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boxfox
2014-03-12, 03:52 PM
Hello GitP.
I've written up a template. I need honest feedback. I know that this is pretty powerful, but it has some huge drawbacks, and I'm here to get opinions on whether or not they balance out.
Let's begin.

GAUNT REMNANT
When an ethergaunt (Fiend Folio, page 64) uses its enslave power for extended periods of time on a creature, there are consequences for the slave. These poor creatures wake as if from a deep sleep to find that time has forgotten them. Victims who suffer domination for a few days or weeks are rarely affected much, but occasionally a Red ethergaunt will want to use a slave to explore the material plane more fully, and will hold the creature for months or even years. In these cases, the eventual departure of the ethergaunt leaves the brain-host forever altered.
Personality: These gaunt remnants are, for all intents and purposes, the same people they were before their fateful encounter, but they are noticeably different. Having such a brilliant entity inside their heads for so long has developed their minds further, allowing them to better serve their masters. They are vastly more intelligent, but their thoughts and words tend to be more alien in nature, having been subjected to the intense thoughts of their captors for so long. They tend to mimic ethergaunts in one or more ways, becoming more philosophical, increasingly rational, or less emotional. Alternatively, stronger-willed remnants might never give up fighting the influence of their captors. They may use their increased intelligence and strategic ability to rally against their masters, seeking out things that ethergaunts typically spurn, such as art, pleasure, or divinity.
Physical Description: Ethergaunts detest the food found on the material plane, and are often loath to “waste time” by waiting for their slaves to eat or sleep. For the remnants that are held for years, this results in a vastly weaker physical body, as their muscles are generally unused and malnourished. Their body slowly morphs to resemble their captors, becoming thin and wiry. To those who knew them before their capture and others of their own race, it’s obvious that they are not as healthy as they should be, though they appear to be more nimble.
Relations: For the most part, these gaunt remnants are treated as any other member of their race. Once they start speaking, people may think they’re odd or even rude, but it really depends on what comes out of their mouths. Those who notice how thin the slave is may be cautious of catching a sickness, but no more than they would be near any other frail looking person.
Also, it is possible that the ethergaunt who captured the slave made them do or say things to alienate themselves from their friends or family. If this is the case, the remnants often go out of their way to avoid returning to the place that they came from.
Alignment: Gaunt remnants, even those who rebel, tend to share the neutral nature of their ethergaunt captors. They tend toward both good and evil in equal proportion, depending on whether they tried to fight off the domination.
Gaunt Remnant Lands: They have no lands of their own, specifically, as they are incredibly rare, though they are welcome anywhere their race is usually welcome.
Religion: Gaunt remnants who find themselves released from their mental bonds tend to either detest religion, or become increasingly drawn to it. They may worship any deity, as a typical member of their race.
Language: Gaunt remnants speak the typical languages of their race.
Names: Though nameless in captivity, once released, most remnants resort to their old name. Occasionally a slave feels so changed or was forced to do things bad enough that they take up a new name and a new life and try to start over again.
Adventurers: Gaunt remnants generally come back to their minds after living with another being in their head for so long that not having it there makes them feel as though they are missing something. Often they begin adventuring to satiate their new hunger for knowledge, to fill the void in their minds, or even to find a way to rejoin or destroy their old masters.

CREATING AN GAUNT REMNANT CREATURE
“Gaunt remnant” is an acquired template that can be added to any living corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A gaunt remnant has all the base creature’s characteristics except as noted here.
Size and Type: Animals that have this template become magical beasts due to their high intelligence, but otherwise type is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Same as the base creature.
AC: Same as the base creature.
Attacks: Same as the base creature.
Special Qualities:
Dominated- Gaunt remnants have been remnants for so long that their minds have trouble keeping out other creatures. They receive a -2 to all saving throws against spells and abilities with the [mind-affecting] subtype. Gaunt remnants lose any racial bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Their natural resistance to the domination of their masters annoys ethergaunts, who go out of their way to destroy it.
Malnourished- Gaunt remnants are used to constantly being forced to continue on when they are tired and under-fed. Gaunt remnants cannot eat more than half-portions of food, leaving them constantly malnourished. They always have -1 to weapon attack and damage rolls, and suffer a -1 penalty on all skill and ability checks. (This is a modified version of the sickened condition. If a character gains the sickened condition later, the effects stack.) If the character has to make a Constitution check to avoid becoming fatigued due to starvation (from eating even less than what is stated above), he suffers a -4 penalty to his roll. This is in addition to the -1 penalty to all ability checks. However, because they have gone so long in such a state, they only need to sleep half as long as normal members of their race to be fully rested.
Alien thoughts-Gaunt remnants get a further -1 penalty to diplomacy checks made when dealing with other members of the base creature's race.
Abilities: -4 Strength, -2 Constitution, +6 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom: Gaunt remnants have expanded mental faculties, but their bodies have become weaker. They also tend to think differently than most humanoids and have a hard time relating to folk of other races.
Skills: Same as base creature.
Climate/Terrain: Same as the base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature (if caster-based) or -1 (if physical combat-based). Though they are smarter than other members of their race, they are physically weaker and have a hard time avoiding performing some tasks.
Level Adjustment: +0

GAUNT REMNANT CHARACTERS
A gaunt remnant character’s preferred class is wizard. With their increased mental faculties, they excel in the arcane arts.

And that's it. Thanks for reading if you got this far. :smallwink: Now, get brutal....

EDITTED TO SHOW FEEDBACK CHANGES.

Zweisteine
2014-03-12, 05:47 PM
First of all, this is the wrong subforum; this belongs in Homebrew.

Second, my thoughts.
This looks like an interesting template, with not-unreasonable drawbacks, but it is incredibly powerful in the hands of a wizard. Getting penalties to two dump stats and a semi-dump stat in exchange for +6 intelligence is too good to pass on. The penalties of malnutrition are easy to avoid, as is the vulnerability to enchantments.

You might want to change this sentence:
"Elven remnants lose their racial +2 bonus against enchantment spells or effects."
More encompassing/balanced might be "gaunt remnants lose any racial bonuses they had against enchantments or mind-affecting spells and abilities."

Immabozo
2014-03-12, 05:57 PM
First of all, this is the wrong subforum; this belongs in Homebrew.

Second, my thoughts.
This looks like an interesting template, with not-unreasonable drawbacks, but it is incredibly powerful in the hands of a wizard. Getting penalties to two dump stats and a semi-dump stat in exchange for +6 intelligence is too good to pass on. The penalties of malnutrition are easy to avoid, as is the vulnerability to enchantments.

You might want to change this sentence:
"Elven remnants lose their racial +2 bonus against enchantment spells or effects."
More encompassing/balanced might be "gaunt remnants lose any racial bonuses they had against enchantments or mind-affecting spells and abilities."

I'll echo, this belongs in the homebrew forum.

Personally, I think it is a well balanced template, but as a melee player, I personally wouldn't use it

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 05:59 PM
I would say balanced, but there is one thing that kills it.

Why wouldn't you take it? There is no reason for a Wizard or a Factotum to not take this template. +6 Int for no LA.

Zweisteine
2014-03-12, 06:08 PM
I'd recommend eliminating the dexterity bonus, adding a constitution penalty, and maybe lessening the intelligence bonus.

And maybe replace the charisma penalty with a (-2) penalty to charisma-based skill checks, perhaps only against some monster types. If it's effecting their personality, and that makes them seem strange to others, it won't necessarily hurt them when they talk to an aberration or a demon, or an animal, for that matter. It also doesn't seem like it should hurt a sorcerer's spellcasting.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 06:36 PM
And maybe replace the charisma penalty with a (-2) penalty to charisma-based skill checks, perhaps only against some monster types. If it's effecting their personality, and that makes them seem strange to others, it won't necessarily hurt them when they talk to an aberration or a demon, or an animal, for that matter. It also doesn't seem like it should hurt a sorcerer's spellcasting.

Seconded. Of course, I feel this way about every racial Cha penalty.

Also, the Int bonus is definitely too high. I don't think there's a 0 LA method (outside of some Dragon shenanigans like Unseelie Fey) to even get a +4 to a stat.

boxfox
2014-03-12, 06:37 PM
All very good advice.
Sorry about the wrong forum :smalleek:


You might want to change this sentence:
"Elven remnants lose their racial +2 bonus against enchantment spells or effects."
More encompassing/balanced might be "gaunt remnants lose any racial bonuses they had against enchantments or mind-affecting spells and abilities."
Excellent. Will edit original post.


Personally, I think it is a well balanced template, but as a melee player, I personally wouldn't use it
Thanks! It was never intended for melee, so that's good!


Why wouldn't you take it? There is no reason for a Wizard or a Factotum to not take this template. +6 Int for no LA.
The no LA is important to keep. That said, I was hoping the penalties involved would prevent this thought from coming up. :smallfrown: It is (of course) intended for an intelligence-based character. Any suggestions that would make you (at least) hesitate taking this template as a wizard would be wonderful!


I'd recommend eliminating the dexterity bonus, adding a constitution penalty, and maybe lessening the intelligence bonus.

And maybe replace the charisma penalty with a (-2) penalty to charisma-based skill checks, perhaps only against some monster types. If it's effecting their personality, and that makes them seem strange to others, it won't necessarily hurt them when they talk to an aberration or a demon, or an animal, for that matter. It also doesn't seem like it should hurt a sorcerer's spellcasting.
The charisma skill check thing is great. I'll edit that in. I really don't want to lower the intelligence bonus (what wizard would?! :smallwink:) but I realize that I spent the whole building process also avoiding giving a Constitution penalty. This Remnant would probably be more sickly after his captivity, because the ethergaunt wouldn't let him spend much time taking care of himself...I'll trade the Dex bonus for a Con penalty.


Also, the Int bonus is definitely too high. I don't think there's a 0 LA method (outside of some Dragon shenanigans like Unseelie Fey) to even get a +4 to a stat.
Anthropomorphic bat, page 216 of Savage Species, gives a +6 Wisdom bonus for no level adjustment (or racial hit dice). That race (given via template) has the same penalty to strength as this one and a -2 charisma penalty. This template gives +6 in stat bonuses and -8 in penalties...6 of which are physical penalties (which I bring up because all base races are built around the "2 physical stat = 4 mental stat" rule.).
This is all wonderful advice! Thank you and please weigh in on the changes that I've made!

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 06:49 PM
Weakness to mind affecting can be easily bypassed/reduced and the malnourished penalties are tiny. Even with those stat changes, it would seem that a Gaunt Remnant Fire Elf (blah blah wizard blah blah) would be outrageously strong. The thing to remember is that the best way of countering drawbacks is magic and this template heavily favors magic using/UMD using classes.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 06:50 PM
You actually just made the point of the problem. You're actively trying to make a template that no sane Wizard wouldn't take. Therefore it will be broken and OP. If it wasn't for Wizards, I wouldn't mind, but Wizards do not need anything to make them stronger.

boxfox
2014-03-12, 06:59 PM
Weakness to mind affecting can be easily bypassed/reduced and the malnourished penalties are tiny. Even with those stat changes, it would seem that a Gaunt Remnant Fire Elf (blah blah wizard blah blah) would be outrageously strong. The thing to remember is that the best way of countering drawbacks is magic and this template heavily favors magic using/UMD using classes.
A Fire elf would end up with -4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con, +8 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
A total of -12 and +10. -4 Con HURTS, as it's the 2nd most important stat after Int and also hurts (the already penalized) Concentration. I would certainly never do this as a wizard...would you?

Gray elf (also common) would get -6 Str +2 Dex -4 Con +8 Int, -2 Wis.
Also not worth it, in my opinion.


You actually just made the point of the problem. You're actively trying to make a template that no sane Wizard wouldn't take. Therefore it will be broken and OP. If it wasn't for Wizards, I wouldn't mind, but Wizards do not need anything to make them stronger.
Hopefully the changes that I've just made will help your opinion...if not, what would (short of reducing Int!)?

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 07:02 PM
A Fire elf would end up with -4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con, +8 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
A total of -12 and +10. -4 Con HURTS, as it's the 2nd most important stat after Int and also hurts (the already penalized) Concentration. I would certainly never do this as a wizard...would you?

Gray elf (also common) would get -6 Str +2 Dex -4 Con +8 Int, -2 Wis.
Also not worth it, in my opinion.

Of course I would. Wizard has spells that fix those terrible physical stats easily, especially starting at mid levels.

Try upping the Wis penalty at least.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 07:03 PM
A Fire elf would end up with -4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con, +8 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
A total of -12 and +10. -4 Con HURTS, as it's the 2nd most important stat after Int and also hurts (the already penalized) Concentration. I would certainly never do this as a wizard...would you?

Gray elf (also common) would get -6 Str +2 Dex -4 Con +8 Int, -2 Wis.
Also not worth it, in my opinion.


Hopefully the changes that I've just made will help your opinion...if not, what would (short of reducing Int!)?

The problem with that is the existence of Necropolitan making Con irrelevant.

I'd forgotten anthros, but to be fair, that's another classic case of way too good for LA 0.

boxfox
2014-03-12, 07:22 PM
The problem with that is the existence of Necropolitan making Con irrelevant.

I'd forgotten anthros, but to be fair, that's another classic case of way too good for LA 0.

I just read Necropolitan. I'd never heard of it before. I can certainly see your point of view, though I'll point out that by losing an entire level, you end up with the same stats and it's almost identical to getting a +1 LA anyway. Penalties to playing undead in a campaign can absolutely outweigh the benefits, depending on the DM and setting... Who wants to cast alter self (or whatever) every time they have to walk into a town? Clerics healing the party might accidently kill you, etc, etc....
Constitution is certainly not irrelevant. If it were, every character would be Necropolitan...


Of course I would. Wizard has spells that fix those terrible physical stats easily, especially starting at mid levels.

Try upping the Wis penalty at least.
I don't know. It's already got far more negative stats than positive. How abusive is a +6 Int, anyway? it's a slightly higher dc to spells and maybe a few bonus spells...and some extra skill points, I guess.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 07:27 PM
It is also a lot of flexibility in stats... And mental stats are waaay harder to get than physical stats, especially for a caster. By level 7 your template has no practical downsides.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 07:37 PM
I just read Necropolitan. I'd never heard of it before. I can certainly see your point of view, though I'll point out that by losing an entire level, you end up with the same stats and it's almost identical to getting a +1 LA anyway. Penalties to playing undead in a campaign can absolutely outweigh the benefits, depending on the DM and setting... Who wants to cast alter self (or whatever) every time they have to walk into a town? Clerics healing the party might accidently kill you, etc, etc....
Constitution is certainly not irrelevant. If it were, every character would be Necropolitan...


I don't know. It's already got far more negative stats than positive. How abusive is a +6 Int, anyway? it's a slightly higher dc to spells and maybe a few bonus spells...and some extra skill points, I guess.

The problem is that Necropolitans can pass as not-undead pretty easily. And +5 to save DCs is insanely strong early on. It puts a level 1 Gaunt Remnant Fire Elf at a 28 Int. That means first level spells with a save DC of 20. At level 1. When the best you saves are going to be is like +6. Maybe +7.

boxfox
2014-03-12, 07:52 PM
The problem is that Necropolitans can pass as not-undead pretty easily. And +5 to save DCs is insanely strong early on. It puts a level 1 Gaunt Remnant Fire Elf at a 28 Int. That means first level spells with a save DC of 20. At level 1. When the best you saves are going to be is like +6. Maybe +7.
28?! How? +2 (fire elf) +6 (gaunt) +18 (perfect roll).
Where is the extra +2 that I'm missing? (I must add it to my character! :P)
That is pretty high, though. You're right. What if I kept everything but changed the stats to: -2 Str, +4 Int?

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 07:57 PM
Sorry, thought I saw someone total a +10 earlier.

+4 Int, -2 to Str and Con, and keep the social penalties. I'm still skeptical, because 0LA templates usually don't have stat bonuses at all.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 08:18 PM
Sorry, thought I saw someone total a +10 earlier.

+4 Int, -2 to Str and Con, and keep the social penalties. I'm still skeptical, because 0LA templates usually don't have stat bonuses at all.

They will sometimes, but it tends to be the +2/-2 variety you see on base races.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 08:29 PM
Actually, checking here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1117261), there are 4 0 LA templates.

Amphibious Creature: Swim speed and can breathe underwater at the cost of -2 Dex.

Primordial Giant: I've looked it up before, it's an Eberron specific template that only applies to giants and trades out some of the massive physical stats for not crappy mental stats. But only available to Giants. So nothing to my knowledge without a LA (Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny, +2 LA)

Necropolitan: We've covered that this would almost certainly be taken, since Undead is really nice and it cancels out the Con penalty

Vampire Lord: Requires you to be a vampire, ie, +8 LA

So, actually, looking at other 0 LA templates, this is massively more powerful almost regardless what you do.

mucat
2014-03-12, 08:51 PM
A Fire elf would end up with -4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con, +8 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
A total of -12 and +10. -4 Con HURTS, as it's the 2nd most important stat after Int and also hurts (the already penalized) Concentration. I would certainly never do this as a wizard...would you?
I disagree; if I were building for power, I would take this without hesitation.

28 point buy, for example?

Str 10 -> 6
Dex 12 -> 14
Con 16 -> 12
Int 16 -> 24
Wis 10 -> 8
Cha 8 -> 6

This is perfectly workable set of physical stats, and a ludicrously overinflated Int. Even if you go all-out with Dex 12, Con 10, and Int 26, it's still survivale. (Especially if you start at mid-level and can take some enhancement bonuses to Con.)

This template's main disadvantages all relate to survivability...which does not improve balance at the table a bit. As long as this character remains alive, he will be even more effective than a regular Wizard at making other PCs irrelevant. Even if he does end up with a shorter lifespan -- which is far from certain -- his presence until then is likely to make the game less fun for everyone else.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 08:51 PM
Actually, checking here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1117261), there are 4 0 LA templates.

Amphibious Creature: Swim speed and can breathe underwater at the cost of -2 Dex.

Primordial Giant: I've looked it up before, it's an Eberron specific template that only applies to giants and trades out some of the massive physical stats for not crappy mental stats. But only available to Giants. So nothing to my knowledge without a LA (Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny, +2 LA)

Necropolitan: We've covered that this would almost certainly be taken, since Undead is really nice and it cancels out the Con penalty

Vampire Lord: Requires you to be a vampire, ie, +8 LA

So, actually, looking at other 0 LA templates, this is massively more powerful almost regardless what you do.


There are two giants with no LA, but they are from Dragon magazine. Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301651) The next lowest is half-giant from EPH.

Spark: Magic Blooded is a +0 template that gives +2 Cha, -2 Wis, amongst other goodies.

And of course there is the infamous Unseelie Fey.

Honestly, the only 0 templates that compare to this are Primordial giant (+1 minimum without Dragon content) and the well known to be broken Unseelie Fey.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 09:06 PM
And Unseelie Fey's LA 0 is an extrapolated part of the template. The actual template doesn't list a LA, but the example gnome has a LA of 0.

What is Magic-Blooded from?

Forgot half-giant somehow. How did I forget that but remember half ogre? don't ask me.

So basically, outside of Dragon Magazine (not even Dragon Compendium) content, there is nothing that even gives a stat bonus for less than +1 LA

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 09:07 PM
Magic Blooded is from the Dragon Magazine that had about 8 +0 templates.

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 09:14 PM
Honestly, Unseelie fey isn't even broken for the stats, it's more about the Ex flight for 0 LA (actual Winged template is +2 LA IIRC). The stats are just a nice bonus (-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha, in case anyone is wondering and unaware).

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-12, 09:16 PM
And it gets a sweet ability on top of that. Honestly any of three is good for +0, combined it is insane.

boxfox
2014-03-12, 09:47 PM
Well, you've all given me a lot to think about. I certainly don't want to make other PCs irrelevant. I'll either scrap the template or rework it from the ground up.
Thanks for all your feedback! It was exceptional (and I even learned about necropolitans :) ).

Vhaidara
2014-03-12, 09:54 PM
Honestly, at +4 Int, -2 Str, the social penalties, and the other more fluff-centric penalties, it makes for a solid +1 LA template. It's just that free stats are free and hard to excuse not exploiting.

Invader
2014-03-12, 10:01 PM
Anthropomorphic bat, page 216 of Savage Species, gives a +6 Wisdom sets us for no level adjustment (or racial hit dice). That race (given via template) has the same penalty to strength as this one and a -2 charisma penalty. This template gives +6 in stat bonuses and -8 in penalties...6 of which are physical penalties (which I bring up because all base races are built around the "2 physical stat = 4 mental stat" rule.).
This is all wonderful advice! Thank you and please weigh in on the changes that I've made!

To be fair anthromorphic bat is pretty horrendously broken so it's not a good basis for conparison.

I'll echo a few other people though. Your drawbacks are generally not drawbacks for the classes that are going to take the template so you work on the assumption that if it's to good to pass up then its probably not balanced enough. For no LA something like -2 str -2 Dex - 2 Con +4 Int would probably be more reasonable.