Vaarsuvius' Ego

[FallenFallcrest]

Vaarsuvius seems to be taking this whole "sell part of the time of your soul to an incredibly powerful group of infernal businessmen in order to temporarily gain enough power to brutally electrocute an entire family of dragons and dragon hybrids, losing the custody of your children and divorcing your mate because your family is now disgusted with what you have become thing" pretty well. I know V had a panic attack after seeing the mummies of the Draketooth family, and he has been very disappointed in his decisions now that he realizes the true scope of the crime, but one thing has not been addressed. Vaarsuvius will never gain as much power as the power level of Darth Vaarsuvius. His/Her ego should have taken a more massive blow than what we have seen so far. He/she had a taste of power unlike what any mortal has had in centuries, and it was obtained by a moment of recklessness. There is no path for redemption after such a great transgression, but V still needs to try. V only seems to consider it a source of shame.

[zimmerwald1915]

Vaarsuvius seems to be taking this whole "sell part of the time of your soul to an incredibly powerful group of infernal businessmen in order to temporarily gain enough power to brutally electrocute an entire family of dragons and dragon hybrids, losing the custody of your children and divorcing your mate because your family is now disgusted with what you have become thing" pretty well. I know V had a panic attack after seeing the mummies of the Draketooth family, and he has been very disappointed in his decisions now that he realizes the true scope of the crime, but one thing has not been addressed. Vaarsuvius will never gain as much power as the power level of Darth Vaarsuvius. His/Her ego should have taken a more massive blow than what we have seen so far. He/she had a taste of power unlike what any mortal has had in centuries, and it was obtained by a moment of recklessness. There is no path for redemption after such a great transgression, but V still needs to try. V only seems to consider it a source of shame.
If I may ask, what point are you trying to make here? I see a number of broadly true observations, but they don't seem to lead to a conclusion.

[FallenFallcrest]

If I may ask, what point are you trying to make here? I see a number of broadly true observations, but they don't seem to lead to a conclusion.

My main point was why is V showing more effect of having his/her ego destroyed. V was influenced and used as a pawn by powers far greater than he/she can ever achieve, given power that could rival any mortal, but in the grand scheme of things was never that great to begin with (further shown by Xykon mopping the floor with V, just by having a better understanding of what power really means). That, in my opinion would be devastating to the ego.

[oppyu]

V's been through a lot, it stands to reason that ver ego isn't quite what it used to be. Plus, lately V has had bigger things to worry about than 'all these people are more powerful than me'.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think it was a large blow to their ego, but they are trying to regain confidence. Vaarsuvius is beginning to realize that the way they previously used their magic was not the best way to use it, and that a more subtle approach might be the better way to do things. They, in a sense, might be able to approach the power level of what they once were by using what powers they currently have more wisely rather than using some very powerful spells in effectively.

Also, I hardly think Vaarsuvius took things well. Right now, they have had a chance to recover, but when Vaarsuvius first realized the magnitude of what he had done, Vaarsuvius had a large negative reaction.

[zimmerwald1915]

My main point was why is V showing more effect of having his/her ego destroyed. V was influenced and used as a pawn by powers far greater than he/she can ever achieve, given power that could rival any mortal, but in the grand scheme of things was never that great to begin with (further shown by Xykon mopping the floor with V, just by having a better understanding of what power really means). That, in my opinion would be devastating to the ego.
Oh, well we've seen how V deals with people who prove themselves more powerful than her: find a way to spite them anyway. After the mother dragon reduced to to a "fragile pointy-eared monkey" V contemptuously ripped her apart. After Xykon forced her to retreat, V went back to heal O-Chul so he could escape. After Zz'dtri proved resistant to her magic, V dominated Yukyuk into almost killing him. After Laurin demonstrated her penchant for throwing high-level powers around willy-nilly, V attrited her into a retreat. Doubtless she'll come up with some petty, yet clever and entertaining way to screw over the Directors in the same vein.

[Loreweaver15]

Considering her ego was at one point best described as planet-sized, I think the recent bout of humility, repentance, contrition, and attempts to self-police are a pretty good indicator that her ego was shattered almost completely.

[oppyu]

It bears mentioning that four of the five actions described above were necessary for the survival of ver or vis teammates, and some who are not zimmer would describe them as not petty, but heroic.

EDIT: And even the 'contemptuous ripping apart' was Darth V taking out the threat against vis family. It only gets petty, gratuitous and calamitous when ve starts with the genocide.

[zimmerwald1915]

It bears mentioning that four of the five actions described above were necessary for the survival of ver or vis teammates, and some who are not zimmer would describe them as not petty, but heroic.
Where is Liliet these days anyway?

And would you mind explaining that "four out of five" comment (especially since I only used four scenarios as examples: the dragon, Xykon, Zz'dtri, and Laurin), and clarifying who you mean by "teammates"? If "teammates" means "other members of the Order," then I really must protest. The dragon never attacked any Order member besides V, O-Chul isn't a member of the Order, and Elan and Haley (admittedly due to V's insistence and aid) were well out of Zz'dtri's line of fire by the time V got around to dominating Yukyuk. If "teammates" means "other people with whom V has some sort of relationship," then I'll concede the point but wonder at the word choice.


EDIT: And even the 'contemptuous ripping apart' was Darth V taking out the threat against vis family. It only gets petty, gratuitous and calamitous when ve starts with the genocide.
Strictly speaking, yes. But I was trying to avoid making explicit reference to familicide. That's a bell you just can't unring.

[oppyu]

Where is Liliet these days anyway?

And would you mind explaining that "four out of five" comment (especially since I only used four scenarios as examples: the dragon, Xykon, Zz'dtri, and Laurin), and clarifying who you mean by "teammates"? If "teammates" means "other members of the Order," then I really must protest. The dragon never attacked any Order member besides V, O-Chul isn't a member of the Order, and Elan and Haley (admittedly due to V's insistence and aid) were well out of Zz'dtri's line of fire by the time V got around to dominating Yukyuk. If "teammates" means "other people with whom V has some sort of relationship," then I'll concede the point but wonder at the word choice.


Strictly speaking, yes. But I was trying to avoid making explicit reference to familicide. That's a bell you just can't unring.
Er... three out of the four. I is smart enough to count. As for teammates, the word choice made sense when I wrote it. Then again, I also confused the numbers 4 and 5, so maybe that was just a scatterbrained moment. How about 'allies'? V intervened for the survival of ver or vis allies. (To be clear, 'ver' here is a gender-neutral 'him' ... maybe I should just go back to the singular they)

[zimmerwald1915]

Er... three out of the four. I is smart enough to count. As for teammates, the word choice made sense when I wrote it. Then again, I also confused the numbers 4 and 5, so maybe that was just a scatterbrained moment. How about 'allies'? V intervened for the survival of ver or vis allies. (To be clear, 'ver' here is a gender-neutral 'him' ... maybe I should just go back to the singular they)
I don't think a single term denoting close association encompasses the kind of relationships V had with Inkyrius and O-Chul. I had considered "associates", but how about sticking to "V intervened for the sake of others?" The term is broad enough to encompass everyone who was helped by V's actions and makes your point about heroic altruism better than emphasizing how close the others in question were to V.

As for the pronouns, their meaning was plain enough.

[oppyu]

I don't think a single term denoting close association encompasses the kind of relationships V had with Inkyrius and O-Chul. I had considered "associates", but how about sticking to "V intervened for the sake of others?" The term is broad enough to encompass everyone who was helped by V's actions and makes your point about heroic altruism better than emphasizing how close the others in question were to V.

As for the pronouns, their meaning was plain enough.
Alright, V intervened for the safety of others. Semantics are serious business people. :smallbiggrin:

[JBiddles]

With all due respect, Zimmerwald, if V hadn't gone back (risking worse than death, I might add) to save O-Chul, you'd be complaining of her heartlessness.

V's ego wasn't in play any more; she'd already been smashed into the floor by Xykon. The moment she turns around is upon hearing of O-Chul's fate.

[zimmerwald1915]

With all due respect, Zimmerwald, if V hadn't gone back (risking worse than death, I might add) to save O-Chul, you'd be complaining of her heartlessness.
Possibly. But since (as far as I know) neither of us have the power to cross into the alternate universe where that's the way the story went, and since neither of us is immortal and so won't live to see that technology, we'll never know.

[Seto]

I don't think saving O'Chul or forcing Laurin to retreat was done to spite Xykon or Laurin. It was done because that was the smartest and safest thing to do under the circumstances.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think saving O'Chul or forcing Laurin to retreat was done to spite Xykon or Laurin. It was done because that was the smartest and safest thing to do under the circumstances.
You consider going back into a room that contained Xykon was smart and safe? I'd hate to think what you consider stupidly dangerous.

[Seto]

You consider going back into a room that contained Xykon was smart and safe? I'd hate to think what you consider stupidly dangerous.

Well, bursting into an epic lich's room alone because of a rush of ego, that's stupidly dangerous. Now, seeing as you are unable to escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) or do anything damage-wise, slipping a potion to the capable warrior at your side seems smart and safe (not only the safest for you, but for both of you). Then, seeing as you still cannot get out of here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) because you lack such magic, trying to weaken your enemy before dying so that the others will have it easier (O'Chul's decision) seems the best way to go. Note that V still considers safe escape a priority (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) (panel 2).

[FallenFallcrest]

Well, bursting into an epic lich's room alone because of a rush of ego, that's stupidly dangerous. Now, seeing as you are unable to escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) or do anything damage-wise, slipping a potion to the capable warrior at your side seems smart and safe (not only the safest for you, but for both of you). Then, seeing as you still cannot get out of here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) because you lack such magic, trying to weaken your enemy before dying so that the others will have it easier (O'Chul's decision) seems the best way to go. Note that V still considers safe escape a priority (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) (panel 2).

I agree, it seems that using the encounter with Xykon as an example in these arguments will not work because V has not had the time to reflect upon what has happened. No real character development can be said to happen until after this event. There is no real reason that V would have thought escape was possible, so V was thinking in a last ditch attempt at damaging Xykon. Having O'Chul damage him while V throws the phylactery in another dimension was the best way to do that. A miracle (possibly a literal one, depending on your view of the MitD) was the only thing that managed to save O'Chul and V.

[ChristianSt]

Well, bursting into an epic lich's room alone because of a rush of ego, that's stupidly dangerous. Now, seeing as you are unable to escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) or do anything damage-wise, slipping a potion to the capable warrior at your side seems smart and safe (not only the safest for you, but for both of you). Then, seeing as you still cannot get out of here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) because you lack such magic, trying to weaken your enemy before dying so that the others will have it easier (O'Chul's decision) seems the best way to go. Note that V still considers safe escape a priority (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html) (panel 2).


It is really interesting that your analysis didn't include 657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), where we see V starting to climb down and returning to help O-Chul.

While I don't now whether V would have succeeded with climbing down (and it is still dangerous and she/he would be somewhere in Gobbotopia), it would imo pretty obvious much safer than turning back to help O-Chul.

And I think nobody could have really blamed V for it. Without the incredible unlikely help of MitD they would have no chance to survive. Whch V hadn't even reason to assume will help them.

So yeah. That decision is imo stupidly dangerous.

[Seto]

Oh, right. I never saw that, I thought that V was just lying on the ground. My bad. Ok, so this decision was a selfless one. Even better ! Since my original point was that saving O'Chul wasn't done in order to spite Xykon.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, right. I never saw that, I thought that V was just lying on the ground. My bad. Ok, so this decision was a selfless one. Even better ! Since my original point was that saving O'Chul wasn't done in order to spite Xykon.
What was it for then? According to V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) she didn't much care about O-Chul's fate.

[Seto]

What was it for then? According to V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) she didn't much care about O-Chul's fate.

Well, V's "intended goal" was to crush Xykon. That was a foolish goal. Then, having failed, V switched goals on the spot, the new goal being to escape, along with O'Chul. That's my take on this sentence anyway.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What was it for then? According to V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) she didn't much care about O-Chul's fate.

I disagree. I think when they went in to fight Xykon, they were not planning on rescuing O-Chul. However, that doesn't mean that, later, after Vaarsuvius was defeated, that they didn't care about O-Chul.

[ChristianSt]

What was it for then? According to V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) she didn't much care about O-Chul's fate.

No, in 667 V didn't say he/she does (not) care about O-Chul. V said that his/her goal was not to save the paladin. Which even would have made no sense, then V didn't even know that O-Chul would be there. [It is possible that Belkar or Haley did say that O-Chul was with the MitD, but even that does't mean that O-Chul is alive. And it would be really odd to share that information in the few moments they had before V ported to Xykon.]


If V didn't care about O-Chul's fate, he/she wouldn't have stopped climbing down to help him. (But yeah, it could have been not because he/she cared about O-Chul, but only because V wanted to do the Stupid Good thing.)

[Seto]

Or... V's decision to climb back up and go save the paladin could be construed as V having a (conscious or unconscious) death wish because V felt both stupid, horrible (Familicide) and humiliated (defeat by Xykon), and didn't want to/feel able to live with it !

Because V's ego was crushed ! And thus we get back to the topic :)

[zimmerwald1915]

We were off topic?

[Seto]

Kinda. Not by much.

[oppyu]

Isn't 'stupidly dangerous' a necessary ingredient of... y'know, heroism? At least in fantasy-adventure tales? I don't think an examination of the most coldly logical and self-preserving path available covers the instincts that inspire people to risk their lives for others. I mean, do you look at firefighters and go "Gee, they're only risking their lives to save other people to spite the Fire God. Obviously the rational thing would be to not enter the burning building in the first place, and they have no discernible emotional attachment to the small child they're carrying out. What jerks."

Of all the things Vaarsuvius has done, climbing back up into the tower to help O-Chul is one of the most heroic things V may ever do. Ve placed ver life in significant danger to save the life of someone ve doesn't really care about. It seems odd that this is now a point of criticism for V's moral character.

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't 'stupidly dangerous' a necessary ingredient of... y'know, heroism? At least in fantasy-adventure tales? I don't think an examination of the most coldly logical and self-preserving path available covers the instincts that inspire people to risk their lives for others. I mean, do you look at firefighters and go "Gee, they're only risking their lives to save other people to spite the Fire God. Obviously the rational thing would be to not enter the burning building in the first place, and they have no discernible emotional attachment to the small child they're carrying out. What jerks."

Of all the things Vaarsuvius has done, climbing back up into the tower to help O-Chul is one of the most heroic things V may ever do. Ve placed ver life in significant danger to save the life of someone ve doesn't really care about. It seems odd that this is now a point of criticism for V's moral character.
The problem with interpreting this scene is that there's nothing beyond V's silent expression to go on. Absent some kind of declaration, a silent expression is insolubly ambiguous. So one's impression of the action is going to depend more on one's preexisting presumptions about and impression of the character than on anything about the action itself. In the case of an unknown firefighter going into a burning building, there isn't much preexisting presumption about the individual to go on, so someone wanting to analyze the action will inevitably fall back on stereotypes about firefighters. In V's case, we the audience are in a rather better position. Rich introduced us to her petty spitefulness over six hundred strips, from blowing up the orc parking attendant, to billing Miko for rescuing the dirt farmer (which not even Haley did!), to suspecting the universe of inventing the Death Knight's spell resistance just to spite her (projecting?), to openly telling Lien that her research time was more important than Azurite lives. And as FallenFallCrest pointed out - echoing the DStP commentary, whether FFC means to or not - character development for V begins only after that scene, so there's no call to conjure some massive character reversal to explain V's actions. Going back to spite Xykon by depriving him of his "prisoner first class" is more consistent with V's portrayal up to that point than V suddenly developing a heroic streak.

[oppyu]

The thing about all those incidents of Vaarsuvius being a spiteful self-obsessed jerk is that they all involved zero personal risk. Miko was a Lawful Good paladin who was unlikely to kill a whiny but nonviolent prisoner (or so Vaarsuvius thought at the time) and the parking attendant was unlikely to have enough levels to threaten a powerful wizard. And while V isn't going to win Hero of the Month anytime soon, ve does have heroic instincts from time to time.

During the battle of Azure City, V was perhaps the single greatest force on the human side, despite the fact that ve didn't really have a stake in the fight as far as we know. Ve fought like a champion right up to the point where ve was out of spells, at which point ve fled like a coward (I did say ve wasn't going to win Hero of the Month -_-). But the heroic instincts show later. V was tormented by guilt over ver inability to do more, shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)and more explicitly here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). While this lead to a neutral BSOD and Familicide, it also leads to V making a different choice the next time ve was drained of power yet still in a position to aid a helpless Azurite, earning some kind of redemption for Azure City. (Because really, a discussion about V would not be complete with references to both Familicide and redemption.)

[Miriel]

The problem with interpreting this scene is that there's nothing beyond V's silent expression to go on. Absent some kind of declaration, a silent expression is insolubly ambiguous. So one's impression of the action is going to depend more on one's preexisting presumptions about and impression of the character than on anything about the action itself. In the case of an unknown firefighter going into a burning building, there isn't much preexisting presumption about the individual to go on, so someone wanting to analyze the action will inevitably fall back on stereotypes about firefighters. In V's case, we the audience are in a rather better position. Rich introduced us to her petty spitefulness over six hundred strips, from blowing up the orc parking attendant, to billing Miko for rescuing the dirt farmer (which not even Haley did!), to suspecting the universe of inventing the Death Knight's spell resistance just to spite her (projecting?), to openly telling Lien that her research time was more important than Azurite lives. And as FallenFallCrest pointed out - echoing the DStP commentary, whether FFC means to or not - character development for V begins only after that scene, so there's no call to conjure some massive character reversal to explain V's actions. Going back to spite Xykon by depriving him of his "prisoner first class" is more consistent with V's portrayal up to that point than V suddenly developing a heroic streak.
We do have more than a silent expression. We have context.

What creates said silent expression just before V turns back? Xykon's talking about "getting serious" about mistreating O-Chul. Looking at V's expression in panel 7, does it look like they want to do something else against Xykon? The expression is something like resignation or guilt. Nothing here indicates that V's goal was to do anything against Xykon. Everything shows they were selflessly saving O-Chul.

Saying V tries to spite their opponents is not a very strong claim. All three other instances were about victory over a stronger opponent. The point of using unconventional tactics to defeat Zz'dtri or Laurin was to win. Ripping apart the black dragon was just a show-off way to win, and V was also shown as not being averse to showing off.

[Loreweaver15]

to billing Miko for rescuing the dirt farmer (which not even Haley did!)

Note that V was billing Miko (expressly because Miko was several words stronger than 'jerk' that I'm sure are disallowed on here!) and not the dirt farmer. V wasn't really billing Miko for rescuing the dirt farmers, V was billing Miko for being Miko.


And as FallenFallCrest pointed out - echoing the DStP commentary, whether FFC means to or not - character development for V begins only after that scene, so there's no call to conjure some massive character reversal to explain V's actions. Going back to spite Xykon by depriving him of his "prisoner first class" is more consistent with V's portrayal up to that point than V suddenly developing a heroic streak.

Can you quote us the part where Rich said V's character development doesn't begin until later? Because that moment where she realizes she's leaving O-Chul behind to a fate worse than death and turns back to save him despite almost certainly dying for her troubles was the point where the rest of us thought her character development got going.

That said, good to see you back on form, Z.

[zimmerwald1915]

We do have more than a silent expression. We have context.
We certainly do. We have the through-line of V's actions up to that point.


What creates said silent expression just before V turns back? Xykon's talking about "getting serious" about mistreating O-Chul. Looking at V's expression in panel 7, does it look like they want to do something else against Xykon? The expression is something like resignation or guilt. Nothing here indicates that V's goal was to do anything against Xykon. Everything shows they were selflessly saving O-Chul.
All that can be definitively derived from that series of panels is that V considered a course of action and then decided to adopt it. Nothing in the panels says why she decided to adopt it, or what considerations were paramount in her thinking. She could have felt guilty over abandoning O-Chul and turned back to spare him a horrible fate. She could have felt burned by her defeat at Xykon's hands and turned back to spite him. Nothing in the panels themselves gives any indication one way or another.

But we don't have to look only at the couple of panels. Nothing in V's behavior up to that point, in the entire comic, indicated a selfless streak. She had had plenty of opportunities to be selfless before. She could have stayed and held the breach instead of deserting. She could have helped rescue Lien from the orcs. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence, some of which I've already cited, pointing to V's petty, spiteful streak. But there's more. She wanted to soul bind the Linear Guild for having hounded the Order. Failing that, she wanted to see them and Miko battle for the Order's amusement in a gladiorial arena, i.e., behave exactly like Tarquin for exactly the same reasons: petty personal revenge. Her whole program of violence against Belkar had the same sort of animus.

Because the scene itself is ambiguous without the context of V's through-line leading up to it, and because that through-line presents a very clear of V's character, I think the scene should be interpreted as a continuation of that through-line rather than a radical departure from it. The radical departure came a book later.


Saying V tries to spite their opponents is not a very strong claim. All three other instances were about victory over a stronger opponent. The point of using unconventional tactics to defeat Zz'dtri or Laurin was to win. Ripping apart the black dragon was just a show-off way to win, and V was also shown as not being averse to showing off.
But V did not need to achieve victory in most of those situations. With Xykon, she did not need to turn around, and she did so anyway. With Zz'dtri, she could have run away, and chose to dominate Yukyuk instead. I'll grant you that in Laurin's case victory was the only option, but come on. V basically put her thumb to her nose, waggled her fingers, and chanted "I'm better than you are, nyah nyah" until she went away.

[Loreweaver15]

So...wait. The pained resignation on V's face right before she turns back to save O-Chul is really just her plotting how best to annoy Xykon?

That's how you read it?

I shouldn't be surprised, and yet, I am.

EDIT: Also, wow, you're blaming V for trying to beat Z instead of running and hiding?

[zimmerwald1915]

Note that V was billing Miko (expressly because Miko was several words stronger than 'jerk' that I'm sure are disallowed on here!) and not the dirt farmer. V wasn't really billing Miko for rescuing the dirt farmers, V was billing Miko for being Miko.
:haley: What was she going to do, take a percentage of their dirt?

Please tell me how "you're a jerk to me, so I'll be a jerk right back" doesn't equate to petty revenge? It's nowhere near the scale of Tarquin's petty revenge, but as I've pointed out, that's only because V doesn't actually have an arena on hand. The thought to make Miko a gladiator certainly crossed her mind.


Can you quote us the part where Rich said V's character development doesn't begin until later? Because that moment where she realizes she's leaving O-Chul behind to a fate worse than death and turns back to save him despite almost certainly dying for her troubles was the point where the rest of us thought her character development got going.
Sure. Commentary before strip #643 in Don't Split the Party. "Without the Xykon fight, V actually succeeds at everything he/she attempts upon gaining the splice, which would have reinforced (rather than shaken) his/her belief that arcane magic solves all problems. Growth only begins for Vaarsuvius after Xykon defeats him/her, however. Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when that happens."

EDIT: oh, and since it'll get brought up, the way I read that excerpt, "that" in the last sentence refers only to "Xykon defeats him/her."


That said, good to see you back on form, Z.
:durkon: Service is my sole purpose, my liege. If I may ask, when did I slip off form? :smallredface:


So...wait. The pained resignation on V's face right before she turns back to save O-Chul is really just her plotting how best to annoy Xykon?

That's how you read it?

I shouldn't be surprised, and yet, I am.
I don't see why you would be. I've argued the same exact point before. Usually against Liliet, who's usually the one to bring up rescuing O-Chul as Exhibit A of her "V's a hero" argument. Which is why I asked where she was. It's just not the same without her.


EDIT: Also, wow, you're blaming V for trying to beat Z instead of running and hiding?
There's nothing blameworthy per se about the decision to continue the fight with Z when considered on its own. But it goes to establish a pattern of vindictive behavior on V's part.

[oppyu]

Sure. Commentary before strip #643 in Don't Split the Party. "Without the Xykon fight, V actually succeeds at everything he/she attempts upon gaining the splice, which would have reinforced (rather than shaken) his/her belief that arcane magic solves all problems. Growth only begins for Vaarsuvius after Xykon defeats him/her, however. Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when that happens."

EDIT: oh, and since it'll get brought up, the way I read that excerpt, "that" in the last sentence refers only to "Xykon defeats him/her."
I read that as meaning that V's character development starts after Xykon smooshes ver with a giant piece of debris, robbing V of vis 'raw unlimited energies'. Thus, the first indicator of said character development would be sneaking back to help O-Chul. I'm going to predict that you read that differently.

Also, my previous thing about the poetry of V abandoning the Azurites due to incredible danger and lack of spells, then feeling really bad, then becoming a huge(r) jerk to compensate, then having the jerkiness beaten out of ver, and then saving another Azurite despite incredible danger and lack of spells to make up for it applies as well.

[Loreweaver15]

:haley: What was she going to do, take a percentage of their dirt?

Please tell me how "you're a jerk to me, so I'll be a jerk right back" doesn't equate to petty revenge? It's nowhere near the scale of Tarquin's petty revenge, but as I've pointed out, that's only because V doesn't actually have an arena on hand. The thought to make Miko a gladiator certainly crossed her mind.

Oh, it's absolutely V being a petty jerk; it just kind of seemed that you thought V was being a petty jerk about rescuing the dirt farmers in particular rather than being a petty jerk to another jerk. Degrees of jerkiness thaat, while slim, will have relevance to later events when establishing a sequence of petty revenge.


Sure. Commentary before strip #643 in Don't Split the Party. "Without the Xykon fight, V actually succeeds at everything he/she attempts upon gaining the splice, which would have reinforced (rather than shaken) his/her belief that arcane magic solves all problems. Growth only begins for Vaarsuvius after Xykon defeats him/her, however. Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when that happens."

EDIT: oh, and since it'll get brought up, the way I read that excerpt, "that" in the last sentence refers only to "Xykon defeats him/her."

I'd contend that V was defeated the moment she got hit with a piece of wall so hard it knocked the splices out of her.


:durkon: Service is my sole purpose, my liege. If I may ask, when did I slip off form? :smallredface:

Oh, you know, a few posts I'd seen where your blind, seething hatred for elven casters seemed to abate somewhat. Please forgive me for my inattention :P



I don't see why you would be. I've argued the same exact point before. Usually against Liliet, who's usually the one to bring up rescuing O-Chul as Exhibit A of her "V's a hero" argument. Which is why I asked where she was. It's just not the same without her.

Oh, V was a petty, irresponsible jerk up until that point. I'm just pointing to "pained resignation, I'll do this thing even though there's no tangible benefit to me and I'd get away clean if I didn't" as a compelling argument for character growth and a moment of decision rather than calculating petty revenge.

V wasn't suicidal until much, much later, you'll recall.

[zimmerwald1915]

I read that as meaning that V's character development starts after Xykon smooshes ver with a giant piece of debris, robbing V of vis 'raw unlimited energies'. Thus, the first indicator of said character development would be sneaking back to help O-Chul. I'm going to predict that you read that differently.
In that case our interpretations of the text are pretty much irreconcilable. You want the "that" in the final sentence to modify everything before it from "growth only begins" to "Xykon defeats him/her", while I read "that" to modify only "Xykon defeats him/her," the last thing before "that." In other words, you want the last sentence to read "Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when growth begins for him/her" (I'm paraphrasing the Giant, so I'll stick to his preferred pronoun), and I think it reads "Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when Xykon defeats him/her. Agree to disagree?


Also, my previous thing about the poetry of V abandoning the Azurites due to incredible danger and lack of spells, then feeling really bad, then becoming a huge(r) jerk to compensate, then having the jerkiness beaten out of ver, and then saving another Azurite despite incredible danger and lack of spells to make up for it applies as well.
That interpretation requires V to have growth by the time she turns around, which as we've established, is not reconcilable with my interpretation of the commentary's text. I don't see "this nice theme is only possible with an alternative reading of the text" as a compelling reason to change my reading.


Oh, it's absolutely V being a petty jerk; it just kind of seemed that you thought V was being a petty jerk about rescuing the dirt farmers in particular rather than being a petty jerk to another jerk. Degrees of jerkiness thaat, while slim, will have relevance to later events when establishing a sequence of petty revenge.
Again, I brought up the dirt farmers, and every other example, to establish a pattern of behavior. But you seem to recognize that, so perhaps my harping on it has served a purpose :smallsmile:


Oh, V was a petty, irresponsible jerk up until that point. I'm just pointing to "pained resignation, I'll do this thing even though there's no tangible benefit to me and I'd get away clean if I didn't" as a compelling argument for character growth and a moment of decision rather than calculating petty revenge.

V wasn't suicidal until much, much later, you'll recall.
This actually brings up another telling point against the argument that V turning around constituted a major point of growth. On the same page of DStP commentary, the Giant offers the following observation. "Having absorbed the lessons that Xykon had to teach, V has become stronger and more willing to work with others." Note that this absorption takes place well after V climbed back into the tower. The Giant's silence on the matter of V turning back to heal O-Chul speaks volumes about the two events' importance with respect to V's growth. In fact, throughout the commentary section Power vs. Power it is always Xykon who has an impact on V, never O-Chul, and certainly never V herself. In the commentary, her growth is forced upon her from outside, not generated from within.

Moving on, V wasn't on notice that she could only get away from Xykon by climbing down the tower when she went to heal O-Chul. She only learned that Tsukiko had closed the door leading downstairs in strip 656. Until then, she believed she had a viable escape route. So while she was returning to a room with Xykon in it, she wasn't operating under the presumption that she could not escape the room with Xykon in it. At the time she made the decision, she was under the impression that she could get away as cleanly by going through the door as down the side of the tower.

[oppyu]

In that case our interpretations of the text are pretty much irreconcilable. You want the "that" in the final sentence to modify everything before it from "growth only begins" to "Xykon defeats him/her", while I read "that" to modify only "Xykon defeats him/her," the last thing before "that." In other words, you want the last sentence to read "Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when growth begins for him/her" (I'm paraphrasing the Giant, so I'll stick to his preferred pronoun), and I think it reads "Luckily for V, there's a very patient paladin waiting for the right moment in the room when Xykon defeats him/her. Agree to disagree?
Well, as tempting as arguing about how "that" modifies the previous sentence, and the resultant implications regarding Vaarsuivius' character development and whether or not the O-Chul incident ties into it sounds... yes, I do agree to disagree.

I've also learned that I really want the books, even if they're only available in an antiquated and extremely inconvenient medium that results in price inflation and treevenge.

[Loreweaver15]

There's still the matter of how much bang for V's buck reviving O-Chul will get, i.e. is walking back into the room with the angry, murderous epic-level lich who just handed you your ass while you were the most powerful thing you're aware of (outclassing him, you thought, by a couple orders of magnitude) worth the six seconds it will take him to down O-Chul a second time, and how does that jive with the fact that when V heard Xykon speaking specifically about how he's going to be stepping up O-Chul's torture schedule she had a look of pained resignation rather than smugness or glee?

You don't painfully resign yourself to annoying somebody who really wants to kill you, especially when you've demonstrated that you really, really, really want to run away. What you do painfully resign yourself to is "aw, crap, I'm about to put myself in mortal danger to help somebody else".

[zimmerwald1915]

You don't painfully resign yourself to annoying somebody who really wants to kill you, especially when you've demonstrated that you really, really, really want to run away. What you do painfully resign yourself to is "aw, crap, I'm about to put myself in mortal danger to help somebody else".
First, the "painful resignation" exists only exists in your mind (and admittedly in the minds of a majority of readers). What exists on the page is consideration of an action and resolution to perform that action. The feelings animating the consideration and resolution are left ambiguous in the scene itself.

Second, the use of "you" suggests that you're making an objective judgment about what any old person might do (and inviting your reader to consider themselves the benchmark for normality). But we're not dealing with any old person, or with a member of the Giant's audience. We're dealing with Vaarsuvius, a character with well-established traits and tendencies. One of those tendencies is to hurt or inconvenience people who have hurt or inconvenienced her, sometimes at personal risk. For example, contrary to an upthread assertion, if Miko had read V's "revised invoice," I think it obvious that she would have attacked V, and I think V knew that and felt prepared to meet her attack. "If I put my mind to the task," she said, in reference to blowing Miko up, "I can do exactly that." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html)

[Loreweaver15]

So, your whole argument is predicated on the notion that we took a dramatic camera shift to Vaarsuvius for three panels...deciding to annoy someone.

When the scene was clearly building on V actually listening to what Xykon is saying, as was pointed out by the author himself in the book commentary, and on top of that, you're going through the semantic contortions to turn "Vaarsuvius paid attention to the things Xykon was teaching her and applied them after being defeated" into "Vaarsuvius didn't care about the things Xykon was saying at the time, despite having clearly already been defeated and having her own foolishness and ineffectiveness aptly demonstrated to her."

Look, Zimmerwald, you have perfectly fine grounds for hating V as a person, but you've extended her doing something execrable and vile in the heat of the moment into a story-wide witch hunt attempt at turning everything she's done or said into something selfish and awful despite Rich himself addressing how delusional that was in a forum post. Yeah, I saw that one, by the way. I just...don't know how anybody can have a reasonable debate with you about her character if you refuse to view anything she does without your personal filter.

[zimmerwald1915]

So, your whole argument is predicated on the notion that we took a dramatic camera shift to Vaarsuvius for three panels...deciding to annoy someone.
There could be any number of reasons for the camera to pan to Vaarsuvius. It could be because watching her expression gradually change is more visually interesting than watching Xykon standing in one place for three panels with nothing happening in the background. But really, your criticism is misplaced. I recognize that the scene is ambiguous with regards to V's emotions and motivations. You are the one postulating One True Interpretation.


When the scene was clearly building on V actually listening to what Xykon is saying, as was pointed out by the author himself in the book commentary, and on top of that, you're going through the semantic contortions to turn "Vaarsuvius paid attention to the things Xykon was teaching her and applied them after being defeated" into "Vaarsuvius didn't care about the things Xykon was saying at the time, despite having clearly already been defeated and having her own foolishness and ineffectiveness aptly demonstrated to her."
Where did I say V didn't care about what Xykon was saying? In my response to you I said exactly the opposite: that the only things in the scene which had an impact on V were Xykon's words and actions.


Look, Zimmerwald, you have perfectly fine grounds for hating V as a person, but you've extended her doing something execrable and vile in the heat of the moment into a story-wide witch hunt attempt at turning everything she's done or said into something selfish and awful despite Rich himself addressing how delusional that was in a forum post. Yeah, I saw that one, by the way. I just...don't know how anybody can have a reasonable debate with you about her character if you refuse to view anything she does without your personal filter.
You mean this one?1 Because that comment was about dragging threads off-topic. AFAICT, we're still talking about V's ego, how she normally responds to being one-upped, and whether her response as of the end of Blood Runs in the Family is, and whether her eventual riposte to the IFCC will be, a departure from her normal response. And as far as that goes, I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to discuss that without going back into the comic for examples.

1Link removed since it was not what Loreweaver was referring to.

[Loreweaver15]

No, I was referring to a post some time ago where he addressed you by name. I think it was in one of the numbered discussion threads; I can go hunting, if you'd like, but now that I think on it you did seem to be unaware of the post at the time.

Hrm.

Regardless, there's a difference between "this and only this is what could have happened" (which I rather do think about pained resignation and its implications, but acknowledge that there can be multiple implications for pained resignation) and "it's pretty much impossible for what you're saying to be true based on the in-comic evidence" (which is what I'm actually saying). I'm pretty much just trying to point out how ridiculous your interpretation of the expression on V's face is, and that you're only getting that because you're filtering it through the raging hate-boner you have for the character.

[zimmerwald1915]

No, I was referring to a post some time ago where he addressed you by name. I think it was in one of the numbered discussion threads; I can go hunting, if you'd like, but now that I think on it you did seem to be unaware of the post at the time.
Ah, you mean this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315582&page=7) You're right, the Giant ninja'd me. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315582&page=8)


Regardless, there's a difference between "this and only this is what could have happened" (which I rather do think about pained resignation and its implications, but acknowledge that there can be multiple implications for pained resignation) and "it's pretty much impossible for what you're saying to be true based on the in-comic evidence" (which is what I'm actually saying). I'm pretty much just trying to point out how ridiculous your interpretation of the expression on V's face is, and that you're only getting that because you're filtering it through the raging hate-boner you have for the character.
I outlined the methodology I used to arrive at my position in a number of posts: determine through reading the scene that V's emotions and motivations are left ambiguous, then look for in-comic and in-book evidence outside the scene itself that might help resolve the ambiguity. Was I lying?

Furthermore, I see no evidence beyond "I feel this way" for V's expression indicating "pained resignation" beyond a shadow of a doubt. I know I have a reputation, but removing the user titles and looking purely at methodology, would you trust someone who uses comic and book sources to back up their position or someone who relies on their gut to say that their position is so self-evident it doesn't need backing up?

EDIT: but this is wholly off-topic at this point, so how about this? Do folks think, based on the events of the most recent book, that V is more likely to try to cleverly subvert the Directors' plans and turn their possession of her soul into a liability, or that V is more likely to accept her soul being detained as some sort of penance? Will she start in one of those two places and head toward another? Will her response involve neither?

[Loreweaver15]

I'd be arguing against somebody I'd never heard of using your logic just as strongly as against you. That I know your history just puts the things you're saying in a more parsable framework.

Also, Vaarsuvius hit the closed door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) climbing out the hole and then stopping to decide to go back for O-Chul. Note that the panel where V stops and looks back at Xykon is the panel where he's describing what he's going to be doing to the paladin.

I don't get how you're inferring that V's decisions in those three panels are unrelated to the things being said, except by your own personal bias.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, Vaarsuvius hit the closed door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) climbing out the hole and then stopping to decide to go back for O-Chul. Note that the panel where V stops and looks back at Xykon is the panel where he's describing what he's going to be doing to the paladin.
My mistake. :smallredface: Still, it was a collateral point.


I don't get how you're inferring that V's decisions in those three panels are unrelated to the things being said, except by your own personal bias.
Well, I've explained my thought process to you. Either I'm doing a very bad job of being clear, or you think I'm lying. I assure you I'm not lying.

But hey, how about that upcoming reaction to the next couple of possessions? Will it be acceptance? Turnabout? Something wholly different?

[Loreweaver15]

Oh, sure. You've said "because of reason, reason, and other reason, I think that the emotion being expressed by V at this point is something wholly other than what that facial expression and those contextual pointsneon arrows can mean." I don't think you're lying, and I don't think you're unclear. I just think you're irrational, and wrong. ON THE INTERNET!

Anyways, I proposed a couple weeks back the notion that Roy will be seeking situations where he can bait the fiends into wasting their possessions, and that's still how I think it will happen. V will most likely force one or both of those all by herself, though.

Taking a proactive role in fixing her mistakes is where her character arc leads, methinks.

[zimmerwald1915]

I proposed a couple weeks back the notion that Roy will be seeking situations where he can bait the fiends into wasting their possessions, and that's still how I think it will happen. V will most likely force one or both of those all by herself, though.

Taking a proactive role in fixing her mistakes is where her character arc leads, methinks.
So you think turnabout? That's interesting, since finding a clever turnabout is broadly in line (skipping pointedly over the motivations for finding said turnabouts) with the way V reacted to Z, Laurin, et al. I think V may initially react to the at least second possession (the one taking place in this book being the first) with acceptance. As she demonstrated in 944 and 945, V doesn't know what penance looks like for her yet, and as she said in 843, she thinks she deserves to spend even more time in Hell than the time to which the Directors are entitled. She may, however, learn something interesting during her second possession just as she did in the first, and this knowledge could start her thinking of possible turnabouts. Whether that takes the form of something other than forcing a possession, or clarifying what might best force a possession (Roy and V don't actually know what triggers Cedric is waiting for), or something else entirely, remains to be seen.

[happyman]

Zimmerwald, I used to think you had a point. I didn't completely agree with you on how you looked at V, but I understood how the spell that shall remain unnamed could have turned you against V. I thought you had a valuable, but extreme, perspective.

But...this is just straight-up wrong. It took me three reads over the dead-tree version of DstP to understand the emotional content of that scene in detail (yea, I'm slow that way), and when I did finally understand it, boy did it hit hard. And it is exactly what the other posters here are saying: V had effectively escaped until Xykon's little lecture managed to finally hit V's conscience. He/she went back to save a person he/she realized had earned his/her respect. It was a good act, and almost ended up killing him/her to no gain, as would have been the case without the MitD's intervention.

I know that it makes life easier to think that people who do evil things must always do evil things, but it's just not true. You're just going to have to reconcile that somebody who could commit genocide could also selflessly save another person's life.

[zimmerwald1915]

I know that it makes life easier to think that people who do evil things must always do evil things, but it's just not true. You're just going to have to reconcile that somebody who could commit genocide could also selflessly save another person's life.
With all due respect, why? How does my hard-heartedness hurt you, or any other poster?

[veti]

Please tell me how "you're a jerk to me, so I'll be a jerk right back" doesn't equate to petty revenge?

Charisma is V's dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html). She doesn't do eloquent. When she dislikes someone, her options are basically (a) violence, (b) shunning, (c) lecturing, or (d) passive-aggressive resistance.

Miko was obviously impervious to lecturing, shunning was impossible in the circumstances, and violence had already been tried and failed. That leaves passive-aggression, i.e. "being a jerk".

It's a character flaw, but not necessarily a sign of Evil Incarnate.

[happyman]

With all due respect, why? How does my hard-heartedness hurt you, or any other poster?

I tell you this mostly because I don't want to completely lose your insights into the character, even the parts I disagree with. I don't block people on forums unless they, well, typically, unless they do things that would get them banned from this forum anyway, but I do tend to pay more attention to some people than others.

The longer you insist that anything Varsuuvius does is identically bad, just because it was V that did it, regardless of the evidence, the less you actually have to tell me or anybody else. You just get stuck in pointless fights like this one. I don't think its good for you, I know it isn't good for me (although my loss is minimal; I will just proceed to ignore you), and it definitely isn't helping the people who disagree with you for good reasons.

So, if you actually care about influencing other people like me, rather than winning a pointless debate about fictional characters on an internet forum, I'm just giving you good advice. Consider it a warning from a third party who wishes the level of debate were higher.

[Loreweaver15]

Or, more concisely: your points are based on your own obsessive hatred of the character, not on any legitimate interpretation of events, and while it's not really harmful to deal with you, it is, for lack of a less offensive word, utterly predictable, because you don't bring anything real to the table.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Zimmerwald's interpretation of V may be irrational and insane, but I still find the posts kind of entertaining to read so I wouldn't say they're without value.

[oppyu]

Is this an intervention?

Zimmer, we cannot sit idly by and watch you have dissenting opinions regarding Vaarsuvius. You know who else had differing opinions from us? [pre-emptively scrubbed].

The point is, we're concerned that your crazy V-hating ways are simply too crazy and are causing you to be less appealing to us. You should modify your behaviour to prevent that.

[Rakoa]

We say this because we care about you, Zim.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I say, let Zimmerwald say whatever he wants. As he pointed out, is harms us not, since we don't have to respond to it.

[Keltest]

I say, let Zimmerwald say whatever he wants. As he pointed out, is harms us not, since we don't have to respond to it.

I actually get physically wounded when people walk around being wrong on the internet.:smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I actually get physically wounded when people walk around being wrong on the internet.:smalltongue:
How are you still alive?! :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

How are you still alive?! :smalltongue:

Pocket Cleric.

[Vladier]

I say, let Zimmerwald say whatever he wants. As he pointed out, is harms us not, since we don't have to respond to it.

Oh, but it may as well do! What if there is a person who reads Zimmerwald's posts and can't wrap his head around blatant irrationality of hatred contained in them? What if that person decides that such irrationality cannot be tolerated and that if even one human is capable of it, all of humanity must be put out of their misery for their own good? And then decides to devote his life to production of bio-weaponry to "accidentally" unleash a deadly but hopefully mostly painless disease upon the world?

Now I wouldn't say that I know such a person, but who knows, maybe there is one?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh, but it may as well do! What if there is a person who reads Zimmerwald's posts and can't wrap his head around blatant irrationality of hatred contained in them? What if that person decides that such irrationality cannot be tolerated and that if even one human is capable of it, all of humanity must be put out of their misery for their own good? And then decides to devote his life to production of bio-weaponry to "accidentally" unleash a deadly but hopefully mostly painless disease upon the world?

Now I wouldn't say that I know such a person, but who knows, maybe there is one?
There are many irrational people in this world. Zimmerwald is not the only one. I am irrational from time to time. We all are.

[Loreweaver15]

Oh, Zim's absolutely got the right to post his nonsense. Anybody who's telling him he can't is silly. All I'm trying to do is point out that it IS nonsense.

[FallenFallcrest]

Zimmerwald: I did not actually know that my analysis about when V's real character motivation started was said in the Don't Split the Party introduction, I have never read it.

When the fiends said that all of V's spell slots would be replenished after the Soul Splice effect (#634), what does that mean? I am not too familiar with 3.5 rules. V has magic left, like turning invisible, casting explosive runes (that were prepared this morning, in case you were wondering), ect.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

When the fiends said that all of V's spell slots would be replenished after the Soul Splice effect (#634), what does that mean? I am not too familiar with 3.5 rules. V has magic left, like turning invisible, casting explosive runes (that were prepared this morning, in case you were wondering), ect.
Under the D&D 3.5 rules, casters have a certain amount of spells that they may cast per day, based on what level they are and how much of a certain ability (charisma, intellect, or wisdom) they have. Wizards choose what spells will be in their spell slots ahead of time, usually in the morning. On the day that Vaarsuvius made their deal with the IFCC, they had already used up several of their spell slots. When they accepted the Soul Splice, in addition to getting the spells of those souls, Vaarsuvius was also able to pick new spells to refill their slots.

In short, Vaarsuvius gets a limited number of spells per day, and had already used some. The Soul Splice allowed them to refresh their spells.

[Murk]

I have to say: I actually agree with Zimmerwald, mostly.
If V was person I knew, who'd lived decades (or hundred of comic strips) filled with a personal search for might and revenges, I would indeed say it would be very, very improbable that she suddenly made a twist into positive character growth and do something rather heroic. I would have expected him to live his life in full meanyness, based on the previous pattern - so in that, I agree.

But, hey, it's a story (first and foremost) about character growth, so improbable things are bound to happen. If that includes an asshat suddenly being heroic, well, if Belkar can do it, so can V.
(Which isn't to say the sudden change in character is impossible, rather that I wouldn't expect it, except for the fact that in stories, sometimes unexpected things happen.)

[FallenFallcrest]

Under the D&D 3.5 rules, casters have a certain amount of spells that they may cast per day, based on what level they are and how much of a certain ability (charisma, intellect, or wisdom) they have. Wizards choose what spells will be in their spell slots ahead of time, usually in the morning. On the day that Vaarsuvius made their deal with the IFCC, they had already used up several of their spell slots. When they accepted the Soul Splice, in addition to getting the spells of those souls, Vaarsuvius was also able to pick new spells to refill their slots.

In short, Vaarsuvius gets a limited number of spells per day, and had already used some. The Soul Splice allowed them to refresh their spells.

Okay, thanks. I was unsure of what exactly that meant. I had thought that it meant that V would get all of the spells previously used that day replenished after the splice, which would mean that V would have had a bit better chance at escaping, the goblins in the surrounding kingdom would not be much of a threat. But even if V was at full power, I doubt Xykon would let anyone just leave after that display. Xykon would want V slowly tortured to the point of breaking, killed, brought back to life, and then have the process repeated over and over again until he got bored.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Glad I could help! After the Soul Splice ended Vaarsuvius had only the spells that they had prepared earlier, minus the ones they had already used. Sadly, these spells were not enough to defeat Xykon.