Help with Challenge Rating

[Lhurgyof]

So, for my campaign I need to convert a Nuckalavee to 3.5.

For the base stats, this is what I whipped up. Now, I don't really need help with the homebrew, I just need to know that based on how 3.5 is what the general challenge rating would be.

Nuckalavee
Size/Type: Large Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 11d8+33 (77 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), swim 60 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-1 Size, +4 Dex, +5 Natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+21
Attack: Bite +17 melee (2d6+10), Claw +17 melee (3d8+7), or Mighty Composite Longbow +14 ranged (2d6+7)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+10) and 2 Claws +17 melee (3d8+7), or Mighty Composite Longbow +14/+9/+4 ranged (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Aura of Death, Breath Weapon, Terrifying Presence
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/silver, Darkvision 60 ft., Immunity to fire and poison, Regeneration 5, Spell Resistance 21, Undead Affinity
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +8
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Diplomacy +13 (+18 when dealing with undead), Jump +19, Listen +15, Spot +15, Sense Motive +15, Swim +15
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ability Focus: Breath Weapon, Improved Natural Attack: Claw
Environment: Any Aquatic or Coastal
Organization: Solitary, Squad (1d3 plus 2d6 troll skeletons), Battalion (one 5th level cleric plus 2d3 plus 3d6 troll skeletons)
Challenge Rating: -
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: +5

Nuckalavee are evil amphibious creatures, related distantly to centaurs. These hideous beings are friendly with all types of undead. Living creatures, however, are things to be hated and exterminated.
A nuckalavee is shaped similarly to a centaur, but it has an enlarged, hideous head. The creature’s skin is transparent. The resulting visibility of white ropy muscles, yellow veins, orange arteries, black blood, and odd pulsating organs is quite horrible.
A putrid odor of decay wafts about these creatures. The stench is so strong and oppressive that it can be felt and tasted.
Nuckalavee speak Common and their own guttural language, and can communicate freely with all types of undead. The nuckalavee language is composed of gurgles, slurps, and clicks, and sounds harsh to the ears.

Combat
This creature’s existence is an affront to all living things. They relish in combat and only ever retreat if they are met with overwhelming forces.

Aura of Death (Su): The mere presence of a Nuckalavee destroys all living things around it. In a 120 foot radius, all living things with 2 hit dice or less are slain unless they succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC 14). The DC is charisma-based.

Breath Weapon (Su): 60 ft. Cone of Cold, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 6d6 cold, Reflex DC 20 half. The DC is constitution-based.

Regeneration (Ex): Silver weapons and spells cast by a good-aligned spellcaster deal normal damage to a Nuckalavee. If a Nuckalavee loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 2d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. In any round in which the Nuckalavee is immersed in water or has water drenched on it, it regenerates twice as many hit points.

Terrifying Presence (Ex): All creatures that approach within 50 ft. of a Nuckalavee must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 14) or become shaken for 2d6 rounds, once a creature has succeeded it is immune to a Nuckalavee’s terrifying presence for 24 hours. When a Nuckalavee drops a foe, all creatures within 50 ft. must save again, even if they succeeded the first time.

Undead Affinity (Ex): A Nuckalavee has an affinity with the undead, granting it +5 on diplomacy checks with undead creatures. In addition, any mindless undead will not attack a Nuckalavee unless ordered to do so or attacked by the Nuckalavee. Mindless Undead and Intelligent Undead must succeed on a DC 14 Will save to attack a Nuckalavee that has not attacked them. This ability is similar to the spell Sanctuary, except it only works against undead. The DC is charisma-based.

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/nuckalav.gif

[hemming]

Looks like a CR12 to me

[HammeredWharf]

CR12 is way too high. Compare to a CR 13 Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#glabrezu).

I'd say CR 6-8. Its hit points/saves/AC are near the average for CR 6, but it has lots of good special qualities. Bebilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#bebilith) is a CR10 creature with similarly good abilities, but twice as many HP and much better defenses.

[hemming]

Really? Even with Aura of Death, breath weapon, terrifying presence and ability to command undead - SR 21; also its aquatic, so you are fighting underwater

The Ethereal Slayer is a CR12 that is way easier than this guy

Comparing to the Glabrezu looks not too far off to me

Edit: Aura of death not as powerful as I originally read, so probably more like CR8-9

Through some evil cleric levels on this guy in an aquatic environment rich with life and he would be mighty scary though

[HammeredWharf]

Let's see:

Aura of Death:
Won't affect PCs above level 2.

Breath weapon:
This is just a CL6 Cone of Cold. Not bad, but not awesome, either. 21 damage on average, with a ref halves clause, is not a lot.

Terrifying Presense:
Shaken is a pretty ineffective condition. From the TO point of view, this ability could be combined (/abused) with Aura of Death to stack fear by killing ants or something like that, but it's not particularly powerful by itself.

Commanding undead:
Diplomacy is a powerful skill, but any allies gained this way will increase the CR, so they don't count.

So, it's a monster that can stack fear effects rather inefficiently and deal some cold damage. It can hit quite well and has great special qualities, but has few hit points, an awful AC and average saves. A moderately optimized level 6 party will drop this guy in a round or two.

Edit:

also its aquatic, so you are fighting underwater

Yes, that would increase the CR, if the party isn't aquatic. However, that's a circumstantial CR bonus that should be applied to the encounter, not the monster itself. IIRC the DMG says a terrain advantage could be a +1 or +2 and I agree.

Edit 2:
I'd rethink the full attack sequence or alter the other stats. This version is a bit glass cannony for my tastes. Also, isn't the attack bonus of the longbow wrong? 11 base +4 from dex is +15.

[hemming]

Terrifying Presense:
Shaken is a pretty ineffective condition. From the TO point of view, this ability could be combined (/abused) with Aura of Death to stack fear by killing ants or something like that, but it's not particularly powerful by itself.


Or fish - which is what I had in mind!

I was giving a rating on where I thought the CR system would place him more than anything else

Edit - After all the formian taskmaster is a CR7!

Though I do disagree that the SU or EX ability of a creature to summon, command or ignore damage from another creature should not be counted toward CR

[Diarmuid]

Where did you get the various DC's for this creatures's abilities? They all seem fairly haphazardly set. If you appropriately based those off 10+1/2 HD+Relevant Abiltiy, it might give a better sense of where this thing falls CR-wise. A powerful ability, but that has a crappy save doesnt add much (but it still can be potential lethal on a nat-1 save so it has to be taken into account).

Make everything this can do more uniform and I think you'll probably get a better consensus on it's power level.

[HammeredWharf]

I was giving a rating on where I thought the CR system would place him more than anything else

Edit - After all the formian taskmaster is a CR7!

I like giving rating based on my "solo warblade" test. If the creature is a tough, but doable challenge for a mid-op warblade of its CR, the CR is ok. The premade CR system is often too screwed up to be used in any serious way. A mid-op lvl 7 warblade could defeat a formian taskmaster blind and with one hand tied behind his back.


Though I do disagree that the SU or EX ability of a creature to summon, command or ignore damage from another creature should not be counted toward CR

I'm not sure about the official stance on that, but technically this guy could diplomance a CR40 mindless undead. I agree summoning, rebuking and other similar abilities should be included in a creature's CR, but diplomacy is a different beast. It's like counting a general's army in his personal CR.

[Lhurgyof]

Where did you get the various DC's for this creatures's abilities? They all seem fairly haphazardly set. If you appropriately based those off 10+1/2 HD+Relevant Abiltiy, it might give a better sense of where this thing falls CR-wise. A powerful ability, but that has a crappy save doesnt add much (but it still can be potential lethal on a nat-1 save so it has to be taken into account).

Make everything this can do more uniform and I think you'll probably get a better consensus on it's power level.

The breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 HD (5) + Con Mod (3) + Ability Focus Feat (2) = 20

The other abilities are charisma-based. So the DC is 10 + 1/2 HD (5) + Charisma Mod (-1) = 14.



Edit 2:
I'd rethink the full attack sequence or alter the other stats. This version is a bit glass cannony for my tastes. Also, isn't the attack bonus of the longbow wrong? 11 base +4 from dex is +15.

He gets -1 size penalty due to being large-sized. Also, I'm thinking of removing the hoof attacks and just leaving it with claw/claw/bite. I'm going to alter this with Class Levels so I just wanted to know how to scale it accordingly. Currently the party consists of about 6 level 9's, on their way to 10. They might even hit 11 before they even see this guy.

[hemming]

He gets -1 size penalty due to being large-sized. Also, I'm thinking of removing the hoof attacks and just leaving it with claw/claw/bite. I'm going to alter this with Class Levels so I just wanted to know how to scale it accordingly. Currently the party consists of about 6 level 9's, on their way to 10. They might even hit 11 before they even see this guy.

Awesome monster BTW - so much of how difficult the encounter is going to be will be determined by how you choose the environment, available resources (living and dead) and levels for him - I definitely think they'll make for good encounters at level 11

The set-up you've got planned for a battalion of these guys is pretty nasty

Edit: I kind of think you should give them an aquatic skeleton option (sharks?) instead of the troll skeletons

Double edit:


I'm not sure about the official stance on that, but technically this guy could diplomance a CR40 mindless undead. I agree summoning, rebuking and other similar abilities should be included in a creature's CR, but diplomacy is a different beast. It's like counting a general's army in his personal CR.

I give him a little boost for CR for having the ability to do so but would still the count the CR of the influenced creature independently as well

[Lhurgyof]

Awesome monster BTW - so much of how difficult the encounter is going to be will be determined by how you choose the environment, available resources (living and dead) and levels for him - I definitely think they'll make for good encounters at level 11

The set-up you've got planned for a battalion of these guys is pretty nasty

Edit: I kind of think you should give them an aquatic skeleton option (sharks?) instead of the troll skeletons

Double edit:



I give him a little boost for CR for having the ability to do so but would still the count the CR of the influenced creature independently as well

Currently the party has an arcane archer, a mounted fighter, two overlords (they use massive ammounts of minions), a ranged ranger, and a straight up fighter. One guy just made a bard that inspires for +12. :smalleek:

It's hard to challenge them while not killing them with monsters that are too hard. The PC's are like glass cannons so most monsters need a ton of extra hp or they die round 1.

Edit: I know that D&D becomes rocket tag at high levels, but they're level 9. Encounters using multiple monsters of their CR work for good fights.

[HammeredWharf]

He gets -1 size penalty due to being large-sized. Also, I'm thinking of removing the hoof attacks and just leaving it with claw/claw/bite. I'm going to alter this with Class Levels so I just wanted to know how to scale it accordingly. Currently the party consists of about 6 level 9's, on their way to 10. They might even hit 11 before they even see this guy.

That would still make the attack bonus +14 instead of the +11 it is now.

Class levels could make this monster a lot more powerful, depending on the class, of course. As-is, though, 76 HP and 16 AC for a CR 11 monster is way too low. A normal lvl 11 barbarian deals at least 40 damage per strike with full Power Attack, meaning he would down this guy in two hits. That's one round with Pounce.

[Lhurgyof]

That would still make the attack bonus +14 instead of the +11 it is now.

Class levels could make this monster a lot more powerful, depending on the class, of course. As-is, though, 76 HP and 16 AC for a CR 11 monster is way too low. A normal lvl 11 barbarian deals at least 40 damage per strike with full Power Attack, meaning he would down this guy in two hits. That's one round with Pounce.

Good catch! I originally had it at 13 dex and I forgot to change his bow's to-hit.

I'm thinking cleric or knight levels for him. He's going to be captain of the guard at an all-undead city.