What spells does the Crimson Mantle worn by Redcloak grant? (SoD spoilers)

[hamishspence]

Inspired by this comment:


In the case of the Cloak, we have Start of Darkness, where we 1st see Redcloak, when he is being honored and later being treated as a low level, quite possibly 1st level. He is perhaps a college grad, who likely can only cast 1st level spells. Yet after he puts on the Cloak, he casually casts high level spells. There presumably is a limit on how many spells the Cloak bestows, but the presumption has to be that Raise Dead is an available spell.

I figured the subject might be suitable for a thread of its own.

[CaDzilla]

It might just give him extra domains since he can use three domains (Artifice-Hardening, Destruction-Smite ability, and Law-Hold monster). He might have gained the destruction domain after he donned the cloak.

[David Argall]

The answer, unfortunately for those of us wanting anything like certainty, is that it bestows whatever spells are plot useful.

[Nilehus]

After Redcloak dons it, he doesn't cast any spell on screen (besides Smite) until years later. Long enough for his brother to age from a child until a man.

Extra domain seems very likely, since he's used three on screen. 7 years, though, is definitely long enough for him to go from 1st level (or whatever he was) to level 10, 11, etc. Especially when you take into consideration the kind of life that he likely had, being the bearer of the Mantle.

After all, the Order went from level ~8 to level ~14 in a couple of years. :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

After Redcloak dons it, he doesn't cast any spell on screen (besides Smite) until years later. Long enough for his brother to age from a child until a man.

He casts some sort of ranged damage spell at a paladin's horse. But aside from that, you're right. And Smite isn't a spell, anyways, but a Domian Feature.

[Nilehus]

Ah, forgot about that one. Good catch.

If he had fired off a disintegrate or a Flame Strike or something, I'd believe it. One generic spell and a domain feature, however, does not make compelling evidence.

[KillianHawkeye]

Crimson Mantle is an artifact. It can do whatever the story needs it to do.

[zimmerwald1915]

He casts some sort of ranged damage spell at a paladin's horse. But aside from that, you're right. And Smite isn't a spell, anyways, but a Domian Feature.
AFB at the moment, so I can't look at the visual effect, but sound burst, spiritual weapon, and searing light are the only damage spells below 3rd level I could find in core. From what I remember of that scene, of those three, searing light seems most likely, since it would not look like a weapon and would target only the horse rather than an area.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I agree that the Mantle seems to grant an extra domain, but not new spells. Of course, the real answer is probably that the Mantle gives out spells as the plot demands them.

[zimmerwald1915]

I agree that the Mantle seems to grant an extra domain, but not new spells. Of course, the real answer is probably that the Mantle gives out spells as the plot demands them.
The same could, however, be said of regular old spell slots. It's not like the Giant fills up each spellcaster's list at the beginning of the in-comic day.

[Nilehus]

Yep! As long as it doesn't grant Miracle at will or some such, I won't complain.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The same could, however, be said of regular old spell slots. It's not like the Giant fills up each spellcaster's list at the beginning of the in-comic day.
True. However, I think the Mantle could also serve as an excuse for its bearer to cast spells beyond what the usually can cast.

[zimmerwald1915]

True. However, I think the Mantle could also serve as an excuse for its bearer to cast spells beyond what the usually can cast.
Well at this point, when Redcloak naturally has access to every spell on the Cleric list, he only needs the Mantle for access to spells granted by domains. So saying "the Mantle grants spells" and "the Mantle grants domains" amount to the same thing.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well at this point, when Redcloak naturally has access to every spell on the Cleric list, he only needs the Mantle for access to spells granted by domains. So saying "the Mantle grants spells" and "the Mantle grants domains" amount to the same thing.
Alright, for Redcloak they are the same. But for a lower-leveled cleric, adding higher level spells would actually do something. Or it could be that the Mantle lets clerics cast more spells per day. Of course, there is no in-comic evidence of that, but I like to think that the Mantle offers more advantages than an extra domain, certain knowledge about the gates, and an extended lifespan.

I guess that, as far as the plot is concerned, that is indeed irrelevant, as Redcloak is the one with the Mantle currently. So, I concede your point.

[Peelee]

If he had fired off a disintegrate or a Flame Strike or something, I'd believe it. One generic spell and a domain feature, however, does not make compelling evidence.

Seconded. There is nowhere near enough evidence to believe it grants extra spells

[Soylent Dave]

Thirded (or however many we're up to now).

It certainly seems highly unlikely that the Mantle grants the bearer any moderate-high level spells (like Raise Dead), otherwise Redcloak would have simply raised the previous bearer when he inherited it.

(the previous bearer clearly having been a much more powerful cleric than RC then was)

The fact that he runs away rather than 'unleashing magical death' certainly seems to indicate that it doesn't immediately fill him with magical badassitude.

An extra domain seems very likely. And coupled with
immunity to disease, resistance / immunity to ageing, instant knowledge of how to control the Snarl's prison

we're already talking about a fairly powerful artefact.

[Vladier]

All that remains is to see if Redcloak can cast domain spells or abilities from domains other than Destruction, Law and Artifice. Then we may surmise that the Crimson Mantle actually grants the Bearer every domain the Dark One has.

[ChristianSt]

It certainly seems highly unlikely that the Mantle grants the bearer any moderate-high level spells (like Raise Dead), otherwise Redcloak would have simply raised the previous bearer when he inherited it.

I don't know how such artifacts normally works (or if there even is enough similar artifacts that are commonly described), but wouldn't it be possible that he needs some time to figure out what for spells the Mantle offer to him?
I know Redcloak gets dumped information. But it isn't clear if its all the Mantle has to offer in one sweep or only the "Hey, I'm the Crimson Mantle and you are officially the High Priest of the Dark One"-Intro video.


In all cases - even if he gains access to new high level spells, wouldn't he need to prepare them first? (Or does the Mantle grant a free spell-refreshment while donning it?)

[ti'esar]

Where is the idea that Redcloak has more than two domains coming from anyway?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Where is the idea that Redcloak has more than two domains coming from anyway?
I believe he has casted spells from three different domains.

[SavageWombat]

Why Artifice?

[Vladier]

Why Artifice?

Hardening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html), which is Artifice 7. That is, unless The Giant forgot that it's a Domain spell for clerics.

[Anarion]

While the Mantle is a prime candidate for powers as the plot demands, I would suggest that raise dead and resurrection are among the least likely choices out of the entire spell lists of all classes. The Giant is on record expressing his distaste for those spells because of how much they cheapen death, and I just find it incredibly unlikely that he would consciously choose to add them in anywhere they weren't already required to be by the rules.

[Morty]

I've always operated under the assumption that it simply slaps a bunch of extra cleric levels on the bearer. Redcloak still seems to gain levels, after all.

[Anarion]

I've always operated under the assumption that it simply slaps a bunch of extra cleric levels on the bearer. Redcloak still seems to gain levels, after all.

Huh? :smallconfused:
The fact that Redcloak still gains levels doesn't provide any evidence one way or another as to what the Mantle does. It certainly doesn't say anything about whether the Mantle itself comes with free experience or some kind of custom artificial level boost. So, I'm not sure where your conclusion about it granting levels is coming from.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Both spells required for the ritual to give control of a rift to The Dark One.

Anyway, the spells Redcloak's cast recently (from the slaughter of the Azure City Resistance) and their domains are:

Implosion Destruction
Teleport Travel
Summon Monster Chaos, Cleric, Evil, Good, Law
Disintegrate Destruction
Dispel Magic to counterspell Tsukiko's shout Cleric
Greater Obscure Object Cleric
Hardening Artifice
Superior Resistance Cleric
Unknown "Greater..." protective spell ?
Gate Cleric

So yes, Rescloak's got access to at least three domains. Considering what Tsukiko said about the arcane half of the ritual spell being Conjuration, and assuming the Divine half's also a Conjuration spell, maybe the Crimson Mantle grants the Artifice domain (+1 level to Conjuration)?

[Porthos]

Both spells required for the ritual to give control of a rift to The Dark One.

Anyway, the spells Redcloak's cast recently (from the slaughter of the Azure City Resistance) and their domains are:

Implosion Destruction
Teleport Travel
Summon Monster Chaos, Cleric, Evil, Good, Law
Disintegrate Destruction
Dispel Magic to counterspell Tsukiko's shout Cleric
Greater Obscure Object Cleric
Hardening Artifice
Superior Resistance Cleric
Unknown "Greater..." protective spell ?
Gate Cleric

So yes, Rescloak's got access to at least three domains. Considering what Tsukiko said about the arcane half of the ritual spell being Conjuration, and assuming the Divine half's also a Conjuration spell, maybe the Crimson Mantle grants the Artifice domain (+1 level to Conjuration)?
When does he cast Teleport? :smallconfused:

[Anarion]

When does he cast Teleport? :smallconfused:

Maybe he means word of recall? Also I think implosion was a regular 9th level spell slot, not a domain spell.

[Sir_Leorik]

Both spells required for the ritual to give control of a rift to The Dark One.

Anyway, the spells Redcloak's cast recently (from the slaughter of the Azure City Resistance) and their domains are:

Implosion Destruction
Teleport Travel
Summon Monster Chaos, Cleric, Evil, Good, Law
Disintegrate Destruction
Dispel Magic to counterspell Tsukiko's shout Cleric
Greater Obscure Object Cleric
Hardening Artifice
Superior Resistance Cleric
Unknown "Greater..." protective spell ?
Gate Cleric

So yes, Rescloak's got access to at least three domains. Considering what Tsukiko said about the arcane half of the ritual spell being Conjuration, and assuming the Divine half's also a Conjuration spell, maybe the Crimson Mantle grants the Artifice domain (+1 level to Conjuration)?

Implosion is also a 9th level Cleric spell. And Xykon cast Teleport, not Redcloak. Redcloak cast Word of Recall.

EDIT: Ninjaed!

EDIT #2: Isn't there a feat that allows a Cleric to take an Extra Domain?

[CaDzilla]

Implosion is also a 9th level Cleric spell. And Xykon cast Teleport, not Redcloak. Redcloak cast Word of Recall.

EDIT: Ninjaed!

EDIT #2: Isn't there a feat that allows a Cleric to take an Extra Domain?

Yes, but it's an epic feat.

[Morty]

Huh? :smallconfused:
The fact that Redcloak still gains levels doesn't provide any evidence one way or another as to what the Mantle does. It certainly doesn't say anything about whether the Mantle itself comes with free experience or some kind of custom artificial level boost. So, I'm not sure where your conclusion about it granting levels is coming from.

It's not a conclusion, it's an assumption. There's no real evidence one way or the other, so I assume that it simply makes him a much higher level cleric than he normally would be.

[Aolbain]

My guess? The wearer gets all of the Dark Ones domains.

[zimmerwald1915]

so I assume that it simply makes him a much higher level cleric than he normally would be.
Why? What purpose does the assumption serve? It's not needed to explain Redcloak's current power. He has been adventuring for about a century, that's ample time to gain all his levels naturally. It's not needed to enable Redcloak's eventual defeat.

Redcloak doesn't need to be separated from the Mantle for the MitD to eat him.

The assumption doesn't make much sense from a character standpoint either. Why would the Dark One, seeking to empower his High Priest, make an artifact that gives him or her some number of additional cleric levels, and not just make an artifact that gives him or her twenty cleric levels? Surely the Dark One, working under the assumption that the High Priest would remain loyal, would want as powerful a High Priest as possible.

What's more, at one point Right Eye suggests giving up the Mantle to hide from Xykon. If the Mantle granted extra Cleric levels, surely Redcloak would have mentioned this in counterpoint. He did not.

I could see the Mantle having a power that treats Redcloak's caster level as 20 for purposes of domain granted powers like Smite and/or spells. But actually granting levels? That seems like a bridge too far for me.

[Porthos]

Why? What purpose does the assumption serve? It's not needed to explain Redcloak's current power. He has been adventuring for about a century, that's ample time to gain all his levels naturally.

Approximately 36 years, actually. It's Xykon who has been adventuring for about a century. But I agree with the larger point you are making.

[SavageWombat]

Why? What purpose does the assumption serve? It's not needed to explain Redcloak's current power. He has been adventuring for about a century, that's ample time to gain all his levels naturally. It's not needed to enable Redcloak's eventual defeat.

I suppose they want to know whether transferring the Cloak to another goblin would accomplish anything. I'm betting not.

[DaveMcW]

There is no reason Redcloak needs a new domain or artifact powers to explain having a spell he wouldn't normally get.

The rules for divine spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells) mention that clerics can research a new spell like a wizard can.
The rules for arcane spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook) mention that wizards can research any spell given enough time, money, and DM permission.
The Dungeon Master Guide (page 198) gives guidelines for exactly how much time and money it should take.

Vaarsuvius and Durkon are both shown using these rules to research new spells.

[Vladier]

There is no reason Redcloak needs a new domain or artifact powers to explain having a spell he wouldn't normally get.

The rules for divine spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells) mention that clerics can research a new spell like a wizard can.
The rules for arcane spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) mention that wizards can research any spell given enough time, money, and DM permission.
The Dungeon Master Guide (page 198) gives guidelines for exactly how much time and money it should take.

Vaarsuvious and Durkon are both shown using these rules to add new spells to their spellbook.

The thing is, Hardening, Disintegration and Hold Monster already exist as spells belonging to particular Domains and, like Specialist Wizards and their restricted schools, the Clerics can't cast that spell if they don't have the necessary Domain (or, in some particular cases, can't cast that spell at a lower level). Also, Durkon only had to research Mass Death Ward because Rich wasn't aware that it already exists, otherwise he would've had access to this non-Domain spell.

As a bit of trivia, it's actually a reason why Archivist class is considered very powerful - they aren't restricted by Domains and can, in theory, learn any single Divine spell and that includes Domain and Druid spells, with the former often granting access to some spells from Arcane spell list, thus mitigating normally poor selection of offensive spells Priests and Druids usually have.

[DaveMcW]

"A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."


like Specialist Wizards and their restricted schools, the Clerics can't cast that spell if they don't have the necessary DomainClerics do not have "barred domains". Half of the cleric prestige classes grant new domains that work fine once you learn them.

A cleric's deity may have restrictions on what domains they will give, but I don't think a deity that creates a major artifact for his high priest will have a restriction on the Artifice domain.

[Amphiox]

Perhaps the Crimson Mantle grants spells to its bearer in the same manner the Sacred Water in Dragonball granted strength, or the Mirror of Lunet in Taran Wanderer granted self-knowledge?

[SavageWombat]

Perhaps the Crimson Mantle grants spells to its bearer in the same manner the Sacred Water in Dragonball granted strength, or the Mirror of Lunet in Taran Wanderer granted self-knowledge?

Forget the ring! The ring was bupkis! I found it in a Crackerjack box!

[Vladier]

"A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."

Clerics do not have "barred domains". Half of the cleric prestige classes grant new domains that work fine once you learn them.

A cleric's deity may have restrictions on what domains they will give, but I don't think a deity that creates a major artifact for his high priest will have a restriction on the Artifice domain.

I didn't say anything about "barred domains". And I don't really think that Redcloak has prestige class, unless him being "The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" is more than just a title.

And "duplicating the existing one" doesn't mean that the Wizard in question can cast it if it belongs to his barred school. Same with Domains - if a cleric, through research, duplicates existing Domain spell, it will still be Domain spell. That's in the definition of duplication. Not to mention that without the Domain he probably shouldn't even be allowed to research it by any sensible DM.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think it's more likely that the Giant didn't know about an obscure domain like Artifice and instead just had Redcloak use "Redcloak's Amazing Homebrewed Hardening Spell," just like he did for Durkon and Mass Death Ward.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think it's more likely that the Giant didn't know about an obscure domain like Artifice and instead just had Redcloak use "Redcloak's Amazing Homebrewed Hardening Spell," just like he did for Durkon and Mass Death Ward.
:xykon: Don't confuse not knowing with not caring.

The Giant has stated repeatedly that he doesn't give much thought to how his characters get their powers, or how they work, beyond the broad strokes. But the Artifice domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm) is hardly as obscure as you say, and while he may not care to draw on it that often or that deeply, the Giant's D&D knowledge is vast. It tends not to go well when fans presume they know more than he does.

[137beth]

Don't forget that the Giant is actually a published 3.5 developer, so he is pretty familiar with the rules. He just doesn't care.

Anyways, my guess is that it gives one or more of TDO's domains. Possibly all of them.

[Anarion]

I think it's also worth looking at the power of various ingame effects when we're thinking about the Crimson Mantle. It's an artifact, so it can do anything in theory. However, something like an extra domain is relatively minor and represents a few spells that we can deduce from seeing onscreen such as the use of hardening.

Character levels, either permanent or artificial, on the other hand, are a major point. The comic has a history, starting from the "up a level, down a level" thing of calling out character levels in-universe. And even though Rich stopped pointing out every time someone levels up, things like gaining spells levels (Redcloak's implosion) and the fact that Vaarsuvius is a high level wizard (as commented by Qarr) all show the continued relevance of level as a major power metric in this comic. So, if the Crimson Mantle had been granting levels all this time, I think it would have been called out somewhere, at least in SoD. But that is not the case.