Kids and Sorcery

[Shadowscale]

Wow, a lot of threads by me as late, but they're all game's I'm in and concedpts I'd like to try.

I was curious of how a certain trope would adapt to the d&d setting. Theoretically I've always been toying with the idea of playing a very young child sorcerer most likely with draconic blood in them for the powers to manifest so strongly and quickly. My theory is that young individuals have high reserves of untapped wild magic that more so controls them then the individual controls it.

Most articles and the like I've seen on playing characters younger than adult indicate that all stats except dexterity, and charisma are heavily rolled back. Charisma seems to however actually be a few points higher than even an adult character would posses.

My question is, would it be possible to build an effective toddler-age sorcerer if say a level of half dragon or the like way added?

(I know i have WAY too much time on my hands, but said is life.)

[docnessuno]

D&D 3.0 / 3.5 has no rules for younger characters that i'm aware of, but you might want to check the Young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) template from pathfinder. Note that it doesn't change metal stats.

[Shadowscale]

D&D 3.0 / 3.5 has no rules for younger characters that i'm aware of, but you might want to check the Young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) template from pathfinder. Note that it doesn't change metal stats.

I found one that seemed to each age step back decrease all stats except dexterity back where a young child netted a 5 increase to their charisma. It could just be third party though. More than anything just wondering if this concept is possible and how to go about doing it, cause uniqueness is fun.

[Melville's Book]

Toddler age? Maybe mechanically, but not logically. Until a person is about four and a half, they don't even realize that other people are capable of knowing, feeling, or believing anything they themselves don't know, feel, or believe. They haven't developed a theory of mind, so the idea that their Charisma is very high at all seems incredibly unlikely.

Charisma tends to not, however, be an issue for kids age 7 or so and up at all. I'd go with the heritage feats rather than Half-Dragon. Maybe a minor bloodline or something to explain their early power development. The concept can work. Also, make them Small-sized.

[Shadowscale]

Toddler age? Maybe mechanically, but not logically. Until a person is about four and a half, they don't even realize that other people are capable of knowing, feeling, or believing anything they themselves don't know, feel, or believe. They haven't developed a theory of mind, so the idea that their Charisma is very high at all seems incredibly unlikely.

Charisma tends to not, however, be an issue for kids age 7 or so and up at all. I'd go with the heritage feats rather than Half-Dragon. Maybe a minor bloodline or something to explain their early power development. The concept can work. Also, make them Small-sized.

I theorized that the intelligence of races like dragon would make them more aware at a younger age. Their is always awakening to be casts either way. i'll try to find these heritage feats. Would anyone be able to help me make this bloodline? It'd be much appreciated.

[Melville's Book]

Bloodline rules are in Unearthed Arcana. Heritage feats are in Complete Mage.

[Yanisa]

I found one that seemed to each age step back decrease all stats except dexterity back where a young child netted a 5 increase to their charisma. It could just be third party though. More than anything just wondering if this concept is possible and how to go about doing it, cause uniqueness is fun.

Like stated, there is no core rules for a child in 3.0 and 3.5. PF offers the young template and that is about it.

On the other side there is endless homebrew and third party to be found.. Except most people don't dabble with younger then 9... And even more rare are variants that gives a charisma bonus

To name a couple of ones that might interest you.

I found one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2383158&postcount=4), in the spoiler, with a charisma bonus. It's a different d20 set, also no toddlers.
DnDwiki has a homebrew (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Child_%283.5e_Template%29) that gives +2 charisma. It looks so so.
This one (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/katz/dnd/kids.html)is very in depth, but penalties rather then buffs, has a variant for using awaken n children to bump up mental stats.

I found tons more, so my advise is just google and find one fitting for you. There are no real rules within the normal game, so you will always end up in a homebrew dm agreement or a third party book.

[Telonius]

The thing about the trope is, in most cases, kids that young really aren't capable of controlling whatever powers they display. (In terms of D&D mechanics, they'd mostly be level-zero spells, level-1 at most). So yeah, Harry might be able to speak parseltongue and make a window disappear, but until he gets to Hogwarts and learns some discipline he's not going to be able to turn that sort of thing on or off at will. That control is modeled by taking a level in Sorcerer.

Sorcerer is one of the classes that has the lowest starting ages (For a human, 16 minimum, from the chart on p. 109 of the PHB). I would probably houserule a few years younger than that, if it fits the character concept; maybe 12 would be reasonable. But a toddler is in no way going to even realize they're casting spells, let alone control when they're using them.

[Shining Wrath]

You're not talking about a normal human child (or elven child), so you can make it abnormal as you want.

I had a player once who wanted a childlike mage, so we crafted a back story where she had been the result of experimentation by her grandfather, who was a renegade doppelganger and was trying for immortality. The result was that her mind advanced at a rate twice as fast as her body, so by age 9 she had the mentality of an 18 year old.

You can have something similar as a result of the bloodline - a silver dragon, for example, has Charisma of 14 at birth, and reaches 18 as a juvenile at age 26. Make the effect of a draconic bloodline be a +4 to Charisma at birth, and then another +2 every 5 years of age gained until maturity, so it stops at +10 at 15.

[Shadowscale]

Like stated, there is no core rules for a child in 3.0 and 3.5. PF offers the young template and that is about it.

On the other side there is endless homebrew and third party to be found.. Except most people don't dabble with younger then 9... And even more rare are variants that gives a charisma bonus

To name a couple of ones that might interest you.

I found one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2383158&postcount=4), in the spoiler, with a charisma bonus. It's a different d20 set, also no toddlers.
DnDwiki has a homebrew (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Child_%283.5e_Template%29) that gives +2 charisma. It looks so so.
This one (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/katz/dnd/kids.html)is very in depth, but penalties rather then buffs, has a variant for using awaken n children to bump up mental stats.

I found tons more, so my advise is just google and find one fitting for you. There are no real rules within the normal game, so you will always end up in a homebrew dm agreement or a third party book.
The young child one from the first link seems like it could be more than workable. Any chance someone could help me design a bloodline for this and point me in a good direction to make a semi valuable build of it?

You're not talking about a normal human child (or elven child), so you can make it abnormal as you want.

I had a player once who wanted a childlike mage, so we crafted a back story where she had been the result of experimentation by her grandfather, who was a renegade doppelganger and was trying for immortality. The result was that her mind advanced at a rate twice as fast as her body, so by age 9 she had the mentality of an 18 year old.

You can have something similar as a result of the bloodline - a silver dragon, for example, has Charisma of 14 at birth, and reaches 18 as a juvenile at age 26. Make the effect of a draconic bloodline be a +4 to Charisma at birth, and then another +2 every 5 years of age gained until maturity, so it stops at +10 at 15.
I like this idea I'll try to work something out of it. If anyone would like to contribute or have any other suggestions or ideas I'd really appreciate it.

[Shadowscale]

The thing about the trope is, in most cases, kids that young really aren't capable of controlling whatever powers they display. (In terms of D&D mechanics, they'd mostly be level-zero spells, level-1 at most). So yeah, Harry might be able to speak parseltongue and make a window disappear, but until he gets to Hogwarts and learns some discipline he's not going to be able to turn that sort of thing on or off at will. That control is modeled by taking a level in Sorcerer.

Sorcerer is one of the classes that has the lowest starting ages (For a human, 16 minimum, from the chart on p. 109 of the PHB). I would probably houserule a few years younger than that, if it fits the character concept; maybe 12 would be reasonable. But a toddler is in no way going to even realize they're casting spells, let alone control when they're using them.
I see your point, maybe toddler age is too young, probably around 10 or so would be more fitting, maybe I just need to modify the first level of sorcerer a little.

[BornValyrian]

For a human child, I've done it by refluffing a halfling, perhaps dropping some of the random +2 Listen bonuses or somesuch. For additional human-ness, use strongheart

[Honest Tiefling]

I believe some sources say that a sorcerer's blood shows itself in late puberty, so I would have a chat with your DM on that one. Personally, if it works with the fluff of the world I think it might be reasonable to say that some bloodlines might show up earlier then others, or something happened to the PC to make it show up earlier.

Also, make sure others are comfortable with it, as dragging a child along on a slaughterfest...Well, it can't be good for the child.

[HaikenEdge]

Unholy Scion? Seems like they're fully aware.

[NoACWarrior]

Unholy Scion? Seems like they're fully aware.

Although this is true, they remain non-combatants till they get thier first class, racial HD, or NPC level.

Do Non-combatants have 0 HP or 1 HP? Maybe someone whos ran or played in a hostage campaign can answer...

[Segev]

I'd aim for 7-10 at the youngest for a "kid" character. They're plenty childish and innocent, still, but mature enough to explain abstract concepts to without it feeling like you're not really playing a kid after all.

Could make them fluffed as a half-dragon who aren't showing their scales yet (or who have very limited markings yet), but also do'nt have any of the template traits yet. The template stat bonuses counteract any penalties you might have for being a kid, so you're as strong/smart/whatever as an adult.

Maybe take being Small sized rather than Medium, though, if a normally-Medium race is your non-dragon half. You're a kid, after all. That'd come with +1 to hit and AC, and a 20 ft. instead of a 30 ft. move speed, among other things.

Alternatively, use Halfling mechanics and claim to be a human child, fluff-wise.

Consider picking up or modifying Dragon Disciple, or go for the dragon bloodlines from UA.

[Naanomi]

I had a character who in her backstory made a Warlock Pact with a Fey in the woods near their house and had Warlock Powers at about 5... never actually played at that age though

[Skysaber]

Most articles and the like I've seen on playing characters younger than adult indicate that all stats except dexterity, and charisma are heavily rolled back. Charisma seems to however actually be a few points higher than even an adult character would posses.

My question is, would it be possible to build an effective toddler-age sorcerer if say a level of half dragon or the like way added?

(I know i have WAY too much time on my hands, but said is life.)

Quintessential Sorcerer beat you to it. They have rules on that already, page 20, with a nice little chart for ability modifiers for being a young adult, child or infant, out of any of the core races.

Doesn't even need the stronger-than-usual draconic connection you were proposing. But there is a feat, Child Prodigy, on the same page, to ignore reduction to one of your mental stats (choose Charisma) for being underage.

But yes, you can roleplay a sorcerer in his or her diapers if you want.

[Shadowscale]

Quintessential Sorcerer beat you to it. They have rules on that already, page 20, with a nice little chart for ability modifiers for being a young adult, child or infant, out of any of the core races.

Doesn't even need the stronger-than-usual draconic connection you were proposing. But there is a feat, Child Prodigy, on the same page, to ignore reduction to one of your mental stats (choose Charisma) for being underage.

But yes, you can roleplay a sorcerer in his or her diapers if you want.

I should take a look at these sources. Anyway someone would be willing to help me design a bloodline akin to pathfinder sorcerers for neonate early bloomer casters?

[Segev]

I should take a look at these sources. Anyway someone would be willing to help me design a bloodline akin to pathfinder sorcerers for neonate early bloomer casters?

The bloodlines are meant to refer to heritage, not age. I'd just take the bloodline that covers why you're so strongly magical that you're blossoming at so young an age. It can be any of them, really.

[Barstro]

I had a character who in her backstory made a Warlock Pact with a Fey in the woods near their house and had Warlock Powers at about 5... never actually played at that age though

That's how I saw this.
Child doesn't have the powers, some other entity has the powers and is manifesting them through the child.

[Segev]

That's how I saw this.
Child doesn't have the powers, some other entity has the powers and is manifesting them through the child.

Play a Fiend of Possession and possess a child?

Play a sorcerer with Magic Jar and do likewise? Maybe even play one who's made a magic item of continuously active Magic Jar because his body died, so now he needs a host.

[ericgrau]

I'd go with a -6 to all stats, then small size resulting in +2 dex, -2 str. You only need an 11 cha to cast, though a 12-13 would be better to get you started until you either get a cha item or age. So if you put an 18 in cha it could be done.

I'm following the pattern of SW Saga which IIRC gives the same penalties as old age but to all 6 stats. And it matches the major physical feebleness and general lack of social, worldly, and logical understanding.

I was thinking of doing something similar but with a child or pre-teen (not toddler) aasimar who relied on alter self then later polymorph himself to transform into a powerful outsider and melee. It would be like a kid playing out his own childhood superhero fantasy. At lower levels he'd summon celestial creatures. Anything to keep your frail physicals out of trouble could help, but I suspect at some point something will sneak up on you and you'll drop like a brick. -6 con is really hard to pull off at low level. At level 1 you may want toughness.

Maybe you could travel in a carriage. While far from invulnerable, it could stop most low level threats from getting a surprise attack on you. Plus bandits are more likely to target those outside first. When you hit level 4 or so spamming false life should help a lot.

Or play a kid that's at least a little older. Toddler is a bit nutso in a lethal world. Not just by my guess numbers, but conceptually too.

[Shadowscale]

I'd go with a -6 to all stats, then small size resulting in +2 dex, -2 str. You only need an 11 cha to cast, though a 12-13 would be better to get you started until you either get a cha item or age. So if you put an 18 in cha it could be done.

I'm following the pattern of SW Saga which IIRC gives the same penalties as old age but to all 6 stats. And it matches the major physical feebleness and general lack of social, worldly, and logical understanding.

I was thinking of doing something similar but with a child or pre-teen (not toddler) aasimar who relied on alter self then later polymorph himself to transform into a powerful outsider and melee. It would be like a kid playing out his own childhood superhero fantasy. At lower levels he'd summon celestial creatures. Anything to keep your frail physicals out of trouble could help, but I suspect at some point something will sneak up on you and you'll drop like a brick. -6 con is really hard to pull off at low level. At level 1 you may want toughness.

Maybe you could travel in a carriage. While far from invulnerable, it could stop most low level threats from getting a surprise attack on you. Plus bandits are more likely to target those outside first. When you hit level 4 or so spamming false life should help a lot.

Or play a kid that's at least a little older. Toddler is a bit nutso in a lethal world. Not just by my guess numbers, but conceptually too.

It was just meant to be a fun idea and play at how sorcerers are the youngest starting age and could technicality be any age for what they need to do if they had the arcane prowess for it. I feel it would just make for a fun campaign overall nothing else. Quintessential sorcerer seems to help a lot. I get its far fetched, it just seemed like an awesome idea I wanted to try to make work in a campaign.

[ericgrau]

It would be impressive at least.

I think the main obstacle is getting a good hp while also having an 18 cha (before penalties). There should be a way to optimize that. The penalty to all saves is annoying but tolerable at low level. Or I wouldn't be surprised if a sorcerer book gives a much better cha to children, leaving you with more points to put into con.

A simple way to survive level 1 might be human + endurance + diehard. I bet there are way better tricks out there. Or if your DM starts you at level 5, it'll be 10 times easier to pull off.

[Shadowscale]

It would be impressive at least.

I think the main obstacle is getting a good hp while also having an 18 cha. There should be a way to optimize that.

Yeah, it'd be essentially dealing with a -7 to it. Why I was thinking of adding in some of the modifiers half dragon brings to offset the penalties as being this young would be the equivalent of flaws but more so, would figure a level adjustment could be worked out with all these negatives weighed in against it. By taking the child prodigy feat from Quintessential Sorcerer I would essentially have -7 to all abilities except charisma which would not be impacted in any way.
if i were able to roll high it would seem doable as a 17 or so downgraded to 10 in con would be doable, yet far from optimal.
I really do appreciate all this help I know it's an odd subject and concept for people to talk about or work with. It just seems very entertaining.

[Segev]

The d20 version of A Game of Thrones has a Child template. It's -1 LA and has a Cha BONUS (but a lot of other penalties). IT's honestly kinda broken for any Cha-based casting class, but if you can find it it might give you some ideas.

I'll see if I can find the White Dragonspawn Kobold Child I built using that and the Dragonlance Dragonspawn rules. It wound up being a 2nd level sorcerer at 1st level. ^^; (I doubt any DM will EVER let me get away with playing it.)

[Shadowscale]

The d20 version of A Game of Thrones has a Child template. It's -1 LA and has a Cha BONUS (but a lot of other penalties). IT's honestly kinda broken for any Cha-based casting class, but if you can find it it might give you some ideas.

I'll see if I can find the White Dragonspawn Kobold Child I built using that and the Dragonlance Dragonspawn rules. It wound up being a 2nd level sorcerer at 1st level. ^^; (I doubt any DM will EVER let me get away with playing it.)

That way the first level of half dragon could be taken on top of it without losing on any sorcerer levels.

[Segev]

Well, White Dragonspawn is a +1 LA template, which counter-balances the -1 LA from child. It also gives +1 sorcerer level as part of the template. So a 1st level sorcerer white dragonspawn has 2 levels of sorcerer.

I don't know where the "first level of half-dragon" comes in. Half-dragon as I know it is a +3 LA template. Is there a Savage Species-style breakdown somewhere?

[Shadowscale]

Well, White Dragonspawn is a +1 LA template, which counter-balances the -1 LA from child. It also gives +1 sorcerer level as part of the template. So a 1st level sorcerer white dragonspawn has 2 levels of sorcerer.

I don't know where the "first level of half-dragon" comes in. Half-dragon as I know it is a +3 LA template. Is there a Savage Species-style breakdown somewhere?

Wizards has a savage progression for the half-dragon and wererat on their site by Sean Reynolds.

[Zombimode]

it just seemed like an awesome idea I wanted to try to make work in a campaign.

I am actually curious. Why do you think it would be an awesome concept? What's the appeal?

I mean, your playing a child, by definition an unrefined being. You wont understand most of the stuff happening around you, which limits your ability to interact in a meaningful way. I would find this incredibly boring.

[Shadowscale]

I am actually curious. Why do you think it would be an awesome concept? What's the appeal?

I mean, your playing a child, by definition an unrefined being. You wont understand most of the stuff happening around you, which limits your ability to interact in a meaningful way. I would find this incredibly boring.

seemed like a unique flavor where the off the wall things you do would be unique and different than anyone else's perspective. I do see your point however. Sometime's it's just refreshing to play something totally out of the box.


That's how I saw this.
Child doesn't have the powers, some other entity has the powers and is manifesting them through the child.

That's essentially what I was going for in a sense. More like the force is supercharging the child and slowly making them theirs. As starting young allows better control. Essentially around the lines i was thinking tiamat's influence explaining the boost in power, slowly making the child hers grooming it for power

[Segev]

Child characters interact with the world differently than adult ones. They are overlooked more easily, but given less overt freedom. They can ask stupid questions and only get a "why is this CHILD here?" reaction rather than a "you're terminally stupid" one; this can help parties out when there is a stupid question that needs asking.

They also "get away" with more antics that are fun to pull. You have to be careful not to annoy the other players OOC with it, but they can go do things that are fun or occasionally petty without seeming ludicrously out of character.

The innocence and mercurial nature of childish behavior can be fun to play. It is harder to pull off believably with older ones.

[Tetraplex]

On the issue of hp, check out the X Stat to Y thread. I know if you can swing a reasonable intelligence, Fae Mysteries Initiate applies that instead of CON. There might be a CHA based version.

(Rereading, FMI mentions 'exuberant sensual acts.' Might want to refluff that if you don't want your patron to have bad touched you to grant you magical powers...)

[Lord Vukodlak]

I did a child character once a human psion[telepath] age twelve. Despite being a child genius she still often acted as a child because intelligence and wisdom are not measures of maturity.

One of her displays of childishness was kicking people who offended her in the shins. The most common PC victim was the party Wizard Rodric, largely because he was a foreigner from a magical equivalent to late Medieval England to a land inspired by Rokugan.[Feudal Japan mixed with other Asian cultures). So he often said things that would give other people legal right to kill him. My character kicking him the shins would shame him sufficiently that people would forgive whatever offensive behavior he'd committed.

Often people would see me and question why I was with the party or why I was anywhere in the area to begin with. Such as in the beginning of the campaign the party met while in custody. Hawk Clan rebels had attacked the occupying Ram Clan soldiers so they rounded up random people for questioning.(including the party members) One Ram Clan officer questioned why a twelve year old girl was in the holding cell with a bunch of grown men so I sat in a chair outside the cell eating a cookie while the group awaiting interrogation.

I then used my telepathy to communicate with the party in order to plan our escape psionic suggestion also took care of the guards and when one party member voiced his displease at being rescued by a kid. I kicked him in the shin...

At a much later date an NPC implied that my character was used for... unseemly purposes he ended up on the roof singing "I'm a little teapot" for a couple hours in his undergarments.

[The Insanity]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChildMage
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChildProdigy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LittleMissBadass
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteBruiser

[Shadowscale]

I saw a feat to add charisma to starting health instead which should help.
So, I think this character should be doable, any advice for advancement through the levels?

[ericgrau]

I think any sorcerer build should work then. But I'd style it up so you can have fun with it. So pick some kind of style that goes with it and ask for help with that. For example consider what kind of spells tiamat might want to give to a child, or what kind of spells a child might want to have. Reference lists of useful spells, find out what fits from those. You might google "spell list site:www.giantitp.com". Most sorcerer or wizard lists should have options.