A caster being a better fighter than a fighter

[Rakaydos]

I'm looking for a "Squishy" like a wizard or sorcerer, who is built so as to be a better fighter than a fighter.

Notable requirements: access to comparable attack bonuses (either from BAB enhancing spells like Divine Power or single attack enhancements like quickened True strike), fighter tricks (fighter feats are available through a Spell compendium spell, but other spells that can mimic the results of feat chains works too) and comparable durability (AC and average HP especially).

My first thought is a Stalwart ACF Sorcerer (Complete mage) with a Toad familiar, who goes Abjurant Champion, but what other tricks are there?

[(Un)Inspired]

Wizard 20 without any ACF?

[Zanos]

Polymorph and it's variants will give you hilarious physical scores to wreck face with.

[Vhaidara]

Polymorph and Shapechange. Done.

[Urpriest]

You list Abjurant Champion, which means you know what a Gish is, but you don't use the word Gish in your post. What is the difference between what you are looking for and a Gish?

[Rakaydos]

You list Abjurant Champion, which means you know what a Gish is, but you don't use the word Gish in your post. What is the difference between what you are looking for and a Gish?

Because I'm trying to avoid having the class take ANY "Fightery" classes... and any castery stuff that isnt directly comparable to the fighter goes in an "Extra stuff" category.

Most people approach the "Wizards are better than fighters" with being more wizardy- I'm trying to make a caster who is DIRECTLY comparable to the fighter.

[Urpriest]

Because I'm trying to avoid having the class take ANY "Fightery" classes... and any castery stuff that isnt directly comparable to the fighter goes in an "Extra stuff" category.

Most people approach the "Wizards are better than fighters" with being more wizardy- I'm trying to make a caster who is DIRECTLY comparable to the fighter.

But Abjurant Champion isn't a "Fightery" class?

What about other gish PrCs? Where are you drawing the line?

[CyberThread]

I once had a wizard take druid levels, up to the point she had 20 druid levels. Was a very good wizard that behaved like a fighter.

[Zweisteine]

Are variants like Stalwart Sorcerer allowed?

Are you allowed to use the oft-ignored rules that Sorcerers may learn spells that are normally only divine?

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.I imagine that if the party cleric casts Divine Favor every day (or a every combat), the sorcerer would be able to gain some understanding of it and learn it as a normal spell.

Is Tenser's Transformation okay?

And, of course, the polymorph subschool is the answer.

[Rakaydos]

Tensor's Transformation would be a solid answer, if you can meet the defence requirements and "dirty tricks" while it's up.

Prestige classes are fine, if the sorcerer (or other class, if there isnt a way around Quicken being useless for spontaneous casters) can qualify for them on their own.

[Seerow]

If you're just avoiding Gish classes, but have no problem with caster prestige classes, I'd recommend Wizard or Sorcerer going into Incanatrix. Maybe find something else for the other levels (either to get extra feats or more metamagic reducing. Sacred Exorcist to nab turn undead and some divine metamagic might not go amiss, especially on a Sorcerer base with all that charisma).

Basically you're looking to get metamagic as cheap as you can, and persist as many of your Wizard spells as possible. From there it's just a matter of listing all of the various spells a Wizard has that make him great at combat, and sit back and laugh as the Fighter cries.

[Rakaydos]

What's the lowest level you could pull off persisted metamagic good enough to be a front line combatant?

[Karnith]

What's the lowest level you could pull off persisted metamagic good enough to be a front line combatant?
Incantatrix-based Persisting comes online around level 8. If you somehow had enough feats to spare, you could do arcane Persistomancy around level 6 through Spelldancer, but realistically it's coming online after Incantatrix.

Alternately, you could try a Cleric dip and use Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician/Naenhoon/whatever to use DMM on your spells.

[Piggy Knowles]

If Abjurant Champion doesn't count as a "fightery" class for some reason, then Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty hard to beat.

[Urpriest]

If Abjurant Champion doesn't count as a "fightery" class for some reason, then Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty hard to beat.

Yeah, your standard Swiftblade gish doesn't dip any base classes, if that's the standard you're going for. That was most of why I was confused.

[Stoneback]

Hmm.

Human cloistered cleric
Domains: time, planning, knowledge

Feats:

H. Extra turning
1. DMM
1C. Knowledge Devotion
1C. Extend Spell (from Planning domain)
1C. Improved initiative (from Time domain)
2W. Scribe Scroll
3. Persist Spell

At level 7 you can cast Divine Power. Then you're golden. Additionally, Time is a strong domain, with access to Haste at spell level 3 and Contingency at 6 among others.

Try to trade out Planning for a Devotion feat. I don't know if there is one attached to that school, so you may have to make it up. The spell list is kind of weak.

[amalcon]

The most straightforward way to do this is to take the feat Arcane Disciple: War for access to Divine Power on an Incantatrix-based persistomancer. That's three levels, three feats, and a skill spoken for (Incantatrix gives the fourth feat needed for this). This also saves you a stat-boosting item (Divine Power gives a large enhancement to Strength)

The best entry for this purpose is Wizard 5- Elven Generalist. Stalwart Sorcerer has the HP going for it, but Wizard has Int synergy. That ends up mattering a lot more. The fifth level feat can be any of the following: Extend Spell, trade it for Spontaneous Divination, trade it for a really good domain granted power such as Travel.

If you want to do this at the earliest possible level (8), you need to hit a DC 48 Spellcraft check. You can take 10 on this check, so you need a +38 mod. The low-hanging fruit are +11 from ranks, +4 from Intelligence (16 base, +2 levels), +2 synergy from Knowledge: Arcana, and +2 from Aid Another from your familiar. PHB spells get you an easy +4 more (Heroism, Fox's Cunning). That's +23, so you'll need another +15. It gets harder from here; you need some obscure, debatable, or homebrew stuff, and/or actually spending build resources on it. The simplest approach is to craft eight construct "helpers" to Aid Another you. This takes a feat, but Craft Construct is a pretty good one anyway.

That takes care of attack bonus. The next hardest bit is going to be HP (AC is easy: Luminous Armor + Persistent Shield + Polymorph or Persistent Alter Self). You get some of that from buffs that give temporary HP, but the rest is going to need to come the old-fashioned way: from Constitution. Seeing as how you don't actually need other physical stats, you will probably want to spend a lot of money on an Amulet of Health. You can potentially get good mileage out of prestige classes here, for a bigger hit die. Honestly, you're going to be a bit behind on HP. Make up for it with Persistent Greater Mirror Image and other good miss-chance spells. If you took Craft Construct above, at absurdly high levels you can just make yourself a Shield Guardian. If Dragon material is fair game, there's the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat.

"Fighter tricks" mostly amount to the various special attacks and Intimidate abuse. Intimidate abuse is replicated easily with fear spells. The best way to handle special attacks is with Telekinesis spell + Extraordinary Concentration feat, giving you a free Grapple / Trip / Bullrush attempt every round with none of the drawbacks of those things. The next best way is to use Summon Monster N or craft a construct to do these things for you. You can, of course, give yourself whichever special attack feat you feel you need with Heroics and do this the old-fashioned way.

[(Un)Inspired]

The most straightforward way to do this is to take the feat Arcane Disciple: War for access to Divine Power on an Incantatrix-based persistomancer. That's three levels, three feats, and a skill spoken for (Incantatrix gives the fourth feat needed for this). This also saves you a stat-boosting item (Divine Power gives a large enhancement to Strength)

The best entry for this purpose is Wizard 5- Elven Generalist. Stalwart Sorcerer has the HP going for it, but Wizard has Int synergy. That ends up mattering a lot more. The fifth level feat can be any of the following: Extend Spell, trade it for Spontaneous Divination, trade it for a really good domain granted power such as Travel.

If you want to do this at the earliest possible level (8), you need to hit a DC 48 Spellcraft check. You can take 10 on this check, so you need a +38 mod. The low-hanging fruit are +11 from ranks, +4 from Intelligence (16 base, +2 levels), +2 synergy from Knowledge: Arcana, and +2 from Aid Another from your familiar. PHB spells get you an easy +4 more (Heroism, Fox's Cunning). That's +23, so you'll need another +15. It gets harder from here; you need some obscure, debatable, or homebrew stuff, and/or actually spending build resources on it. The simplest approach is to craft eight construct "helpers" to Aid Another you. This takes a feat, but Craft Construct is a pretty good one anyway.

That takes care of attack bonus. The next hardest bit is going to be HP (AC is easy: Luminous Armor + Persistent Shield + Polymorph or Persistent Alter Self). You get some of that from buffs that give temporary HP, but the rest is going to need to come the old-fashioned way: from Constitution. Seeing as how you don't actually need other physical stats, you will probably want to spend a lot of money on an Amulet of Health. You can potentially get good mileage out of prestige classes here, for a bigger hit die. Honestly, you're going to be a bit behind on HP. Make up for it with Persistent Greater Mirror Image and other good miss-chance spells. If you took Craft Construct above, at absurdly high levels you can just make yourself a Shield Guardian. If Dragon material is fair game, there's the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat.

"Fighter tricks" mostly amount to the various special attacks and Intimidate abuse. Intimidate abuse is replicated easily with fear spells. The best way to handle special attacks is with Telekinesis spell + Extraordinary Concentration feat, giving you a free Grapple / Trip / Bullrush attempt every round with none of the drawbacks of those things. The next best way is to use Summon Monster N or craft a construct to do these things for you. You can, of course, give yourself whichever special attack feat you feel you need with Heroics and do this the old-fashioned way.

Honestly this probably isn't the most straightforward way to do this.

[Talya]

What do people who have no optimization experience generally believe that a fighter can do better than a wizard? No, more specific than "swing a sword."

I'd say: Taking damage in close combat

Ironicly, they don't think a fighter can outdamage a wizard (which they can -- and should.) They think about the fighter's d10 hit die, his heavy armor. The fighter is considered a "frontline combatant" while the wizard has to sit back from safety behind the lines so as not to die.

The wizard's defensive spells do everything you need here. Greater Blink and Mirror Image alone make the wizard a better tank than the actual tank.

[Rakaydos]

What book do I need to find to look up Incantrix? It seems to be the key piece of "Wizards beat even warblades in swordfights" build, and so useful to brow beat DMs into allowing Tome of Battle.

[Zanos]

Player's Guide to Faerun.

Look at the third level ability of the class and persistent spell.

Optimize spellcraft.

[Vogonjeltz]

What do people who have no optimization experience generally believe that a fighter can do better than a wizard? No, more specific than "swing a sword."

I'd say: Taking damage in close combat

Ironicly, they don't think a fighter can outdamage a wizard (which they can -- and should.) They think about the fighter's d10 hit die, his heavy armor. The fighter is considered a "frontline combatant" while the wizard has to sit back from safety behind the lines so as not to die.

The wizard's defensive spells do everything you need here. Greater Blink and Mirror Image alone make the wizard a better tank than the actual tank.

Potentially.

MIC has armor/gear that lets a Fighter have haste, blur, etcetera. Abilities that can be used multiple times a day (equivalent to multiple castings really).

Yes, these can be disabled via dispel magic, but so can all caster buffs. I think how effectively a caster can mimic a warrior type is very dependent on enemies never doing anything to negate magic.

If your DM is going to be that gentle it doesn't really matter how you play, they're probably fudging dice rolls in favor of the players too right?

[Talya]

Yes, these can be disabled via dispel magic, but so can all caster buffs. I think how effectively a caster can mimic a warrior type is very dependent on enemies never doing anything to negate magic.

If your DM is going to be that gentle it doesn't really matter how you play, they're probably fudging dice rolls in favor of the players too right?

Easier said than done. For an NPC to reliably take down the wizard's defenses, she's got to be as good a spellcaster as the wizard himself. This means she's also likely a "boss;" either the BBEG or one of her lieutenants. Not only that, if/when you make a habit of disabling the wizard's defenses, the wizard starts taking character options that make his defenses harder to break.

I just listed two of the simplest defenses, though. There are dozens more. Some can't be dispelled. You simply can't do much if you attack a wizard who then interrupts your attack by disappearing 10' away with Abrupt Jaunt. It's not like you can choose to follow him. You already tried to attack.

[Psyren]

What book do I need to find to look up Incantrix? It seems to be the key piece of "Wizards beat even warblades in swordfights" build, and so useful to brow beat DMs into allowing Tome of Battle.

Er... Is that what this is about? Making a tricked out melee wizard so that your DM realizes that "warblades aren't so bad after all?"

[Big Fau]

Because I'm trying to avoid having the class take ANY "Fightery" classes... and any castery stuff that isnt directly comparable to the fighter goes in an "Extra stuff" category.

Most people approach the "Wizards are better than fighters" with being more wizardy- I'm trying to make a caster who is DIRECTLY comparable to the fighter.

The term you are looking for is "Buffbot". The answer is Wyrm Wizard/Recaster to pick up Divine Power and Focused Specialist (Transmutation). A single casting of Divine Power followed up with Polymorph means GG, and a simple Alter Self means you can be a "Fighter" from level 3 onwards (level 1 with Precocious Apprentice trickery).

[Rakaydos]

Er... Is that what this is about? Making a tricked out melee wizard so that your DM realizes that "warblades aren't so bad after all?"

Nah, my group plays Edge of Empire, Rogue Trader, and Ironclaw. This is entirly for my own gratification.

[Vogonjeltz]

Easier said than done. For an NPC to reliably take down the wizard's defenses, she's got to be as good a spellcaster as the wizard himself. This means she's also likely a "boss;" either the BBEG or one of her lieutenants. Not only that, if/when you make a habit of disabling the wizard's defenses, the wizard starts taking character options that make his defenses harder to break.

I just listed two of the simplest defenses, though. There are dozens more. Some can't be dispelled. You simply can't do much if you attack a wizard who then interrupts your attack by disappearing 10' away with Abrupt Jaunt. It's not like you can choose to follow him. You already tried to attack.

An equal level spell caster represents exactly the kind of encounter a party is likely to encounter 4 times per day.

Abrupt Jaunt does nothing for mimicking a Fighter, and it most certainly doesn't interrupt attacks. If the attack happened, you've been hit, if you jaunt, the attack didn't happen. Nothing in that specialist ACF applies some reality revision or time travel effect.

[Talya]

An equal level spell caster represents exactly the kind of encounter a party is likely to encounter 4 times per day.

No, If you're fighting an even CR spellcaster - that spellcaster IS your encounter. There's no need for a tank, he's not going to be attacking you in melee. You're far more likely to be in this situation against group of varied enemies 4 levels lower than your party, numerous enough to equal the CR of the party. A single spellcaster equal level to the party? If he spends a round casting "Dispel Magic", well, he's dead that same round. His only action should be to flee. Besides, that caster has no melee capabilities with which to damage you after he wastes his turn taking down your defenses.

Worse yet, what if you're fighting a monster? Let's take the always-terrifying dragon? The dragon's melee attacks are devastating - a fighter can't even hope to stand toe-to-toe with a dragon, but the dragon can't hit the wizard with them. Worse yet, an even CR dragon has almost no chance at all of dispelling the wizard's buffs.



Abrupt Jaunt does nothing for mimicking a Fighter, and it most certainly doesn't interrupt attacks. If the attack happened, you've been hit, if you jaunt, the attack didn't happen. Nothing in that specialist ACF applies some reality revision or time travel effect.


It's an immediate action. Immediate action happen concurrent to the effect they are interrupting. More correctly, you can make them happen at any point you want. You can take your abrupt jaunt after a searing ray leaves the caster's square before it reaches you, causing it to miss. You can take your abrupt jaunt a millisecond before the greatsword cleaves through the square you were occupying moments before.

If you abrupt jaunt away from an attack, that attack took place, and missed.

[holywhippet]

Hmm.

Human cloistered cleric
Domains: time, planning, knowledge

Feats:

H. Extra turning
1. DMM
1C. Knowledge Devotion
1C. Extend Spell (from Planning domain)
1C. Improved initiative (from Time domain)
2W. Scribe Scroll
3. Persist Spell

At level 7 you can cast Divine Power. Then you're golden. Additionally, Time is a strong domain, with access to Haste at spell level 3 and Contingency at 6 among others.

Try to trade out Planning for a Devotion feat. I don't know if there is one attached to that school, so you may have to make it up. The spell list is kind of weak.

You can skip extra turning and just manufacture a heap of nightsticks (from Libris Mortis) then DMM persist even more buffing spells. Chances are you DM might begin throwing books at you at some point.

[Urpriest]

An equal level spell caster represents exactly the kind of encounter a party is likely to encounter 4 times per day.


No, most encounters will be with more than one enemy, for action economy reasons. You'd be fighting four level-4 casters, not one equal-level caster.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

From an earlier thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242928):


Gray Elf or Fire Elf, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 2/ Incantatrix 5/ IotSV 2 starting out. Max IotSV and then get more Incantatrix. If the game goes epic you just want to take Epic Incantatrix, Google can track it down for you.

Prohibited schools are Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy. I wouldn't use the Focused Specialist variant (CM) as you don't really want a fourth prohibited school. Use the Abrupt Jaunt ACF (PH2) and the Elf Wizard 3 racial substitution level (RotW). Subtract 3,000 gp from your starting funds and include in your backstory that you were trapped in the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel for long enough to gain Iron Will without spending a feat on it. Take two flaws: Weak-Willed and Noncombatant. Take two traits: Passionate and Slow.

Feats should be Improved Initiative (Wizard 1 bonus), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1), Extend Spell (flaw), Spell Focus: Abjuration (flaw), Item Familiar (3), Skill Focus: Spellcraft (Master Specialist 1 bonus), Persistent Spell (Incantatrix 1 bonus), Obtain Familiar (CA, 6), Fell Drain Spell (LM, Incantatrix 4 bonus), Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration (9), and Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV, 12). Future feats should include Quicken Spell and maybe Chain Spell (CA).

Your familiar via Obtain Familiar is a Hummingbird, it uses the stats fora Thrush in the DMG and it gives a +4 bonus to Initiative, it's detailed in Dragon magazine 323. Your Elf Wizard 3 substitution level doubles that bonus, so it will give you +8 initiative instead.

You should start out Middle Age, put all three of your level up points into Int, and start with Int 18. Str, Wis, and Cha are your dump stats, you want a decent Dex and as high a Con score as possible.

Your Item Familiar should start as a Circlet of Intellect +2, for which you pay the full price of 4,000 gp. You can then upgrade it to be a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with a +6 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence, for a cost of 23,500 gp and 1,880 XP. Keep in mind that the Item Familiar gives you a 10% bonus to XP, so you can use Permanency on Arcane Sight, Tongues, See Invisibility, and Read Magic and still start with more XP than the rest of your party. You should always invest enough skill points into your Item Familiar for it to grant a bonus to Spellcraft equal to your max ranks, which considering your Int 30, +3 for Skill Focus and a +2 Synergy bonus, you'll be able to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your current highest level spells by taking ten on the check at any given level. You should wear a scarf or bandanna on your head over your circlet, so opponents will have neither line of sight nor line of effect and cannot sunder, disarm, or slight of hand it. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is considered a construct, and constructs remain functional in antimagic and dead magic areas and cannot be dispelled or disjoined like normal magic items, so there should be almost no risk of it getting lost or destroyed.

You can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. Some may say that Cooperative Metamagic can't be used on your own spells due to the types of actions it takes, but action types only exist in combat during initiative so as long as you're not in combat you can take as long as you want doing it and it works fine. I'm sure there's a complete list of persistable buffs online, but a few must-have choices are as follows: Swift Expeditious Retreat, Shield, Swift Fly, Displacement, Magic Circle against Evil, Ray Deflection, Greater Invisibility, and Dragonsight. You should also include Antimagic Field among your persistent spells, and use Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude yourself and your party members and familiar/companions from its effect. Per Rules Compendium an AMF does not block line of effect for spells or magic effects, so everyone can still be hit by spells from outside the AMF as though it wasn't there. However, any opponents within 10 ft. of you won't be able to cast or use supernatural or spell-like abilities, and they won't have any spell buffs or magic items active, so it should be well worth it. Other all-day buffs should include Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire (CM), Greater/Superior Resistance depending on what level spell slot you want to spend, Greater Mage Armor or even Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) if you're good-aligned, Greater Magic Weapon on your party members' weapons, etc. Note that you can use a (Lesser) Metamagic Rod of Extend on most of those, so the hour/level buffs last 24 hours and the 24 hour buffs can be continually active on two characters for one spell slot each day. Later on Mind Blank is absolutely necessary. You can also use Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Contingency and have something like Ironguard on it.

Do the Shrink Item Tin Foil Hat trick to avoid opponents' AMFs. The Google should help you figure that one out.

Other items should definitely include a Necklace of Adaptation, preferably with an Enhancement bonus to Constitution added on, a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CM), a Ring of Freedom of Movement, a Third Eye: Clarity (MIC), and metamagic rods.

After you've buffed yourself each day, and shared all those buffs with your hummingbird familiar, you should use your remaining uses of Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic on as many Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) spells as possible, and share each of those with your familiar as well. Every round, you and your familiar will each be able to fire that many daggers without any effort at all, and each dagger that damages an opponent will deal a negative level. Note that due to your ESA AMF your equipment and spells will be excluded from the area of the AMF. Also keep in mind that opponents standing in the AMF will have their equipment rendered nonmagical, so even when their weapons are striking you they won't be magical weapons at the time and something like Ironguard or Starmantle (BoED) should protect you.

Use Spellcraft every time an opponent casts a spell, it doesn't take any action to do and you can look up what the spell does before you decide what to react with, because that's knowledge your character will have. Your Ray Deflection spell will automatically block any ranged touch attacks, your Greater Invisibility should prevent you from being targeted by most attacks and spells, your Displacement will help you avoid attacks from opponents who can see invis, you can fly all day long, summoned creatures and nongood extraplanar creatures will be kept at bay by your Magic Circle, and your IotSV Veils can be used to stop anything else that gets thrown at you. Against opponents who have obvious magical abilities (Beholders, Dragons, anyone with a spell component pouch or divine focus) you should move in to get them in your AMF as quickly as possible, and probably use a spell like Web or Black Tentacles to trap them in it while your daggers obliterate them. Don't forget you can use the Circlet of Rapid Casting for a swift-action Web or Glitterdust when necessary.

Check out a few Batman Wizard guides, and good luck!Kill things with daggers. Be unkillable. If you don't like the fact that he's using ranged attacks, switch out the cloud of knives stuff for melee gish shenanigans like Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon, turn into a War Troll), Bite of the Werebear (Spell Compendium, take the highest level Bite of the X you can), AC-boosting buffs, and Greater Mighty Wallop on a bludgeoning weapon.

Defend yourself with standard buffs like Greater Invisibility, Greater Blinking (Spell Compendium), Heart of X spells, et cetera. Then protect yourself against dispel magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69571), and you're done. I don't really think you need Divine Power.

[Vogonjeltz]

No, a group of varied enemies a couple levels lower than your party, numerous enough to equal the CR of the party is the group you're likely to encounter 4 times a day. A single spellcaster equal level to the party? If he spends a round casting "Dispel Magic", well, he's dead that same round. His only action should be to flee. Besides, that caster has no melee capabilities with which to damage you after he wastes his turn taking down your defenses.

I split this up by paragraph as they seem to be distinct issues: I agree there can be variance in enemies, however a single caster of the party CR is representative of 1/4 of encounters per day. Emphasis on representative. And, depending on the level of the caster this can be a serious threat. Imagine, for example, a caster who is, like our hypothetical warrior-emulating caster, buffed to be difficult to harm. They can then spend standard actions dispelling (although there are ways to dispel faster), removing the buffs of the PC caster.

I would caveat here that it doesn't necessarily matter if the enemy caster only removes PC buffs once every 4 casts, if it happens and the caster loses multiple buffs, that can be crippling, hindering any future encounters.


It's an immediate action. Immediate action happen concurrent to the effect they are interrupting. More correctly, you can make them happen at any point you want. You can take your abrupt jaunt after a searing ray leaves the caster's square before it reaches you, causing it to miss. You can take your abrupt jaunt a millisecond before the greatsword cleaves through the square you were occupying moments before.

If you abrupt jaunt away from an attack, that attack took place, and missed.

An immediate action may be used anytime, nothing in the ability entry says it causes the enemy to expend an attack.

[Zanos]

Even if it doesn't cause the attack to be expended(which i am iffy on), the attacker can no longer move, because he would have had to end his move action or charge to make an attack, and has no movement left.

He could, arguably, still take a standard action.

[Vogonjeltz]

Even if it doesn't cause the attack to be expended(which i am iffy on), the attacker can no longer move, because he would have had to end his move action or charge to make an attack, and has no movement left.

He could, arguably, still take a standard action.

How is that iffy? Where does the text say the attack is expended?
This might be true if the opponent isn't using ranged attacks, or didn't feint (making the Conjuror flatfooted, and thus incapable of using an immediate action), or the Conjuror didn't burn a swift or immediate action on their turn. Assuming all those conditions are met, and the enemy has no standard action remaining and no ability to engage in ranged attacks. Then, yes that ability could stymie an enemy for Int mod times a day.

[Urpriest]

How is that iffy? Where does the text say the attack is expended?
This might be true if the opponent isn't using ranged attacks, or didn't feint (making the Conjuror flatfooted, and thus incapable of using an immediate action), or the Conjuror didn't burn a swift or immediate action on their turn. Assuming all those conditions are met, and the enemy has no standard action remaining and no ability to engage in ranged attacks. Then, yes that ability could stymie an enemy for Int mod times a day.

The enemy was unlikely to have feinted since there are few builds that can take proper advantage of feinting, unlikely to use ranged attacks since this is a comparison of Fighter and Wizard durability and they are both equally likely to be targeted by ranged attacks in any role so that's not the topic of discussion, and using an immediate off-turn burns your next turn's swift, not your last one.

[Thanatosia]

Are you allowed to use the oft-ignored rules that Sorcerers may learn spells that are normally only divine?
What? There is no such rule. The rule you quoted about them being able to learn spells off their normal spell list is so that they could learn custom crafted or campaign specific arcane spells that don't appear on the existing printed Spell Lists - it's not there to give them carte blanche access to divine magic or to cherry pick spells from any class they want.

I suppose you could twist it to just give them Divine spells if your DM is ok with it (ANYTHING is OK if DM and players agree on it - it's your campagin- you can give all players unlimted wishes as a free action if it floats your boats, but don't go pretending it's part of the normal game rules), but if the intent was to let them learn Divine magic off other class's existing spell lists, they would have just said so - under your interpretation there's no reason to even have a Wizard/Sorceror spell list - every spell is a sorceror spell!

[Anlashok]

What? There is no such rule. The rule you quoted about them being able to learn spells off their normal spell list is so that they could learn custom crafted or campaign specific arcane spells that don't appear on the normal Spell Lists - it's not there to give them carte blanche access to divine magic.

I suppose you could twist it to just give them Divine spells if your DM is ok with it, but if the intent was to let them learn Divine magic off other class's existing spell lists

I'm not sure why you're talking about "twisting" the definition when your interpretation is explicitly not what the text says and his is simply reading the RAW straight.


but if the intent was to let them learn Divine magic off other class's existing spell lists, they would have just said so - under your interpretation there's no reason to even have a Wizard/Sorceror spell list - every spell is a sorceror spell!
That's not true. That section mentions "understanding by study", which is different than normal sorcerer spells which have no such caveat.

[Thanatosia]

I'm not sure why you're talking about "twisting" the definition when your interpretation is explicitly not what the text says and his is simply reading the RAW straight.
I guess by a strict literal interpretation outside of any context of common sense you are right, that line means there is no such thing as a Sorceror spell ist - EVERYTHING is a sorceror spell.

Or you could try to appy common sense and realize it's there so it's ok for Sorcerors to learn Custom magic spells that don't appear on the printed spell list in the PHB.

[Thanatosia]

That's not true. That section mentions "understanding by study", which is different than normal sorcerer spells which have no such caveat.
Given that there are no mechanics for 'understanding by study', that means nothing, you can just claim you're studying any spell you want to know..... your interpretation just opens up all class spell lists for sorcerors, which i'm 99.9% sure is not the intent behind the rule.

I'm pretty confident that it's there so if Say Wizard Heironius designs a custom arcane spell "Heironius's Magnificent Hound", and a Sorceror finds a spellbook or scroll with said arcane spell, he'd have the ability to learn it (understand by study) and take it as one of his sorceror spells even tho "heironius's Magnificent Hound" is not on any existing Sorceror/Wizard spell list. It's not there to just eliminate all lines between class spell lists or ignore the divide between Arcane and Divine magic.

Anyhow, this is kind of a tangent/derail of the intent of the thread, and we should probably take any futher debate on that rule to another thread.

[Anlashok]

I guess by a strict literal interpretation outside of any context of common sense you are right, that line means there is no such thing as a Sorceror spell ist - EVERYTHING is a sorceror spell.

Or you could try to appy common sense and realize it's there so it's ok for Sorcerors to learn Custom magic spells that don't appear on the printed spell list in the PHB.
Except "common sense" then tells us that if a sorcerer is meant to learn a custom spell, they'd add the sorcerer tag to that spell. Which means that calling out that Sorcerers can learn spells not on the Sorcerer list does, in fact, mean what it says it means. Not what Thanatosia arbitrarily deems it to mean based on personal fiat.


Given that there are no mechanics for 'understanding by study', that means nothing, you can just claim you're studying any spell you want to know..... your interpretation just opens up all class spell lists for sorcerors, which i'm 99.9% sure is not the intent behind the rule.
Well presumably it means that they have access to it in some way (a friendly caster willing to share it, a wand or scroll perhaps?). Probably leans very heavily on DM fiat but it doesn't change what the spell says.

Though that's not entirely true. Wizards can study and add spells from other sources to their spellbooks , so it's not an unprecedented concept.

[Talya]

There is a subtle but important distinction between the sorcerer's spell selection flexibility and the wizard's rigid list. There is an even bigger difference between this and a house rule.

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." This is important. Primarily. A sorcerer's spells known should be almost entirely from the sorcerer spell list. The sorcerer does not get to cherry-pick alternate spell lists at will. However, it does leave the option open for the occasional spell -- ANY spell -- not on the sorcerer list: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

You have to remember that D&D is not a solo game. It is not meant to be played without a DM. A DM is required for adjudication. This does not make it a house rule, nor is it rule 0. This is a clear case of it being "a judgement call." The game rules clearly recommend giving the sorcerer a certain flexibility here, but not carte blanche.

[Rakaydos]

Hmm... As the person sponsoring this particular build challange (and thus, effective GM) My ruling is that, like "psionics is different", a Sorcerer who studies a form of magic that is not on the wizard list, can learn an arcane varient at a spell level 1 higher than the original spell.

I make no claim that this interpretation may hold for other GMs, but that's what this build is using, because I say so. Arguing the RAW belongs in the other thread.

[Talya]

Hmm... As the person sponsoring this particular build challange (and thus, effective GM) My ruling is that, like "psionics is different", a Sorcerer who studies a form of magic that is not on the wizard list, can learn an arcane varient at a spell level 1 higher than the original spell.

I make no claim that this interpretation may hold for other GMs, but that's what this build is using, because I say so. Arguing the RAW belongs in the other thread.

The RAW is unspecific, anyway. It's left up to DM interpretation, so yours is as good as any.

[Zanos]

What? There is no such rule. The rule you quoted about them being able to learn spells off their normal spell list is so that they could learn custom crafted or campaign specific arcane spells that don't appear on the existing printed Spell Lists - it's not there to give them carte blanche access to divine magic or to cherry pick spells from any class they want.

I suppose you could twist it to just give them Divine spells if your DM is ok with it (ANYTHING is OK if DM and players agree on it - it's your campagin- you can give all players unlimted wishes as a free action if it floats your boats, but don't go pretending it's part of the normal game rules), but if the intent was to let them learn Divine magic off other class's existing spell lists, they would have just said so - under your interpretation there's no reason to even have a Wizard/Sorceror spell list - every spell is a sorceror spell!
While I don't agree that Sorcerers should have free access to any spell list, there is precedent among Dragons, who cast as sorcerers, having access to several divine domains and casting those spells as arcane spells.

Obviously that exact wording of the sorcerer clause, if you choose to invoke it at all, needs DM adjudication. Saying that they can learn spells similarly to dragons is not unreasonable though, since that was the one of the original origins of sorcerers power.

[Vogonjeltz]

The enemy was unlikely to have feinted since there are few builds that can take proper advantage of feinting, unlikely to use ranged attacks since this is a comparison of Fighter and Wizard durability and they are both equally likely to be targeted by ranged attacks in any role so that's not the topic of discussion, and using an immediate off-turn burns your next turn's swift, not your last one.

If the wizard is jaunting he's still vulnerable to ranged attacks. And more importantly he's in the position of having to move to fill the warrior role of melee damage.