Dragon Combat Tactics 3.5

[Chester]

OK, Juvenile Blue Dragon, 3rd level sorcerer.

1. General combat tactics of a blue dragon sorcerer?
2. If the battle takes place near a cliff with a sheer drop, could the dragon use its tail slap or something like it to knock players off the cliff? If so, how would that work RAW?

[Diarmuid]

Bull Rush would be the way to knock people off the cliff. Unless there are specific mechanics for the wing buffet.

[docnessuno]

OK, Juvenile Blue Dragon, 3rd level sorcerer.

1. General combat tactics of a blue dragon sorcerer?
2. If the battle takes place near a cliff with a sheer drop, could the dragon use its tail slap or something like it to knock players off the cliff? If so, how would that work RAW?

Fly up, cast Armor
Fly up, cast Shield
Cast fist of Stone
Fly down and smack them HARD.

[OldTrees1]

1) Improved Flyby Attack (Line of Electricity) every 1d4+1 rounds
2a) Improved Flyby Attack (Bullrush) when going out towards the sheer drop
2b) Improved Flyby Attack (Grease) when going in from the sheer drop

[Cuaqchi]

What are you looking to get out of the combat? TPK where you have even the lowliest dragon spank the party or an interesting out-of-the-box combat to get them working together a team to succeed. If the former use doc's plan, if the latter use plentiful illusions and just bother the party - at some point they'll figure out whatever they are after is inaccessible and try to take a different tact.

[docnessuno]

What are you looking to get out of the combat? TPK where you have even the lowliest dragon spank the party or an interesting out-of-the-box combat to get them working together a team to succeed. If the former use doc's plan, if the latter use plentiful illusions and just bother the party - at some point they'll figure out whatever they are after is inaccessible and try to take a different tact.

So, a CL3 dragon who actually uses spells to buff up is an automatic TPK?

[Rakaydos]

So, a CL3 dragon who actually uses spells to buff up is an automatic TPK?

A flying enemy with a ranged attack (breath weapon) is TPK for a party that can only fire bows back.

[OldTrees1]

A flying enemy with a ranged attack (breath weapon) is TPK for a party that can only fire bows back.

They are facing a creature with over 8CR, I would hope they have flight and haste.

[MadGreenSon]

OK, Juvenile Blue Dragon, 3rd level sorcerer.

1. General combat tactics of a blue dragon sorcerer?
2. If the battle takes place near a cliff with a sheer drop, could the dragon use its tail slap or something like it to knock players off the cliff? If so, how would that work RAW?

I think the tail slap could knock them off if they're near it, I know there is a specific feat and a spell for dragons to create wind with their wings that could do it too.

If knocked off the cliff, it's falling damage.

Just to be sure, your players aren't the types that run into something like this and bribe/Diplomacy/flatter the dragon into being their new friend/mercenary/partner-in-crime right? It will actually be a fight? I've been burned by situations like this.
"If they have intelligence, pride, vanity, and greed, they can be cajoled or bought" says the bard...:smallyuk:

Either way, Juvenile Blues are Large, so they can push foes with Large and In Charge, Shock Wave can knock opponents down and Tail Sweep Knockdown would be on the table too (all feats from Draconomicon)

[Chester]

Well, the party will most likely be cajoled. Some (or one) in the party might attempt to piss the dragon off. I'm thinking the setting will dissuade him, and I want the party to be aware that I know how to use the dragon. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: The party can't cast fly or haste, but they have potions and items that can help in those regards.

[MadGreenSon]

Well, the party will most likely be cajoled. Some (or one) in the party might attempt to piss the dragon off. I'm thinking the setting will dissuade him, and I want the party to be aware that I know how to use the dragon. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: The party can't cast fly or haste, but they have potions and items that can help in those regards.

Cool. Remember if RP comes up Blues are notoriously vain and greedy from birth and can be bribed. They especially like camels to snack on and sapphires to keep.

They also consider blue the universe's most perfect color, so if anyone is using Incarnum that might win points too if they take the talking option.

My wife once RP'd a Blue Dragon frighteningly well over a year long campaign. I have some experience with this.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Chester, I suggest you have the dragon prep some web spells.

If (and when) someone gets knocked off the inevitable cliff, have them land in festoons of webbing set up all along the cliff face. (Dragons are smart, and usually think ahead)

Make it clear that they're in no danger of plummeting to their deaths, provided they're willing to cut a deal. (From the dragon's point of view. Don't actually make it inescapable, that's just railroading.)

If they're clever, there's climbing down after cutting themselves free, or climbing up, if they're feeling bold. (If they're stupid, like me, they'll taunt the dragon into coming close, then burn the webs and attack.)

The worst thing you could possibly do, is make the dragon personable, chatty, and even downright likeable. This is, I must warn you, a very evil thing to do. It is a terrible thing, to make the PCs start liking your villains.

I highly suggest you attempt this very evil thing in every campaign you run. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Cliché]

General dragon tactics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFnTRfR46Gc

[OldTrees1]

EDIT: The party can't cast fly or haste, but they have potions and items that can help in those regards.

That was what I expected.

[Chester]

I highly suggest you attempt this very evil thing in every campaign you run. :smallbiggrin:

Done and done.

It's a mostly neutral campaign, so there's no real push to work for the good guys all the time, but this party can be so easily manipulated.

The dragon will offer them a deal: an item they've been sent to claim from the dragon in exchange for completion of a mission.

If the party rejects the deal, they don't get to take the stairs back down. :smallamused:

EDIT: At this time, they have no idea that he's a dragon. They think they're going to see a powerful human sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

General dragon tactics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFnTRfR46Gc
Spoony is cool, but he isn't really that savvy when it comes to DnD (He prefers 3.5 over PF, claiming it is "fixed"). Dragons can only breath weapon every 1d4 rounds, which gives the party plenty of time to find cover/hide (dark stalker), and buff up while fighting it. ~36 damage can be a good chunk of damage, but it's effectively single target while flying. Being at 100 feet pretty much puts you with range of a ton of spells, abilities, and attacks, too.

Not to mention adventurers are always loaded up with all sorts of gear. Dragons love their money, and circle strafing is only a slow as a hell way of getting it, and every round spent doing that is one more round the juicy targets can figure out a way to kill it.

Bullrushing would normally put the dragon over the cliff, but that's fine if he can fly.

[Fouredged Sword]

Give it knock back if you want it to throw people around with it's tail and other attacks. It can bullrush after powerattacking, and it can be very powerful with fly-by attack, as the dragon can buzz the clif, knocking people off and hitting the area with electrical damage.

Also, I like to give my dragons the invisibility spell. It is really humerous and a great way to ensure they can flee. A 150ft fly speed and total concealment is a great getaway button. They can cast and get out of see invis range with one round.

[Chester]

~36 damage can be a good chunk of damage, but it's effectively single target while flying. Being at 100 feet pretty much puts you with range of a ton of spells, abilities, and attacks, too.



Give it knock back if you want it to throw people around with it's tail and other attacks. It can bullrush after powerattacking, and it can be very powerful with fly-by attack, as the dragon can buzz the clif, knocking people off and hitting the area with electrical damage.

Isn't there another feat, something like Breath Shaping, that allows the breath weapon to be cone-shaped, thus hitting more than one target?

[Slipperychicken]

Tactics:

Strafe + breath weapon, ideally while the PCs are climbing the cliff. Prioritize magic-users.
Don't engage in melee unless suicidal.
Burrow/fly away if badly injured.
If he catches the PCs on a cliff and they resist breath-weaponing, cast Grease on the segment they're climbing.


Isn't there another feat, something like Breath Shaping, that allows the breath weapon to be cone-shaped, thus hitting more than one target?

Shape Breath metabreath feat from Draconomicon does exactly that. It's also a prerequisite for Split Breath, which is awesome.


Spoony is cool, but he isn't really that savvy when it comes to DnD (He prefers 3.5 over PF, claiming it is "fixed"). Dragons can only breath weapon every 1d4 rounds, which gives the party plenty of time to find cover/hide (dark stalker), and buff up while fighting it. ~36 damage can be a good chunk of damage, but it's effectively single target while flying. Being at 100 feet pretty much puts you with range of a ton of spells, abilities, and attacks, too.

Not to mention adventurers are always loaded up with all sorts of gear. Dragons love their money, and circle strafing is only a slow as a hell way of getting it, and every round spent doing that is one more round the juicy targets can figure out a way to kill it.

Bullrushing would normally put the dragon over the cliff, but that's fine if he can fly.

This dragon has 14 Int, 15 Wis. That's exceptional intelligence, and this guy isn't in a rush. He has all day to circle-strafe the monkies. At the absolute worst, it might take 3 minutes (30 combat rounds) of his time to breath weapon the adventurers to death.

Also, you'd be amazed how many groups are unprepared to fight flying enemies, much less ones that won't close into melee, or who perform even the most rudimentary hit-and-run tactics. Even if someone casts Fly, that only gives a 60ft speed: he's never catching up to the dragon.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a third metabreath feat that lets them turn their breath into a burst, if I am remembering right, and it is GREAT because you can hit a group at very extended ranges.

[Chester]

Well, first of all, thank you so much for all the tips. This is quite helpful.

Second . . . can someone explain what the heck I'm missing with flyby attack? I don't quite see how it works.

[OldTrees1]

Well, first of all, thank you so much for all the tips. This is quite helpful.

Second . . . can someone explain what the heck I'm missing with flyby attack? I don't quite see how it works.

Take a standard action during a move action. (Say fly 60ft, breathe, fly the remaining 90ft)

Improved Flyby Attack removes AoOs from the movement.

[Snowbluff]

Don't engage in melee unless suicidal.
Burrow/fly away if badly injured.

Also, you'd be amazed how many groups are unprepared to fight flying enemies, much less ones that won't close into melee, or who perform even the most rudimentary hit-and-run tactics. Even if someone casts Fly, that only gives a 60ft speed: he's never catching up to the dragon.

You've already answered why it's not suicidal. Bullrushing will win you the fight. For fighting, the poor maneuverability would get you caught if you're circle strafing versus a flying enemy. Outpacing a dragon is much easier than that, especially since there is a party of players thinking and only one DM. Of course, you can maintain this kind of thought. Engaging a party at all is asking for death if they have any level of savvy, but not all groups are that good, as you've said.

[Gavinfoxx]

Read this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204

[Chester]

So, would these feats work?

Flyby Attack
Improved Flyby Attack
Awaken Spell Resistance
Improved Initiative
Shape Breath
Combat Expertise

Point: I'm hoping that they are smart enough to work with the dragon; if they don't, I don't want the dragon to be a scrub, but they should have a fighting chance if they're prepared.

Or, at this point, is it easier to just make him Young Adult instead?

[Dr. Cliché]

Spoony is cool, but he isn't really that savvy when it comes to DnD (He prefers 3.5 over PF, claiming it is "fixed"). Dragons can only breath weapon every 1d4 rounds, which gives the party plenty of time to find cover/hide (dark stalker), and buff up while fighting it.

Depends where they're fighting though.

Not much cover to be had whilst climbing a cliff, for example. :smallwink:


~36 damage can be a good chunk of damage, but it's effectively single target while flying.

That's true, but how many party members are likely to be able to seriously threaten a flying dragon?

In addition, it does have spells for more options/protection. To take a couple of examples:

- Mage Armour can make it more of a pain to hit - especially for those party members who are forced to resort to backup weapons (which have fewer enchantments or which they're less proficient with).

- Blood Wind lets it use its natural attacks as ranged weapons - which can be an unexpected surprise for a weakened mage/archer. :smallbiggrin:


Not to mention adventurers are always loaded up with all sorts of gear. Dragons love their money, and circle strafing is only a slow as a hell way of getting it, and every round spent doing that is one more round the juicy targets can figure out a way to kill it.

Only assuming they have a way to kill it. I've seen a lot of parties with a lot of gear, but which are terribly suited to attack flying creatures.

If nothing else, answer me this - do really you think it would be better for the dragon to take the easier option and land, thereby exposing himself to full attacks from all party members?

[Slipperychicken]

For fighting, the poor maneuverability would get you caught if you're circle strafing versus a flying enemy.

I'll give you an analogous situation: Two combatants (I'll call them Draco and Harry) are locked in mortal combat in an arbitrarily-large empty parking lot (representing the open sky). Draco (representing the dragon) is wearing plate armor, riding a fully-gassed motorcycle, and skillfully wielding a flamethrower, while Harry (representing a fighter with CL8 Fly cast on him) has a segway with 8 minutes of power on it and a machete. It's easy to see how Draco totally outclasses Harry, and how the former should never need to come within the latter's reach.

[OldTrees1]

I'll give you an analogous situation: Two combatants (I'll call them Draco and Harry) are locked in mortal combat in an arbitrarily-large empty parking lot (representing the open sky). Draco (representing the dragon) is wearing plate armor, riding a fully-gassed motorcycle, and skillfully wielding a flamethrower, while Harry (representing a fighter with CL8 Fly cast on him) has a segway with 8 minutes of power on it and a machete. It's easy to see how Draco totally outclasses Harry, and how the former should never need to come within the latter's reach.

A Large dragon with Fly 150ft (poor) using flybys and turning around circles within an area 20ft wide and 155ft long (2 turn circuit, large size). A medium sized creature in the exact middle of that area needs only fly 65ft before they are adjacent to the dragon at either end.

A creature could ready an action to move away from the dragon as the dragon starts its flyby. This would result in the creature not being in the middle of the strafe zone when they get their next turn. Essentially they can get a move action in addition to their charge with this technique. However this requires readying an action first.

PC Speed: Tactic needed
150ft: Dragon[150ft poor flight] will not strafe
65ft: Move and attack after Dragon strafes
40ft: Charge and attack after Dragon strafes
25ft: Ready a move in response to the Dragon's strafe, Charge and attack after the Dragon strafes

PC Speed: Method
90ft: Fly spell + Haste
70ft: Raptorian + Haste
60ft: Fly spell
45ft: Starspawn + Haste
40ft: Raptorian
30ft: Dragonborn
15ft: Starspawn

[Rakaydos]

A Large dragon with Fly 150ft (poor) using flybys and turning around circles within an area 20ft wide and 155ft long (2 turn circuit, large size). A medium sized creature in the exact middle of that area needs only fly 65ft before they are adjacent to the dragon at either end.

A creature could ready an action to move away from the dragon as the dragon starts its flyby. This would result in the creature not being in the middle of the strafe zone when they get their next turn. Essentially they can get a move action in addition to their charge with this technique. However this requires readying an action first.

PC Speed: Tactic needed
150ft: Dragon[150ft poor flight] will not strafe
65ft: Move and attack after Dragon strafes
40ft: Charge and attack after Dragon strafes
25ft: Ready a move in response to the Dragon's strafe, Charge and attack after the Dragon strafes

PC Speed: Method
90ft: Fly spell + Haste
70ft: Raptorian + Haste
60ft: Fly spell
45ft: Starspawn + Haste
40ft: Raptorian
30ft: Dragonborn
15ft: Starspawn

Because the dragon needs 1d4 rounds to recharge his breath, turn speed hardly matters. He lines up his attack at 70' out on turn 1. If you move more than 20' away, he moves back up to 70' Otherwise, he does a flyby breath, ending up 80' past you (65' if you moved 15' away last turn) at the end of round 2. Round 3 he turns, and keeps the range ope until the turn before his breath recharges. The turn before recharge, he goes back to turn 1, lining up for his next run.

[Snowbluff]

That's true, but how many party members are likely to be able to seriously threaten a flying dragon?
A dragon is a fighter with 3 caster levels here. Sure, it's able, but it's also terribly outnumbered. A warblade would be a better melee fighter, a ranger is a better ranged fight, and a wizard is a better caster.


If nothing else, answer me this - do really you think it would be better for the dragon to take the easier option and land, thereby exposing himself to full attacks from all party members?
Blitzkrieg, baby. Your DPR is higher while in melee range. Pick off a target, and then get the hell out. As show below, you're vulnerable to any form of intelligent melee or party composition, so you really have nothing to lose hitting them before they can buff or react.

It would also stress the party out 2-3 times as much, since the dragon is acting three times as often. Psychological warfare. :smallamused:

A Large dragon with Fly 150ft (poor) using flybys and turning around circles within an area 20ft wide and 155ft long (2 turn circuit, large size). A medium sized creature in the exact middle of that area needs only fly 65ft before they are adjacent to the dragon at either end.

A creature could ready an action to move away from the dragon as the dragon starts its flyby. This would result in the creature not being in the middle of the strafe zone when they get their next turn. Essentially they can get a move action in addition to their charge with this technique. However this requires readying an action first.


Case in point about fly maneuverability.

[OldTrees1]

Because the dragon needs 1d4 rounds to recharge his breath, turn speed hardly matters. He lines up his attack at 70' out on turn 1. If you move more than 20' away, he moves back up to 70' Otherwise, he does a flyby breath, ending up 80' past you (65' if you moved 15' away last turn) at the end of round 2. Round 3 he turns, and keeps the range ope until the turn before his breath recharges. The turn before recharge, he goes back to turn 1, lining up for his next run.


Case in point about fly maneuverability.

I was assuming the dragon did a flyby every turn since turn speed really had almost no impact. Only 5ft was lost each way due to turning. So regardless of whether the dragon was using flyby attack every turn, it still only takes a 35ft* fly speed to charge the dragon after the strafe.

Rakaydos is correct that the readied action would have to be moved to trigger during the flyby (in response to the standard action perhaps?) rather than triggering at the start of the flyby.


*I had made a typo in the original post. 65/2 < 35


However I will note that the superior speed of the dragon combined with flyby attack does give it a 2:1 advantage
1) Dragon Flyby attack.
2) PC charging 70ft to engage.
3) Dragon Standard action attack followed by 150ft retreat.
4) Repeat 1-3

[Snowbluff]

*I had made a typo in the original post. 65/2 < 35


However I will note that the superior speed of the dragon combined with flyby attack does give it a 2:1 advantage
1) Dragon Flyby attack.
2) PC charging 70ft to engage.
3) Dragon Standard action attack followed by 150ft retreat.
4) Repeat 1-3

Charging allows double movement. A bunch of the flight speeds allow a hit (or more, depending on the melee fighter) each turn. A single casting of Celestial Aspect gives 100 Fly (good) by itself.

[Tar Palantir]

Keep in mind that this is still the basic starting tactic; it's low risk, and if the party has no answer it rolls right over them. If they do have someone who can fly, the dragon can change things up. If only one PC can fly, I'd have the dragon just keep climbing away until the ground-bound PCs couldn't contribute with spells/arrows before turning on the flyer for a little 1v1 (your average draconic full attack is nothing to scoff at, especially compared to relatively unoptimized melee). If the flyer breaks away, put that double downward speed to use and nail the wizard with a charge from 600ft away.

Dragons are canny opponents. They have superior mobility and senses, and while their spellcasting is fairly weak it should not be ignored (Mirror Image, here's looking at you). A dragon plays to its strengths, which depending on the foe could be basically anything. If the enemy has no range, it kites. If they're all casters, it puts those natural weapons to use, ganks somebody, and gets outta dodge to rinse and repeat later. Whatever works.

[Snowbluff]

Keep in mind that this is still the basic starting tactic; it's low risk, and if the party has no answer it rolls right over them. If they do have someone who can fly, the dragon can change things up. If only one PC can fly, I'd have the dragon just keep climbing away until the ground-bound PCs couldn't contribute with spells/arrows before turning on the flyer for a little 1v1 (your average draconic full attack is nothing to scoff at, especially compared to relatively unoptimized melee). If the flyer breaks away, put that double downward speed to use and nail the wizard with a charge from 600ft away. You can't full attack at height. You have to keep moving with the worse maneuverability levels. And that's if only 1 can fly. 8 level casters have a few more 3rd level spells slots. If the dragon tries to make it 1v1, it's really simple to go on and finish the mission and ignore it.

The party's spellcasting is overall better, assuming it's got a good class spread. Again, that's a savvy party. The point is that Spoony is wrong. A good party would curbstomp a dragon, especially if they know about it beforehand.

[OldTrees1]

Charging allows double movement. A bunch of the flight speeds allow a hit (or more, depending on the melee fighter) each turn. A single casting of Celestial Aspect gives 100 Fly (good) by itself.

I figured double movement into my charge calculations.
I did not know about Celestial Aspect so I was operating under:
Fly spell: Charging lets you engage at a 1:2 disadvantage
Fly + Haste spells: The dragon gets the first attack but otherwise it is 1:1.

A party should be able to defeat a dragon if they can gain sufficient mobility (fly speed equal to or greater than half the dragon's fly speed)

[Rakaydos]

With the Wingover and flyby attack feats, a Medium dragon with a line breath (Young or very young Blue) can fly in 70', breath another 60 feet, wingover (10' for a turn in any direction) and fly 70' back out. that gives a 130' engagement range, which should be just outside a Fly spell's charge range. At Juvinile, the Blue becomes Large, giving another 20' to the breath range. At Young Adult it can cast Haste on itself.

[OldTrees1]

With the Wingover and flyby attack feats, a Medium dragon with a line breath (Young or very young Blue) can fly in 70', breath another 60 feet, wingover (10' for a turn in any direction) and fly 70' back out. that gives a 130' engagement range, which should be just outside a Fly spell's charge range. At Juvinile, the Blue becomes Large, giving another 20' to the breath range. At Young Adult it can cast Haste on itself.

Wingover is a useful feat. That 130' engagement range means the minimum PC speed for engagement is 45'.
Readied move action in response to breath weapon = 45'
Charge = 90'

With haste on the dragon (higher CR), we have a 145' engagement range. This means the minimum PC speed is 50'.

Once the dragon reaches 200' fly speed, their hasted engagement range increases to 170' and the minimum PC engagement speed increases to 60'. This is also the point when the hasted fly spell and the sanctified fly spell stop neutralizing strafing. The sanctified spell combined with haste will still prevent a wingover strafe.

[Rakaydos]

dont forget the breath weapon range increases.

Incidently, is there a feat that increases a creature's natural maneuverability?

[MadGreenSon]

dont forget the breath weapon range increases.

Incidently, is there a feat that increases a creature's natural maneuverability?

I'm pretty sure that would be "Improved Maneuverability" :smallbiggrin:

[Rakaydos]

I'm pretty sure that would be "Improved Maneuverability" :smallbiggrin:

I didnt see it in the SRD, so what book is it from?

[Gavinfoxx]

I didnt see it in the SRD, so what book is it from?

Why would most feats be in the SRD? Most feats are, you know. Out of it. Look in Races of the Wild and Draconomicon for flight helping feats.

[MadGreenSon]

Sorry, it's Draconomicon and there may be similar in Races of the Wild

[OldTrees1]

dont forget the breath weapon range increases.

Incidently, is there a feat that increases a creature's natural maneuverability?

Good point.

Great Wyrm Blue Dragon
140ft Line of Electricity
Perfect Reverse (0ft turn around cost)
that would only add 5ft to the range. Not worth it.]
200ft fly speed
Haste spell


Fly 110ft out, Breathe 140ft, Reverse(cost 0ft), Fly 110ft back.
Total engagement rage: 255ft

Minimum PC engagement speed: 85ft (Haste + Fly)
Speed to netralize strafing: 125ft (Haste + Celestial Aspect)

[Snowbluff]

Good point.

Great Wyrm Blue Dragon
140ft Line of Electricity
Wingover (10ft turn around cost)
200ft fly speed
Haste spell

Fly 110ft out, Breathe 140ft, Wingover(cost 10ft), Fly 110ft back.
Total engagement rage: 250ft

Minimum PC engagement speed: 85ft (Haste + Fly)
Speed to netralize strafing: 125ft (Haste + Celestial Aspect)
Great Wyrm? Yeah, both parties should be flying at perfect flight by then. And should have spells that reach further than that. Not to mention immunity to th breath weapon damage. Not a very good example. :smalltongue:

Level 8, was it?

[OldTrees1]

Great Wyrm? Yeah, both parties should be flying at perfect flight by then. And should have spells that reach further than that. Not a very good example. :smalltongue:

Level 8, was it?

I was showing from the low level example (lvl 8) through the dragon's maximum (Great Wyrm) the PCs should still be able to engage the dragon.

[Snowbluff]

I was showing from the low level example (lvl 8) through the dragon's maximum (Great Wyrm) the PCs should still be able to engage the dragon.

Oh, okay. I think it can go faster with items, though. Not that it matters, since spending a round there would be scary as hell.

[MadGreenSon]

I was showing from the low level example (lvl 8) through the dragon's maximum (Great Wyrm) the PCs should still be able to engage the dragon.

You are such a nice DM. My players know how pro-Dragon I am and they know unless they run across a terribly lazy Dragon that the things will have class levels and likely be extremely dangerous.

The BBEG of the last Epic game I ran was an Adult Black Dragon who was also a fully tricked out Mailman, with Leadership (+Epic Leadership and other Leader enhancing feats)

Good times.:smallbiggrin:

On the other hand it looks like you have a good encounter mapped out, I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Try and remember to have the Dragon act offended that these things are attacking if they do. A bit of roleplay costs nothing after all.

[OldTrees1]

You are such a nice DM. My players know how pro-Dragon I am and they know unless they run across a terribly lazy Dragon that the things will have class levels and likely be extremely dangerous.
Agreed. Dragons should be extremely dangerous. Being able to engage does not entail victory or even a chance in some cases. (A small group of commoners can engage a Tarrasque. None will survive.)

Honestly my favorite way to challenge my players with a dragon is to have the dragon snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as a result of personality flaws like pride.

[Snowbluff]

The BBEG of the last Epic game I ran was an Adult Black Dragon who was also a fully tricked out Mailman, with Leadership (+Epic Leadership and other Leader enhancing feats)

How was that supposed to give you trouble? Anything the mailman part could do is nullified by a forth level spell. :smalltongue:

[Captnq]

Equipment
He's only Challenge Raiting 8. He has 27,000 gp for WBL.

He goes out and buys Bracers of Armor AC 1. He gets anti-impact. Total cost 3,000 gp
Anti-impact armor doesn’t give extra protection against weapon damage (beyond its AC bonus), but bludgeoning damage that affects all or most of the entire body (such as constriction and falling damage) is halved.

Next he should buy +2 Str belt (4,000 gp) and a necklace +2 Con (4,000 gp)

We have 16,000 left.

Given the lousy Dragon touch attack, I recommend +3 EB to the bracers of armor and Ghost Ward +1.

That will give your dragon +1 damage, +1 to hit, + 15 HPs, +4 to base AC, and +7 to touch attack AC.

Total HP: 157
AC: 27
Touch: 16
Flat Foot: 27

Feats
Power attack, Cleave, great Cleave, Improved Natural Attack (claws) Improved Natural Attack (wings)


Tactics (3rd level sorcerer, right?):
The dragon flies up to 140 feet above the players. He waits until they are all in the same spot. He casts Alter Self to increase his size from large to huge. He now occupies a space 15'x15'.

He circles over them, ending his turn directly over them. On his next turn, he chooses not to move forward. He stalls. As a free action, he drops 140' onto the players.

Damage for getting hit with a falling object is (Pounds/200)d6 + (Distance object fell-10)d6. Max 20d6. There is no Reflex roll to avoid. No dodge. No nothing. Heavy object lands on you: squish.

Under the rules, the dragon is a large object. A medium dragon is 200. Large dragon is 1,600. Huge Dragon is 12,800 lbs. The weight is spread out over 9 squares. So. It actually works out the weight that hits any given square is around 1,400 lbs. So 1400 lbs/200 = 7d6 and (140-10)/10 = 13d6. Each player in the 15'x15' area gets hit for 20d6 damage.

The dragon falls 140 feet, so he takes 14d6. Which the anti-impact halves.
Average damage to dragon= 25 Hit Points.
Average damage to the players 70.

THEN he gets the start of his round and takes a full attack action.
He is HUGE size.

1 bite +24 (2d8+7) [Avg Dam: 16]
2 claws +20 (3d6+3) [Avg Dam: 13]
2 wings +20 (2d6+3) [Avg Dam: 10]
1 Tail Slap +24 (2d6+11) [Avg Dam: 18]

If he successfully kills someone, he gets a cleave attack. He cleaves with his tail. He should save using power attack until round two when he can judge their AC.

Summary:
Expect to inflict about 180 hp of damage total, round one, then if he power attacks for 5 points, He can inflict an average of 57 HP of damage a round after that. Most likely more if they have many low level targets for him to squish and get great cleave chain going.

Summary:
NEVER FIGHT A DRAGON IN THE OPEN.

[MadGreenSon]

How was that supposed to give you trouble? Anything the mailman part could do is nullified by a forth level spell. :smalltongue:

Ok, I'm dumb. Which fourth level spell? When they tried the buffed up Shivering Touch and got nowhere they started to worry. What did the players miss?

[Snowbluff]

Ok, I'm dumb. Which fourth level spell? When they tried the buffed up Shivering Touch and got nowhere they started to worry. What did the players miss?

Ray Deflection is common, but Friendly Fire is better. All ranged touch attacks are useless, or worse than useless. The target would have to dispel first. :smallwink:

[Captnq]

It just occured to me that you mentioned they would be fighting on a cliff? Any square not occupied by a player would take 20d6. That might cause the cliff to collapse.

EDIT: MyBAD! Make the belt +1 Str and the amulet +1 Con. Blue dragons have odd number strength and con. That will free up 6,000 gp of WBL. Get a ring. Draconic Zeal, Greater 6,000 gp

Once a day, you can activate this as a swift action and get to make one melee attack. You roll is applied against 6 targets within reach.

So, now he has a use for his swift action in the first round. He of course uses his tail.

[Zetapup]

Damage for getting hit with a falling object is (Pounds/200)d6 + (Distance object fell-10)d6. Max 20d6. There is no Reflex roll to avoid. No dodge. No nothing. Heavy object lands on you: squish.

Wait, I thought one of the books (dungeonscape if I recall correctly) gave you a dc 15 reflex save to avoid damage from falling objects? I'll do some searching and doublecheck. Otherwise, looks pretty good.

Edit: Okay, according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285237) thread, it is indeed a dc 15 reflex save and from Heroes of Battle.

[OldTrees1]

Equipment
Damage for getting hit with a falling object is (Pounds/200)d6 + (Distance object fell-10)d6. Max 20d6. There is no Reflex roll to avoid. No dodge. No nothing. Heavy object lands on you: squish.

Citation please? There are several traps that deal falling object damage after a reflex save. Falling Block Trap being a famous one in the SRD/DMG.

Edit: Zetapup beat me to it.

[Captnq]

Wait, I thought one of the books (dungeonscape if I recall correctly) gave you a dc 15 reflex save to avoid damage from falling objects? I'll do some searching and doublecheck. Otherwise, looks pretty good.

You are thinking of falling stalactites. Big difference. However, I understand the desire to make it so their is SOME chance of failure. I suppose the dragon would need to "line up the shot." The DC of a given square is AC 5. I suppose with a -1 to hit for every 10 feet, he's have to roll to hit AC 19, or something. but with the dragons BAB, he'd hit on anything but a 1. but if he DID roll a 1, you could use the miss rules for splash weapons. He misses by say... 20 feet in a random direction (1d8 count clockwise)?

I suppose we need to give the bastards a chance.

[Chester]

Stuff.

Yikes. That's brutal. :smalleek:

I'm not actually going for a TPK encounter; I'm just willing to show them that they shouldn't mess with even a juvenile dragon if they choose to do so.


Dragons should be extremely dangerous. Being able to engage does not entail victory or even a chance in some cases.

That's the idea. They're stupid if they engage it unprepared--they think they're going to see a human sorcerer. :smallwink:


It just occured to me that you mentioned they would be fighting on a cliff?

Only if they're stupid. If they don't play the by the dragon's rules, they don't get to take the stairs down. :smallbiggrin:

[Captnq]

Citation please? There are several traps that deal falling object damage after a reflex save. Falling Block Trap being a famous one in the SRD/DMG.

Edit: Zetapup beat me to it.

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

DMG example of falling object hitting someone
Example: A magic flying ship tilts to one side and drops a 400-
pound stone statue (a petrified comrade) overboard. The statue
deals 2d6 points of damage to anything it strikes by virtue of its
weight alone. If the ship were 100 feet in the air at the time, the
falling statue would deal an additional 9d6 points of damage, for a
total of 11d6

There are no rules on avoiding a falling object. None.

Oh, there are rules on traps. No question about that. Rules on falling Stalagtites. Rules on situations where the player walks into something.
The only rules on what happens when a giant rock hits you, or a dragon falls out of the sky, or a monk jumps off a cliff and falls on you (he takes no damage because of slow fall. You take full damage from the monk's impact) is what you see above. Even in the example there is no saving throw, no to hit roll, nothing. If you are in the wrong square, squish.

You see, this is not a trap, so trap rules don't apply. He is not a stalagtite, so the Dungeonscape rules don't apply. This is DMG pg 303. Poorly written, yes. Totally RAW? Oh yeah.

In D&D, If Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.

[OldTrees1]

There are no rules on avoiding a falling object. None.

Oh, there are rules on traps. No question about that. Rules on falling Stalagtites. Rules on situations where the player walks into something.
The only rules on what happens when a giant rock hits you, or a dragon falls out of the sky, or a monk jumps off a cliff and falls on you (he takes no damage because of slow fall. You take full damage from the monk's impact) is what you see above. Even in the example there is no saving throw, no to hit roll, nothing. If you are in the wrong square, squish.

What about the rules for a Dragon falling on someone


Crush (Ex)
This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down).

[Captnq]

Yikes. That's brutal. :smalleek:
I'm not actually going for a TPK encounter; I'm just willing to show them that they shouldn't mess with even a juvenile dragon if they choose to do so.


Ah.

Well, how about this. They are going to see the Sorcerer when they see another adventuring party ahead of them. They are very well armed. They say, "We're here to kill the dragon. It's OUR Kill!" They threaten the party with Lethal weapons. Party will back off. The other adventurers Stick close together in standard marching order. Two across, three deep, right next to each other, like you were marching through a dungeon.

The dragon drops out of the sky.

Talk to yourself out loud, "Okay... alright... 73 points of damage. The dragon takes... 52. But he takes half... 26. Dragon takes his swift action. Activates his Draconic Zeal Greater..." Roll dice" okay, he hits all siz with his tail for... 16 points of damage. Oh. three cleave attacks already?" Scribble a bit, "Okay. NOW he takes his full attack action."

Roll them bones in front of them. Then, after the NPC party is paste. The dragon looks up at them and says, "You... aren't with these guys... are you?" Assuming the players are smart, they say, "HELL NO!" Then the dragon proceeds to swallow the NPC party's magic equipment (into his hoard gullet). As he swallows magic items he casually chats with them, "Been listening in on the conversation. Wasn't sure if I should kill them or not. You know how it is, if you kill every adventurer who comes to you, after a while they stop coming. Hard to get work." he sighs and picks a tooth with a long sword, "Just the other day I was talking with my friend Mallus. We were talking about the realitive-" A Pause, "Am I boring you? I tend to talk too much. LOVE to hear myself talk..."

[Zetapup]

There are no rules on avoiding a falling object. None.

Actually, see my edit. The source for avoiding a falling object is Heroes of Battle, page 68, under the "damage" section. "A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 reflex save". It's annoying that it's out of core and practically fine print, but that's the way it is I guess.


Ah.

Well, how about this. They are going to see the Sorcerer when they see another adventuring party ahead of them. They are very well armed. They say, "We're here to kill the dragon. It's OUR Kill!" They threaten the party with Lethal weapons. Party will back off. The other adventurers Stick close together in standard marching order. Two across, three deep, right next to each other, like you were marching through a dungeon.

The dragon drops out of the sky.

Talk to yourself out loud, "Okay... alright... 73 points of damage. The dragon takes... 52. But he takes half... 26. Dragon takes his swift action. Activates his Draconic Zeal Greater..." Roll dice" okay, he hits all siz with his tail for... 16 points of damage. Oh. three cleave attacks already?" Scribble a bit, "Okay. NOW he takes his full attack action."

Roll them bones in front of them. Then, after the NPC party is paste. The dragon looks up at them and says, "You... aren't with these guys... are you?" Assuming the players are smart, they say, "HELL NO!" Then the dragon proceeds to swallow the NPC party's magic equipment (into his hoard gullet). As he swallows magic items he casually chats with them, "Been listening in on the conversation. Wasn't sure if I should kill them or not. You know how it is, if you kill every adventurer who comes to you, after a while they stop coming. Hard to get work." he sighs and picks a tooth with a long sword, "Just the other day I was talking with my friend Mallus. We were talking about the realitive-" A Pause, "Am I boring you? I tend to talk too much. LOVE to hear myself talk..."

However, I'd probably let the reflex save slide since I love this image :smallsmile:

[Captnq]

What about the rules for a Dragon falling on someone

Yes. But why use them when you can use:


If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

And falling is a free action. You choose to do nothing to fly. You choose not to move. You fall.

Now, with crush, the dragon takes no damage. That's why dragons DO that. Remember, the dragon IS taking 14d6 damage from this stunt. Hence the con boost and the Anti-impact ASA. Normally he'd take an avg of 49 points of damage from this stunt. That's one THIRD of a standard Juvenile's hit points. Dragons don't heal easily. This is a rather "Win or lose, it ends HERE." sort of situation.

[OldTrees1]

Yes. But why use them when you can use:

RAW, RAI, Balance, Game Design and Enjoyment

RAW: Specific(Crush) trumps General(Falling object)

RAI: Falling damage was not intended as a no defense "I win" button

Balance: Crush has a more balanced effort/effect ratio than "free action/I win"

Game Design: Effects that are both "No defense" and "I win" are too dictatorial for a cooperative storytelling game.

Enjoyment: I do not find inflicting no defense deaths enjoyable, nor do my players enjoy suffering no defense deaths. (However this is subjective)

[Captnq]

Actually, see my edit. The source for avoiding a falling object is Heroes of Battle, page 68, under the "damage" section. "A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 reflex save". It's annoying that it's out of core and practically fine print, but that's the way it is I guess.

I read that before and I'm on the fence about it. On one hand, it's nice and simple Reflex 15, done. On the other hand, it covers dropping objects, or objects in a controlled dive. This is a belly flop.

I mean, here's how contradictory HoB is: "The range increment of a dropped object is 50 feet"

So, I can drop an object, and it will fall 250 feet in a round. However, if I tuck in my wings and choose to drop like a stone, the best I can fall is 150 feet?

So if I flap my arms, but cannot fly, I fall 150 feet over a 160 foot drop. However, if someone is riding a dragon, he could take a item'd pool of water, and drop it. The HANKY will drop 160 feet, and assuming I made my to hit roll, turn into a pool of water on impact, which I will fall into next round after I fall the next 10 feet.

I call B**L-S**T.

Inanimate objects, I'll give you that. Someone willing falling out of the sky with the intent of taking damage when he plows into you at max force, I don't think that's the same thing. This is suicide, unless you are prepared.

[Captnq]

RAI: Falling damage was not intended as a no defense "I win" button


Huh?

Okay. You explain this:

I am a 12,600 lbs BEAST of Scales, Lightning and DEATH. I occupy an impact surface of 225 square feet.

I drop 140', that's 14 stories, and land RIGHT ON TOP OF YOU.

You are telling me... that a 1st level COMMONER, has a 30% chance of taking no damage? and you think that's RAI?

No. I think the rules as intended are, if an object the size of a fully grown male african elephant falls off a 14 story building and lands in the square that I am standing in, I'm dead. The elephant is also dead as well. There is Elephant EVERYWHERE. Splattered Elephant guts over everyone walking down the street during lunch hour, gazing in horror as they witness a man flattened by an elephant, then recoiling as they are showered in elephant gore.

I do not have a 30% chance of going, "WOO! Fortunately that elephant splattered around me!" Because a reflex save does not actually MOVE you. If I'm at dead center of the impact, you honestly think the rules intended for me to live and the elephant to... I don't know... break apart around me?"

Reflex for half, MAYBE. But reflex for nothing? NO. That is DUMB. That is NOT RAI.

[Zetapup]

I agree that a flat dc 15 is pretty silly too. If I were to homebrew something, I'd prolly do a scaling dc based on size, with half damage if you succeed. It still gets a bit funky with evasion (roguespace somehow lets them avoid the 15x15 dragon's splat attack?), but it's better than the current options of a. no way to avoid or b. 30% chance for a commoner to avoid the falling dragon.

[OldTrees1]

Huh?

-snip-

Reflex for half, MAYBE. But reflex for nothing? NO. That is DUMB. That is NOT RAI.

When did I say Reflex for nothing? Nowhere. When did I say a low DC reflex save? Nowhere.
What I did say was I do not think the authors intended falling damage as a no defense I win button.

I would have appreciated if you did not falsely accuse me or misrepresent what I said via a strawman. I assume that mistake was unintentional.

[Captnq]

When did I say Reflex for nothing? Nowhere.
What I did say was I do not think the authors intended falling damage as a no defense I win button.

I would have appreciated if you did not falsely accuse me or misrepresent what I said via a strawman. I assume that mistake was unintentional.

Your RAW vrs RAI I assumed were in reference to the RAW and RAI hypotheses that were already submitted.


Damage: The damage dealt by a dropped object is based
on the weight of the object and the distance the object
falls, as noted on page 303 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making
a DC 15 Reflex save.

Heroes of battle.

RAW is, getting hit with dropped objects, easy to avoid. You side step. Done.
But getting hit with FALLING objects is a whole other ball of wax. If it's dropped, you get a reflex. If it's a trap, you get the traps DC reflex save. There should always be a price. Always a cost. In this case, the cost is your enemy is riding down the attack right on top of you, like the Texan on the Nuke in doctor strangelove.

And note, I do suggest a To hit roll, it's just the Dragons BAB is so high he's only miss on a 1. Also, the dragon cannot do this in the same round he manuvers into position. If the players are looking straight up at the dragon and going, "Hey. We are all clustered together and he is directly above us. He's got an Initiative of -3. Maybe we should just shoot up at him and see what happens."

They deserve to get squished. Then explain anti-impact and maybe they'll drop the 2,000 gp.

Although... You know what. I did figure out a defense.


Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.

Since this does involve a RAW reading of the rules, by RAW the monk's slow fall ability has a stand alone sentence that states, "she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is." Now, clearly the RAI is that the monk is falling, but in a twisted view, any falling damage to the monk could be negated, and the Dragon's Impact IS falling damage.

Considering how much monk's suck, I would go so far as to say the monk slows the over all dragon's momentum for anyone under the dragon at the moment of impact. And if the monk happens to have unlimited slow fall, the monk could "deflect" the dragon's impact. Of couse you might think the monk needs a wall, but that has been clarified to include any stable surface, which in this case would be the floor.

Of course this is a most convoluted interpertation of the rules, but I rather like the imagery as well as the poetic justice of it all.

Dragon Belly flops on a party. The monk catches it so the Dragon lands unharmed and the rest of the party is standing around under the dragons legs going, "What the-?"

[OldTrees1]

Your RAW vrs RAI I assumed were in reference to the RAW and RAI hypotheses that were already submitted.

Ah.

The RAW part mentioned both rules (falling objects and the Crush attack).
The RAI part only mentioned the falling objects rule. With what appeared to me as an authorial oversight resulting in unintended consequences. (Aka RAW =/= RAI for falling objects)

I can see how my arrangement and word choice implied otherwise.