Help with rule clarification on Wildshape

[Donny_Green]

Master of Many forms bible
under the topic "official wildshape rules"
states:
"Your may not take the form of a creature advanced in size through additional racial Hit Dice, or with a template."

It comes in closer to the end of the blurb.

My question:

Does this mean there's a cap on the amount of hit dice I can progress a wildshape? Does this limit the size of my wildshape to the starting size of the animal?

Most importantly, can someone please tell me where to find the rule regarding this subject?
Finding rules can be compared to a needle in a hay stack sometimes.
Thanks for the help all.

[eggynack]

The thing about templates can be found under the alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) rules, and is very explicit. As for advanced animals, I've yet to see any official rules in either direction over whether you can take their forms. Most just assume that you can't, and it's a reasonable assumption to make. I don't know what you mean about a cap on the amount of hit dice on a wild shape.

[Donny_Green]

okay let me try to rethink this.

Can I advance a wildshape of an animal in hitdice, my character has hitdice to spare?

If yes is advancement limited to the original size of the animal?

[eggynack]

okay let me try to rethink this.

Can I advance a wildshape of an animal in hitdice, my character has hitdice to spare?

If yes is advancement limited to the original size of the animal?
The general interpretation is that you cannot. You usually just pick another animal that's bigger, or that has more HD, or both. Or neither, because power and HD/size aren't perfectly correlated. It doesn't make much difference, as a creature's HD doesn't actually impact all that much. You don't get the creature's HP, ya know.

[rmnimoc]

Wait, isn't Dire a template?

[eggynack]

Wait, isn't Dire a template?
No, it is not.

[Vhaidara]

Advancement comes up when size hits. And it is total BS. Before I handed off DMing, we hadn't seen the Wild Shape errata, and our MoMF had, of course, seen our party's half-emerald dragon. So he gets the HD, and suddenly I have to make encounters that can deal with a Large sized Half-Emerald Dragon Fleshraker. That could fly, since Large half-dragons get wings.

[Qc Storm]

Hijacking your thread with a quick question.

Can wildshape be dispelled?

[eggynack]

Hijacking your thread with a quick question.

Can wildshape be dispelled?
No. Wild shape is a supernatural ability, and as the description for Su abilities says, "Supernatural abilities... are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic."

[Donny_Green]

No. Wild shape is a supernatural ability, and as the description for Su abilities says, "Supernatural abilities... are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic."

What about anti-magic field?

Also, can anyone point out where I can find the rules about HD adjustment.. if it's just a GM ruling thing, than my GM will probably allow advancement.

[eggynack]

What about anti-magic field?
They go away in an anti-magic field. I'ma just link the section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities).


Also, can anyone point out where I can find the rules about HD adjustment.. if it's just a GM ruling thing, than my GM will probably allow advancement.
To my knowledge, there are no official rules. The general assumption is that you can only take the form of the creature in the stat block, but I don't know of anything that specifically stops you from taking on one of the forms listed in the advancement section of those stat blocks. However, apart from greater sized versions of already existent animals, which has some corner case applications with stuff like making a large fleshraker, I can't think of much that this actually does for you. Is there anything you're seeking to gain outside of that?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Generally when taking the form of another creature, you have to use the printed stats for that creature. You don't get to apply the elite array (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreArrays) to it first, or advance its HD/size, etc., you just use it as-printed. This is how it's always worked, and there's zero precedent for any ability doing otherwise.

[eggynack]

Generally when taking the form of another creature, you have to use the printed stats for that creature. You don't get to apply the elite array (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreArrays) to it first, or advance its HD/size, etc., you just use it as-printed. This is how it's always worked, and there's zero precedent for any ability doing otherwise.
The issue, or so the counterargument goes, is that to a certain extent, this is how the creatures are printed. Fleshrakers, for example, have the potential, right there in the statblock, to be 9-12 HD and large. Moreover, unlike the animal companion, which has a specific rule barring you to a typical creature of its kind, wild shape apparently has no rule stopping you from becoming these clearly established advanced creatures. This isn't a template being applied, after all. I wouldn't use advanced creatures, and I'd likely rule against them if they came up, but I can see nothing stopping the ability to wild shape into advanced creatures from being RAW.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The issue, or so the counterargument goes, is that to a certain extent, this is how the creatures are printed. Fleshrakers, for example, have the potential, right there in the statblock, to be 9-12 HD and large. Moreover, unlike the animal companion, which has a specific rule barring you to a typical creature of its kind, wild shape apparently has no rule stopping you from becoming these clearly established advanced creatures. This isn't a template being applied, after all. I wouldn't use advanced creatures, and I'd likely rule against them if they came up, but I can see nothing stopping the ability to wild shape into advanced creatures from being RAW.

Indeed, but if you've only encountered a 4 HD Fleshraker, then you should only be able to Wild Shape into a 4 HD Fleshraker, because that's the only version of that creature that you're familiar with. You would have to encounter and interact with a 9 HD Large Fleshraker before you would be familiar enough with it to Wild Shape into it.

[eggynack]

Indeed, but if you've only encountered a 4 HD Fleshraker, then you should only be able to Wild Shape into a 4 HD Fleshraker, because that's the only version of that creature that you're familiar with. You would have to encounter and interact with a 9 HD Large Fleshraker before you would be familiar enough with it to Wild Shape into it.
But interaction isn't a necessary component of familiarity. Per the rules compendium standard of allowable wild shape forms, you merely need to know about the creature in question (or have otherwise heard of the creature). To this point, whether a simple knowledge (nature) check would work is not as certain as it is for the normal version of the creature, but it stands to reason that you wouldn't necessarily need to find this creature in the wild in order to make it an acceptable wild shape form.

Presumably, the only barrier to entry for this is knowledge of the existence of the advanced form in question, which could prove tricky. Divinations are a thing though, and could probably do some work towards accessing the forms.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But interaction isn't a necessary component of familiarity. Per the rules compendium standard of allowable wild shape forms, you merely need to know about the creature in question (or have otherwise heard of the creature). To this point, whether a simple knowledge (nature) check would work is not as certain as it is for the normal version of the creature, but it stands to reason that you wouldn't necessarily need to find this creature in the wild in order to make it an acceptable wild shape form.

Presumably, the only barrier to entry for this is knowledge of the existence of the advanced form in question, which could prove tricky. Divinations are a thing though, and could probably do some work towards accessing the forms.

But that starts to get into character knowledge vs metagame knowledge, which in some groups will only prove to be more of a hindrance.

[eggynack]

But that starts to get into character knowledge vs metagame knowledge, which in some groups will only prove to be more of a hindrance.
It's certainly a challenge, but there are likely ways around this that don't need to pass through the DM's decisions about what enemies to put in the game. Books likely exist on these creatures, and their potential sizes, and even something like finding a wizard to contact other plane for you, and asking repeatedly whether large fleshrakers exist, could get you where you need to be. And ultimately, I don't think it can necessarily be considered metagame knowledge to really want to know about whether your crazy dinosaur form has a larger variant. There's gotta be some level on which characters can analyze their own power, and determine how to acquire more.

Edit: Also, incidentally, there are two parts to the rules compendium familiarity standard, and the second part is that simply seeing a creature is sufficient to establish familiarity. Thus, encountering the creature is enough without subsequent interaction.

[Donny_Green]

Thank You Eggynack.

This makes my life easier.. My GM won't have a problem with Wildshape advancement as long as RAW doesn't specifically rule against it.

[eggynack]

Thank You Eggynack.

This makes my life easier.. My GM won't have a problem with Wildshape advancement as long as RAW doesn't specifically rule against it.
You're welcome, though I should restate that advancement doesn't actually impact much of anything apart from size. Thus, if you're seeking some other alteration on the basis of advancement, then it's possible that you're misusing the wild shape rules in some fashion. Really, the rule is only useful when there's some creature at medium for whom there's no closely matched creature at large.

[Urpriest]

The problem with allowing RHD advancement is that it means you have no reason to disallow other "atypical" creatures, like ones with grafts or class levels. Things just get silly in a hurry.

[Donny_Green]

You're welcome, though I should restate that advancement doesn't actually impact much of anything apart from size. Thus, if you're seeking some other alteration on the basis of advancement, then it's possible that you're misusing the wild shape rules in some fashion. Really, the rule is only useful when there's some creature at medium for whom there's no closely matched creature at large.

This is really more about going up in size, which does make a difference to said wild shape. Though extra hitdie does help out with special attacks requiring saves... sorta

But the real sauce is Medium to large, and large to huge.. Note that the character build is a wildshape ranger MoMF with cheese. So I'll be qualified for huge at one point

Also there's the RedCap... +1 to con dex and str for every Hitdie, plus a progression of resitances and natural armor. MM 3 page 138

[eggynack]

This is really more about going up in size, which does make a difference to said wild shape. Though extra hitdie does help out with special attacks requiring saves... sorta

But the real sauce is Medium to large, and large to huge.. Note that the character build is a wildshape ranger MoMF with cheese. So I'll be qualified for huge at one point

Also there's the RedCap... +1 to con dex and str for every Hitdie, plus a progression of resitances and natural armor. MM 3 page 138
Ah. Yeah, I don't think that part works. You maintain the HD of your original form, regardless of what you become, or as the actual text says, "The creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses." You can possibly theoretically become the advanced versions of these creatures, which can help with that size thing you want to do, but just changing the HD of the creature you're becoming doesn't change anything in and of itself.

I'm not really sure how this stuff interacts with the redcap, though my inclination is that it's just a non-entity relative to you. The way I figure it, the advancement ability is a specific ability of some kind, and advancement abilities aren't something explicitly granted by alternate form. I'm less sure on this count, however. The ability is certainly an odd one.

[Donny_Green]

Umm I think something got lost in translation there.. I don't plan on changinig my Hitdice. I plan on using the maximum amount of hitdie I can wildshape, to advance monsters I'm wild shaping. Basically a monster is medium size at 4HD and at 5 it turns large... If I have 5 hd of wild shape I take the large form, and readjust the proper stats to reflect the size change. This comes in the form of strength, con,dex, grapple, AC.

It's all the same stuff I'd be using for the base creature, but adjusted to the next size advancement.

[eggynack]

Umm I think something got lost in translation there.. I don't plan on changinig my Hitdice. I plan on using the maximum amount of hitdie I can wildshape, to advance monsters I'm wild shaping. Basically a monster is medium size at 4HD and at 5 it turns large... If I have 5 hd of wild shape I take the large form, and readjust the proper stats to reflect the size change. This comes in the form of strength, con,dex, grapple, AC.

It's all the same stuff I'd be using for the base creature, but adjusted to the next size advancement.
I don't know if there's necessarily a stat adjustment, apart from the grapple mod and AC stuff you mentioned. Like, stuff that's explicitly impacted by being a larger size. The issue is where you mentioned a higher HD helping with special attacks requiring saves, because I'm pretty sure that it doesn't. If you're only looking for the size adjustment, then that's a theoretically supportable thing by RAW. If you're looking for anything at all that isn't the size adjustment, then it's probable that that's not a thing you can get.

[Donny_Green]

The issue is where you mentioned a higher HD helping with special attacks requiring saves, because I'm pretty sure that it doesn't.

To clarify I'm talking about the wildshape form's own special attacks using the DC 10+stat bonus+1/2 racial HD.

Like a fleshraker's poison which is constitution based DC 14. 10 + 2 con bonus for con of 15, +2 for half of 4 HD.
If I wildshape this creature into a 6 HD version of it's self, can I count the extra 2 HD toward the poison's DC.. DC 15?

More to the point if I advanced a fleshraker to 9 HD - which is large size and adds plus 4 con - could I then, use the higher Con score and higher HD to calculate the poison's DC... DC 18?

And is a DC 18 poison attack, for a level 12 character, all that exciting?

Pardon this one spoiler, but anyone who's reading, I'm asking for RAW, keep your opinions and RP insights out of this question please.

[eggynack]

To clarify I'm talking about the wildshape form's own special attacks using the DC 10+stat bonus+1/2 racial HD.

Like a fleshraker's poison which is constitution based DC 14. 10 + 2 con bonus for con of 15, +2 for half of 4 HD.
If I wildshape this creature into a 6 HD version of it's self, can I count the extra 2 HD toward the poison's DC.. DC 15?
It seems vaguely plausible, though I'm not entirely sure on this count.


More to the point if I advanced a fleshraker to 9 HD - which is large size and adds plus 4 con - could I then, use the higher Con score and higher HD to calculate the poison's DC... DC 18?
I'm not sure that there's any function explicitly based on size change that alters constitution. So, some things that change size will change constitution, but being larger doesn't just intrinsically grant such a bonus.

[Donny_Green]

It seems vaguely plausible, though I'm not entirely sure on this count.


I'm not sure that there's any function explicitly based on size change that alters constitution. So, some things that change size will change constitution, but being larger doesn't just intrinsically grant such a bonus.

Actually it does MM1 page 291 tables 4-2 and 4-3 are all about what happens when a monster goes up in size.

[eggynack]

Actually it does MM1 page 291 tables 4-2 and 4-3 are all about what happens when a monster goes up in size.
Ah. Fair enough then, on that count.

[Urpriest]

To clarify I'm talking about the wildshape form's own special attacks using the DC 10+stat bonus+1/2 racial HD.

Like a fleshraker's poison which is constitution based DC 14. 10 + 2 con bonus for con of 15, +2 for half of 4 HD.
If I wildshape this creature into a 6 HD version of it's self, can I count the extra 2 HD toward the poison's DC.. DC 15?

More to the point if I advanced a fleshraker to 9 HD - which is large size and adds plus 4 con - could I then, use the higher Con score and higher HD to calculate the poison's DC... DC 18?

And is a DC 18 poison attack, for a level 12 character, all that exciting?

Pardon this one spoiler, but anyone who's reading, I'm asking for RAW, keep your opinions and RP insights out of this question please.

You don't gain the creature's HD, so RAW, 10+1/2 HD+Con either has a contribution of zero for HD (because you have no Fleshraker RHD) or it scales with your normal HD. Either way, turning into an advanced form shouldn't do anything.

[Donny_Green]

Because the HD you use are your own class HD. Okay I get it, now. I think that clears everything up, until the next time.

[TmasterT]

Soo... the long and short is you cant use your HD to advance the creatures Size or special abilities with wild shape since your HD are not the creatures Racial HD (which determines size and abilities) ?

[eggynack]

You don't gain the creature's HD, so RAW, 10+1/2 HD+Con either has a contribution of zero for HD (because you have no Fleshraker RHD) or it scales with your normal HD. Either way, turning into an advanced form shouldn't do anything.
That does sound logical, though I generally assume that the DC would stay the same as the way it's listed. I suppose that assumption makes little sense. Do you hold with my stance on the ability to assume the form of advanced animal, in terms of size? It's one of those stances that I'd be happy to see disproved, cause it's some silly business.

[TmasterT]

it could be disproved by the fact the rules dont say you can assume an advanced form.

if we're going to go on the idea that the rules dont say you cant, then we've again reached the slippery slope of a dead character can still take actions.

[Urpriest]

That does sound logical, though I generally assume that the DC would stay the same as the way it's listed. I suppose that assumption makes little sense. Do you hold with my stance on the ability to assume the form of advanced animal, in terms of size? It's one of those stances that I'd be happy to see disproved, cause it's some silly business.

I don't think there's anything direct, but as I commented on the last page the same logic that allows an advanced animal should also allow animals with all sorts of other non-template modifications.

Basically, I think the only logical way to think about this is to decide that when the rules say "form" they mean the way it is in its statblock, with no extra modifications. I agree that there isn't anything explicit that says this, though.

[eggynack]

I don't think there's anything direct, but as I commented on the last page the same logic that allows an advanced animal should also allow animals with all sorts of other non-template modifications.
The only difference there is that other monster alterations aren't directly listed in the statblock, while advancement is to some extent. Still, other non-advancement stuff is listed in a manner similar to that of advancement, which could mean that they have the same position within the rules.


Basically, I think the only logical way to think about this is to decide that when the rules say "form" they mean the way it is in its statblock, with no extra modifications. I agree that there isn't anything explicit that says this, though.
Yeah, it seems like this is one of those things that shall remain annoyingly RAW-ambiguous, rather like that wild shape+ability damage interaction.

[Urpriest]

The only difference there is that other monster alterations aren't directly listed in the statblock, while advancement is to some extent. Still, other non-advancement stuff is listed in a manner similar to that of advancement, which could mean that they have the same position within the rules.

Ok, but advancement by character class is within statblocks. Does that mean if you can turn into something that advances by character class, you can turn into a class-leveled version of it?

[eggynack]

Ok, but advancement by character class is within statblocks. Does that mean if you can turn into something that advances by character class, you can turn into a class-leveled version of it?
That sounds silly to a nearly insane level, but I cannot currently come up with a justification for it not working. Disallowing both things is certainly a more logical way to do it, though I can't really tell if it's the most RAW way to do it.

[Togo]

It comes down to what an advanced creature is. They are used to represent two totally different things.

The first is using advancement to represent an unusually large or tough version of the base creature. An advanced winter wolf might just be an unusually large or tough winter wolf.
The second is using advancement to represent a new species. The 20HD 'Great Mother Wyrm' is just an advanced carrion crawler, but it's a monster in it's own right, even if it produced by applying the advancement rules to the carrion crawler statblock.

By a strict reading of the rules, you would need to be familiar with the HD variant of the creature you want to turn into. That's way more bookkeeping than most people want to do, though, and only really kicks in if you're being strict with familiarity.

From a balance perspective, allowing advanced forms makes a flexible ability more flexible. It doesn't make a druid particularly more powerful, since advanced weak animals are generally less effective for their HD than animals that were more powerful to begin with. It does, however, make a Master of Many forms significantly more potent at higher levels, since they rely more heavily on getting the ex abilities, which otherwise wouldn't scale.

[Togo]

That sounds silly to a nearly insane level, but I cannot currently come up with a justification for it not working. Disallowing both things is certainly a more logical way to do it, though I can't really tell if it's the most RAW way to do it.

You don't get class abilities though. So all it really allows you to do is get a better BAB or saves than would otherwise be the case.

[Urpriest]

You don't get class abilities though. So all it really allows you to do is get a better BAB or saves than would otherwise be the case.

It doesn't do either, since you don't pick up BAB or saves. However, while you don't lose your own class features, nothing in Alternate Form or Wild Shape says you don't gain the class features of your assumed form. At the very least, this means you would gain the ability boosts of classes that boost ability scores, like most of the transformative ones. It would also give you extraordinary attacks derived from class.

[Donny_Green]

I love the responses on this post, there's alot of different perspectives going on.

So am I hearing this right? Certain monsters unlock new special abilities as they go up in HD?
I've seen it with Dragons but I don't think it's actually HD dependent as age dependent, and I've seen class levels added to a unicorn, but I don't think I've ever seen new racial HD unlock new special abilities.

But that's not to say I assume I know everything, in fact I still feel fairly ignorant on the part of the MM books.

[eggynack]

So am I hearing this right? Certain monsters unlock new special abilities as they go up in HD?
Probably not in the majority of cases, but theoretically, for a creature which has an explicitly defined stat-block class level progression, like the troll hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm), as a random example, you could feasibly gain some.

I've seen it with Dragons but I don't think it's actually HD dependent as age dependent, and I've seen class levels added to a unicorn, but I don't think I've ever seen new racial HD unlock new special abilities.

Dragons, I think, are just defined as a bunch of separate creatures, as opposed to some form of advancement.


But that's not to say I assume I know everything, in fact I still feel fairly ignorant on the part of the MM books.
Yeah, this stuff is very tricky, particularly when you involve shape changing abilities like wild shape, or polymorph. They usually work fine to a point, but there tends to be some quantity of ambiguity around the edges. In the meantime, if you're interested in monster learning, which you should be if you're running an MoMF, then you should check out the monstrous monster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928). It doesn't answer this particular question, because as I've mentioned, seriously murky and ambiguous, but it answers other questions. As is, I would advise avoiding this particular chunk of cheesery. You don't really need it to be very high powered, and it causes a pretty decent quantity of wonkiness.

[Donny_Green]

What? The special ability cheesery? Never on my life, but the size increase is the way the GM runs a druid in his games so I see no reason not to take advantage of the size change.

It's actually less of an issue of power over adaptability. At the end of the day I'm going to choose the biggest (terrain appropriate) strongest monster I can get my hands on "warbound impailer" "war troll" "redcap" god I love MM 3. and go kick some ass.

The extra size will help in a pinch but it won't throw anything out of wack with the amount of power gamers in my group.

Thank you for the link Eggy. Your remind me of a guy I used to know who move the NC.

[eggynack]

What? The special ability cheesery? Never on my life, but the size increase is the way the GM runs a druid in his games so I see no reason not to take advantage of the size change.
That works well enough then, though the fact that it seems like the class level thing is a natural consequence of the size increase thing is giving me a rules headache.


It's actually less of an issue of power over adaptability. At the end of the day I'm going to choose the biggest (terrain appropriate) strongest monster I can get my hands on "warbound impailer" "war troll" "redcap" god I love MM 3. and go kick some ass.

The extra size will help in a pinch but it won't throw anything out of wack with the amount of power gamers in my group.
Fair enough, especially as size increases don't represent that big of a power boost in most cases. In the meantime, it might be worth looking into some solid creatures with accessible advanced forms of the gargantuan kind. I've been meaning to find some purpose for megalodon empowerment, as the fact that that spell is currently somewhere near useless, despite the fact that it looks like it has potential.

Thank you for the link Eggy. Your remind me of a guy I used to know who move the NC.
Indeed. Ya gotta keep up with all vaguely druid related threads, or something of some kind occurs. Presumably, in this case, it would be failing to know about that weird class level thing.

[TmasterT]

just realize there is absolutely no rule anywhere that says you can do it. under wild shape or alternate form is says you take the base form, you gain its attacks and its physical ability scores, no where does it say you can advance that form by size, nor does it say anywhere that you can assume an advanced form. i dont get why theres an argument here at all, you dont actually become that creature, in fact is specifically says you keep your type and subtype, you cant as a human (elf,dwarf,gnome, whatever) increase your sized based on gaining HD.

if your DM allows this your probably better off finding the smallest creature you can turn into then just upsize him by your HD, and gain 26 str, and 10 con (diminutive -> huge) maybe something like a pixie with its special abilites or some such nonsence.

[eggynack]

just realize there is absolutely no rule anywhere that says you can do it. under wild shape or alternate form is says you take the base form.
Where does it say "base form"? It looks like you can just become any animal that is un-templated, and within your size/HD limits. A large fleshraker, when you are of a level that would allow you to take such a form, is an animal within every existing limitation. Moreover, the advancement is well defined within the stat-block in question, so these are real creatures that exist in the game. It doesn't have to say that you can do this specific thing, because the game already gives leave to become any animal within the limits given. This limit to non-advanced creatures would need to be explicit.

[rmnimoc]

just realize there is absolutely no rule anywhere that says you can do it. under wild shape or alternate form is says you take the base form, you gain its attacks and its physical ability scores, no where does it say you can advance that form by size, nor does it say anywhere that you can assume an advanced form. i dont get why theres an argument here at all, you dont actually become that creature, in fact is specifically says you keep your type and subtype, you cant as a human (elf,dwarf,gnome, whatever) increase your sized based on gaining HD.

if your DM allows this your probably better off finding the smallest creature you can turn into then just upsize him by your HD, and gain 26 str, and 10 con (diminutive -> huge) maybe something like a pixie with its special abilites or some such nonsence.


Where does it say "base form"? It looks like you can just become any animal that is un-templated, and within your size/HD limits. A large fleshraker, when you are of a level that would allow you to take such a form, is an animal within every existing limitation. Moreover, the advancement is well defined within the stat-block in question, so these are real creatures that exist in the game. It doesn't have to say that you can do this specific thing, because the game already gives leave to become any animal within the limits given. This limit to non-advanced creatures would need to be explicit.

Dropping the SRD wording here for reference:

Wild Shape (Su)
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level.

The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.

At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.)

At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.

At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental.


Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

•The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
•The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
•The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
•The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
•The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
•The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
•The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
•Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
•The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
•The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
•Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

I believe: "All creatures with the animal type" includes both 3 HD wolves, 4HD wolves, 5 HD wolves, and 6 HD wolves.

[TuggyNE]

You know, it would have been a lot clearer if they had just put in Alternate Form "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature that has been advanced in any way", since that includes class levels, templates, and RHD increases all at the same time.

But since they didn't, it seems entirely possible that they did not in fact intend to rule out anything but templates specifically. Odd.

[eggynack]

You know, it would have been a lot clearer if they had just put in Alternate Form "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature that has been advanced in any way", since that includes class levels, templates, and RHD increases all at the same time.

I would have gone with the animal companion text, with something like, "The form you assume must be completely typical for its kind." I mean, I guess you could argue that a large wolf is completely typical for its kind, where its kind is defined as large wolves, but it could work reasonably well. Making the rules direct and explicit is probably better though.

[TmasterT]

just saying this opens alot of cheese that probably should be kept closed. if you going to essentially let players decide the HD and size of any creature they can wild shape into here comes the diminutive full HD mind flayers, beholders, dragons, hmm gargantuan mind flayers suck brains from 20' away

[Donny_Green]

just saying this opens alot of cheese that probably should be kept closed. if you going to essentially let players decide the HD and size of any creature they can wild shape into here comes the diminutive full HD mind flayers, beholders, dragons, hmm gargantuan mind flayers suck brains from 20' away

This is a discussion about RAW, if you don't like it don't run it in your own game. Otherwise let the discussion go on.

And at what HD can a mind flayer turn diminutive in it's natural advancement table? They don't even get natural HD advancement.

[eggynack]

just saying this opens alot of cheese that probably should be kept closed. if you going to essentially let players decide the HD and size of any creature they can wild shape into here comes the diminutive full HD mind flayers, beholders, dragons, hmm gargantuan mind flayers suck brains from 20' away
Sure, though you'd presumably be limited to things within the stat block. I'm not really disputing that it's silly or stupid. I'd like nothing more (apart from a lot of things) than for the RAW of this to be disproved. However, to all appearances, it is RAW, or at least ambiguously so.

[TmasterT]

Sure, though you'd presumably be limited to things within the stat block. I'm not really disputing that it's silly or stupid. I'd like nothing more (apart from a lot of things) than for the RAW of this to be disproved. However, to all appearances, it is RAW, or at least ambiguously so.

i can agree with that, since it seems to be another oversight that should be addressed one way or the other

[bekeleven]

A few notes:

Alternate Form reads "the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD..."

Here's a really funny issues that I generally house-rule away.

In the SRD Under "Reading the Monster Entries", the rules for special attack DCs reads:

When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:

10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier.


However, in a more specific passage, you can find this:


The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).


As a consequence, when wild shaped, the saving DC of any extaordinary ability is 10+Your abilitity modifier, unless you have RHD. I recommend substituting your effective wild shaping level instead. Supernatural abilities, such as those gained through shapechange (or shoddy homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15807014)) scale with your level.

The advanced form issue was addressed (negatively) in an FAQ or Sage somewhere that I haven't been able to find since I reformatted in 2010. Nothing more official has ever addressed it.

WIth regards to the redcap, its exact wording is: "For each additional Hit Die a redcap has", which is the word that troubles me. If it gave buffs for each HD you gain then wild shapers would never get it. But if you turn into a young redcap as a 10HD MoMF, then you are effectively a 4HD Redcap that has 10 hit die, and arguably entitled to some stat boosts for it. I call redcap abuse RAW ambiguous, and would allow it in my games. Why would redcap ever be your best form?

[TmasterT]

dont LA's come into play also? it has an LA+4 so a 10 HD redcap actually only has 6 HD right? and yeah the strange advancement has some serious shennigans since it specifically says after killing someone they gain the HD. can a druid turn into a specific creature? like say the super badass redcap slayer thats 20 HD? or do you just turn into the normal redcap? and yeah redcaps are not impressive compared to other forms.

[bekeleven]

dont LA's come into play also? it has an LA+4 so a 10 HD redcap actually only has 6 HD right?LA + HD is a calculation of ECL, which doesn't come into play here. HD and LA have no special interaction here. If they did, good luck turning into any animal, which all have LA of - (unplayable).


and yeah the strange advancement has some serious shennigans since it specifically says after killing someone they gain the HD.That's descriptive text, not prescriptive. However, there is one further issue I forgot to mention: The redcap's special advancement's type is RAW ambiguous. All powers of any creature are natural, extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like (RC). However, the ability doesn't appear in the stat block under SA or SQ, meaning we don't have any clue what it is. If ruled supernatural, it's out for wild shapers. Alternatively, a DM could say that since it's not on the stat block it's a "world event" and not part of the creature at all - A ruling that I don't think has any precedent, but then, special advancement rules are otherwise generally presented in stat blocks (hello dusk giant) so the MM3 presentation has no precedent either. Who knows? I'd love to hear opinions on this. (Eggy and Urpriest, you know these rules pretty well, right?)


can a druid turn into a specific creature? like say the super badass redcap slayer thats 20 HD? or do you just turn into the normal redcap? and yeah redcaps are not impressive compared to other forms.

Now that wild shape is alternate form-based, a bunch of ruling from early in the game's lifetime are void or useless. The short answer is that - like HD advancement - no because no. You turn into an average creature of the type, just don't ask me where the rules say it...

[TmasterT]

Now that wild shape is alternate form-based, a bunch of ruling from early in the game's lifetime are void or useless. The short answer is that - like HD advancement - no because no. You turn into an average creature of the type, just don't ask me where the rules say it...

turning into the average creature is a hold over from 3.0 when wild shape was based off of polymorph which is based off of alter self, which states that you turn into an average creature of the race.

when they changed to alternate form from the MM they didnt address this issue, thus its openended.

[bekeleven]

turning into the average creature is a hold over from 3.0 when wild shape was based off of polymorph which is based off of alter self, which states that you turn into an average creature of the race.

when they changed to alternate form from the MM they didnt address this issue, thus its openended

Actually that change didn't reach print for years after 3.5's publication, as my 3.5 PHB can attest. The years directly after 3.5's publication were also the years with the most FAQ and errata (including the eventual errata of wild shape's base ability).

[TmasterT]

So if a druid of say 10th lvl turns into a fleshraker does he have to be large? or can he turn into a medium sized fleshraker with 10HD. just trying to figure out if size has to be linked to HD. if it is then a 20hd druid can never turn into a sparrow? or does he just get to pick his size accordingly, and thus opens the door to diminutive mindflayers.

Im asking cause it seems the creatures HD isnt connected to the players HD (ie a 20th lvl druid that shapes into a small 1/2 HD hummingbird cant be effected by cause fear) correct? if it is disconnected then the wild shape hasen't gained HD by advancing, and it says creatures gain size by advancing the HD of the base creature. like the creature has to be 15HD of animal if that's true the druid can shape into a large creature but it doesnt gain the benefits listed on table 4-2 in the MM, it would just adopt the size rules from rules compendium page 116. ???
since you as a druid keep your type and HD you can turn into a wolf, even a large wolf but you don't gain the STR/CON bonus from size by advancing the animals HD since that's specifically from advancing animal HD, not just shaping into an animal, but you would gain the size benefits from the rules compendium.

or am i just looking to far into this?

[eggynack]

So if a druid of say 10th lvl turns into a fleshraker does he have to be large? or can he turn into a medium sized fleshraker with 10HD. just trying to figure out if size has to be linked to HD. if it is then a 20hd druid can never turn into a sparrow? or does he just get to pick his size accordingly, and thus opens the door to diminutive mindflayers.
You can become any animal with HD equal to or less than your wild shape level, and by the interpretation of the rules we're using, that includes advanced animals. It also, however, includes unadvanced animals. So, you can become either the large fleshraker, using more of your HD capacity, or you can become a medium fleshraker, using less of it, or you can become a sparrow. All of these creatures have HD less than your druid level, so you can become all of them. You can not, however, become a diminutive mindflayer, because there is no mention of diminutive mindflayers in the mindflayer stat-block. The thing about the form's presence in a stat-block is really what lends this interpretation its credibility, so if it's not in a stat-block, it's not allowed.



Im asking cause it seems the creatures HD isnt connected to the players HD (ie a 20th lvl druid that shapes into a small 1/2 HD hummingbird cant be effected by cause fear) correct? if it is disconnected then the wild shape hasen't gained HD by advancing, and it says creatures gain size by advancing the HD of the base creature. like the creature has to be 15HD of animal if that's true the druid can shape into a large creature but it doesnt gain the benefits listed on table 4-2 in the MM, it would just adopt the size rules from rules compendium page 116. ???
The druid's HD and the animal's HD are completely disconnected, as you noted. As for the gains in size causing bonuses, it's a bit ambiguous, but it would likely work. A theoretical full stat-block for the advanced creature would feature those bonuses, so so too would the form.

[Togo]

It doesn't do either, since you don't pick up BAB or saves. However, while you don't lose your own class features, nothing in Alternate Form or Wild Shape says you don't gain the class features of your assumed form.

In what sense are class abilities abilities of the form?

[eggynack]

In what sense are class abilities abilities of the form?
How aren't they? You're taking the form of a creature with class levels. The class levels are a component of the form, because that's what you chose to transform into. I don't know what would stop you from using that part of the stat-block.

[TmasterT]

so nothing stopping you from taking the form of a 1 HD lizard man and advancing it with 9 HD of rogue and gaining, uncanny dodge (EX), Evasion (EX), Sneak attack 5D6(EX), and trap sence (EX). the only caviot is that you would have to have seen or interacted with a lizard man with rogue abilities??

that becomes even more powerful with ACF's. Troll with 1 HD of Lion totem barb with whirling frenzy??? how about PRC's, its starting to get a bit wonky, seems it may be RAW but id say defiantly not RAI, granted its only with Master of many forms, but still

[eggynack]

so nothing stopping you from taking the form of a 1 HD lizard man and advancing it with 9 HD of rogue and gaining, uncanny dodge (EX), Evasion (EX), Sneak attack 5D6(EX), and trap sence (EX). the only caviot is that you would have to have seen or interacted with a lizard man with rogue abilities??

that becomes even more powerful with ACF's. Troll with 1 HD of Lion totem barb with whirling frenzy??? how about PRC's, its starting to get a bit wonky, seems it may be RAW but id say defiantly not RAI, granted its only with Master of many forms, but still
No, as I've noted, you need a stat-block here. There needs to be a particular entity that you're pulling these class levels from, because the idea is that this one stat-block is being defined as its own creature, and you're able to turn into that creature. So, if you find a place in the books where there is specifically listed a 1 HD lizard man with rogue levels, you can then become that specific and exact creature, with no changes.

[TmasterT]

under advancement it says "by character class" which means any class, its no less ambiguous then "10-15" which means you have to add animal class levels.

if your ruling you can advance a creature by whats printed in the stat block under advancement then its pretty cut and dry.

this argument stems from a druid seeing a rare old massive 12 HD fleshraker and being able to turn into it. it would seem if that same druid has only ever seen one troll and that troll had the ability to rage and go all frenzy then when the druid shaped into it he would have the same ability's.

[eggynack]

under advancement it says "by character class" which means any class, its no less ambiguous then "10-15" which means you have to add animal class levels.

if your ruling you can advance a creature by whats printed in the stat block under advancement then its pretty cut and dry
That does make some sense, though that form of advancement is a lot more murky than just listing a particular HD and size of creature. The HD form of advancement tells you everything you need to know about the creature you're advancing into, while the character class form of advancement tells you basically nothing. Which is the problem, I suppose. Theoretically, were this to work, you'd need to gain some form of familiarity with this exact creature that you're trying to turn into, rather than some creature that is similar to the one you're trying to turn into.

[TmasterT]

right which goes to the heart of the question, if druids shape into a specific creature of that type that they seen or interacted with, or if they shape into a typical type of said race, which would mean the normal stat block listed in the MM, not advanced versions

[eggynack]

right which goes to the heart of the question, if druids shape into a specific creature of that type that they seen or interacted with, or if they shape into a typical type of said race, which would mean the normal stat block listed in the MM, not advanced versions
I'm just not sure if it's a question that has an answer. It's rather like the silly ability damage+wild shape thing, or the summoning or wild shaping into anything of the elemental type thing in that way. At least I have a reasonably internally consistent ruling on the latter that seems to match intent. In this case though, all I know is that it's the sorta thing that makes me want to run away in terror the more I consider it.

[TmasterT]

Id honestly rule the druid turns into a typical version of animals, its in line with all the other shapechanging ability's/spells (polymorph, alter self, change shape etc..etc..) its not like it in any way nerfs druids. being the pinnacle of tier 1 I dont think they really need it.

[eggynack]

Id honestly rule the druid turns into a typical version of animals, its in line with all the other shapechanging ability's/spells (polymorph, alter self, change shape etc..etc..) its not like it in any way nerfs druids. being the pinnacle of tier 1 I dont think they really need it.
Yeah, that's a true enough thing. Also, with the weird class level advancement thing, you would probably be able to become classes without MoMF. Fangshields substitution levels let you become any medium humanoid, for example, and that obviously works. Aberration wild shape likely works as well. Silliness ensues.

[TmasterT]

So after talking to my gaming groups rules lawyer it seems that a druid can not use or advance a creatures HD type to gain the size benefits from chart 4-2 in the MM since the druid at no point gains the creatures HD type nor can he add that type to himself to advance that form. Since the druids HD type never changes he cant gain the benefit of size because he added (lets say wolf for example) animals class levels to the base creature to gain the size benefit allowed to animals that have gained those levels from adding racial HD (animal).

the benefits listed on chart 4-2 are for adding HD to creatures that dont gain levels by class (otherwise known as racial HD). since a druid gains levels by class any form he takes he still keeps his benefits from his class and since he Cant gain levels in (animal) he is ineligible to gain the size increase benefits.

now if a DM will let a druid change into a large creature that has a normal medium stat block, he figured the druid would be entitled to the generic size increase benefits found on table 7-1 on page 314 of the MM. but since he neither gains nor advances (animal) class levels he is ineligible to gain the STR/CON bonuses from chart 4-2.

this can be seen by just looking at the Troll stat block, since trolls advance by class they never gain size, then look at cave troll which has a 3 int and cant gain class levels, it then can gain racial (Giant) levels and thus is allowed to increase size.

therefore even if a druid sees a massive monster 9HD large wolf, when the druid shifts into that form he is still physically weaker cause he doesn't have (animal) HD to gain the size increase, he does keep all his druid ability's which we all agree are far more powerful.

[Urpriest]

So after talking to my gaming groups rules lawyer it seems that a druid can not use or advance a creatures HD type to gain the size benefits from chart 4-2 in the MM since the druid at no point gains the creatures HD type nor can he add that type to himself to advance that form. Since the druids HD type never changes he cant gain the benefit of size because he added (lets say wolf for example) animals class levels to the base creature to gain the size benefit allowed to animals that have gained those levels from adding racial HD (animal).

the benefits listed on chart 4-2 are for adding HD to creatures that dont gain levels by class (otherwise known as racial HD). since a druid gains levels by class any form he takes he still keeps his benefits from his class and since he Cant gain levels in (animal) he is ineligible to gain the size increase benefits.

now if a DM will let a druid change into a large creature that has a normal medium stat block, he figured the druid would be entitled to the generic size increase benefits found on table 7-1 on page 314 of the MM. but since he neither gains nor advances (animal) class levels he is ineligible to gain the STR/CON bonuses from chart 4-2.

this can be seen by just looking at the Troll stat block, since trolls advance by class they never gain size, then look at cave troll which has a 3 int and cant gain class levels, it then can gain racial (Giant) levels and thus is allowed to increase size.

therefore even if a druid sees a massive monster 9HD large wolf, when the druid shifts into that form he is still physically weaker cause he doesn't have (animal) HD to gain the size increase, he does keep all his druid ability's which we all agree are far more powerful.

Problem is, by that logic the Druid also can't turn into the base animal, since there isn't even a published version of the base animal with no RHD at all, so there is no way of knowing what its stats would be.

Basically, by that logic you can't turn into a 9RHD large wolf, but you also can't turn into a 2RHD medium wolf. You can only turn into a 0RHD wolf, and you have no idea what stats it would have, or what size it would be.

I feel like adding in a "typical of its kind" requirement is the only way to consistently handle these things, however little support it has in the rules.

[bekeleven]

There is one further issue I forgot to mention: The redcap's special advancement's type is RAW ambiguous. All powers of any creature are natural, extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like (RC). However, the ability doesn't appear in the stat block under SA or SQ, meaning we don't have any clue what it is. If ruled supernatural, it's out for wild shapers. Alternatively, a DM could say that since it's not on the stat block it's a "world event" and not part of the creature at all - A ruling that I don't think has any precedent, but then, special advancement rules are otherwise generally presented in stat blocks (hello dusk giant) so the MM3 presentation has no precedent either. Who knows? I'd love to hear opinions on this. (Eggy and Urpriest, you know these rules pretty well, right?)

Any thoughts on this? It's still bugging me a bit.

[Urpriest]

Any thoughts on this? It's still bugging me a bit.

In terms of how many people they have to kill or anything like that, the rules simply don't say.

In terms of advancement, it's not one of those abilities because it's advancement, which is just something different. There are a few creatures with nonstandard advancement (true dragons being the primary example), so it's hardly unprecedented.

[Donny_Green]

Ok, but advancement by character class is within statblocks. Does that mean if you can turn into something that advances by character class, you can turn into a class-leveled version of it?

We talked about it over here, and it seems that might be countered by only allow "by class" to racial class at the back of the MM1 glossary under subtypes.

[Urpriest]

We talked about it over here, and it seems that might be countered by only allow "by class" to racial class at the back of the MM1 glossary under subtypes.

...I'm not sure what you mean here, I think you may have gotten one or two of the terms in that statement wrong and I legitimately can't parse what you were trying to say.

[bekeleven]

In terms of how many people they have to kill or anything like that, the rules simply don't say.

In terms of advancement, it's not one of those abilities because it's advancement, which is just something different. There are a few creatures with nonstandard advancement (true dragons being the primary example), so it's hardly unprecedented.

Sure but, assume for the sake of argument that divine minion allows entry into MoMF and I use the permanent-duration wild shape to turn into a redcap. If I turn into one as a MoMF 4, then do I get a str boost when I level? How about if I'm a MoMF 7? If the ability is extraordinary, I'd surely get it by then.

The alternate question - whether shapeshifting into a redcap grants the benefits without requiring you level up in the form - I discussed the previous page. Depending on your answer to the previous question (whether the ability is, indeed, a form ability) this one can possibly be determined.

[TmasterT]

Problem is, by that logic the Druid also can't turn into the base animal, since there isn't even a published version of the base animal with no RHD at all, so there is no way of knowing what its stats would be.

Basically, by that logic you can't turn into a 9RHD large wolf, but you also can't turn into a 2RHD medium wolf. You can only turn into a 0RHD wolf, and you have no idea what stats it would have, or what size it would be.

I feel like adding in a "typical of its kind" requirement is the only way to consistently handle these things, however little support it has in the rules.

Correct, by RAW a Druid can't turn into an animal at all. it never changes its HD(type) into Animal. Wild shape has a specific set of rules that say, a druid takes the "alternate form" of an animal. "Form" is an undefined term, but that's ok since "alternate form" gives very specific instructions as to the benefits it grants. so a druid takes the form of an animal listed in the MM under its printed stat block, it gains that creatures movement modes, normal attack modes, normal natural armor, (EX) attack modes and the stats listed for that monster. The druid does NOT change its type or subtype (unless aquatic is added) it doesn't gain more HP (except con bonus changes), it uses the druids BAB, Saves, and class abilities. it doesn't gain any (EX) special qualities, (SU) or Spell like abilities. Therefore the druid DOES NOT gain any benefits from gaining or having (Animal) HD, that means it doesn't matter how many HD the druid has it doesn't gain the size benefits from chart 4-2 in the MM because gaining class levels (the only levels druids can gain) do not confer size benefits. It doesn't matter what the HD of the animal is, as long as its less then the druids HD, 0HD wolf, 20HD wolf, wild shape doesn't confer any benefits based on the forms HD. This is the reason a druid in animal "form" is not effected by "hold animal, animal growth, etc.. etc.." ironically a druid in animal form can still be effected by "enlarge person" despite not having a humanoid "form", He still has type (humanoid).

As for the red cap, the same rules apply, the druid doesn't in anyway actually turn into a (FEY) and thus he cant have or advance any HD to gain the bonus listed for its advancement. the only benefits of turning into a red cap is you gain its powerful build ability and its eldritch stone ability, along with its movement, nat armor 1 and attacks(which seem to only be weapons, so nothing there), and its listed STR/DEX/CON. Or if your a MoMF at or above 7th lvl then you gain Damage reduction 5/cold iron, and low light vision. you DO NOT gain any of the advancement abilities because again the MoMF's do not have nor advance any (fey, redcap)HD.

I guess if you somehow convinced your DM into allowing a permanent wildshape into a redcap, you could argue for the strange advancement rules, but again your then taking (fey) racial levels, which is not supported since your NOT (fey), your still a (humanoid) druid with class levels.
Id also say your not going to be balanced with your party since it seems they don't get XP to advance they only need to kill something and preform a small blood cap ritual. which is totally ambigious since it doesnt say how big said creature has to be or really any details (see chicken cursed commoners), kinda like a barghast, which savage species poo pooed right away.

Thus the Original post statement "Your may not take the form of a creature advanced in size through additional racial Hit Dice, or with a template." is entirely correct

[boxfox]

Aside from the prolific lack of apostrophes, TMasterT is precisely on the money.
Props, dude.

[Togo]

Correct, by RAW a Druid can't turn into an animal at all. it never changes its HD(type) into Animal. Wild shape has a specific set of rules that say, a druid takes the "alternate form" of an animal. "Form" is an undefined term, but that's ok since "alternate form" gives very specific instructions as to the benefits it grants. so a druid takes the form of an animal listed in the MM under its printed stat block, it gains that creatures movement modes, normal attack modes, normal natural armor, (EX) attack modes and the stats listed for that monster. The druid does NOT change its type or subtype (unless aquatic is added) it doesn't gain more HP (except con bonus changes), it uses the druids BAB, Saves, and class abilities. it doesn't gain any (EX) special qualities, (SU) or Spell like abilities.

Do the words I bolded actually appear somewhere in the alternate form descriptions? Because without them, there's nothing to suggest that the printed stat block is what you use. If nothing else, several of the later monster books have monsters with class levels, monsters with templates, and so on. If you really did use the printed stat block, that would be an issue.


Therefore the druid DOES NOT gain any benefits from gaining or having (Animal) HD, that means it doesn't matter how many HD the druid has it doesn't gain the size benefits from chart 4-2 in the MM.

Those aren't 'benefits'. They're changes to the form. Since you gain the form, why wouldn't you gain the size? To take my earlier example, if you'd only ever seen a gargantuan great mother wyrm (18HD), would you suddenly gain the ability to turn into a medium sized carrion crawler?

To take a simpler example, you have two species of bear. The brown bear, using the stats in the book, and the Spire of the Moon bear, a larger and more aggressive species that comes form the spires of the moon, a mountain range far to the west. On what basis is a druid unable to turn into a Spires of the Moon bear?



Thus the Original post statement "Your may not take the form of a creature advanced in size through additional racial Hit Dice, or with a template." is entirely correct

I don't agree we've discovered any basis for this ruling. Template, sure, but not advancement from additional Hit Dice. Because if a creature has additional hit dice, then the larger form is their form.

The only grey area I see is whether seeing a smaller bear would allow you to turn into an advanced one.

[TmasterT]

Again the long and the short is you as a druid wild shaping, don't HAVE OR GAIN the racial HD of any creature therefore you are NOT entitled to the benefits for gaining size listed on chart 4-2 of the monster manual. Im not saying you can't turn into a large bear, moon bear, or a dire bear. Just that you don't gain the benefits of that chart because that chart is for adding racial HD to a creature. Even if you saw the largest most awesome, meanest cave bear ever, your still ineligible for the benefits on that chart and thus you don't get them. If you turned into a Large cave bear you DO gain the benefits of the chart 7-1 (page 314) of the monster manual (reprinted in the rules compendium on page 116). otherwise alternate form gives you very precise descriptions of the benefits you do gain.

As for your spires of the moon bear analogy, if there is an entry in a monster manual then you would take the stats listed under it, as long as it doesn't have a template, and is listed as an animal with the correct HD. And yes i agree MM5 does create problems since they have monsters with Class levels, but that's ok because you don't use the monsters HD for anything nor do you gain any size, since that monster probably was advanced by class and didn't get a size increase from racial HD anyway. but yes I agree adding more MM's to the game just made more problems and (imo unnecessary op monsters like cave trolls, death giants and fleshrakers, but thats just my opinion, and not relevant).

Ultimately the DM should decide to restrict (or not) the use of MM's by players in his world in the first place, and players should never be allowed to "create" their own monster stat blocks unless they are DM'ing

[TmasterT]

I also found this listed in the WoTC site under polymorph revisted from the rules of the game 3.5 archive. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a
seems these rules cover this entire argument.


Assuming an Alternate Form

An alternate form is mostly physical. A creature in an alternate form retains its essential self, but changes its outward appearance and physical attributes.

Upon changing form, the creature gains the assumed form's size.

The size gained is always the size for a typical example of the assumed form's kind. A creature's typical size is listed at the top of its statistics block in the creature's description. Most creatures allow for some size variations, but those are for exceptional specimens. For example, a typical dire bear is size Large. Some dire bears are Huge (see the advancement section in the dire bear creature description), but if a creature assumes dire bear form through the alternate form class feature, it becomes Large.

It is possible for a creature description to specify a different size than the typical size for an assumed form, but an assumed form is limited to the typical size if a different size isn't specified.

A few creatures have a range of typical sizes. Examples include sharks, monstrous spiders, and tojanidas. In such cases the creature description specifies which sizes the assumed form can have. If not, alternate form allows the creature to assume any typical size. For example, a bronze dragon could assume the form of a Tiny, Small, or Medium viper because those are all typical sizes for vipers (see page 280 in the Monster Manual) and all fall within the range of sizes the dragon's alternate form power allows. Beware of additional blocks of statistics in a creature description that show the creature with a few levels added (such as the mummy lord), or creature descriptions that show alternative forms (such as lycanthropes). You can't use alternate form to assume a form with class levels or to assume another creature's alternative forms when shape shifting.

[Bronk]

Wild Shape (SU): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.

Later, a note...


In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.

These are the relevant parts of the Wild Shape ability that indicate that, by RAW, you are able to take the form of whatever sized animal that you qualify for. The druid can choose to take on the form of an animal, limited only be the sizes he/she qualifies for, and that animal would have the proper stats for it's HD. At no point does the druid need to have the creature's type of HD to take the form of the creature, even an advanced one.

The 'rules of the game' link is interesting, but is only, possibly, RAI, not RAW, and only for Alternate Form, not Wild Shape, which further modifies Alternate Form.

Also, a medium druid wild shaped into a large creature would not be eligible for an 'Enlarge Person' spell because they have already been enlarged through the use of magic and the effects would not stack.

[TmasterT]

wrong on so many points.
and "by magic? is not a term for stacking rules. there are tons of different magic spells that will increase your str and some stack (enlarge person, bulls str) both magic, both stack, since the str increase is by size from one and by enhancement on the other.

now im not positive where the WoTC online rules clarifications comes into play if its "official errata or just a sage rules type" but its definitionaly RAW since they clearly have them spelled out right there.

[eggynack]

wrong on so many points.
and "by magic? is not a term for stacking rules. there are tons of different magic spells that will increase your str and some stack (enlarge person, bulls str) both magic, both stack, since the str increase is by size from one and by enhancement on the other.
It's a specific function of size increasers. Specifically, the line of enlarge person that says, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

[TmasterT]

ah your right, My Bad, sorry bronk

[bekeleven]

The druid does NOT change its type or subtype (unless aquatic is added) it doesn't gain more HP (except con bonus changes)Not even then. No Max HP changes.


Again the long and the short is you as a druid wild shaping, don't HAVE OR GAIN the racial HD of any creature


As for the red cap, the same rules apply, the druid doesn't in anyway actually turn into a (FEY) and thus he cant have or advance any HD to gain the bonus listed for its advancement.

Sometimes you think that racial HD and class levels are exactly the same, like your insistence that people can wild shape into statblocks with class levels. Other times you insist that they're all-together separate beasts, like now. The truth is a tad more complicated, as I posted before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17182701&postcount=54). Sloppy editing means that RAW continually confuses the two when discussing abilities, powers, and advancement. To find the truth of how abilities interact with hit dice of all forms, one must read carefully.

This is complicated by the fact that, not only did the authors write with these rules minutiae in mind, they occasionally confused their own terms. What is meant, I wonder, by "Hit Dice" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#monstersAndClassLevels)?


The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice.

Now, let's read the Redcap.


For each additional Hit Die a redcap has, it gains +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity, and +1 Constitution as well as the normal benefits...

We now know the terms we're using. A Level 10 human druid has 10 hit dice. Based on discussion in this thread, the standard redcap into which you are wild shaping has either 4 HD (standard interpretation) or 0 HD (some people's argued RAW interpretation, since - as stated - you "don't HAVE OR GAIN the racial HD of any creature" and thus cannot have any fey HD at all). So how many additional hit dice do you have? The answer is obviously 6 or inobviously 10. Certainly not zero.

Similar questions abound for other races, obviously, but the redcap is convenient enough as a marker.



Id also say your not going to be balanced with your party since it seems they don't get XP to advance they only need to kill something and preform a small blood cap ritual.

I don't see that anywhere. Complete relevant text reproduced:


After a redcap has slain a victim, it dips its cap into the victim’s blood, thereby gradually gaining strength and power. This ability is reflected in special rules for advancement that apply only to redcaps. For each additional Hit Die a redcap has, it gains +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity, and +1 Constitution as well as the normal benefits for advancing...
in Hit Dice.

Looks like "Do this when you kill stuff, and you get bonuses for extra hit dice" to me. It even says "gradually."

[Bronk]

It's an eighth level spell, but the Megalodon Empowerment spell Eggynack was talking about earlier would allow a wild shape size one category larger for a time...

[eggynack]

It's an eighth level spell, but the Megalodon Empowerment spell Eggynack was talking about earlier would allow a wild shape size one category larger for a time...
Indeed. Animal only though, and the list of gargantuan forms is crazy short. The true best use I could come up with for it is if you lose wild shape progression through a prestige class, thus meaning that you acquire megalodon empowerment before huge forms, which grants dire tortoise form on time. Incidentally, the way around the casting loss thing seems to be activating form of the killer, thus causing megalodon empowerment to turn off fast, but after you're already wild shape'd.

[TmasterT]

Now, let's read the Redcap.

We now know the terms we're using. A Level 10 human druid has 10 hit dice. Based on discussion in this thread, the standard redcap into which you are wild shaping has either 4 HD (standard interpretation) or 0 HD (some people's argued RAW interpretation, since - as stated - you "don't HAVE OR GAIN the racial HD of any creature" and thus cannot have any fey HD at all). So how many additional hit dice do you have? The answer is obviously 6 or inobviously 10. Certainly not zero.

Actually the Answer is you don't have any ADDITIONAL HD, you do have 10 humanoid (human) HD, and since your a humanoid with class levels that changes your (humanoid) racial levels into class levels. so in reality you have 10 Druid (human) levels. AS listed on page 290 of the monster manual under humanoids and class levels.

Again as i've stated the amount of Hit dice the form your changing into has absolutely zero bearing on what your forms stats are. (ie 0HD wolf, 10 HD wolf it doesn't matter) as long as that HD listed in the MM is equal to or less then your druid HD.

Now we'll go to the next page of the MM, page 292 under increasing HD. it very specifically says "if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type. thus the chart for increasing size listed right under is for improving by type (IE: animal, outsider, giant, etc..etc..)

Now again we'll look at Alternate form. alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)
The Creature retains its TYPE and SUBTYPE of its original form, it gains the size of the new form. Again ill point to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a

A creature retains its own type and subtypes when assuming a new form.

The creature's body might look and feel a little different, but it's still the same creature. Any vulnerabilities or immunities the creature has by virtue of its original type and subtype remain in the assumed form. For example a gold dragon retains its immunity to magic sleep and paralyzation effects (from its dragon type) even when it assumes an animal or humanoid form. It also retains its immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold (from its fire subtype) when in an assumed form.

A creature does not gain the assumed form's type or subtypes, and it does not gain any vulnerabilities or immunities from the assumed form's type and subtypes (with one exception noted in the sidebar and addressed later).

Special attacks or effects that depend on the recipient's type or subtypes affect a creature in an assumed form the same way they would affect the creature when it is in its natural form. For example, a ranger whose favored enemy is dragons meets a gold dragon that has assumed the form of a cat (a creature of the animal type). The ranger still benefits from the skill and combat bonuses her favored enemy class feature provides when she interacts with the masquerading dragon. Likewise, a ranger whose favored enemy is animals would not gain any benefits against the dragon, even when the dragon wears a cat's form.


Thus your druid 10 (human) never actually turns into 10 Fey (redcap) or 10 Animal (wolf) any advancement benefits by having or adding those types of HD aren't applicable.

Now you can argue that at 8th level a druid is allowed to assume the form of a large creature and since under the wolf entry there is a listing for a large variant. you could say the druid could change into it, and that's a grey area, but the druid is still ineligible for the benefits listed on MM292 chart 4-2 because that's for adding Type HD (animal, outsider, giant, etc..etc..) but he IS eligible for the benefits listed in MM314 chart 7-1 that lists the benefits of size by any creature, regardless of type or class. but again there is no rule saying that you can even do this, so its more a DM fiat.

Again ill point to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a
Assuming an Alternate Form

An alternate form is mostly physical. A creature in an alternate form retains its essential self, but changes its outward appearance and physical attributes.

Upon changing form, the creature gains the assumed form's size.

The size gained is always the size for a typical example of the assumed form's kind. A creature's typical size is listed at the top of its statistics block in the creature's description. Most creatures allow for some size variations, but those are for exceptional specimens. For example, a typical dire bear is size Large. Some dire bears are Huge (see the advancement section in the dire bear creature description), but if a creature assumes dire bear form through the alternate form class feature, it becomes Large.

It is possible for a creature description to specify a different size than the typical size for an assumed form, but an assumed form is limited to the typical size if a different size isn't specified.

A few creatures have a range of typical sizes. Examples include sharks, monstrous spiders, and tojanidas. In such cases the creature description specifies which sizes the assumed form can have. If not, alternate form allows the creature to assume any typical size. For example, a bronze dragon could assume the form of a Tiny, Small, or Medium viper because those are all typical sizes for vipers (see page 280 in the Monster Manual) and all fall within the range of sizes the dragon's alternate form power allows. Beware of additional blocks of statistics in a creature description that show the creature with a few levels added (such as the mummy lord), or creature descriptions that show alternative forms (such as lycanthropes). You can't use alternate form to assume a form with class levels or to assume another creature's alternative forms when shape shifting.