About Manga and Anime ...

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I don't hate Anime and Manga. In fact, Paprika (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0851578/) is one of my favorite animated movies. I just wonder why it is so popular.

Animation and comics from Japan will almost always use some sort of anime/manga style, where most characters have large eyes, a small nose, and features that morph with their emotions. This isn't bad or anything, but I'm curious about why it has become so widespread in both Japan and North America.

Part of the appeal probably lies in the subjective portrayal of characters and environments. When a character is moving quickly, their surroundings might become a blur of lines to reflect this. If a character is angry, their head might swell to several times its usual size. Giant beads of sweat and amorphous faces never did much for me, but I can see how that sort of thing could help to tell character-driven stories.

Still, DeviantArt is filled with manga, to the point where the amount of such artwork is produced on a level disproportionate to the amount of good Anime in existence. Maybe 5% of the anime I've seen has been good enough to draw fan-art for.

Why has it captured the public imagination in both America and Japan on such a massive scale?

[Comet]

I'm not any kind of authority on the subject, nor have I really followed anime or manga for a couple of years, but...

There's a lot of it. Japanese fiction, I mean. I feel the industry over the there is just primed for quantity in a way that's pretty unique. This also means there's a lot of variation and, as such, something for everyone.

The exotic-ness of it all also plays a part, for sure. The aesthetic is just different enough to feel exciting. Though, again, there's a lot of different anime and manga out there so pointing to a single aesthetic as an explanation doesn't quite work.

[Eldan]

All the things you mentioned? I hate them. And I still think of myself as an anime fan.

And yet, as soon as a show has giant drops of sweat or vanishing backgrounds or chibis, I'll probably drop it.

There's other reasons. First of all, it often just seems that no one outside of Japan makes any Science Fiction or Fantasy series, while some of the stuff that comes out of there is very, very creaive. Then, there is a strong focus on the story. Developed arcs, continuing stories, and often well-written ones aimed at adults. Plus, the artwork (and hte music) can be very detailed and absolutely gorgeously done.

[Knaight]

This is U.S focused, as my knowledge on Canada, Mexico, and Central America is more limited - though I suspect it's highly applicable to Canada, given the cultural overlap, and I suspect the use of "North America" largely means the U.S. and Canada.

As for popularity in Japan, that's pretty explainable. Following WWII, American culture began to have major influence in Japan, in a number of ways. American food started showing up, baseball became a very major sport, so on and so forth. This included American animation and the attached art style, which at the time was dominated by Disney. Early anime had a distinct Disney vibe, though it usually didn't have the technical artistry involved (largely on account of Disney being a massive corporation with a budget that utterly dwarfed and Japanese animation studio). Once animation had a foothold, it was able to keep it, particularly as the genres handled and art styles involved quickly diversified.

Meanwhile, in the U.S. Disney was still dominant. Animation was viewed as largely for children, and was limited in what it handled. This opened up in later decades, with obvious openings being in the development of Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, both of which did at least expand beyond Disney's limited art style and limited content (consisting mostly of bowdlerized fairy tales). On top of that, shows that aimed to be humorous, targeted at an older audience caught on. The Simpsons opened the flood gates, with it, South Park, Futurama, Family Guy, and King of the Hill being examples of some of the bigger shows. Animated comic books, basically all from Marvel and DC also began to crop up, along with things in their style. Batman, TMNT, Thundercats, and even animated Dr. Suess novels all fit in this category.

This is still extremely limited though. The bulk of them were children's cartoons aimed at young demographics even by the standards of media for children, and then a raft of alleged comedy shows with only a handful of creators behind them, along with animations pulled from Marvel and DC along with others in the same style*. This leaves a giant gap in animation, which could easily be filled. Anime was highly developed by then, had the potential to be fairly familiar (Disney was a major part in its creation), and happened to be what filled in the gap. Suddenly, there was genre fiction. There was animation aimed at teens and older adults that was actually serious, or that used humor of a different kind than the gags favored by American shows. There were long running shows that focused more on overarching plots than individual episodes, and they didn't even include the set of Marvel and DC superheroes that plenty of people simply didn't care about.

Comic books had a similar scenario. They were fairly varied in the U.S. near the end of the dime novel era, but the Hays Comic Code stamped most of them out, leaving Marvel and DC to basically take the industry. They then proceeded to produce a handful of superhero comics which featured the same few characters over and over, in the same few artistic styles. Again, there was a gaping void for anything outside of their style to come in, and again, Manga was a somewhat familiar entity that was highly developed that could push into the market.

Fan art has other considerations coming into it. The big thing is that it is largely line art, which is a lot easier to get into than something like realistic portrait drawing. Far more people sketch on some paper with a pencil than actually use paint, and while realistic portrait drawing is very much doable with a standard no. 2 pencil and standard paper, it requires a lot more technical skill to do well and thus a lot more dedication to get into. Line art is easy, particularly if aping a particular style, and thus you get lots of it on Deviant Art - including some that's very good, simply because an artist started with line art, got much more serious, and happened to stick with it. The low barrier to entry is a big factor here, and that exists outside of the factors that popularized consumption of manga and anime.

*It's also worth noting that the majority of these humor shows aimed at adults are pretty much long lists of cheap gags. I can say, personally, that the utter drek produced by Seth MacFarlane while he pretended to be competent drove me away from American animation, with Anime being an obvious catch basin there, though I'm not really much of an Anime fan.

[SiuiS]

Still, DeviantArt is filled with manga,


This is because it is a simplistic art form with built in shorthand (:3, ^_^", :-/, T.T, XD, etc) that produces recognizable and laudable work with the minimum amount of effort.

The question "why do beginning artists fill an art website with very easy to make art and not the stuff that takes upwards of twelve hours to paint" is much easier to answer when it is rephrased. :smallsmile:

[Kitten Champion]

This is because it is a simplistic art form with built in shorthand (:3, ^_^", :-/, T.T, XD, etc) that produces recognizable and laudable work with the minimum amount of effort.

The question "why do beginning artists fill an art website with very easy to make art and not the stuff that takes upwards of twelve hours to paint" is much easier to answer when it is rephrased. :smallsmile:

That, and people are actually fans of the other 95% of anime and manga series of which Hobbit is not. This being a crazy ol' world, things like that happen.

The fact that Deviant Art is loaded with My Little Pony and Adventure Time fan-art could be shrugged off as merely being a convenient source for inspiration as well, and that's certainly part of it, but I'm fairly certain there's more to it than that.

[Math_Mage]

Why manga/anime in the US? Because it offered:
-Comics, when America's mainstream comics scene went through its major bust
-Animation, when America's mainstream animated TV scene went through its major bust
-SF/fantasy, when America's mainstream SF/fantasy TV scene went through its...wait, there never was a mainstream SF/fantasy TV scene in the US, short of Trekkies.

Manga and anime were in the right place at the right time to wedge themselves firmly in the American market. I can't answer beyond that.

[dehro]

Still, DeviantArt is filled with manga, to the point where the amount of such artwork is produced on a level disproportionate to the amount of good Anime in existence. Maybe 5% of the anime I've seen has been good enough to draw fan-art for.
wild guess is that a lot of kids like to draw and manga is easier to draw than other styles of comics, especially for a rookie artist. also, manga tends to be targeted (at least in the western notion) towards younger public.. who also have more time on their hands than people with a regular job...
stuff like one punch, naruto, dragonball is mostly for kids.. more so than many of the average superhero comic.
also, the format is more accessible to new readers, because superhero comics, in my very limited exposure to them, tend to be sprawled with pages full of other stuff, like ads or articles or other comics.. whereas more often than not, a manga is one chapter of a story, or a full story, and very little else.. which makes it easier on the younger readers.
once they're hooked, they'll keep reading manga..whether they expand to superheroes or not, helped by the fact that there's plenty of more adult manga too.
parents may find it less menacing too:
compare
http://mitici80.com/files/2010/08/hello-spank.jpg
and http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new-thumbnail/ehow/images/a02/4t/52/choose-anime-children-800x800.jpg
with http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131834/3524588-9234877432-wolve.jpg
and don't tell them that anime also means http://otaklab.biz/nekotv/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/6606_berserk_hd_wallpapers_sword.jpg.. and there you have it... a less informed parent "knows" that superhero comics tend to be violent and mature... and may be less opposed to manga, out of sheer ignorance.

[BWR]

As others have already said: variety, availability and volume. For various reasons, there is a lot of A&M out there and you can find a lot of stuff (themes, stories, elements, etc.) that's harder to find in more traditional Western comic and animation. Not only is there something for every taste, no matter how weird, for Western consumers there is the element of the exotic: stories and art are different than what we are used to from local stuff.
I consume a fair amount of the stuff, but mostly because the really good western comics/animation tends to be rare. In any given top 10 list, my preferences will probably be mostly Western stuff, but since there is so much more A&M there is always something to read or watch no matter what I'm in the mood for, always something new to try.

[SiuiS]

That, and people are actually fans of the other 95% of anime and manga series of which Hobbit is not. This being a crazy ol' world, things like that happen.

The fact that Deviant Art is loaded with My Little Pony and Adventure Time fan-art could be shrugged off as merely being a convenient source for inspiration as well, and that's certainly part of it, but I'm fairly certain there's more to it than that.

Noncomparable; my little pony and adventure time are not entire art genres. I would hazard that simplicity of style while maintaining directness and nuance is indeed part of why all three promulgate.

[Kitten Champion]

Noncomparable; my little pony and adventure time are not entire art genres. I would hazard that simplicity of style while maintaining directness and nuance is indeed part of why all three promulgate.

Chainsaw specified anime he'd seen and believed wasn't worthy of fan-art, not anime as art in general. Fan art is by definition derived from a work someone is enthusiastic about, and not original creations.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Why manga/anime in the US? Because it offered:
-Comics, when America's mainstream comics scene went through its major bust
-Animation, when America's mainstream animated TV scene went through its major bust
-SF/fantasy, when America's mainstream SF/fantasy TV scene went through its...wait, there never was a mainstream SF/fantasy TV scene in the US, short of Trekkies.

Manga and anime were in the right place at the right time to wedge themselves firmly in the American market. I can't answer beyond that.
That sounds like the best answer, really, especially when it comes to animation. If you like animation and want something besides Disney, the answer will almost always be "anime", because they don't seem to have nearly as much of a preconceived notion about what stories should and shouldn't be told via animation. In Japan, it seems that the production ideal is far closer to "animation is just another way to make a TV series". (I know it's not there, but it's much closer than in America.)

Even when America produces an animated series that falls outside of the norm, something that could be produced live-action, it has a highly-distinctive visual style. (e.g., Family Guy or Archer)

"Manga/anime is newbie-level easy" isn't a good answer when plenty of American comics have styles that are similarly simple to draw. American cartoons, even more so. Though, I will say that manga/anime style provides an easy way to have decently stylized characters that look good.

[Eldan]

That sounds like the best answer, really, especially when it comes to animation. If you like animation and want something besides Disney, the answer will almost always be "anime", because they don't seem to have nearly as much of a preconceived notion about what stories should and shouldn't be told via animation. In Japan, it seems that the production ideal is far closer to "animation is just another way to make a TV series". (I know it's not there, but it's much closer than in America.)

I'd say animation has some advantages when it comes to certain styles and genres. Ridiculous action, fantasy and scifi... anything that has complicated effects. Having a martial arts fight where people also spit fire at each other, while standing on a space ship? Have fun doing that with CGI or practical effects and making it look half-decent.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's very true! (One of the reasons I've thought that Mistborn would work best as an anime...that and some of the narrative stylings...and the end.)

[erikun]

I'd like to note that, when anime first appeared commercially in the U.S., we were seeing Sturgeon's law in full effect. Complain all you'd like about Dragon Ball Z or Sailor Moon, but I think that if you turned on a random TV show on Cartoon Network today, you probably wouldn't find much better - and it probably wouldn't be as exciting, either. Even now, we still have some good titles like Berserk and Spice and Wolf being produced, which means that unless you spend a lot of time with fansubbed anime or manga, it will appear that the average quality of anime/manga is higher than that of U.S. cartoons and comics.

As Knaight mentioned, western animation is aimed primarily at kids. Western comics is aimed primarily at teenagers or slightly older. Japanese media tends to include audiences of all ages. As such, if someone is interested in animation, their selections are rather limited. They'll either need to pick family-friendly animation with themes aimed at children, or anime and related material.

As for why people draw fanart in an anime-style? Because it's popular and simple to draw. A lot of anime actually simplifies designs for the specific purpose of allowing multiple different artists to draw a character consistently (well, somewhat) and so it's not surprising that people would find the style easy to draw.

[Eldariel]

My personal reason: The biggest draw of Japanese media for me is that it handles so many more interesting and more absurd premises than what would ever go through in the West. Mecha was the thing that originally got me into it, alongside proper magic knight types, which I couldn't just seem to find in the Western Media (conveniently they happened to air Magic Knight Rayearth in Finland at the time). You just don't see shows with completely unrealistic giant robots duking it out with absurd weapons in the west. You also don't see shows based on virtual realities or combat tennis or capturing cards or sport tank warfare or war with clothing or...y'know, anything.

Japanese media embraces weirdness and absurd topics, which makes for a very interesting viewing experience. Honestly, I think their biggest weakness is describing reality (Graveyard of the Fireflies or not), which is okay since that's about all I've seen on TV for most of my life; something grounded somewhere near reality with perhaps supernatural mixed in. But I just can't see any western organization making...say Girls und Panzer.

[tensai_oni]

Anime's popularity in the west has been in decline lately. OP, you are 10 years too late - anime's popularity and mainstream-ness now is only a shade of how it used to be back then.

Also like everyone else said here, anime has less inbuilt preconceptions than western animation. American and European cartoons come in two varieties: for kids, or comedy shows for adults. There are exceptions but they are rare. If you want something else, you need to look at anime. Even those two genres come with less preconceptions than they do in the west. Good luck seeing a western kids' show with blood or people dying for example.

As for DeviantArt, it's weeaboo central. I'll leave it at that.

[Terraoblivion]

There are some things worth keeping in mind here. One is that anime and manga are not comparable artforms. Anime broadly speaking falls into two categories, children's shows and late night entertainment for nerds. Some movies and shows fall outside these definitions, but they're overwhelmingly the case. Manga on the other hand is a general medium for general audience with works as diverse as you'd expect based on that. It even gets used for things like workplace safety instructions and training manuals for tasks that can reasonably be helped by visual illustration.

This means that while anime of a given time period tends towards a handful of relatively uniform looks, though the temporal perspective is important to keep in mind given the great changes over the years, manga can look like virtually anything.

The other important thing to keep in mind is that western perceptions of both media is based on the specific anime that got popular on Adult Swim and Toonami in the early 2000s. The typical "anime" style is really the style of a handful of popular shows from the late 90s and while some traits are recurring, the large eyes and the small and/or pointy noses for example, a lot of the specifics are really just the style of a specific period. Manga didn't reach English speaking audiences to any large degree until several years after this and is still more niche than anime among English-language nerddom. Manga is larger in countries like France and Germany, for example, but highly oriented towards non-nerdy teenage girls in both places, which is reflected in which works get translated.

I'd also like to be cynical and say that the most successful anime and manga tends to be rather bad stuff. I don't just mean that it's kid's stuff, children's entertainment can be excellent and interesting for people of all ages, but often long-running, low budget stuff. Stuff like Naruto, Bleach and such just isn't very good, but it's the entry level stuff and appears to still be the most popular and visible kind of anime. The good stuff tends to only really be known to people who are actively a part of a general anime fandom, rather than the fandom of a specific show. It also tends to be short and end quickly, which often leaves it forgotten by a fandom that has gotten obsessed with keeping up with the latest for some reason.

Finally, I'd like to point out that fanart on deviantart might not be the best indicator of what an art style is capable of. After all, it is overwhelmingly amateurs making amateur art, often their first forays. Shaky quality, stiff poses and general simplicity is to be expected in that context, regardless of the merits of the original medium.

[Math_Mage]

There are some things worth keeping in mind here. One is that anime and manga are not comparable artforms. Anime broadly speaking falls into two categories, children's shows and late night entertainment for nerds. Some movies and shows fall outside these definitions, but they're overwhelmingly the case. Manga on the other hand is a general medium for general audience with works as diverse as you'd expect based on that. It even gets used for things like workplace safety instructions and training manuals for tasks that can reasonably be helped by visual illustration.

This means that while anime of a given time period tends towards a handful of relatively uniform looks, though the temporal perspective is important to keep in mind given the great changes over the years, manga can look like virtually anything.
Is manga in the realm of fiction comparable to anime? If so, is it useful to make everyone say "anime or *manga in the realm of fiction*" every time they want to refer to it?

[Terraoblivion]

No, they're not comparable. Anime is for nerds and little kids only. There are manga for any conceivable subculture, any age, any gender and so on. If a demographic exists in Japan, there's manga for it. Anime has very limited diversity compared to this. It's just that the manga reaching English speaking nerds tend to either be the source for anime, adaptations of anime or similar to manga that is one of those two.

[Don Julio Anejo]

No, they're not comparable. Anime is for nerds and little kids only. There are manga for any conceivable subculture, any age, any gender and so on. If a demographic exists in Japan, there's manga for it. Anime has very limited diversity compared to this. It's just that the manga reaching English speaking nerds tend to either be the source for anime, adaptations of anime or similar to manga that is one of those two.
Pretty sure there are quite a few mature, interesting shows for an adult (well, mostly adult male) audience. Hell, this is the main appeal of anime for a lot of people: you can tell stories in a visual medium that aren't done so in the west for whatever reasons (budget, not enough interest or mainstream appeal), for whom kid shows like Naruto hold very little appeal but shows like Black Lagoon, Ghost in the Shell, or PlanetES do.

Edit: and by "for mature audiences" I don't mean ecchi, I mean things that would be the anime equivalent of live-action drama/action series (i.e. 24, Battlestar Galactica, Hannibal, etc).

[Terraoblivion]

Those are for nerds. I said that anime was for kids and nerds, so listing a bunch of nerd oriented shows is completely in line with what I said. Mainstream Japan wouldn't be caught dead watching any of those.

[Knaight]

Complain all you'd like about Dragon Ball Z or Sailor Moon, but I think that if you turned on a random TV show on Cartoon Network today, you probably wouldn't find much better - and it probably wouldn't be as exciting, either.

It's not just Cartoon Network either. They produce a lot of valueless dreck (Chowder, really?), but I'd rather watch just about anything that came out of them than, say American Dad or Family Guy.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Those are for nerds. I said that anime was for kids and nerds, so listing a bunch of nerd oriented shows is completely in line with what I said. Mainstream Japan wouldn't be caught dead watching any of those.
Ghost in the Shell? I'll grant you. Black Lagoon? As far as western (well, Anglophone) sensibilities go, it's as far from a non-nerd show as you can get. I don't know who the target audience is in Japan, but I've met a few completely non-nerd people that have actually seen and liked the show (my party animal/corporate douche/outdoorsy hipster vegan athletic guy circle of friends is way larger than the 3 or 4 people I know that openly watch anime, and I'm a closet geek IRL).

Shows like this are what appeals to people who merely consider anime as a story telling medium and aren't {scrubbed} who will watch anything just because it came out of Japan (I have a friend like that too).

[tensai_oni]

You're talking from a western perspective. Since it is based heavily on rule of cool and over the top action movie tropes, if anything it makes Black Lagoon even LESS likely to be popular for the Japanese mainstream viewer.

[Terraoblivion]

Ghost in the Shell? I'll grant you. Black Lagoon? As far as western (well, Anglophone) sensibilities go, it's as far from a non-nerd show as you can get. I don't know who the target audience is in Japan, but I've met a few completely non-nerd people that have actually seen and liked the show (my party animal/corporate douche/outdoorsy hipster vegan athletic guy circle of friends is way larger than the 3 or 4 people I know that openly watch anime, and I'm a closet geek IRL).

You know, judging Japanese marketing demographics based on the tastes of Americans might be considered a rather flimsy basis. In any case, somewhat self-aware ultraviolence is a nerd thing in Japan.

Not just that, if a season of anime is 12 episodes long it's basically guaranteed to be for nerds. It also didn't air on any of the public tv stations, being relegated to cable which is also a sign of focusing on a more niche appeal. Similarly, the visual style is heavily slanted towards the visual stylings of late night anime, which it almost certainly is thanks to Japanese broadcasting standards forcing censorship on it if it were to have a daytime or primetime slot, rather than towards children's shows, family-oriented shows or Disney.

Also, to put it bluntly, it's anime that isn't for kids. Mainstream Japan doesn't watch anime unless it's a kid's show they're watching with their family and consider it for nerds by definition. Contrary to popular belief Japan has just as much of an animation ghetto as the US, quite possibly more of one, it just doesn't apply to nerds who do all kinds of things that mainstream Japan disapproves of.

In any case, I'd recommend making your statements on these matters based on at least cursory study of the Japanese market and the media concepts the Japanese works with, not your own personal feelings. It's generally helpful.

[Don Julio Anejo]

In any case, I'd recommend making your statements on these matters based on at least cursory study of the Japanese market and the media concepts the Japanese works with, not your own personal feelings. It's generally helpful.
Except the original poster clearly asked his question in the context of the West and how/why people like anime here rather than how its viewed by general population in Japan. If it comes down to it, I find 90% of my media on the Internet and honestly only care about its premise and quality rather than how/when/where it aired. Most under-30 people I know are pretty much the same way in Canada, and even my parents are slowly drifting towards Netflix and other sites that stream shows, rather than watching stuff on TV. Pretty sure it's not exclusive to Canada.

Therefore, if a show gets enough word-of-mouth to get some traction, a lot of people will watch it just for that (i.e. Game of Thrones) even if the concept doesn't necessarily appeal to them. Conversely - someone may be looking for a specific premise (i.e. modern day pirates or treasure hunters) and then try out anything that fits the bill (Black Lagoon will fit just as well as Clive Cussler novels).

[Terraoblivion]

Except the original poster clearly asked his question in the context of the West and how/why people like anime here rather than how its viewed by general population in Japan.

You missed what I was saying with the original post and contradicted what you took issue with in it. I was trying to point out that you can't treat anime and manga as equivalent because manga is far more diverse. You took issue with me saying that anime was made for kids and nerds, how Americans receive it has nothing to do with what demographics it's made for.

[Math_Mage]

No, they're not comparable. Anime is for nerds and little kids only. There are manga for any conceivable subculture, any age, any gender and so on. If a demographic exists in Japan, there's manga for it. Anime has very limited diversity compared to this. It's just that the manga reaching English speaking nerds tend to either be the source for anime, adaptations of anime or similar to manga that is one of those two.
Hm. Do you have advice for stepping outside that mold in my manga reading?

[VariSami]

Those are for nerds. I said that anime was for kids and nerds, so listing a bunch of nerd oriented shows is completely in line with what I said. Mainstream Japan wouldn't be caught dead watching any of those.

Based on what I have heard previously, I accept your claim as generally true. However, there is one exception which might apply although I may be completely mistaken. How about adaptations of manga which have had a particularly wide cultural impact? As you noted, manga is not similarly restricted in its audience. Thus, it would be conceivable that adaptations to different media, such as the TV, would be acceptable to the readers. The reason I emphasize manga with a wide cultural impact is simply because a fine example is available at the time: the new adaptation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders will begin airing in April. As a manga, Jojo's was shounen at the time Stardust Crusaders was first made and admittedly, I did not particularly enjoy that arc. However, to my understanding, it was what established JoJo's as a classic to Japanese audiences. Since the series has always hinged on what is and is not befitting of a shounen manga and the newest arcs are actually officially seinen, its primary audience is unlikely to be kids and because of its popularity, it is most definitely not limited to nerds in Japan (in the West, it most definitely is due to lack of recent commercial translations).

So basically, I simply pose the question: Could allowances to the general rule be made for the anime adaptations of manga which are popular outside the spheres of Japanese kids and nerds? My assumption would be that if not, it likely has something to do with what is conceived appropriate for non-kids and non-nerds. Thus, the prophecy would fulfill itself by assimilating the fringe cases because people generalize according to customs.

[Rodin]

Why manga/anime in the US? Because it offered:
-Comics, when America's mainstream comics scene went through its major bust
-Animation, when America's mainstream animated TV scene went through its major bust
-SF/fantasy, when America's mainstream SF/fantasy TV scene went through its...wait, there never was a mainstream SF/fantasy TV scene in the US, short of Trekkies.

Manga and anime were in the right place at the right time to wedge themselves firmly in the American market. I can't answer beyond that.

On anime, I would add to this with

-It isn't that people are making a choice, but rather that there is no equivalent to choose between.

The closest thing that the U.S. has is the "masked superhero" genre. If that isn't your cup of tea, you're boned. U.S. Sci-Fi/Fantasy tends to hew much more towards X-Files, with the focus being on individual self-contained plots and government conspiracies instead of sweeping plotlines. Game of Thrones is the exception, not the rule, and nobody has had any success with fully space-based shows since Star Trek and even Stargate is now off-air. I couldn't even tell you of a cyberpunk show.

More than that, the "grand adventure" just isn't prevalent. It's either a sitcom, a suspenseful thriller, or a cop show.

When you have zero interest in American television, you start looking elsewhere. I watch a combination of British and Japanese TV, with the only American stuff being Mythbusters, the Daily Show/Colbert Report, and Game of Thrones.

[Terraoblivion]

So basically, I simply pose the question: Could allowances to the general rule be made for the anime adaptations of manga which are popular outside the spheres of Japanese kids and nerds?

No. The choice of anime means you're targeting either kids or nerds, no matter how popular the original was.

Also, speaking of Jojo's specifically, I'm not sure anybody other than nerds still care about it. It's old and old things tend to be forgotten for the new hotness. This is especially true in Japan where there is no real tradition for either home video or keeping manga lying around. They don't have a very home-based culture and with the tiny apartments buying large collections of stuff to keep around just isn't a thing they really do, outside of nerds who has a culture heavily centered around their purchases of merchandise. This is a pretty distinct contrast to Americans who are absolutely packrats compared to what I'm used to as a Danish person, something that's probably at least in part due to large homes, very little vacation time and mostly drab suburbs around them lessening incentives to go out. Not just that, in my experience Americans are more concerned with things like what's classic a lot more than Europeans and observing that the Japanese are obsessed with novelty is practically mandatory in describing the country.

So I think it is very likely that even if Jojo had mainstream popularity, which I don't know or if it was only nerd popularity, the mainstream has moved on anyway and there was no basis for a mainstream reimagining. And the choice of anime means that the new series is aimed at nerds, given that modern shounen has moved on and doesn't have room for something like Jojo for kids.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So basically, I simply pose the question: Could allowances to the general rule be made for the anime adaptations of manga which are popular outside the spheres of Japanese kids and nerds?

There are manga TV adaptations that have a wide audience, but they're generally live action adaptations. Anime that really become popular outside of the anime audience get remade as live action and they're not 'battle manga' like Jojo which has a limited audience due to its genre. If you want to look at kids manga that are popular enough to escape the ghetto you have to look at the likes of Hanna Yori Dango or Great Teacher Onizuka with their live action adaptations (the Korean unlicensed live action rip off of Hanna Yori Dango was even more ridiculously succesful)

[Psyren]

Why has it captured the public imagination in both America and Japan on such a massive scale?

The primary reason is that western animation is still trapped in the animation age ghetto (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimationAgeGhetto) in spite of Pixar's valiant efforts over the past decade. To Japan, animation is just another medium for telling stories. In America, every single animated movie with even a modicum of quality still gets f****ing reviews that proclaim "animation isn't just for kids anymore!" (http://www.pluggedin.com/familyroom/articles/2010/animatedmoviesarentjustforkidsanymore.aspx) - like the fact that you can tell stories for adults by drawing them is some kind of mindblowing revelation that needs to be shared. So, those of us who realized this basic fact decades prior turned to the animation of the country that had also figured it out, and ended up accepting the cultural quirkiness that went along with it.

And yes, I too love Paprika (only natural since I also love Inception), even though it really dragged in some places and the third act "boss fight" was pretty ridiculous.

Also, what Math_Mage said.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Terra: That's rather interesting stuff. I learned a new thing.

[Terraoblivion]

But they do have that ghetto Psyren. It's part of the cycle of anime being for nerds and kids. Only nerds are willing to violate it, which in turn gets used to stigmatize people who do as immature nerds, ensuring that only nerds will and so on. Keep in mind that Japanese views of otaku are a lot more hostile than American or European views of nerds and a big part of that is the idea that otaku are immature.

[Psyren]

But they do have that ghetto Psyren. It's part of the cycle of anime being for nerds and kids. Only nerds are willing to violate it, which in turn gets used to stigmatize people who do as immature nerds, ensuring that only nerds will and so on. Keep in mind that Japanese views of otaku are a lot more hostile than American or European views of nerds and a big part of that is the idea that otaku are immature.

For starters, if they had that stigma, this would primarily refer to the 80's/90's timeframe. Once you get into the early 2000s and beyond it appears to have largely vanished, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku#Subculture) with the term "otaku" gaining mainstream acceptance, including Prime Minister Aso's famous comment.

But more importantly, even while that stigma was in place it didn't stop them from telling vibrant stories with mature themes. Something like Trigun or Cowboy Bebop would quite simply never have been greenlit in the USA; hell, they still might not. And aside from the general "wut" that was Evangelion, it too dealt with themes that you just would not see in western animation.

It wasn't just the general puerility of western animation that irritated me though, it was the vast extremes in the other direction that cartoonists had to veer down, who wanted their work to be aimed at adult audiences. In the 90's, literally the only way you could avoid getting your work slapped with a "for kids" label was to saturate it in boobs and gore to the point that it became farcical, and even then parents would write horrifying Helen Lovejoy-style letters trying to get the cartoonists fired. See also: Heavy Metal, Spawn etc.

[Mx.Silver]

But more importantly, even while that stigma was in place it didn't stop them from telling vibrant stories with mature themes.
Well of course it wouldn't, because that 'ghetto' is children and older nerds.
Animation in the Anglosphere, by contrast, is largely seen as being for kids, with an eye kept open to the parents of kids who might be watching as well. The potential older audience of animation nerds hasn't generally been catered to, because most executives wouldn't have thought thought it worth trying to in the first place.

The diversity in story is not evidence that Animation lacks a 'ghetto' in Japan; it can be just as easily explained by the fact that said ghetto is generally acknowledged, by the people who actually fund the works, to include an audience who aren't children and whom it is worth making things specifically for.

[Terraoblivion]

The stigma didn't exist in the 80s for the simple reason that nobody other than otaku knew what the term even meant. There was a Japanese documentary about it in the late 80s or early 90s where the random people interviewed on the streets simply stared blankly at the interviewer before asking what it even meant when asked about otaku. It was simply titled Otaku, try checking it out, it's illuminating stuff. Also, if you had actually read your own link, you'd have noticed that it both says the term is unqualified negative and that hostility towards otaku had a massive increase after a murder in 2004 that the media jumped on to declare that it was probably an otaku.

I'd also suggest avoiding putting too much stock in political declarations. They are essentially all used in selling Japan to other countries where popculture has become the primary hallmark of Japan and a major export industry. Shifting Japanese governments have been very aware of the economic value of this and have tried to play the part around foreigners. If you want to focus on how politicians view otaku, things like the Tokyo anti-obscenity legislation a few years ago and how it was presented to the public is more useful. Internal Japanese debate and politics is more useful than foreign declarations. Just like in any other country, really. You could see the same thing with how the US treated rock'n'roll in the 50s, for example.

Not just that, the term is multifaceted and has begun to be used about things other than the popculture fans it originated as being about. Not all aspects are equally stigmatized, but otaku without a qualifier and a number of specific kinds are. And to be honest, as long as otaku keep being a major market for shows fetishizing younger sisters and preteen girls, hug pillows, figures with clothes that can be removed to show that they're anatomically correct and so on, it'll be hard for it to vanish. As long as things that most people consider immensely creepy are important, popular parts of otaku culture it's hard for otaku culture not to be considered creepy. Quite rightfully so, for that matter, because those things being as accepted as they are means that otaku culture is creepy.

All those good things? They were meant for otaku and mainstream Japan brushed them off as immature crap for manchildren without even learning what any of them was. Not that I'd say Trigun was particularly mature or deep and that a lot of people think so says more about the lack of acquaintance with the philosophical discipline of ethics on their part than it does about the profundity of the show.

Oh, and Heavy Metal wasn't a product of 90s excess. The movie was made in 1981 and based on a British comic magazine that debuted in 1975.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Re: anime and nerds. Just talked to a friend that's doing grad school in Japan (workaholic socialite party girl that goes clubbing like every second night, so you can't really accuse her of being a nerd beyond studying biochemistry). Her take on it: anime is fairly mainstream, to the same point as Lord of the Rings or older Star Trek shows are in North America. I.e. aimed mostly at nerds, but quite a few non-nerds (including a lot of her friends there) still watch and like it, but don't make a huge deal out of it, so it gets drowned out in the mass of loud nerds who are extremely vocal about things they like.

Though she had more things to say about complete and utter weirdness of television in general.


I couldn't even tell you of a cyberpunk show.
Check out Continuum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/Continuum) (though it's more of a Canadian show, but still really good). City cop from an oppressive dystopian corporate-run future gets caught up with a group of terrorists who travel back in time to modern-day Vancouver in an attempt to prevent that future from ever occurring. A time-travel conspiracy slowly unravels, more factions appear, and terrorists, for all their ruthless and over-the-top methods are quite grey in their goals (if not actions).

[mallorean_thug]

Based on what I have heard previously, I accept your claim as generally true. However, there is one exception which might apply although I may be completely mistaken. How about adaptations of manga which have had a particularly wide cultural impact? As you noted, manga is not similarly restricted in its audience. Thus, it would be conceivable that adaptations to different media, such as the TV, would be acceptable to the readers. The reason I emphasize manga with a wide cultural impact is simply because a fine example is available at the time: the new adaptation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders will begin airing in April. As a manga, Jojo's was shounen at the time Stardust Crusaders was first made and admittedly, I did not particularly enjoy that arc. However, to my understanding, it was what established JoJo's as a classic to Japanese audiences. Since the series has always hinged on what is and is not befitting of a shounen manga and the newest arcs are actually officially seinen, its primary audience is unlikely to be kids and because of its popularity, it is most definitely not limited to nerds in Japan (in the West, it most definitely is due to lack of recent commercial translations).

So basically, I simply pose the question: Could allowances to the general rule be made for the anime adaptations of manga which are popular outside the spheres of Japanese kids and nerds? My assumption would be that if not, it likely has something to do with what is conceived appropriate for non-kids and non-nerds. Thus, the prophecy would fulfill itself by assimilating the fringe cases because people generalize according to customs.

You'd have to show that the anime for Jojo's is actually aimed beyond that demographic. As Stardust Crusaders is airing at 12:30 Friday night/Saturday Morning, it definitely isn't. After midnight is pretty squarely in the older nerd territory, especially on a Friday night. And Bluray sales for the first season did well, averaging about 19,000 per volume which is really good for a late night anime, but are still peanuts compared to its manga sales or sales for actual mainstream shows.

[VariSami]

You'd have to show that the anime for Jojo's is actually aimed beyond that demographic. As Stardust Crusaders is airing at 12:30 Friday night/Saturday Morning, it definitely isn't. After midnight is pretty squarely in the older nerd territory, especially on a Friday night. And Bluray sales for the first season did well, averaging about 19,000 per volume which is really good for a late night anime, but are still peanuts compared to its manga sales or sales for actual mainstream shows.

Well, as Terraoblivion pointed out already - my choice of example was questionable to begin with. The point was really not whether or not JoJo's itself fits the criterion but whether or not allowances could be made for adaptations of popular manga. I used JoJo's simply because a) it is one of the things on top of my mind right now and b) because I have heard claims that it has had quite a big impact on Japanese popular culture (at least historically).

While my personal contact with the Japanese everyday life is quite limited, I do have some friends quite well acquainted with it. Don Julio Anejo's description seems somewhat apt and compatible with the conception I have formulated according to the information provided by my friends. As I mentioned earlier, I still accept Terraoblivion's claim on a general level. What bothers me about it, however, is how it seems to lack nuances. How do we designate children and nerds? I am well aware of the Japanese denotation of 'otaku' being very particular and quite derogatory. Let us assume that these are the nerds. What about the geeks? Many of the Japanese exchange students I have become associated with during happenings facilitated by the aforementioned friends have been quite geeky on Western standards. They have also had no qualms about Japanimation. Because these people are clearly not otaku, should we classify them as children instead? While they might be comparably young and live with their parents (which often has nothing to do with nerdiness and everything to do with insane rents), for example, these people are university students. When anime for kids is discussed, this is not the demographic being denoted. Thus, the claim about anime only being something which interests kids and otakus seems too strong.

How I would summarize the situation as I perceive it - admittedly from an outsider's perspective but not one completely removed from reality - is that most definitely what Terraoblivion said is something most Japanese people above a certain age threshold might agree with. These include most producers of anime which keeps the stereotype alive. As someone noted, having perverted toys for grown men means that there are creeps among the demographic. However, it would seem like there is some trickle among the relatively young who would not be classified as kids - nor as nerds. This, however, has nothing to do with my original question. I am simply trying to put a finger on what bothers me about the claim being made here.

One possible answer? "There is no such thing as geek culture in Japan." However, that is patently false according to everything I know. Or suppose - but the people I have actually met are quite strong evidence for this claim. From my perspective, that is - their existence does nothing to validate my argument on a more general level. The Japanese geek culture might not be as widespread as elsewhere but there are most definitely people who do nerd-ish things but are not otaku, or (Japanese) nerds, in the actual sense of the word.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

What are some manga comics that are considered to be classics by the mainstream Manga audience? What are some cult classics?

I want to read some popular examples to get a better feel for Manga as a whole.

[Terraoblivion]

What Japanese perceptions of people say and how those people are might not have a great deal of overlap, you know. Just because a lot of people will assume that they're creepy otaku if they express their interest around them, doesn't mean they actually fit the stereotype. I was talking about the perception of the shows, including the one that the people financing and greenlighting them hold, not about the actual facts of the people in question. I think that distinction might have slipped from the attention of some people.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Oh, and Heavy Metal wasn't a product of 90s excess. The movie was made in 1981 and based on a British comic magazine that debuted in 1975.

Heavy Metal is an American magazine that's the counter part to a French one (Métal Hurlant).

You must be thinking of 2000 AD, which is also Sci fi magazine but with less erotica (started in 1997, same year as Métal Hurlant was brought to America).

[Saph]

Eldariel hit it on the head, I think.

Anime is willing to take and run with story premises that you just won't get in a typical live-action TV series. I don't watch as much anime as I used to, but if I want story ideas, it's still one of my go-to sources. You just get stuff that's so weird, and in a good way. Some of it falls flat, sure, but they're willing to take risks that Hollywood producers aren't.

It also helps that the overall visual quality of anime shows is pretty high. IMO, the best-looking anime series look better than the best Western-produced stuff, which is kind of important in a visual form of art.