Factotum Conversion

[Iolaus]

Ok so say I where to convert the Factotum to Pathfinder. I am looking at the class and I just cannot see why it does not have all good saved when the Monk does and the Factotum should have at least a feature to add Int to all saves or something or am I missing something?

[(Un)Inspired]

I think it literally gets that ability at first level. I believe its called cunning insight.

[Iolaus]

Yes it can for one inspiration point but my comment was, why the heck does it need to do that? Why not just give the class that can do anything have all good saves. Heck I would want full BAB for it too, but well can't have everything

[(Un)Inspired]

I don't know what to tell you buddy. You cant have it all I guess. I don't think the factotum actually needs full bab or constant int to all saves.

They can stack damage and attack pluses pretty well so missing that fourth attack from bab ain't no thing but a chicken wing.

As far as saves go, I think that getting to throw up your int as a defense as a free action is a pretty effective mechanic.

I think the best solution to your qualms might be multiclassing. Factotum multclass incredibly well. Taking 3, 5, 8, or 11 levels of facototum then finishing up with somehting else that loves in is a pretty awesome way to go.

Factotum/warblade is a classic combo that can give you great bab, the ability to replace all your saves with concentration checks, the ability to add you int to basically everything you can imagine (including the aforementioned concentration checks).

Factotum 8/warblade 12 gives you 8th level maneuvers and you can cunning surge for extra standard actions to make boatloads of strikes in one turn.

[Iolaus]

Very true

What should I do for the Dead Levels?
I was thinking maybe adding Skill focus as a class feature at 3 and ever three levels giving you them at 3, 6 (Dead Level), 9, 12, 15, and 18 (Dead Level)

[(Un)Inspired]

Hmmm I really don't think they NEED anything but if you were to throw them a bone then Skill Focus isn't a terrible gamebreaking thing to give them.

I wold really only give it to them at 6th and 18th however. Like:

At 6th level a factotum receives skill focus in a skill they have at least one skill rank in as a bonus feat. They get another bonus skill focus every 12 levels after that.

[Iolaus]

True but then it feels like a patch rather then a actual feature. The skill focus shows areas of the factotums study. To just patch holes we could do better.

[(Un)Inspired]

Maybe give them a lesser version of cunning surge at 6 and a slightly stronger version at 18?

Spend 6 Insp points to take an extra move action and then spend 14 Insp points to take an extra full round action at 18

[Hytheter]

I don't think Factotum really needs those dead levels filled, considering how good the class is to begin with.
But if you must, I've always thought the Factotum should (for thematic purposes less so than balance) have something similar to the Chameleon's floating bonus feat. Maybe give it that at 6th level, and a possible improvement at 18th. Maybe tie it to inspiration points somehow. Like maybe he has to spend inspiration to actually gain the feat's benefits? Maybe at 18th he can spend points to change the feat during the day for inspiration?

[jedipilot24]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272130

A Factotum handbook that also has suggestions for converting it to Pathfinder.

[Cloud]

The base saves and BAB I think are mostly fine, the class has very powerful features and their skill access is well...yeah. I make their will save 'medium' in my games, but lots of people don't use medium saves so moving on.

On the adding Intelligence to saving throws, while I think making that passive would be fine (Paladins have Divine Grace after all) probably worth mentioning that outside of combat you can just spend Inspiration Points whenever you need (a trap or whatever is an encounter). In combat adding them to saves might take you low, but Font of Inspiration helps with that. (I personally though ban that feat, but increase their base inspiration points to 5, and have it scale up to 19, it got a little boring seeing every Factotum take the same feat 3+ times, and within pathfinder where you get more feats it could actually get out of hand).

Cunning Surge really, like, really doesn't need to be stronger (you should probably actually clarify it can only be used once per round). If you want to fill in dead levels, you might want to look at making Cunning Strike actually worth using. I tend to make it scale from 1d6 up to 6d6, make spending the IP count for all attacks in the round, but of course remove the ability to spend multiple points on the same attack. This is particularly important because I don't believe pathfinder has Ijastsu Focus, which is normally a large source of damage to them. Opportunistic Piety is also fairly...meh, and you could easily give out more uses.

If you didn't like that idea, instead of just, moar numbers with skill focus, you could instead let Cunning Knowledge apply more than once per day to any one skill as they level up. They're also a good reflex save trap-finding class without evasion, so that's an ability you could probably get away with adding.

[Iolaus]

For cunning knowledge I was planning on making it useable times per day equal to the Int modifier of the Factotum.

As far as Cunning Strike I might have it scale with the Rogue's Sneak Attack, paying one Inspiration point per dice, or per two dice.

Also at 10 points per encounter you can only use Cunning surge once per encounter.

If I wanted to be more magic related
At 6th level, the factotum selects a number of cantrips equal to his Int modifier and can perform these cantrips an infinite number of times.

Or maybe at 6th level give him a floating feat, and at 18th give him a second floating feat.

Also for Opportunistic Piety have his Factotum level count for his Clric level for channeling positive or negative energy. The 3+Wis is a fine restriction

[Cloud]

...You might as well make Cunning Knowledge passive at that point, it's once per day PER skill, so you can use once for knowledge arcana, once for knowledge religion, etc. For many skills being able to pull out the big guns once per day is enough, but some skills it might be nice to be able to do that 2 or 3 times per day. More often than that you might as well just give the ability as a passive, which would be more than a little ridiculous unless you wanted to change it so the bonus didn't stack with ranks or something, which is just nerfing it and turning him into a bard.

Cunning Strike currently has no cap, it's just spend X inspiration points to gain Xd6 sneak attack, which simultaneously makes it stupid good at sniping people, and completely worthless in combat compared to Cunning Insight.

Floating feats are an awful idea on a class that has access to a large chunk of the wizard spell list, unless you're okay with a ton of crafting and/or metamagic abuse and then them just changing the feat while keeping their permanent effects. Heck technically as worded you could enter a stance or shape a soulmeld granted by a feat, and then changing the feat doesn't end the stance/remove the meld.

Cunning Surge is only 3 inspiration points, so as worded I can use it 3 times an encounter, in the first round, to end the encounter, with only 9 inspiration points (but I'll use the 10th for a spell thanks). However no Factotum ever has only 10 inspiration points at 20th level. No Factotum takes Font of Inspiration less than 3 times, many take it 4 times, and taking it 5 or more times isn't out of the question with flaws and/or pathfinder and/or feat abuse with chaos shuffle. Personally while completely ignoring flaws and chaos shuffle, a level of fighter and cleric with the right domains can go a long way to covering feats you need, for more Font of Inspiration.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

Edit: On Opportunist Piety, you'll have to change how it's worded I suppose for Pathfinder. The limited uses per day was more in note to how completely worthless the healing on the ability is for a standard action, or even out of combat over a day, but I guess maybe it's slightly better if you let them actually channel, which they can't unless you reword it.

[Ziegander]

I have a few major issues with the Factotum that, were I to work on converting it for Pathfinder, I would have to address:

1) The optimization ceiling is a respectably high Tier 3. Note that is the extreme high ceiling, as high as it can possibly go, and that's literally applying all of the stinkiest cheese you can imagine. Unfortunately, its optimization floor is very, very, very low. Like CW Samurai low. If not worse. If the class is supposed to function as a Tier 3 class, and I believe it should, then this needs to be fixed immediately. Simply existing in Pathfinder shuffles most if not all of the cheesy ceiling down a few pegs, so what I would really concentrate on is moving that floor up quite a bit.

2) Many of the Factotum's class features are poorly written. The rules for Inspiration points could use clarification on when you get them as well as when you recover them. The Cunning Strike feature is vaguely worded and using the most common interpretation is all but worthless. The Opportunistic Piety feature is a black hole for comprehension failure. These issues would need to be cleaned up.

3) Many of its class features seem to be powerful when, in fact, they are quite weak. Couple this with the fact that you're an Intelligence-focused, mostly-mundane character, this makes you arguably more MAD than a Monk or Paladin. Without inspiration, Intelligence doesn't do a whole lot for mundanes in combat, and even with inspiration, you will often get a lot less out of your Intelligence than you probably imagined.

[mucat]

Yes it can for one inspiration point but my comment was, why the heck does it need to do that? Why not just give the class that can do anything have all good saves. Heck I would want full BAB for it too, but well can't have everything
It sounds like you're confusing "the class that can do anything" with "the class that's best at everything." Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. Wouldn't your proposed version of the factotum be strictly superior to just about any non-primary-caster? If so, do you see that as a good thing?

[Bloodgruve]

For PF

*Cunning Surge should be defined as limited to once a turn as a Free Action.

*Inspiration should be as charted + INT modifier if FoI is not available as a feat. Limited to maximum bonus not exceeding class level.

*Cunning Strike should either match or come close to a Rogue SA for 1 Inspiration per attack roll.

*Inspiration should be defined as being reset when Initiative is rolled and given only if the combat is within x CR's of your class level. As not to 'attack that fly' and reset your initiative pool out of combat. This makes it more interesting when dealing with Cunning Knowledge outside of dungeon crawls. Or simply take the inspiration cost out of Cunning Knowledge and allow it once per day per skill.

*Skill Focus matches the flavor of the class. Maybe an Int boost of +1 or +2 at those levels instead?

IMHO

GL
Blood~

[Iolaus]

Good ideas all around.

You need to rewrite it as channeling works differently in Pathfinder.

As for the SA form Cunning Strike technically it says 1d6 per point spent. So if you spent 5 points you do 5d6. But I think at higher levels it should be Xd6 for 1 point to show off how good you are getting at it. So maybe at 8th level its 2d6 per point used, at 12 its 3 at 16 its 4 and at 20th its 5d6 per point spent.

Inspiration points with a +Int modifier should be the standard even with FoI as an available feat, it makes taking it multiple times less needed for higher levels.

Cunning Surge is 3 points sorry it was late when I read it so I mixed up the level 8 with how many points it costs. But once a round makes sense.

I argue its not nearly as MAD as all other scores can be average and benefit from a high INT, all skills, even attacks benefit.

Also seeing as how Combat Maneuver Bonus is calculated 10+Str+BAB wouldn't that make it a Strength check?

[Bloodgruve]

As for the SA form Cunning Strike technically it says 1d6 per point spent. So if you spent 5 points you do 5d6. But I think at higher levels it should be Xd6 for 1 point to show off how good you are getting at it. So maybe at 8th level its 2d6 per point used, at 12 its 3 at 16 its 4 and at 20th its 5d6 per point spent.

...

Also seeing as how Combat Maneuver Bonus is calculated 10+Str+BAB wouldn't that make it a Strength check?

Yea. PF Rogue progress 1d6 every other level. I'd suggest matching that or at least 1d6 every third level for progression. With 1 Inspiration per attack. This way the class has some better damage output potential. When Cunning Surge comes into play Inspiration points will be limited which will curb Cunning Strike usage a bit. You could burn a lot of Inspiration a round with dual wielding, iterative attacks and Cunning Surge. I feel this would be balanced.

...

In 3.5 AFAIK you didn't add Int to Attack or Damage rolls but you did for Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip, etc.. In keeping with that I'd allow Int to benefit CMB.

Blood~

[Ziegander]

I argue its not nearly as MAD as all other scores can be average and benefit from a high INT, all skills, even attacks benefit.

That's what conventional wisdom would tell you, but even if you take Font of Inspiration twice at 1st level by taking two flaws, using a 30pt buy, you can have the following scores:

Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8; and you'll have only 5 inspiration points. With those scores you'll have 10 hit points at first level (not too shabby, really), AC around 14 (or 16 with shield; not great), melee attack bonus of +0, ranged attack bonus of +1, Fort +2, Ref +3, and Will +0. Any given combat will last between 2-5 rounds, and each round you will be making an attack roll (because you have nothing else to do). If you want that attack to hit, you're going to spend 1 IP to bring your bonus up to +3 in melee or +4 at range (not the most promising). If you hit, which is less than 50% of the time, then to deal any appreciable damage you'll want to spend another IP so you can deal 1d8+3 damage with your longsword or 1d6+3 damage with your shortbow. You are still not measuring up to your other party members. You've got about a 50/50 shot of needing to make a save each round, depending on the encounter, and your save bonuses are pretty poor, so you'll want to spend IP to boost that roll too. In two rounds you'll spend anywhere between 2.5 and 5 inspiration points to poorly do what you're allies are already good at doing. If the encounter runs to 4 or 5 rounds you will have almost certainly run out of Inspiration points before then.

The fact that you have to boost your Int to do anything, and the fact that normally Int doesn't do anything of combat-import for non-casters, combine to cause you to struggle to be relevant because your numbers are all quite low compared to everyone else's. A Rogue could easily start with Dex 16 (or 18 because Rogues don't need that Human bonus feat) to have 1 lower (or the same) bonus to ranged attacks as the Factotum on all attacks all the time. Even when you burn two whole feats to increase your Inspiration points its easy to run out of them during an encounter, at which point you become practically useless. The Rogue could use those two flaws to pick up Point Blank and Precise Shot, meaning she is effectively far superior to the Factotum for making ranged attacks.

Cunning Insight is a competence bonus, so you can't even stack it with itself to get a large boost to attack/damage/saves when and if that would be useful.

The idea behind the Factotum was a good one, don't get me wrong, but the execution is really rather poor. While having a high Int can apply to all Str and Dex based skills and can apply to attacks, your argument is like saying a Paladin doesn't need high Strength because he can Smite Evil to add his Cha modifier to the attack roll and his class level to damage. It doesn't really work like that. A Factotum with Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 isn't going to be much good at anything (and even that's a 32pt buy).

[Iolaus]

Yes that is very true the Factotum is meant to be the ultimate in filling out a party with a specific fix just not as well as a class focused on that.

So I was thinking making it start with 5 points, adding INT modifier to it.

Granting the Brain over Brawn to apply to both Attack and Damage because you are using your intellect to know just were to strike on a target, its the very basis of Cunning Strike.

[Ziegander]

Yes that is very true the Factotum is meant to be the ultimate in filling out a party with a specific fix just not as well as a class focused on that.

So I was thinking making it start with 5 points, adding INT modifier to it.

Okay, but even if you've got 9 inspiration points at 1st level, which just feels to me like you're overcompensating for a weak class feature (just make the class feature stronger), if in no round you are ever as effective as any other party member at doing anything you do, even if you can do everything (which the Factotum really can't actually do at any level), I would call that the definition of underpowered. So 9 inspiration points means you can be inferior to your party members longer than a normal Factotum, and you don't normally have to worry about running out of IP and being altogether worthless, but you are still inferior to your other party members at everything you do.


Granting the Brain over Brawn to apply to both Attack and Damage because you are using your intellect to know just were to strike on a target, its the very basis of Cunning Strike.

I think this is a very misguided idea. Brains over Brawn, just as much as Cunning Surge, is a powerful, defining class feature of the Factotum. Allowing Int to attack and damage, at all times, is actually too powerful.

[Anlashok]

If you're worried about MAD you could just have Brains over Brawn apply to attacks too.

It's not like a lot of less experienced players don't accidentally do that anyways because they don't realize that even though attacks are strength-based checks they aren't actually strength based checks.


I think this is a very misguided idea. Brains over Brawn, just as much as Cunning Surge, is a powerful, defining class feature of the Factotum. Allowing Int to attack and damage, at all times, is actually too powerful.
You still have crappy BAB and are only middling T3 anyways.

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's what conventional wisdom would tell you, but even if you take Font of Inspiration twice at 1st level by taking two flaws, using a 30pt buy, you can have the following scores:

Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8; and you'll have only 5 inspiration points.

This point buy array... Concerns me. Why in the Nine Hells would you end both of your attack stats on pointless odd numbers? :smallconfused:

Like any mundane class, you will want to divide your focus into one of two things--STR focus (either melee attacks or thrown weapons with STR application) or DEX focus (either melee attacks or ranged weapons). For the sake of argument, I'll go with a DEX focus.

With a 30 point buy, I could buy into (with a DEX focus, mind): 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 18 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA. On a race with no relevant modifiers, that would be a +3 to-hit with a bow, which can optionally be increased to +7, which is higher than most full-BAB classes get at this level, simply by virtue of the fact that I am applying two key ability modifiers to my to-hit roll at a level when ability modifiers are basically the only thing that matters. But remember, this is Pathfinder: in Pathfinder, nothing has no relevant modifiers. I could choose to be a Human, and get the free +2 to INT, getting an extra +1 to my to-hit, damage, and/or saves as I see fit, or a free +2 to DEX, getting the extra +1 to my to-hit and Reflex saves always. Or, I could choose to be any of the races with optimal stat modifiers for this particular class and ability choice; in particular, Elves, Sylphs, Ratfolk, and Tieflings both get a +2 to both DEX and INT with a penalty to a dump stat (or CON), and are at least close to the average Race Point values of the base races (only Tiefling goes over). If I were, say, a Ratfolk, I would have a finishing array of 8 STR, 18 DEX, 14 CON, 20 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA. Additionally, I would be size: Small, conferring a +1 bonus to-hit and AC. Such a creature would, with leather armor and a bow, have a +5 to-hit at level 1, with the option of increasing their to-hit to +10 for an attack. Or adding 5 to the damage. That is not insignificant, considering that most competing daily resources (such as Rage, which operates on a rounds/day basis) don't give you as much, as often. Such a character would also have a base AC of 15 + (armor value), with the option at level 3 of adding INT against specific creatures, which is huge at a level where pawns miss a decent AC value, but Big Bads can take you out of a fight if you're not careful. I don't care that my Fort and Will saves are not significant, because I have the option of saving an Inspiration point for them just in case (so they could each be 5 higher than their actual values for when it really matters).

This didn't even take me a good deal of optimization to figure out; all it took was saying, "hmm, I'm going to use an INT-based class with a DEX-based primary attack... Maybe I should raise my INT and DEX first." What I ended up with was a character who is no more powerful than your characters (mind, I was using Pathfinder 30PB, because this is for a Pathfinder conversion), but significantly more competent at what he's supposed to do, and still well-rounded enough to do most of the other things (bearing in mind that a low STR can be justified by Brains Over Brawn picking up all the slack for your few STR-based abilities; low WIS can be justified by saving a point of Inspiration for crucial Will saves; and low CHA can be justified by the extra +3 you get to a skill just by it being a class skill, and all the skill points and bonuses you get to skills for Factotum anyway).

OP: If you want quick fixes for a Factotum conversion, here are a few tips:

1) For levels 6 and 18: the Factotum gains a bonus feat. If this doesn't reach your balance point properly, you can increase or decrease it as follows (mix and match as you deem appropriate):
- Increase: The feats act like the Chameleon's floating feats (Races of Destiny, p. 111-ish). Once per day, you can change the feat to another feat for which you qualify.
- Increase: You need not qualify for the feat as normal.
- Decrease: The feat comes from a limited list (such as combat feats only, or something of the sort). The degree to which this becomes a mitigating factor is based entirely on how limited the list is.
2) For favored class bonuses: a few options (key them to whichever races you'd like) to get you started:
- The factotum gains 1/6 of an inspiration point.
- Select one skill which you have at least 1 rank in. The factotum gains 1/3 of an extra use of cunning knowledge for that skill only.
- The factotum can target 1/6 of an additional creature with each use of the cunning defense.
- The factotum gains 1/5 of an extra daily use of opportunistic piety.
- The factotum gains 1/5 of an extra daily use of arcane dilettante.
- The factotum gains +1/2 to their CMD to resist bull rush, overrun, and trip checks.
3) For opportunistic piety: bring this to parity with the Pathfinder equivalents. I recommend using the channel energy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric#TOC-Channel-Energy-Su-) rules, scaled back to how they are for a Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) (where the Channel Energy use costs two uses of Lay On Hands, which is essentially the base ability of Opportunistic Piety anyway).
4) For brains over brawn: bring this to parity with the Pathfinder CMB and CMD system. You can do this a number of ways (with varying power levels, but not a tremendous amount of influence either way, in my opinion):
- Only apply it to the CMB and CMD of abilities that already used it in 3.5 (which would be bull rush, overrun, and trip). You might have to use your judgment to determine how to apply it to the new ones.
- The factotum can choose a number of combat maneuvers equal to their INT modifier, and apply their INT bonus to their CMB and CMD for each. In this case, I would allow bonuses to INT to equate to additional CMB and CMD choices, and possibly include a favored class option to increase the number of choices.
- The factotum gains their INT to all CMB and CMD checks instead of STR or DEX.
- The factotum gains their INT to all CMB and CMD checks in addition to STR or DEX.
5) For Font of Inspiration: port it over as-is.

The rest should work as intended: the Factotum is not a huge departure from how a lot of Pathfinder classes work already, except that its Inspiration system is per-encounter, whereas a lot of the resource pools in Pathfinder are per-day.

[Ziegander]

This point buy array... Concerns me. Why in the Nine Hells would you end both of your attack stats on pointless odd numbers? :smallconfused:

Like any mundane class, you will want to divide your focus into one of two things--STR focus (either melee attacks or thrown weapons with STR application) or DEX focus (either melee attacks or ranged weapons). For the sake of argument, I'll go with a DEX focus.

With a 30 point buy, I could buy into (with a DEX focus, mind): 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 18 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA.

I was talking about the Factotum as is, in D&D 3.5, not as it might be based on unknown changes to make it work in Pathfinder. Your stat-spread would be a 36pt buy in 3.5, well over the 30pt buy I was working with.


On a race with no relevant modifiers, that would be a +3 to-hit with a bow, which can optionally be increased to +7, which is higher than most full-BAB classes get at this level, simply by virtue of the fact that I am applying two key ability modifiers to my to-hit roll at a level when ability modifiers are basically the only thing that matters.

Sure, if you're working with a much higher point buy than your other party members and only for one attack, then yes. Otherwise, with a 36pt buy, in Pathfinder, it is trivially easy for a Fighter to have 20 Strength or Dexterity and so have a +6 bonus to hit, or for a Barbarian to have that 20 and then ramp up to 24 for a +8 bonus to hit.


What I ended up with was a character who is no more powerful than your characters (mind, I was using Pathfinder 30PB, because this is for a Pathfinder conversion), but significantly more competent at what he's supposed to do, and still well-rounded enough to do most of the other things (bearing in mind that a low STR can be justified by Brains Over Brawn picking up all the slack for your few STR-based abilities; low WIS can be justified by saving a point of Inspiration for crucial Will saves; and low CHA can be justified by the extra +3 you get to a skill just by it being a class skill, and all the skill points and bonuses you get to skills for Factotum anyway).

If you're going with Pathfinder, and simply directly porting the Factotum, 30pt buy is WAY over the line for what would fly at a normal table. 25pt buy is considered EPIC fantasy. You're not going to have ability scores that are that good. And even if you do, so do the other party members.

Let's say you're the 3rd level Factotum, playing in Pathfinder, that you keep mentioning. Without the Font of Inspiration feat, that gives you a whopping 3 inspiration points per encounter. Save a point of Inspiration? Really? You're going to be out of inspiration on your second turn. And the "extra +3" really doesn't matter. Cunning Knowledge is only once per day, and if you only put in the 1 skill point, then using it leaves you at +1 point higher than an average character for a single skill check. You don't get +3 for a skill being a class skill. You still have to put a rank into the skill to get that benefit.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I was talking about the Factotum as is, in D&D 3.5, not as it might be based on unknown changes to make it work in Pathfinder. Your stat-spread would be a 36pt buy in 3.5, well over the 30pt buy I was working with.

I had originally used a 32 PB, as you had in your latter array, which, frankly, perplexed me, because it was a... Strange use of the point buy, to say the least. The only difference was that my STR and CHA WIS were both 8--which had no bearing on any of my ability to do anything, since I was DEX-based and the sheer number of skills I had made up for everything else. That is because I spent much less on my higher-level skills anyway.


Sure, if you're working with a much higher point buy than your other party members and only for one attack, then yes. Otherwise, with a 36pt buy, in Pathfinder, it is trivially easy for a Fighter to have 20 Strength or Dexterity and so have a +6 bonus to hit, or for a Barbarian to have that 20 and then ramp up to 24 for a +8 bonus to hit.

I'm not using a 36PB in Pathfinder. If I was, the scores would be much higher.


If you're going with Pathfinder, and simply directly porting the Factotum, 30pt buy is WAY over the line for what would fly at a normal table. 25pt buy is considered EPIC fantasy. You're not going to have ability scores that are that good. And even if you do, so do the other party members.

For a 25PB, reduce the DEX by 2, but use the same array (so a Ratfolk would have 16 DEX and 20 INT). Ba-zoom.


Let's say you're the 3rd level Factotum, playing in Pathfinder, that you keep mentioning. Without the Font of Inspiration feat, that gives you a whopping 3 inspiration points per encounter. Save a point of Inspiration? Really? You're going to be out of inspiration on your second turn. And the "extra +3" really doesn't matter. Cunning Knowledge is only once per day, and if you only put in the 1 skill point, then using it leaves you at +1 point higher than an average character for a single skill check. You don't get +3 for a skill being a class skill. You still have to put a rank into the skill to get that benefit.

First: In Pathfinder, you get feats even more frequently than in 3.5. Why would you not spend them on Font of Inspiration?

Counting Profession and Craft as one skill (meaning you are taking one of each, and no more), and each Knowledge individually, there are 35 skills in Pathfinder. With 20 INT and two favored class bonuses invested in "+1 skill point", you can have one point in each and every skill by level three; or, you could simply choose not to invest points in any two of them (like, say, Craft and Profession, or perhaps Fly). Now, every skill has the +3 bonus, because every skill is a class skill. You can, of course, modify this as deemed necessary by simply not taking points in a skill you'll never use. Who cares? You have skill points to throw around.

[Iolaus]

Adding Int to Damage is not unheard of. Swashbuckler adds the same to damage at 3rd level.

Giving the Factotum 8+Int makes sense for the flavor of the class, I don't know why they keep this mentality that only Rogues should hold that slot or just about only rogues.

Knowledge Devotion really should be a free feat given to the Factotum to be honest or a class feature given its fluff.

But Adding Int to Str or Dex for Damage as a standing class feature wouldn't be all that powerful. It gives yet another reason to reduce MAD.

I agree the Factotum needs an overhaul. I think given that Orisens and Cantrips are Unlimited in PF the Factotum at level 1 should pick as many Cantrips from the Wis/Sorc Spell list as he has Int modifier. He can now use these cantrips as at will powers, at level 2 add an additional 2 and an additional 2 at 4th level. This would not be overpowered and give them some flavorful things to play around with.

As far as their arcana dilletant ability. Well at level 1 give them 1 first level spell and have them gain access to spell levels on the same progression as a Sorcerer. At 20th level he has access to 10 spells per day spanning the 9 spell levels all of which have to be selected at the beginning of the day. Maybe even have the IP cost of the spell increase by level so a lvl 9 cost 9 points for a class that is not a primary or secondary caster this investment would make sense.

Now giving the Factotum a Int to Hit as a IP cost sounds fine, be better yet if they could inspire their allies to do the same. Adding the Factotum's INT to 1 party member per point spents to hit roll. This allows the party to benefit and allows the Factotum to feel like he has a psuedo buffing power to feel at home.

Maybe even add his INT to an Aid Other roll would make him party friendly.

[Lonely Tylenol]

In order:


Adding Int to Damage is not unheard of. Swashbuckler adds the same to damage at 3rd level.

Yes, but do be careful at what level you give them INT to damage outright; it's pretty much the only good, unique feature of the Swashbuckler, whereas Factotum already comes packed with a little of everything.


Giving the Factotum 8+Int makes sense for the flavor of the class, I don't know why they keep this mentality that only Rogues should hold that slot or just about only rogues.

I don't disagree, but note that there are fewer skills in Pathfinder, so I don't know what the interaction for this would be like.


Knowledge Devotion really should be a free feat given to the Factotum to be honest or a class feature given its fluff.

If you port it over, add it to the bonus feat list? :smalltongue:


I agree the Factotum needs an overhaul. I think given that Orisens and Cantrips are Unlimited in PF the Factotum at level 1 should pick as many Cantrips from the Wis/Sorc Spell list as he has Int modifier. He can now use these cantrips as at will powers, at level 2 add an additional 2 and an additional 2 at 4th level. This would not be overpowered and give them some flavorful things to play around with.

This doesn't sound bad.


As far as their arcana dilletant ability. Well at level 1 give them 1 first level spell and have them gain access to spell levels on the same progression as a Sorcerer. At 20th level he has access to 10 spells per day spanning the 9 spell levels all of which have to be selected at the beginning of the day. Maybe even have the IP cost of the spell increase by level so a lvl 9 cost 9 points for a class that is not a primary or secondary caster this investment would make sense.

I don't know how I feel about giving 9ths as spell-like abilities to a class who can choose from any of the entire Sor/Wiz spell list at the beginning of the day without expending resources to get them. I would strongly suggest rethinking this one.


Now giving the Factotum a Int to Hit as a IP cost sounds fine, be better yet if they could inspire their allies to do the same. Adding the Factotum's INT to 1 party member per point spents to hit roll. This allows the party to benefit and allows the Factotum to feel like he has a psuedo buffing power to feel at home.

Maybe even add his INT to an Aid Other roll would make him party friendly.

These both sound like abilities that should be given to the Factotum as an opt-in thing. Have you considered writing a set of special abilities, analogous to the Magus Arcana or Discovery (of the Magus and Alchemist, respectively), with pick-and-choose options available for the Factotum?

[Ziegander]

I had originally used a 32 PB, as you had in your latter array, which, frankly, perplexed me, because it was a... Strange use of the point buy, to say the least.

Of course it seemed strange. I was trying to highlight the fact that, no, a Factotum built with the guideline, "all other scores can be average and benefit from a high INT," which is something Iolaus said, is not going to be of much use to a party. I said as much.


For a 25PB, reduce the DEX by 2, but use the same array (so a Ratfolk would have 16 DEX and 20 INT). Ba-zoom.

You're missing the point. Other classes will also have stats that are that good and will usually have class features that make them effective for every round of every encounter of every day (or at least most).


First: In Pathfinder, you get feats even more frequently than in 3.5. Why would you not spend them on Font of Inspiration?

Because I was operating under the assumption that FoI wasn't going to be available. The OP mentioned (or at the very least, I felt it was implied, I could be wrong) that being the case a few times already.


Counting Profession and Craft as one skill (meaning you are taking one of each, and no more), and each Knowledge individually, there are 35 skills in Pathfinder. With 20 INT and two favored class bonuses invested in "+1 skill point", you can have one point in each and every skill by level three; or, you could simply choose not to invest points in any two of them (like, say, Craft and Profession, or perhaps Fly). Now, every skill has the +3 bonus, because every skill is a class skill. You can, of course, modify this as deemed necessary by simply not taking points in a skill you'll never use. Who cares? You have skill points to throw around.

*sigh*

Great, you'll have +4 to all of the skills! Whoopie! Meanwhile, the Rogue's got +6 to 10 or more skills. Once per skill per day you can show the Rogue up with a bonus to a single check (a bonus that admittedly gets more impressive as you gain levels), but at the level you're talking about, the difference is a massive 1.


Adding Int to Damage is not unheard of. Swashbuckler adds the same to damage at 3rd level.

Giving the Factotum 8+Int makes sense for the flavor of the class, I don't know why they keep this mentality that only Rogues should hold that slot or just about only rogues.

Knowledge Devotion really should be a free feat given to the Factotum to be honest or a class feature given its fluff.

But Adding Int to Str or Dex for Damage as a standing class feature wouldn't be all that powerful. It gives yet another reason to reduce MAD.

I agree the Factotum needs an overhaul. I think given that Orisens and Cantrips are Unlimited in PF the Factotum at level 1 should pick as many Cantrips from the Wis/Sorc Spell list as he has Int modifier. He can now use these cantrips as at will powers, at level 2 add an additional 2 and an additional 2 at 4th level. This would not be overpowered and give them some flavorful things to play around with.

As far as their arcana dilletant ability. Well at level 1 give them 1 first level spell and have them gain access to spell levels on the same progression as a Sorcerer. At 20th level he has access to 10 spells per day spanning the 9 spell levels all of which have to be selected at the beginning of the day. Maybe even have the IP cost of the spell increase by level so a lvl 9 cost 9 points for a class that is not a primary or secondary caster this investment would make sense.

Now giving the Factotum a Int to Hit as a IP cost sounds fine, be better yet if they could inspire their allies to do the same. Adding the Factotum's INT to 1 party member per point spents to hit roll. This allows the party to benefit and allows the Factotum to feel like he has a psuedo buffing power to feel at home.

Maybe even add his INT to an Aid Other roll would make him party friendly.

Good luck with all of this.

[Anlashok]

Good luck with all of this.

What exactly is your position here? You seem to simultaneously be arguing that Factotums suck while at the same time balking at any suggested improvements or streamlinings as overpowered.

[Iolaus]

You may be right, 8th and 9th spells are pretty powerful and maybe shouldnt be something a dabbler would stumble upon.

So if I restricted it to the standard 7th level spells. Would the increased number of 10 over 8 make it too powerful?

As for the Opt in stuff I had considered making a list of things.

[Ziegander]

What exactly is your position here? You seem to simultaneously be arguing that Factotums suck while at the same time balking at any suggested improvements or streamlinings as overpowered.

Making an effective, mostly-mundane Jack-of-all-Trades class takes finesse. The application of a stylus and a scalpel, if you will. If Iolaus had his way, the Factotum would have full BAB, all good saves, a d10 HD, access to 9th level spells, 8 skill points per level, and a baseline of 25 or so inspiration points at 20th level. The changes he wants to make are more like throwing paint at a wall and hitting it with a sledgehammer in an effort to improves its aesthetics and function.

Yes, without contradicting myself, I am fully capable of making these two statements:

a) The Factotum, as presented in D&D 3.5, isn't a very well written class that has some serious problems that should be addressed.

as well as

b) Iolaus, you're doing it wrong.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Of course it seemed strange. I was trying to highlight the fact that, no, a Factotum built with the guideline, "all other scores can be average and benefit from a high INT," which is something Iolaus said, is not going to be of much use to a party. I said as much.



You're missing the point. Other classes will also have stats that are that good and will usually have class features that make them effective for every round of every encounter of every day (or at least most).

Which class features are these? Fighter feats don't make much out of any attributes. Paladins get one Smite per level, and one every five levels after. Barbarians get rounds of rage per day, and certainly not enough for every encounter of every day for several levels. Same goes for Bards and bardic music. All spellcasting classes get a pitiful number of spells that aren't cantrips or orisons at entry level. Pretty much all of these classes require scaling up through the first few levels to make them "effective for every round of every encounter of every day", and once you get past the first few levels... Well, that's true of the Factotum, too, Font or no.

In any case, I'd hate to make a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Bard, or any other class with an 18 in one stat, a 16 in another, and zero other positive modifiers, so obviously they aren't as good at throwing a single attribute in the fray as is implied.


Because I was operating under the assumption that FoI wasn't going to be available. The OP mentioned (or at the very least, I felt it was implied, I could be wrong) that being the case a few times already.

I want you to quote for me where this is. I CTRL+F'd zero mentions of "Font" by the OP, and one mention of "FoI", where he said that the Factotum should get INT mod to Inspiration points whether they get Font of Inspiration of not.


*sigh*

Great, you'll have +4 to all of the skills! Whoopie! Meanwhile, the Rogue's got +6 to 10 or more skills. Once per skill per day you can show the Rogue up with a bonus to a single check (a bonus that admittedly gets more impressive as you gain levels), but at the level you're talking about, the difference is a massive 1.

Correction: The Factotum has +4 to all of the skills, plus his ability modifiers (two of them for STR- and DEX-based skills), plus all other bonuses, plus cunning knowledge in his pocket. For the aforementioned Ratfolk, this equates to:

+8 to all the STR-based skills (of which there are two);
+12 to all the DEX-based skills (of which there are seven);
There are no CON-based skills;
+9 to all the INT-based skills (of which there are fourteen);
+4 to all the WIS-based skills (of which there are five); and
+3 to all the CHA-based skills (of which there are seven).

In addition, he has a +2 bonus to Craft (alchemy), Perception (the most important WIS-based skill), and Use Magic Device (the most important CHA-based skill) for being a Ratfolk. Plus whatever he gets from his items, and that +3, which is always in his pocket for one use of any skill.

Having hit that magic 1 point in every skill by level 3, he can then prioritize his skills, so that the important ones all scale up fully with level--in addition to the scaling bonus of cunning knowledge, as well as the attribute bonuses.

If you are going to demean me or belittle my argument, do it right and use the facts at hand. This was just sloppy and insulting.

[Ziegander]

Which class features are these? Fighter feats don't make much out of any attributes. Paladins get one Smite per level, and one every five levels after. Barbarians get rounds of rage per day, and certainly not enough for every encounter of every day for several levels. Same goes for Bards and bardic music. All spellcasting classes get a pitiful number of spells that aren't cantrips or orisons at entry level. Pretty much all of these classes require scaling up through the first few levels to make them "effective for every round of every encounter of every day", and once you get past the first few levels... Well, that's true of the Factotum, too, Font or no.

In any case, I'd hate to make a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Bard, or any other class with an 18 in one stat, a 16 in another, and zero other positive modifiers, so obviously they aren't as good at throwing a single attribute in the fray as is implied.

I feel like you're deliberately twisting my words or reading everything I write the wrong way. I guess I could've worded it differently, but I never said, all other classes will be effective in every encounter, and I didn't mean that either. The Fighter for the record can have the same or better attack bonus than the Factotum for his choice of melee or ranged attacks in every encounter. The Rogue can sneak attack to add more damage to his attacks than a Factotum can dream of (unless you're talking about that one alpha strike at the beginning of an encounter, after which the Factotum has no inspiration points left), even if she can't sneak attack every enemy.

I never said that Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, or Bards function better than a Factotum with one 18, one 16, and all 10s. Where are you getting this stuff (though a Barbarian certainly could, if only for a few levels)? The two bits you've quoted above were taken out of context and were each in response to something else. For example, when I said, "other classes will also have stats that are that good," I wasn't talking about the 10, 10, 10, 16, 18, 8 array, I was talking about the 30pt buy Factotum you threw up here. No, usually classes can't add two stats to their attack roll at 1st level, but a Barbarian doesn't need to. He's got 20 Str to start the game off and full BAB. A Fighter with weapon focus (a crappy feat, yes, but it's useful for mid-to-level PF feats as a prerequisite) literally has the same attack bonus as the Ratfolk Factotum you're talking about for every attack in every encounter all day.


I want you to quote for me where this is. I CTRL+F'd zero mentions of "Font" by the OP, and one mention of "FoI", where he said that the Factotum should get INT mod to Inspiration points whether they get Font of Inspiration of not.

You're getting unnecessarily hostile at this point, and I don't see the need for it. I said I thought it was implied by the OP, and I also said that I might be wrong. Reviewing what the OP has said in the thread, it seems I was.


Correction: The Factotum has +4 to all of the skills, plus his ability modifiers (two of them for STR- and DEX-based skills), plus all other bonuses, plus cunning knowledge in his pocket. For the aforementioned Ratfolk, this equates to:

I did forget Brains over Brawn, good point. You've handily demonstrated how the Factotum out skill-monkeys the Rogue. Now, how long does that ability hold any water? I'm very new to Pathfinder, so I'm unsure if they've done anything to change this, but it doesn't look like it: do skills actually matter much if at all in a high-level Pathfinder game? Because they don't in 3.5.

Meanwhile, once the Rogue's skills cease to be as important to the party as they once were, she's still got Sneak Attack for offense, and while it may not be as reliable as adding +6 or 7 to the damage roll of one attack, the damage it can deal far outstrips the Factotum's.

If anything you've made a very persuasive argument for why a Factotum shouldn't get 8+Int skill points per level, especially in Pathfinder.


If you are going to demean me or belittle my argument, do it right and use the facts at hand. This was just sloppy and insulting.

Again, you're taking the things I'm saying the wrong way. I'm not trying to demean or belittle you. What I'm getting at, if probably communicating it poorly, is that the things a Factotum is supposedly good at aren't really things that matter much after a few levels. Up to around 5th level, Factotums can be half decent, especially if you optimize for ranged combat and stealth and such. But once you're moving on to 10th level, a Factotum's sheer lack of offense and reliable defense begins to drag the class down into uselessness.

Even if you increase their inspiration points to the, er, point that they never run out of them no matter how many they spend per round, a Factotum's class features, aside from Brains over Brawn and Cunning Surge (and the brokenly worded Cunning Brilliance at 19th level), just aren't strong enough.