are terrible builds, especially for an archer).

That is a perfectly reasonable argument for Archery in general, but this particular thread is specifically about which is better at archery a Ranger 20 vs. a Fighter 20 build.

In this case even if the Ranger has mediocre spellcasting, it still loads better than Fighter. Many people have said that Targeteer fighter gives him an edge, but if we are taking Dragon into account I counter with Mystic Ranger which simply blows the targeteer out of the water even without SotAO. Ranger spells are actually quite good.

[Yorrin]

Wait so part of your argument for Fighter over Ranger is that it is a better dip class?

Just wanted to see if I read that right.

Precisely. For most mundane builds below T3 (and even some of those) you get more out of dipping around and multiclassing like crazy than you do out of sticking to long levels of any single class. Exceptions exist, of course, but that's true more often than not. Take the ridiculous build posted in this very thread. As it stands now I believe it's a multicalssed fighter/ranger/scout with at least one PrC.


That is a perfectly reasonable argument for Archery in general, but this particular thread is specifically about which is better at archery a Ranger 20 vs. a Fighter 20 build.

I did not realize that. In that case my above comment are wholly off-topic and irrelevant. I apologize.

[Big Fau]

The example given was someone moving to be <1 range increment away, not the maximum range out. Blur is negated by improved precise shot. You seem inexperienced with characters designed for either archery or mounted combat, every ranger for example, has improved precise shot.

I actually do, and IPS only negates a handful of spells at most (Invisibility, for example, doesn't care about the feat). There are others that negate your ability to harm the dragon, and several that just screw the entire character for merely existing.

And since IPS doesn't happen until 11th, you have to deal with any method the Dragon has of gaining concealment. A Juvenile Black, for example, can use Darkness and just run you down. An Adult White can use Gust of Wind and force you off of your mount (since you're flying, unless you're large you are affected by the spell).

Never mind that, at the lower levels (pre-10th), it's nearly impossible for an archer to kill a Dragon of the appropriate EL before the Dragon can get within range of it's Breath Weapon and AoO reach. A single AoO against the rider means a grapple check, and that means GG for any archer.

And since this thread is about 20th level, all bets are off unless you get a surprise round and can kill the Dragon during it. Good luck with that, as they have the same anti-surprise capabilities a Sorcerer has.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Precisely. For most mundane builds below T3 (and even some of those) you get more out of dipping around and multiclassing like crazy than you do out of sticking to long levels of any single class. Exceptions exist, of course, but that's true more often than not. Take the ridiculous build posted in this very thread. As it stands now I believe it's a multicalssed fighter/ranger/scout with at least one PrC.



I did not realize that. In that case my above comment are wholly off-topic and irrelevant. I apologize.


So your argument boils down to...

The best class is the one you bail out of faster.

That is like saying you would rather go to Vanceburg Ky than Las Vegas for a free vacation because you can do everything in Vanceburg in one day and it would take you a week yo do everything in Las Vegas. You can get back from your vacation faster and have done everything whereas the vegas vacation would be longer and you wouldn't have been able to do everything.

*Note: I grew up in Vanceburg Ky.

[Haldir]

It's a fair point. Waiting a level to get Rapid Shot is a kick in the groin.

[Yorrin]

So your argument boils down to...

The best class is the one you bail out of faster.

That is like saying you would rather go to Vanceburg Ky than Las Vegas for a free vacation because you can do everything in Vanceburg in one day and it would take you a week yo do everything in Las Vegas. You can get back from your vacation faster and have done everything whereas the vegas vacation would be longer and you wouldn't have been able to do everything.

*Note: I grew up in Vanceburg Ky.

Actually I'd rather go to Key Largo and spend my entire vacation on the beach relaxing, but that's neither here nor there.

What I'm saying is you want the class with the least opportunity cost. In this case you get the tools you need to be an effective archer in fewer levels of fighter, so you can take levels in something else to increase effectiveness even further.

Moreover this is especially true of archery, which is a suboptimal means of combat in the first place. That means the fewest level spent the more levels you have to pick up an actually decent combat style. Which isn't to say archery always sucks, but it's kinda like a T5 class. You can optimize the mess out of it, but at equal levels of optimization you're still going to get outclassed by melee (T4) or BFC (T2) etc.

[Togo]

If you get everything you need in fewer levels of fighter, than you would in ranger, then fighter is better for every situation where you would rather spend the difference in levels on something other than gaining ranger abilities.

For example, you can pick improved precise shot as a ranger. Or you can focus on getting it earlier as a fighter. Or you can just get a seeking bow, in which case you probably don't need it at all.

[Yorrin]

If you get everything you need in fewer levels of fighter, than you would in ranger, then fighter is better for every situation where you would rather spend the difference in levels on something other than gaining ranger abilities.

For example, you can pick improved precise shot as a ranger. Or you can focus on getting it earlier as a fighter. Or you can just get a seeking bow, in which case you probably don't need it at all.

Which is why I only use Ranger for Wildshape Ranger, Swift Hunter, or ACF chaining >_>

[Donny_Green]

Can we all agree that no matter your base class it's always a good idea to take the PC Order of the Bow Initiate (AKA) I do melee attacks with my bow without AoO, and stack d8's every other level.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Order of the Bow initiate is trap, those extra d8s come as a standard action, the main bulk of Archery damage comes from multiples attacks. And as a dedicated ranger you shouldn't be in melee range anyway; if you are you are doing it wrong and probably already dead.

[Incanur]

Yes, but it only applies for a single shot, and takes a standard action to activate. All in all it becomes a wash. Not useless though, but not generally great either.

It's only genuinely good when you're ambushing or if you can quicken it, but it excels there.

As far as ranger 20 vs. fighter 20 goes, I think they do roughly comparable damage but the ranger has way, way more versatility. The fighter might do a little more damage on average, but the ranger's skills make going first more likely.

Rangers can be great skill monkeys, especially with an urban companion. A fighter archer has to work at it just to able to get a high enough spot check.

[Nihilarian]

Can we all agree that no matter your base class it's always a good idea to take the PC Order of the Bow Initiate (AKA) I do melee attacks with my bow without AoO, and stack d8's every other level.No. OotBI is terrible. Even if you're dedicated to the concept of one high powered attack per round, there's better methods. And that's not how it works, anyway. You're still making ranged attacks, your just no longer getting smacked around for doing so (assuming you're dumb enough to be in melee range in the first place).

[Talya]

Note that if you use the Mystic Ranger variant, you far eclipse both standard ranger and fighter at archery.

(Oh, surprise, spells win again.)

[Haldir]

Ranger outside of core is a t3 class. JaronK stiffed them.:smallmad:

[Incanur]

Ranger outside of core is a t3 class. JaronK stiffed them.:smallmad:

I'm sympathetic to this argument, though I can also see how the ranger falls into the decent-at-a-lot-of-things aspect of tier 4 alongside the rogue. Unfortunately, the ranger is rather MAD class and Sword of the Arcane Order only makes it worse. (With SotAO you want at least a 14 in every ability except Cha.)

[Azoth]

The stats can be fixed with ability boosting items. You aren't that bad off really.

[Haldir]

I'm sympathetic to this argument, though I can also see how the ranger falls into the decent-at-a-lot-of-things aspect of tier 4 alongside the rogue. Unfortunately, the ranger is rather MAD class and Sword of the Arcane Order only makes it worse. (With SotAO you want at least a 14 in every ability except Cha.)

This depends on your combat style I think. Archery can easily swing Zen Archery and dump most of the physical stats safely, IMHO. SotAO can get you all the buffing power you really need, if for whatever reason you want to be physical. Bump Wis, Con, Int. Slightly mad, yes, but no more so than most of the other T3's.

[Seerow]

I'm sympathetic to this argument, though I can also see how the ranger falls into the decent-at-a-lot-of-things aspect of tier 4 alongside the rogue. Unfortunately, the ranger is rather MAD class and Sword of the Arcane Order only makes it worse. (With SotAO you want at least a 14 in every ability except Cha.)

That depends on the build. You could go Zen Archery and effectively make dex a dump stat. I think there's some trick to get Dex as your stat for casting (one of the Illumian Sigils? I know there's one for Str to spell slots), which can let you dump Wisdom instead. SotAO just makes it so you want 15 int by level 10, and 13 by level 6. You can pull that off with an 11 and stat boosting items in a pinch.

Also since you're playing as a ranged character, dumping con, while not the best choice, isn't going to hurt you as much as it would for a more melee focused character.


You can totally make an optimized Ranger function on a 28-32 point buy. 25 is pretty rough, but probably still doable.

[Incanur]

This depends on your combat style I think. Archery can easily swing Zen Archery and dump most of the physical stats safely, IMHO. SotAO can get you all the buffing power you really need, if for whatever reason you want to be physical. Bump Wis, Con, Int. Slightly mad, yes, but no more so than most of the other T3's.

Without Str, you can't melee decently without at least a few feats and will have trouble doing decent ranged damaged. Without Dex, your AC will be bad, and initiative will be lower. Dumping those seems dangerous, especially as the lower levels.

All martial characters want Con, Dex, and Str to some extent, but I think all the ToB classes are less MAD than the ranger, especially the SotAO ranger. And beguilers are as SAD as wizards.

[Haldir]

Fist of Stone is a great way to get the STR you need, making this a safe dump. I do not condone melee combat in 3.5.

Dex isn't terribly important, but it is arguably more important than Con.

Con might be decent to dump. I do not condone melee combat in 3.5. If I do worry about getting hit, I am rocking Mage Armor and Mirror Image.

Edit- It just occurs to me, saying that the Ranger is not T3 because it doesn't do something that the majority of the higher tier classes don't do is kinda weird. If the Ranger wants to be T3, it should emulate T1 and T2 classes and stick to versatility. Hitting things with a stick, while fun, is so terribly ineffective.

[Yorrin]

I do not condone melee combat in 3.5.
...
I do not condone melee combat in 3.5.

Just because you don't condone it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mirror Image is a fine defense, but not one relevant to the builds here. And dumping Con is never a good idea. You can TO all you want, but you're going to get hit many times at low-mid levels. That's just the nature of the game. Surviving until high levels involves a decent Con score.

[Haldir]

Con dump is something you can do, not necessarily that you want to. The important point is that it doesn't need to be pumped, necessarily, unless you want to actively engage in foolish combat behavior. I have had plenty of characters survive to late levels with a 12 Con and an item to boost it.

[Talya]

Mirror Image is a fine defense, but not one relevant to the builds here.

What now? Ranger w/SotAO can cast Mirror Image.

[Yorrin]

What now? Ranger w/SotAO can cast Mirror Image.

Ah, indeed. I suppose it can, at that. I stand corrected.

[Incanur]

Characters with 12 or even 10 Con can work - I've seen a few in the games I've DMed - they're just not optimal. (In one case, the PC was a necromancer who ended up going lich, so you could say it paid off.)

I could see dumping Str and maybe even Dex doing well for casting-focused ranger - ideally mystic ranger - with SotAO. Without SotAO and/or mystic ranger, though, the spellcasting doesn't strike me as good enough to really focus on.

Now, with wild shape you can really dump physical to your heart's content if don't mind sucking before it comes online. Past level 6 or so a wild shape ranger should be able outdo the fighter in archery if the more broken forms are allow. (Hi, I'm a legendary ape.)

As far as the ranger's animal companion goes, it's not great, but an 8th-level ranger can get a dire bat for a mobile archery platform. That's definitely better than your stock warhorse.

[Haldir]

I could see dumping Str and maybe even Dex doing well for casting-focused ranger - ideally mystic ranger - with SotAO. Without SotAO and/or mystic ranger, though, the spellcasting doesn't strike me as good enough to really focus on.

This is pretty much the core of my argument. As long as you get Sword of the Arcane Order you are a T3, even at the delayed progression.