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Jormengand
2014-03-13, 03:20 PM
Remind me the last time you ever actually played one of these? Eh? It's like an NPC prestige class for particularly plot-ish dwarves. Let's change that.


The Dwarven Defender
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
AC bonus
1st+1+2+0+2Defensive Stance 1/day
1
2nd+2+3+0+3Uncanny Dodge
1
3rd+3+3+1+3Defensive Stance 2/day
1
4th+4+4+1+4Small But My Reach Is Long +5ft, Trap Sense +1
2
5th+5+4+1+4Defensive Stance 3/day
2
6th+6/+1+5+2+5Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction 3/-
2
7th+7/+2+5+2+5Fight me! 1/round, Defensive Stance 4/day
3
8th+8/+3+6+2+6Mobile Defence, Trap Sense +2
3
9th+9/+4+6+3+6Small But My Reach Is Long +10ft, Defensive Stance 5/day
3
10th+10/+5+7+3+7Damage Reduction 6/-
4
11th+11/+6/+1+7+3+7Fight me! 2/round, Defensive Stance 6/day
4
12th+12/+7/+2+8+4+8Armoured Strike, Trap Sense +3
4
13th+13/+8/+3+8+4+8Defensive Stance 7/day
5
14th+14/+9/+4+9+4+9I Will Not Move Yet, Small But My Reach Is Long +15ft, Damage Reduction 9/-
5
15th+15/+10/+5+9+5+9Fight me! 3/round, Defensive Stance 8/day
5
16th+16/+11/+6/+1+10+5+10Improved Mobile Defence, Trap Sense +4
6
17th+17/+12/+7/+2+10+5+10Defensive Stance 9/day
6
18th+18/+13/+8/+3+11+6+11Damage Reduction 12/-
6
19th+19/+14/+9/+4+11+6+11Fight me! 4/round, Small But My Reach Is Long +20ft, Defensive Stance 10/day
7
20th+20/+15/+10/+5+12+6+12It Will Not Die, Trap Sense +5
7

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d12
Special: The character must be a dwarf of some kind. At the DM's discretion, humans (including illumians or similar) who have significant ties to the dwarves may become dwarven defenders, typically through multiclassing. Other suitable races may similarly be allowed at the DM's discretion, but they should make some level of sense in the setting - while there is potential for a half-elf to make sense, a goblin probably wouldn't.

Class Skills:
The defenderís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier


AC Bonus (Ex)
The dwarven defender receives a dodge bonus to Armor Class that starts at +1 and improves as the defender gains levels, until it reaches +7 at 20th level.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A dwarven defender is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and shields.

Defensive Stance
When he adopts a defensive stance, a defender gains phenomenal strength and durability, but he cannot move from the spot he is defending. He gains +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, a +2 resistance bonus on all saves, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The increase in Constitution increases the defenderís hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the defensive stance when the Constitution score drops back 4 points. These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are. While in a defensive stance, a defender cannot use skills or abilities that would require him to shift his position. A defensive stance lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the characterís (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A defender may end his defensive stance voluntarily prior to this limit. At the end of the defensive stance, the defender is winded and takes a -2 penalty to Strength for the duration of that encounter. A defender can only use his defensive stance a certain number of times per day as determined by his level (see Table: The Dwarven Defender). Using the defensive stance takes no time itself, but a defender can only do so during his action.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a dwarven defender retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (He still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.)

If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below).

Trap Sense (Ex)
At 4th level, and every 4th level thereafter, a dwarven defender gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks by traps. These bonuses stack with trap sense bonuses gained from other classes.

Small But My Reach Is Long (Ex)
At 4th level, and every 5th level thereafter, the Dwarven Defender's reach increases by 5 feet.

Damage Reduction (Ex)
At 6th level, a dwarven defender gains damage reduction. Subtract 3 points from the damage the dwarven defender takes each time he is dealt damage. At 10th level, this damage reduction rises to 6/-, at 14th to 9/- and at 18th to 12/-. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 6th level, a dwarven defender can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the dwarven defender.

The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the dwarven defender can flank him (and thus sneak attack him).

If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Fight Me!
From seventh level, the Dwarven Defender may, once per round, make a free attack against anyone in range who attacks, casts a spell against, or otherwise acts with the direct intent to disadvantage one of his allies - by "Direct," this includes dropping a chandelier on someone by cutting the rope, but not summoning a creature to attack them, it includes sundering their equipment but not stealing the sword they intended to pick up.

The attack is resolved as though it were an attack of opportunity (and feats like Stand Still can be used as normal), but is counted separately (and feats like Combat Reflexes do not alter it). At every fourth level after seventh, the dwarven defender may use this attack once more.

Mobile Defense (Ex)
At 8th level, a dwarven defender can adjust his position while maintaining a defensive stance. While in a defensive stance, he can take one 5-foot step each round without losing the benefit of the stance.

Improved Defensive Stance
At 10th level, all positive effects of the Defensive Stance are doubled, and the dwarven defender doesn't take a strength penalty when it runs out.

Armoured Strike (Ex)
At 12th level, the Dwarven Defender adds his Flat-Footed AC to the damage of any attack he makes.

I Will Not Move Yet (Ex)
At 14th level, the Dwarven Defender may ready a full attack action, even though it is a full-round action.

Improved Mobile Defence (Ex)
At 16th level, the dwarven defender can move normally while in a defensive stance.

It Will Not Die (Ex)
At 20th level, the effects of the Defensive Stance become four times the normal instead of two. Also, the dwarven defender has fast healing 5 while in a defensive stance, and cannot be disabled, knocked unconscious or slain while the stance is in effect - he takes the relevant effects as normal when it ends. If he is in the defensive stance and would be slain instantly, he takes damage equal to his remaining health, plus ten damage (unless he is below -10 hit points anyway, in which case nothing happens).

Composer99
2014-03-13, 03:25 PM
Unless I'm overlooking something obvious, I think the class feature "I Will Not Move Yet" listed at 14th level on the table isn't fleshed out.

Jormengand
2014-03-13, 03:26 PM
Unless I'm overlooking something obvious, I think the class feature "I Will Not Move Yet" listed at 14th level on the table isn't fleshed out.

D'oh. Hang on, let me get that for you.

EDIT: Done. Thanks.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-13, 06:17 PM
Super quick: Is the reach upgrade given by Smal, but... too much ultimately? It is mechanically sound but visually odd. Also what about adding a weaker vwrsion of armoured strike at lowet levels? Like just your base armor bonus, then later your full FFAC.

lunar2
2014-03-13, 06:35 PM
you really should expand the class skill list. as a martial class, it should have intimidate. as a fixture of dwarven society, it should have knowledge (nobility and royalty, history, geography, dungeoneering). as a base class, it should have profession. also, climb jump swim, like all the other mundane classes. and since int is a dump stat for this class, it should probably get 4+ skill points/level. especially since normally, humans can't take this class.

you need to add weapon and armor proficiencies. probably simple and martial weapons, exotic dwarven weapons, light medium and heavy armor, and shields (including tower shields).

trap sense 1. doesn't fit the theme of the class, and 2. is a really weak, non-functioning class feature anyway (you are almost always flat footed when a trap attacks you, so you don't get dodge bonuses to AC). i'd suggest replacing it with mettle at 4th, and improved mettle at either 8th or 12th.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-13, 06:47 PM
Trap Sense was.on the original PrC, hence its inclusion here. Also what in the sam hill is Improved Mettle? Mettle is already a well regarded class feature for the sheer number.of things it shuts down.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-03-13, 07:05 PM
AC Bonus (Ex)
The dwarven defender receives a dodge bonus to Armor Class that starts at +1 and improves as the defender gains levels, until it reaches +7 at 20th level.
Dodge? Whuh? (Also, this scales slowish)


Defensive Stance
When he adopts a defensive stance, a defender gains phenomenal strength and durability, but he cannot move from the spot he is defending. He gains +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, a +2 resistance bonus on all saves, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The increase in Constitution increases the defenderís hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the defensive stance when the Constitution score drops back 4 points. These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are. While in a defensive stance, a defender cannot use skills or abilities that would require him to shift his position. A defensive stance lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the characterís (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A defender may end his defensive stance voluntarily prior to this limit. At the end of the defensive stance, the defender is winded and takes a -2 penalty to Strength for the duration of that encounter. A defender can only use his defensive stance a certain number of times per day as determined by his level (see Table: The Dwarven Defender). Using the defensive stance takes no time itself, but a defender can only do so during his action.
Does nothing to address the central flaw of the original PrC, namely that you've got no way to force your enemy to pay attention to you once you've planted yourself.


Trap Sense (Ex)
At 4th level, and every 4th level thereafter, a dwarven defender gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks by traps. These bonuses stack with trap sense bonuses gained from other classes.
I'm with lunar2 on this one-- this makes no sense for a heavy-armored warrior.


Small But My Reach Is Long (Ex)
At 4th level, and every 5th level thereafter, the Dwarven Defender's reach increases by 5 feet.
This gets amusingly huge.


Damage Reduction (Ex)
At 6th level, a dwarven defender gains damage reduction. Subtract 3 points from the damage the dwarven defender takes each time he is dealt damage. At 10th level, this damage reduction rises to 6/-, at 14th to 9/- and at 18th to 12/-. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
Solid.


Fight Me!
From seventh level, the Dwarven Defender may, once per round, make a free attack against anyone in range who attacks, casts a spell against, or otherwise acts with the direct intent to disadvantage one of his allies - by "Direct," this includes dropping a chandelier on someone by cutting the rope, but not summoning a creature to attack them, it includes sundering their equipment but not stealing the sword they intended to pick up.

The attack is resolved as though it were an attack of opportunity (and feats like Stand Still can be used as normal), but is counted separately (and feats like Combat Reflexes do not alter it). At every fourth level after seventh, the dwarven defender may use this attack once more.
Useful.


Mobile Defense (Ex)
At 8th level, a dwarven defender can adjust his position while maintaining a defensive stance. While in a defensive stance, he can take one 5-foot step each round without losing the benefit of the stance.
At the very least, can this be part of the original ability?

Improved Defensive Stance
At 10th level, all positive effects of the Defensive Stance are doubled, and the dwarven defender doesn't take a strength penalty when it runs out.


Armoured Strike (Ex)
At 12th level, the Dwarven Defender adds his Flat-Footed AC to the damage of any attack he makes.
...this is really weird fluff-wise and crunch-wise.


I Will Not Move Yet (Ex)
At 14th level, the Dwarven Defender may ready a full attack action, even though it is a full-round action.
Neat, although I'm not sure how it helps. (Since you're, you know, immobile)


Improved Mobile Defence (Ex)
At 16th level, the dwarven defender can move normally while in a defensive stance.
This comes online way too late to save you.


It Will Not Die (Ex)
At 20th level, the effects of the Defensive Stance become four times the normal instead of two. Also, the dwarven defender has fast healing 5 while in a defensive stance, and cannot be disabled, knocked unconscious or slain while the stance is in effect - he takes the relevant effects as normal when it ends. If he is in the defensive stance and would be slain instantly, he takes damage equal to his remaining health, plus ten damage (unless he is below -10 hit points anyway, in which case nothing happens).
Move the fast healing back to 10th level, and maybe upgrade it to regeneration at 15th. Otherwise, good capstone.

Conclusion: Decent tanking abilities, hampered by the fact that you cannot move to adapt to changing conditions. Fix that, add some stuff to be useful out of a fight, and you'll be a lot better off.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-13, 07:33 PM
The Amoured Strike was put in at my suggestion so I feel compelled to respond. I originally put it as damage to AC, Jor lowered it to FF for flavor (and power) reasons. My flavor thought was very much their solid footing and heavy armor would add power to each strike, causing it to hit harder than it should otherwise. Mechanically I wanted to reward people for going the AC heavy build that DD wants (by flavor).


Would it make more sense as Armor bonus to damage?

lunar2
2014-03-13, 07:40 PM
Trap Sense was.on the original PrC, hence its inclusion here. Also what in the sam hill is Improved Mettle? Mettle is already a well regarded class feature for the sheer number.of things it shuts down.

mettle actually doesn't shut down much more than evasion. yes, it covers two saves, but each save individually offers far fewer save for half or partial effects than reflex does.

and yes, trap sense was on the original PrC. but it didn't make sense then any more than it does now. it's still a very weak class feature that doesn't even work half the time it's supposed to.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-13, 08:08 PM
Mettle blocks the damage on Orb spells, which is pretty awesome. In general, it will futs with SoDs and SoSs while Evasion just stops some damage. Addig Mettle makes sense and is an excellent sugvestion. I am just confused as to what Improved Mettle is. If it is like improved evasion I could see that becoming a rules nightmare.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-03-13, 10:11 PM
Would it make more sense as Armor bonus to damage?
Mechanically, yeah. The fluff is still weird, though-- how does wearing more armor make you able to hit harder?

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-13, 10:22 PM
Moment. When you out weight into each strike the added weight of the armor means that there is simply more force. It is a highly style as tricky as it is impractical IRL, but hey, DnD..

lunar2
2014-03-14, 01:35 AM
Mettle blocks the damage on Orb spells, which is pretty awesome. In general, it will futs with SoDs and SoSs while Evasion just stops some damage. Addig Mettle makes sense and is an excellent sugvestion. I am just confused as to what Improved Mettle is. If it is like improved evasion I could see that becoming a rules nightmare.

yes, improved mettle is just like improved evasion. and it fits perfectly with the theme of this class, which is stand there and shrug off everything everybody throws at you, basically being a living wall.

it won't break the game if a few dwarves are immune to save or dies. all it does is force the casters to use more conventional means of attack, like blasting.

and yes, orbs (except orb of force) would be an issue. but wouldn't it be nice for there to actually be a situation where they are not the default blasting option?

you seem to be worried that this is going to hurt casters too much. i think it's actually a good idea to have someone who can shut down the casters' best tricks. make them operate at the same level as the rest of the party, for once.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-03-14, 07:54 AM
Forget casters. I am just worried that it would make the RULES explode. I was pointing out that mettle is already an excellent ability. Now, what about a "withstand" type ability. As long as they are in defensive stance they take half damage on anything that lffers a Reflex save. A further save would take it down to a quarter. That way the defender can have defenses against all three save types.

Jormengand
2014-03-14, 11:59 AM
Dodge? Whuh? (Also, this scales slowish)
Makes some level of sense... what was it gonna be? Enhancement? Deflection? Profane?


Does nothing to address the central flaw of the original PrC, namely that you've got no way to force your enemy to pay attention to you once you've planted yourself.
You still have AoOs, SbmRiL and Fight Me. Also, put yourself somewhere tactical (Martial classes? Tactical? BLASPHEMY!) and you'll actually be able to do something interesting.


I'm with lunar2 on this one-- this makes no sense for a heavy-armored warrior.
What, not getting killed by traps makes no sense for a dwarven defender?


This gets amusingly huge.
Aye, but we're playing the game where monks bounce and some people are incredibly dangerous except when it's their turn. Try not to think too hard about it and a dwarf hitting someone 25 feet away won't seem so weird.



At the very least, can this be part of the original ability?

Could be, I suppose.



...this is really weird fluff-wise and crunch-wise.

I hit something harder because I have more momentum. Figures.


Neat, although I'm not sure how it helps. (Since you're, you know, immobile)
It helps precisely because you're immobile. You know, as soon as someone comes in reach you can bop them fore times on the forehead.


This comes online way too late to save you.
What, save you from your own poor tactical decisions?


Move the fast healing back to 10th level, and maybe upgrade it to regeneration at 15th. Otherwise, good capstone.

Conclusion: Decent tanking abilities, hampered by the fact that you cannot move to adapt to changing conditions. Fix that, add some stuff to be useful out of a fight, and you'll be a lot better off.

Ehh, I consider any "You have fast healing. No strings attacks, no way to get rid of it, you have fast healing" ability to be capstone-worthy.

You're not meant to be able to move; that's the point of the Defensive Stance. You need to be clever with it.


As for mettle, it's not really necessary. I'm not even sure what in core, if anything, offers such a save (remember that Dwarven Defender is, in fact, core.) If there's a compelling reason to have it, maybe.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-03-14, 12:24 PM
Makes some level of sense... what was it gonna be? Enhancement? Deflection? Profane?
Natural Armor? Competence (yes, yes, it's not listed but who cares?) Deflection? It just seems weird to dodge while wearing full plate.


You still have AoOs, SbmRiL and Fight Me. Also, put yourself somewhere tactical (Martial classes? Tactical? BLASPHEMY!) and you'll actually be able to do something interesting.
The issue is that, unless you're fighting in a very confined space/until you get that enormous reach, that's not possible. Not every game takes place in a tight dungeon. You can threaten a nice big radius, but you're not sticky. You've got no way to keep people in that area if they don't want to be. And if they do get by you (open space, tumble, flight, teleport, eating the AoO...), then you're doomed.


What, not getting killed by traps makes no sense for a dwarven defender?
Having special trap dodging powers? Yes. You don't dodge traps, you walk into them and have them shatter against your adamantine breastplate!


Aye, but we're playing the game where monks bounce and some people are incredibly dangerous except when it's their turn. Try not to think too hard about it and a dwarf hitting someone 25 feet away won't seem so weird.

I don't have a mechanical problem with it, but the main way I'd visualize it (a quick charge, lunge and retreat) is incompatable with the lack of movement.


I hit something harder because I have more momentum. Figures.
Eh, whatever.


It helps precisely because you're immobile. You know, as soon as someone comes in reach you can bop them fore times on the forehead.
No it doesn't, because no-one's going to come within reach of you because you're just sitting there.


What, save you from your own poor tactical decisions?
So that you can adapt to a changing tactical environment, yes.


As for mettle, it's not really necessary. I'm not even sure what in core, if anything, offers such a save (remember that Dwarven Defender is, in fact, core.) If there's a compelling reason to have it, maybe.
Inflict ____ Wounds. Disintegrate. Finger of Death. Shadow Evocation/Conjuration. Shall I continue?

Blue_C.
2014-03-17, 06:51 AM
Aye, but we're playing the game where monks bounce and some people are incredibly dangerous except when it's their turn. Try not to think too hard about it and a dwarf hitting someone 25 feet away won't seem so weird.


This cracked me up.



What, not getting killed by traps makes no sense for a dwarven defender?Having special trap dodging powers? Yes. You don't dodge traps, you walk into them and have them shatter against your adamantine breastplate!


I think it makes perfect sense for a Dwarven defender to be able to get out of the way of traps. Hell, I'd throw on trapfinding, too, and search (but not disable device). If there had been a Kobold version of this class, it would have made sense for them as well. It fits their racial fluff.

Grod, would it help if the fluff for trap sense in this particular case was described as: "The dwarven defender learns to combine their innate ability to spot traps and their armor familiarity to use their armor to deflect, mitigate, and ignore the effects of traps." Same mechanical effect, but different way of thinking about it.