Beguilers, Shadowcrafters and Shadowcraft Mages.

[Ethelesin]

So recently i've been itching to roll a beguiler, specifically i wanna go with something along the lines of Beguiler5/Shadowcrafter10/Shadowcraft mage5. However, given the 3rd level shadow spell requirement for shadowcrafter, and beguilers following the sorcerer progression i am at a loss at how to enter the class at level 6 and thus i come here for advice, so any takers? By the way, lets assume the "adaptation" section for the shadowcraft mage is in effect and entry as a human is possible. Thanks in advance.

[Ansem]

Versatile Spellcaster lets you enter by RAW.

[(Un)Inspired]

Perhaps some sort of precocious apprentice-heighten spell-sanctum spell shenanigans?

[Segev]

Versatile Spellcaster lets you enter by RAW.

Only if you can somehow know a 3rd level spell before 6th level. Versatile Spellcaster only gives you spell SLOTS, not spells known.

[Rebel7284]

Versatile Spellcaster lets you enter by RAW.

More specifically when combined with Heighten Spell.

Note that Versatile Spellcaster is a great feat even when not used for early entry. =)

[Nightraiderx]

beguiler's know their entire list, same trick can be applied to warmages and dread necros.

[Urpriest]

Basically, you need an early-entry trick.

Here, the easiest would be taking Earth Sense, Earth Spell, and Heighten, thus being able to Heighten a spell to one spell level higher than you could normally cast. I say easiest only because this is a trick that most Shadowcraft Mages pick up anyway, so it won't cost you anything "extra" like other tricks might.

That said, in general early entry tricks are controversial and heavily argued over. You'd be best served by asking your DM which of the various known early entry tricks are ok with them, and then figuring out which one of those works best for you. You'll need a "general" early entry trick, since AFAIK there aren't any specific to your case (besides the Versatile Spellcaster trick maybe being easier to use).

[Nightraiderx]

Alignment: Disguise 4 ranks.
Skills: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Focus (Illusion)
Spells: Able to cast any 3rd-level or higher spell with the illusion (shadow) descriptor.


I believe that versatile caster will work because it asks for the ABILITY to be able to cast any 3rd-level spell, not to know them. And I have to remember the heighten spell trick for sorcerer/favored soul early entry stuff (wouldn't work here but I can think of a few (be able to cast 3rd level spells) requirements.

[Segev]

beguiler's know their entire list, same trick can be applied to warmages and dread necros.

...huh. That's an interesting way to look at it. So by that interpretation, Versatile Spellcaster would actually allow a 1st level Beguiler to cast a 2nd level spell by spending two 1st level slots, because he knows his second level spell list. Is that right?

[Rebel7284]

...huh. That's an interesting way to look at it. So by that interpretation, Versatile Spellcaster would actually allow a 1st level Beguiler to cast a 2nd level spell by spending two 1st level slots, because he knows his second level spell list. Is that right?

That is ONE interpretation. I think MOST DMs would not approve this specifically for balance reasons. =)


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.

You certainly can cast 2nd level spells a bunch of times a day... so does that count as "gaining access to a new level of spells" ?

[Nightraiderx]

well, you could technically apply heighten metamagic on a 1st level spell that's known and technically using versatile caster you would be casting 2nd level spells. (even if the ruling for the known spells debate was turned down.) then it would be more an issue of how heighten metamagic would influence prestige class's perquisites involving the ability to cast a certain level of spells. beguilers/warmages/dreadnecros are tier 3 anyways, so I am not sure if it would influence balance in a higher level game.

[Yawgmoth]

That is ONE interpretation. I think MOST DMs would not approve this specifically for balance reasons. =) Actually no, most DMs allow this because it works. Beguiler/DN/warmage know their entire spell list, and VS gives you access to higher level spell slots via spending two of a slot one lower. It really isn't "unbalanced" any more than spellcasting in 3.5 already is. If you want to house rule in a line of "you can't gain access to higher level spells than you could normally cast" then that's your prerogative as a DM, but it would be just that: a house rule. It would also make VS a lot less desirable as a feat.

[Rebel7284]

Actually no, most DMs allow this because it works.

Ok, we know different people. =)



Beguiler/DN/warmage know their entire spell list


As my quote clearly says, they do not. They gain access to their whole spelllist as they level...


and VS gives you access to higher level spell slots via spending two of a slot one lower. It really isn't "unbalanced" any more than spellcasting in 3.5 already is.


Gaining access to unbalanced abilities early is exactly that...

The issue with your line of thinking is that gaining access to a new level of spells is not clearly defined. If you assume that gaining access to a new level of spells means that you can cast spells of that level, well than the beguiler normally NEVER learns new spells.

the quote again:

When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.

So a beguiler that leveled to level 4 finds has level 2 slots but doesn't automatically know any spells of second level until he can actually cast a second level spell... a catch 22.

This is patiently ridiculous.

Therefore, "gain access to spells of X level" needs to have a different definition than just being able to cast spells of that level.

[Segev]

Actually no, most DMs allow this because it works. Beguiler/DN/warmage know their entire spell list, and VS gives you access to higher level spell slots via spending two of a slot one lower. It really isn't "unbalanced" any more than spellcasting in 3.5 already is. If you want to house rule in a line of "you can't gain access to higher level spells than you could normally cast" then that's your prerogative as a DM, but it would be just that: a house rule. It would also make VS a lot less desirable as a feat.

I think you severely overestimate the permissiveness of "most DMs" when it comes to RAW versus RAE (rules-as-expected). And the last sentence is also a bit questionable: the obvious intent behind the feat is to allow you to cast more higher-level spells per day than normal; extending that to "obviously, it's meant to allow these specific classes with unusual rules on spells known to have spell levels much higher than normal wizards can manage" is a bit off-kilter.

[Chronos]

If you need Heighten for the Versatile Spellcaster trick to work, then it probably won't work at all. You don't need just any 3rd level spell; you specifically need a 3rd level shadow spell, and I don't think the Beguiler has any of those at spell level 1 or 2 (at 3rd they have Legion of Sentinels). Though I suppose you could get around this by using your 5th-level Advanced Learning on Dark Bridge.

[Rebel7284]

A quick search on http://www.imarvintpa.com shows there are several other options besides Dark Way, but it's certainly a good point.

[Crake]

Basically, you need an early-entry trick.

Here, the easiest would be taking Earth Sense, Earth Spell, and Heighten, thus being able to Heighten a spell to one spell level higher than you could normally cast. I say easiest only because this is a trick that most Shadowcraft Mages pick up anyway, so it won't cost you anything "extra" like other tricks might.

That said, in general early entry tricks are controversial and heavily argued over. You'd be best served by asking your DM which of the various known early entry tricks are ok with them, and then figuring out which one of those works best for you. You'll need a "general" early entry trick, since AFAIK there aren't any specific to your case (besides the Versatile Spellcaster trick maybe being easier to use).

why is this always the suggest I see posted instead of say.. snowcasting, which only requires 1 feat?

Edit: I'm genuinely interested, is there a reason in particular?

[Ethelesin]

So basically grabbing either Net of Shadows or Dead End (both are first level illusion spells with the shadow descriptor so i can pick them up via advanced learning at level 3). Then grabbing Earth Sense, Earth Spell, and Heighten Spell and then Spell focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) qualify me for taking shadowcrafter as my sixth level?

[Urpriest]

why is this always the suggest I see posted instead of say.. snowcasting, which only requires 1 feat?

Edit: I'm genuinely interested, is there a reason in particular?

Huh, interesting. I'd seen it suggested in Enchanting guides, but not in this context. It's not great for a Beguiler since you only get the level bonus when the spell already has the Cold descriptor, and I can't think of any [Shadow, Cold] spells. Plus the move action is annoying for practical use by an SCM, though my understanding is that some people think that can be avoided somehow.

[Ethelesin]

Snowcasting seems pretty interesting but as Urpriest says the lack of a [Shadow, Cold] spell and the requirement of expending a move action hinders practical application.

[Keld Denar]

If you are wanting to do the ScM Shadow Illusion trick, you pretty much need Earth Spell + Heighten anyway.

Good luck getting enough feats on a Beguiler though, esp without the human bonus feat. You need at least 4 feats in 5 levels, which is only doable with 2 flaws and doesn't allow for any others. Wizard is the superior chassis, IMO. The versatility you gain from the Shadow Illusion ability makes up for the versatility Beguiler would give you. There is a point when you sacrifice too much for an amount of versatility you don't actually need. The cost/benefit ratio just isn't high enough.

[Urpriest]

If you are wanting to do the ScM Shadow Illusion trick, you pretty much need Earth Spell + Heighten anyway.

Good luck getting enough feats on a Beguiler though, esp without the human bonus feat. You need at least 4 feats in 5 levels, which is only doable with 2 flaws and doesn't allow for any others. Wizard is the superior chassis, IMO. The versatility you gain from the Shadow Illusion ability makes up for the versatility Beguiler would give you. There is a point when you sacrifice too much for an amount of versatility you don't actually need. The cost/benefit ratio just isn't high enough.

The OP is going for a human, IIRC. Still a tough build and still requires flaws, but I don't think it's entirely unviable by any means.

[Ethelesin]

The OP is going for a human, IIRC.
Yes, im going for a human, cant really think of another way to get Earth sense, Earth Spell, Heighten spell, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Illusion in the space of five levels.

[HammeredWharf]

Is there any specific reason why you want Shadowcrafter 10? 6-8 levels of that class would be more than enough IMO. The last two aren't worth spending feats on.

[Ethelesin]

Thematic reasons mostly, sides im a total sucker for completion, it's almost as if the act of dipping is physically painful to me, silly i know but, there ya go.

[Person_Man]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing the synergy of Beguiler/Shadowcrafter/Shadowcraft Mage.

Beguiler is really good at Skills, utility, illusions, and enchantments.

Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft Mage are mostly about Shadow Evocation and Conjuration. While on the surface these belong in the illusion school, they're basically just versatile mid-level blasting and summoning.

In theory you could put it all together at high levels to get a character that can do a ton of different things. But really, any high level Tier 1-2 caster is going to do a ton of different things effectively by virtue of having so many spells per day. And Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and their Greater version are a lot less useful at high levels, because they're a lot less powerful then 7th, 8th, and 9th level Evocation and Conjuration spells.

What is it that you want to do, exactly, and what ECL will the game be starting at?

[Psyren]

Only if you can somehow know a 3rd level spell before 6th level. Versatile Spellcaster only gives you spell SLOTS, not spells known.

Beguilers know their whole list so that is covered.


...huh. That's an interesting way to look at it. So by that interpretation, Versatile Spellcaster would actually allow a 1st level Beguiler to cast a 2nd level spell by spending two 1st level slots, because he knows his second level spell list. Is that right?

Yep!


Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing the synergy of Beguiler/Shadowcrafter/Shadowcraft Mage.

Beguiler is really good at Skills, utility, illusions, and enchantments.

Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft Mage are mostly about Shadow Evocation and Conjuration. While on the surface these belong in the illusion school, they're basically just versatile mid-level blasting and summoning.

What's wrong with that? Beguilers are skillmonkeys with some illusion-based tricks. Adding facility with shadow magic to their repertoire allows them a thematic way to deal with enemies that might be otherwise effective against regular illusions. Even someone who disbelieves a shadow fireball will take some damage after all. It's not as effective as T1, sure, but not every build has to be.

[Nightraiderx]

Residual metamagic feat would like to say hi.
It built correctly, a beguiler can make realer than real illusions,
there are a few feats it needs to do that but I can't think of them fully.
It adds some more versatility and thematically fun. Who doesn't like making
creating nightmare creatures from illusion to reality?

[Rebel7284]

Beguilers know their whole list so that is covered.

As was covered already, they do NOT know their whole list, at least not off the bat. They gain access to the whole spell list as they level.


Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing the synergy of Beguiler/Shadowcrafter/Shadowcraft Mage.

Beguiler is really good at Skills, utility, illusions, and enchantments.

Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft Mage are mostly about Shadow Evocation and Conjuration. While on the surface these belong in the illusion school, they're basically just versatile mid-level blasting and summoning.


Well the usual tactic with Shadowcraft Mage is to use Heighten Spell to get Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation at whatever level they want, so you can have low-level, mid-level, and high level Conjuration[Summoning], Conjuration[Creation], and Evocation spells. If using earth spell, this also gives a HUGE caster level boost to higher level spells.

However, you should take a closer look at Conjuration[Creation] spells.
There are SO many good ones that can do so much more than just blasting and summoning!

So many buffs, battlefield control, utility, debuffs, save or sucks, etc. All accessible spontaneously.

[Psyren]

As was covered already, they do NOT know their whole list, at least not off the bat. They gain access to the whole spell list as they level.

Right, and the exact text is "when you gain access to a new level of spells." It does not say "when you gain access to a new level of spells from leveling." Versatile Spellcaster gives you the access needed, and you learn the spells of that level automatically.

[DarkSonic1337]

So many buffs, battlefield control, utility, debuffs, save or sucks, etc. All accessible spontaneously.

I've always wanted to make a maze out of shadow stone walls, stone walls, invisible stone walls, and invisible shadow stone walls.

[Ethelesin]

So basically i can grab Versatile Spellcaster OR go with Earth Sense, Earth Spell and Heighten and both will do the trick?

[Keld Denar]

You want to go with Earth Spell. It's a greater investment, but its the lynchpin of the whole trick. Without it, most of the good ScM tricks are a lot more limited. The whole joy of ScM is heightening Silent Image to higher levels for the massive CL spike and the total versatility that that is built into the mechanic.

I still don't like doing ScM on a Beguiler chassis, however, since when a spontaneous caster applies metamagic, it changes the casting time to a full round action. The very definition of ScM shananigans IS Heightening Silent Image with Earth Spell. So every time you use your trick, you forfeit your move action which might be very important for Line of Sight or spells originating from the caster like cones or line effects. A good DM will utilize terrain and monsters in creative ways to keep you mobile which will cut down on your ability to be as effective. I think that the cost vs benefit of the additional versatility is not worth it.

[DarkSonic1337]

I still don't like doing ScM on a Beguiler chassis, however, since when a spontaneous caster applies metamagic, it changes the casting time to a full round action. The very definition of ScM shananigans IS Heightening Silent Image with Earth Spell. So every time you use your trick, you forfeit your move action which might be very important for Line of Sight or spells originating from the caster like cones or line effects. A good DM will utilize terrain and monsters in creative ways to keep you mobile which will cut down on your ability to be as effective. I think that the cost vs benefit of the additional versatility is not worth it.

There's a feat for that.

Admittedly level 9 is kinda late to start really using your cool trick and Shadow Craft Mages are often strapped for feats.

[Dalebert]

...huh. That's an interesting way to look at it. So by that interpretation, Versatile Spellcaster would actually allow a 1st level Beguiler to cast a 2nd level spell by spending two 1st level slots, because he knows his second level spell list.

Crap. My beguiler has been able to cast 2nd level spells for a while now and I didn't know it!