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Hzurr
2007-02-02, 11:53 AM
A while back, one of my players (I don't even remember who it was now), was thinking about a druid, and he asked me what would happen if a druid slept with his/her animal companion (or any other animal) while wild shaping. :smalleek: I didn't answer him, and I think I actually forbade him from playing a druid, so the subject was dropped.

About a week ago, a different friend was looking at the druid, and asked the same question (How I keep managing to hang around people who are this odd is beyond me), but this time I actually thought about it, and we came up with an interesting theory.

We decided that first off, whatever offspring came about, it would be unnatural, hated, most likely evil, and probably a wierd animal-humanoid hybrid. That's when we realized that we had stumbled across the cause of lycanthropy.

Seriously. I mean, the whole thing is kindof...wierd and disturbing, but I think we might be onto something...:smalltongue:

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 11:53 AM
Um... why? If the druid Wild Shapes into a bear, he is a bear. The offspring of a bear and a bear is... another bear.

MandibleBones
2007-02-02, 11:56 AM
And if that bear then has offspring with a Warforged, it's a Bear With Lasers!

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-02, 12:11 PM
maybe the offspring would be awakened animals.

Thomas
2007-02-02, 12:15 PM
Which of them is getting pregnant? The druid or the animal companion? If it's the animal companion, there's no issue I can see. The druid's an animal while wildshaped.

If it's the druid, there'd be problems, I suppose, unless the druid stays in the same animal form continuously until the offspring is born. If the druid changes shape... well, you need to decide on how polymorphing magic affects unborn children. I'd say they're considered a part of the mother until born, and therefore change right along with her. The pregnancy would be tracked in "% complete" (so X % of the term of whatever animal the druid is currently). The offspring is born in whichever form the druid is when childbirth begins, and is considered a normal creature of that type. (Or, alternatively, an innately magical creature of that type, possibly able to shift shapes between two or more creatures, or able to wildshape - at least potentially - at birth... maybe the child would automatically get 1 Druid level at a very young age).

Now, if a pregnant druid changes shape into an elemental...

squishycube
2007-02-02, 12:40 PM
maybe the offspring would be awakened animals.

I like this solution!

I think there are problems with the "the druid is a bear, the offspring is a bear" argument. The Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) class feature functions like Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) (Except as noted in the Wild Shape description, but that doesn't mention types or subtypes) which states:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form
The only exception is the Aquatic subtype.

Furthermore, even if the type and subtype would change, the druid would still not be just any animal, the druid has at least 3 int, which an animal can't normally have. (Although the druid's animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) is an exception to this; the rule that the animal companion is treated as a magical beast has been corrected in the errata (and in the d20 SRD). But I would treat offspring of an animal companion and another animal diferent than I would with normal animals.)

Assuming that you (the DM) use some form of genetics, it is not unreasonable to make the offspring Awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm).

Do keep in mind that this is not RAW at all, it entirely depends on how you want your game world to be.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 12:42 PM
Genetics has NO place in D&D.

Suzaku
2007-02-02, 12:45 PM
Just remember in Greek/Roman myth a female human sleeping with a bull creates a minotaur. Now in D&D how many did this occur oO?

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-02, 12:50 PM
This question was around like last year. I must admit that I've been thinking about that probably since 2nd Edition(granted, back then, it was simply wild-shaping, no companions, which adds another layer of complexity) Could probably count them as "Shifters". On the other hand, you could take a page out of Ranma. The child inherits traits of the animal, like +2 to a stat, or maybe +10' movespeed, dependant on the base.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-02, 12:52 PM
Make it a creature of the same type as the druid, but have it be Anthropomorphic.

squishycube
2007-02-02, 01:11 PM
Genetics has NO place in D&D.
If you want to be like that: Logic has no place in D&D.

But that would be nonsense, because D&D is whatever the DM wants it to be. That's why we don't play it on a computer, but with a person who can create the world just as she likes. So I said: if you want to use a form of genetics in your world, then I feel making the animal Awakened makes sense.

I'm just trying to contribute to this community, like the other people here. I don't come here to get bullied or whatever.

Telonius
2007-02-02, 01:14 PM
Oh boy. This is like asking what would happen if Kermit and Miss Piggy actually had kids. The cartoon-ish solution would be that the kids would be alternatingly Bear and Human, depending on the gender. Awakened Animals, or Eberron Shifters, might also be logical.


Just remember in Greek/Roman myth a female human sleeping with a bull creates a minotaur. Now in D&D how many did this occur oO?

So we finally have another explanation: A Druid Did It!

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 01:19 PM
If you want to be like that: Logic has no place in D&D.

But that would be nonsense, because D&D is whatever the DM wants it to be. That's why we don't play it on a computer, but with a person who can create the world just as she likes. So I said: if you want to use a form of genetics in your world, then I feel making the animal Awakened makes sense.

I'm just trying to contribute to this community, like the other people here. I don't come here to get bullied or whatever.

Who's bullying you?
Sure, you can do whatever you see fit, but you can't reasonably apply genetics as we know it, because nothing in D&D works that way.
The most genetics-appropriate solution would be that there can't be offspring, because the druid is a separate species (and Wild Shape doesn't change that; you keep your type) and therefore can't reproduce with the bear by default.

Hyrael
2007-02-02, 01:21 PM
REmember that south park episode with the election between a giant douche and a turd sandwich? remember when stan spent time in the PETA compound, and what he saw?

Yeah, you would get something like that.

How about Fullmetal Alchemist? Remeber Nina? And the stroy hughes told about the Talking Chimera Tucker created before? Im sure there are other examples, from other works of fiction, but this is what sprang to my mind.

in D&D, Only outsiders and dragons should have the ability to make stable, functioning hybrids between species. Everything else, winds up like that ostrich/human thing from south park.

Maxymiuk
2007-02-02, 01:23 PM
Just remember in Greek/Roman myth a female human sleeping with a bull creates a minotaur. Now in D&D how many did this occur oO?


Except that the Minotaur was a result of Poseidon's curse. Ha! My divine intervention beats your crossbreeding theories. :smallamused:

Leush
2007-02-02, 01:25 PM
Further along the line, what happens if a wizard sleeps with their familiar while sharing a shapechange? Neither of them is the animal of that type, both of them change back to whatever they were, so what do we get.

I like the druid-Lythanthropy theory. It's nice and rational, and goes along the minotaur line. It also answers why there are all those were-things running about.

Shatenjager
2007-02-02, 01:45 PM
If you want a quick and easy solution it is simply that Pig and Elephant DNA don't mix, or rather that the druid cannot actually conceive a child with an animal.

Hyrael
2007-02-02, 01:52 PM
If you want a quick and easy solution it is simply that Pig and Elephant DNA don't mix, or rather that the druid cannot actually conceive a child with an animal.
Yeah, but deformed hybrids are creepier.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-02, 02:24 PM
REmember that south park episode with the election between a giant douche and a turd sandwich? remember when stan spent time in the PETA compound, and what he saw?

Yeah, you would get something like that.

How about Fullmetal Alchemist? Remeber Nina? And the stroy hughes told about the Talking Chimera Tucker created before? Im sure there are other examples, from other works of fiction, but this is what sprang to my mind.

in D&D, Only outsiders and dragons should have the ability to make stable, functioning hybrids between species. Everything else, winds up like that ostrich/human thing from south park.

I had finally suppressed those mental images and you throw them back in my brain aarrrggghh :smalltongue:

General_Ghoul
2007-02-02, 02:27 PM
[quote=Telonius;1942889]Oh boy. This is like asking what would happen if Kermit and Miss Piggy actually had kids.


Of course its Gonzo, who went Back to the Future to make sure his parents got together.

Hyrael
2007-02-02, 02:49 PM
I had finally suppressed those mental images and you throw them back in my brain aarrrggghh :smalltongue:
Because I enjoy Tormenting people:

"it only ever spoke once. It said "I want to die." Apparently, it got it's wish, because after that, it stopped eating."

Sad, sad episode.

Gamebird
2007-02-02, 02:49 PM
Further along the line, what happens if a wizard sleeps with their familiar while sharing a shapechange? Neither of them is the animal of that type, both of them change back to whatever they were, so what do we get.

You get Treasure Type O and nothing else.

Suzaku
2007-02-02, 02:58 PM
Except that the Minotaur was a result of Poseidon's curse. Ha! My divine intervention beats your crossbreeding theories. :smallamused:

All it was a charm person to fall in love with the bull...

The_Werebear
2007-02-02, 05:11 PM
I agree, Hzuur you have just invented lycanthropy.

Congratulations.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-02, 05:17 PM
Genetics has NO place in D&D.

3.0 Monster Manual, page 29, carrion crawler entry, last line:


Like so many other hybrid monsters, the carrion crawler may well be the result of gentic experimentation.

Wonder why they removed THAT part from the 3.5 version...

Suzaku
2007-02-02, 05:18 PM
3.0 Monster Manual, page 29, carrion crawler entry, last line:



Wonder why they removed THAT part from the 3.5 version...
Because it has no part in being there?

oriong
2007-02-02, 05:44 PM
Who's bullying you?
Sure, you can do whatever you see fit, but you can't reasonably apply genetics as we know it, because nothing in D&D works that way.
The most genetics-appropriate solution would be that there can't be offspring, because the druid is a separate species (and Wild Shape doesn't change that; you keep your type) and therefore can't reproduce with the bear by default.


Come on now, this is being silly. 'Genetics have NO place in D&D."?

Genetics may have no place in D+D but heredity certainly does. Do you need to be shown the Half-Dragon? The Half-Fiend? The Half-Celestial? The numerous other bizzare mixings? Do you really think that Half-Dragons result from humans and dragons in their natural shape? Of course not.

D+D has always held to the idea that a creature's true nature will have an affect on the child of a pairing, no matter what shape the parents are in. Certainly it's reasonable to claim that a child of a human and an animal is not only possible but it would be more than just a normal example of it's parent species (awakened animal is a good one, a were-creature might be another.)

Thomas
2007-02-02, 06:23 PM
Actually, specific examples given of half-dragons have been presented, by WotC, as offspring of dragons unable to change their shape in any way. Make of that what you will...

Gamebird
2007-02-02, 06:26 PM
eh, I don't have half dragons in my game (at least not in any form the PCs would recognize). Makes no sense. And kobolds aren't related to dragons either. Half fiends and half celestials are the result of divine power, wishing the conception to be.

YMMV

Matthew
2007-02-02, 06:37 PM
The Kobold Dragon connection always seemed spurious to me, anyway.

The_Werebear
2007-02-02, 06:37 PM
Actually, specific examples given of half-dragons have been presented, by WotC, as offspring of dragons unable to change their shape in any way. Make of that what you will...

Don't dragons gain spells as sorcerers? Shapechange/Polymorph.

Thomas
2007-02-02, 07:16 PM
Specific dragons specifically unable (by virtue of age category, which limits their caster level) to change their shape (at least without acquiring and using expensive magic items which were never mentioned).

The point is, WotC's examples suggest that dragons don't need to use spells like polymorph to breed with other creatures and create half-dragons.

The_Werebear
2007-02-02, 07:34 PM
Very true.

Alright, point conceded.

oriong
2007-02-02, 11:34 PM
Interesting, although I think it's probably safe to say there are also dragons who have produced half-dragons when it would by physically impossible for them to breed with the humans in question, so it's probably safe to say that there's precedent for the idea that polymorphed dragons will still 'breed true' so to speak (in fact I'm pretty sure that's been stated somewhere before).

I just had a thought to, if a dragon can breed with a human, it can certainly breed with another dragon (either shapechanged or not) so you could get half-dragon dragons. Like a half-red white dragon : P

Thomas
2007-02-02, 11:39 PM
Well, I think the AD&D precedent certainly is that polymorphed dragons (silvers and golds mostly) are the ones involved in "causing" half-dragons. In 3rd edition, though, it was made a bit vague and general - it's something magical, possibly something about dragons themselves (who are quite magical; if their mere movement and their digestion are blatantly magical, why wouldn't their reproduction be?).

Ravyn
2007-02-03, 12:16 AM
That's as good a fluff-explanation for lycanthropy as I've seen, though I'm not sure it explains the bite-transmission.

I've only seen one game that actually details rules for shapeshifters mating with animals, and if I recall correctly the offspring would be beast-human hybrids if the 'shifter was in human form and his/her partner was an animal, or vice versa--and that the female needed to be of the proper size to bear such offspring. I think if the shapeshifter's type and the mate's matched, the result would be whatever both of them were. Though since we've got Types as opposed to physical shapes, it doesn't make as good a precedent as it could.

oriong
2007-02-03, 01:06 AM
A shifter (From eberron) of roughly the appropraite type might actually be the best possible human/animal crossbreed, since a were-creature would have a lot of 'baggage' that doesn't come from either parent (like the full moon effect, the infectious bite, and damage reduction)