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View Full Version : Help Requested: Bardsader with mediocre rolls



genericwit
2014-03-12, 09:53 PM
So, for an upcoming Red Hand of Doom game I'm gonna be playing in, I was on the fence between a DMM persist Ruby Knight Vindicator (lockdown based) and a Bard/Crusader (buffing/healing/tactical support), until I found out that there would be no flaws allowed, and rolled... well, nothing bad, but nothing that shines: 11, 12, 13, 13, 13, 15. So I don't really have enough feats, or the right rolls, to set up the RKV, but I can still be somewhat useful with the Bardsader (though, again, not really enough to get some good combat feats and set up Dragonfire Inspiration or the rolls for Words of Creation). Really, I'm looking for some help with this build, though.

We're starting at level 5, so here's what I'm thinking:

Human Bard (silverbrow?) 4/Crusader +Xor Human (silverbrow?) Bard 3/Dragonfire Adept 1/Crusader +X

Str 15
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 11
Cha 13

Bard 4 nets an extra use of Inspire Courage per day, but I won't get level two spells (I can't pull the 14 Cha), whereas the Dragonfire Adept nets important save boosts, slightly better hit die, and +6 to all knowledge skills and the ability to count knowledge skills as trained (meaning I can focus on a few prevalent skills and, with collector of stories, use the rest untrained at +12 for monster id and +7 for the other stuff).

Feats:
1 Power Attack
1 Knowledge Devotion
3 Song of the Heart
(6) Song of the White Raven
(9) ???
(12) ???

Some other feats I'm considering are, later on, Dragonfire inspiration (if I go Silverbrow Human) and Lingering Song, or maybe Martial Study or Extra Granted Maneuver; if DM allows ability items to count for feats, I might nab Words of Creation.

Maneuvers I'm considering:
5 Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, Tactical Strike, Battle Leader's Charge
7 White Raven's Tactics
8 Replace Crusader's Strike with Revitalizing Strike
9 White Raven Strike
10 Replace:Battle Leader's Charge with Divine Surge
11 Flanking Maneuver
12 Replace: Vanguard's Strike with Radiant Charge

Stances I'm considering:
5 Martial Spirit
6 Leading the Charge
12 Tactics of the Wolf or Press the Advantage

Skills wise, I'll probably max Diplomacy, Bluff, a few Knowledge skills, Perform (singing), and the requisite 5 or so in tumble/balance/jump, maybe climb.

As far as Bard spells, I'm probably gonna try for heavy armor, so I don't know if I'll even really be able to use them, but if I can somehow get armored casting or get the DM to allow me to use spells in armor, I'll definitely pick up inspirational boost, and try to grab a badge of courage/vest of legends along the way.

Any other thoughts or tips would be greatly appreciated.

claypigeons
2014-03-13, 06:16 PM
Second level spells will be very good for you. Alter Self, Blur, Hold Person, etc are all great spells.

If your party is good, and you want to be Very Good, with the 15 in Cha you only need a Headband if Intellect to qualify for Words of Creationn. "Double the bonus" on Inspire Courage stacks after things like the Vest. Very good.

As for casting in armor... The Twilight enchantment is great. Thistledown padding reduces ASF. Mithral to reduce medium to light armor is also good.

Keld Denar
2014-03-13, 06:53 PM
I might have some other feedback later, but its worth noting that you can push Song of the White Raven back to level 9 without losing much. You don't get the +2 base bonus until level 8 on the first build or 9 on the second, so you aren't missing much.

I wouldn't do DFI. Without all of the stuff to change the flavor from [Fire] to something else, you are best off with the vanilla version in THIS particular case. That saves you a feat, at least.

genericwit
2014-03-15, 02:15 PM
So my DM allowed me to alter my stats a bit, so at level 5 they're going to be:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 14

and I think for feats I'm going to go:

1: Power Attack
1b: Knowledge Devotion (he ok'd that I'll have one rank shy of the requirement)
3: Song of the Heart
6: Extra Granted Maneuver or Travel Devotion
9: Song of the White Raven
12: and I still don't know what I'll take for this, or even if we'll make it this far. I've decided against Dragonfire inspiration (just won't have enough uses of IC unless the DM rules that Song of the White raven allows an increase in uses/day) and won't really be able to qualify for Words of Creation.

So now the dilemma I'm grappling with is whether to go Bard 3/Dragonfire Adept 1/Crusader X (for Draconic Knowledge to boost knowledge and Knowledge Devotion and better saves) or Bard 4/Crusader X (for one more daily use of Inspire Courage, one more BAB, and the ability to use alter self 1/day for either flight or a massive NA boost and another use of Inspirational Boost per day). Of course, I could just pick up a wand of Alter Self with the primary, and the BAB is made up for and more by Knowledge Devotion, since I'll probably be using strikes more than full attacks, so I'm leaning towards the former... But I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions or if there's anything I've overlooked. I know mobility is gonna be a bit of a problem for me, but that's one I can probably solve with items (wands, anklet of translocation, winged mask, etc).

Keld Denar
2014-03-15, 03:49 PM
If you do go with the DFA option, you might consider taking Entangling Exhalations. That gives you a powerful at-will debuff against opponents that reduces their AC and attacks. I know its another feat invested, but I think it's worth it.