Bad Prestige Classes with Good Quality

[Skysaber]

Same as the title. What prestige classes are out there that you would never take (except as maybe a dip), but that have a feature or two that's actually tempting (if it weren't attached to the rest of that class).

Two I can think of off the top of my mind are the Knight of the Thorn PrC out of the Dragonlance campaign setting, that at first level offers a free specialization in Divination, complete with extra spells.

Also Shiba Protector out of Oriental Adventures, that gives your Wis bonus to hit and damage.

Great features. Bad classes.

[NoACWarrior]

Ronin (CWar): Banzai Charge - a great charger ability but the rest of the class is just meh with Sneak attack and a few bonus feats, why bother taking any of it when you could take another PrC or even base class?

Maester (CAdv): quick crafting 1st level - able to make a magic item in half the time! Spell progression isn't too bad, and getting an additional bonus feat can be helpful. Spell like identify at will is meh. Otherwise a poor mans version of artificer.

Tenebrous Apostate (ToM): Improved Turn / rebuke deals damage or heals damage to undead - twice as strong as the alternate turn rules from complete divine. advancing caster level and binder level at the same time isn't too bad, but if you were here to get the stronger turning, and want to get other divine abilities you don't need to continue at all.

Enlightend Fist (CArc): Hold Ray, a unique ability when lets you change a ray spell into a melee touch spell, combine it with arcane channel and you can channel scorching rays. But you have to be Lvl7 in this PrC first...

Dread Commando (HoB): Team initiative bonus and then stealthy movement, both great abilities, the first one to buff everyone's initiative, the second one to hide from everyone so they don't get said buff...

Edit: Didn't read the bad part, cut 3 classes from the listing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Mindbender: Telepathy at first level, easy qualification. The abilities aren't that bad but the halved caster progression kills it. Changing it to have the same progression as Thrallherd would make it decent imo.

[Jeff the Green]

Mindbender: Telepathy at first level, easy qualification. The abilities aren't that bad but the halved caster progression kills it. Changing it to have the same progression as Thrallherd would make it decent imo.

Mindbender has more than one level?

Blood Magus for me. I love the 10th-level ability, but he others are pretty meh and I've never played a game where the capstone was likely to see play.

[DarkSonic1337]

Spellsword.

Storing the spells as a move action is actually really nice, reducing ASF is nice, and the double channel at the end would be awesome...if not for the terrible spell progression (seriously this should've been 7-8/10 spellcasting.

Arcane Archer...yeah should just progress spellcasting instead of having it's own list. Shooting spells way past their range is cool though.

[Elric VIII]

Tenebrous Apostate (ToM): Improved Turn / rebuke deals damage or heals damage to undead - twice as strong as the alternate turn rules from complete divine. advancing caster level and binder level at the same time isn't too bad, but if you were here to get the stronger turning, and want to get other divine abilities you don't need to continue at all.

Enlightend Fist (CArc): Hold Ray, a unique ability when lets you change a ray spell into a melee touch spell, combine it with arcane channel and you can channel scorching rays. But you have to be Lvl7 in this PrC first...

Both of these are full casting, dual-progression PrCs. They really can't be all that bad.

My vote goes to Void Disciple from Complete Divine. They have a no-save scrying ability that only needs a skill check, a once/day Moment of Prescience ability, a nice saving throw debuff, and the ability to grant allies skills or feats. If it didn't lose 5 CL over 13 levels it would be very solid.

[HammeredWharf]

My vote goes to Void Disciple from Complete Divine. They have a no-save scrying ability that only needs a skill check, a once/day Moment of Prescience ability, a nice saving throw debuff, and the ability to grant allies skills or feats. If it didn't lose 5 CL over 13 levels it would be very solid.

It's no Incantatrix, but it is a decent class. Its scrying abilities Just Work (TM) even if their target has maximized scrying protection and Void Suppression is a nasty "you suck, no save" ability. You lose four caster levels by going Void Disciple 12, but it's almost worth it. Level 13 is definitely not worth taking, though.

[John Longarrow]

Dragonslayer.
Easy to get into, FULL BAB, good HPs. Caster level at 1st AND immune to fear.

Now if it just either had more casting OR was better for a non-caster, it would be set. As is I only dip a single level.

[Karnith]

True Necromancer and Yathrinshee are a pair of thematically similar theurge PrCs that are generally horrible (CL-stacking is pretty much the only reason to use them), but they both have really cool abilities. TN offers a constant aura of desecration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) and some fairly big CL increases. Yathrinshee has a number of good, or at least interesting, class features, the most famous is Curse of the Revenancer, which makes anything you kill become a zombie under your control for free, but it also has a Zone of Desecration ability and a CL-stacking ability.

[Dr. Cliché]

I seem to recall a class that let you spend time and resources to create creatures.

However, my memories on said class are pretty vague - I remember that the class 'features' include loss of wisdom as you go mad, and I think the strength of the creatures you can create depends on your class level.

Anyone know which class I'm thinking of?

[RolandDeschain]

On a slightly different note the Urban Savant is a d6 hit dice, 6 +Int skills with full caster progression prc. The class features are terrible, or it would nice filler for a skillful wizard...

[Shining Wrath]

Ashworm Dragoon.

Good: You get a (renamed) sandworm to ride upon! The cool is with you!
Bad: You're now a dedicated mounted combat specialist and worse than a fighter if you can't ride.

[amalcon]

Arcane Archer, of course. The level 2 ability (Imbue Arrow) is actually excellent, and the level 4+6 abilities (while not good) at least have some interesting tricks with things like creatures polymorphed into arrows.

Too bad everything else about the class is worthless.

[Segev]

War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) has a lot of potential for either allowing a non-manifesting combat class to gain limited manifesting. Pity it's native progression is really not very good, and renders it terrible for anybody who already had manifesting capability. It's dreadful for a psywarrior for that reason.

Sweeping Strike is still pretty nice, though.

[_flint_]

I seem to recall a class that let you spend time and resources to create creatures.

However, my memories on said class are pretty vague - I remember that the class 'features' include loss of wisdom as you go mad, and I think the strength of the creatures you can create depends on your class level.

Anyone know which class I'm thinking of?

effigy master. I've been wanting to play one for a while. There's an exploit no sane DM would allow that lets you stack templates on the creatures for free seeing as the cost to build is determined by hit dice, not LA

[dysprosium]

Master of Masks should be considered for this list. Quite handy to pick up proficiency with every single weapon in the game through the gladiator mask.

[Meth In a Mine]

Knight Protector: Awesome concept, Supreme Cleave and No Mercy are cool, but Best Effort sucks so bad.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

If you hadn't said "Prestige Classes" in the title, I'd nominate Monk.

[Nihilarian]

War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) has a lot of potential for either allowing a non-manifesting combat class to gain limited manifesting. Pity it's native progression is really not very good, and renders it terrible for anybody who already had manifesting capability. It's dreadful for a psywarrior for that reason.

Sweeping Strike is still pretty nice, though.A melee Ardent can take 5 levels and still get 9th level powers.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Cerebrex. 8+Int skill points on a wizard chassis, enhanced senses, a ton of goodies... and half casting.
Entropomancer also has a ton of amazing goodies at higher levels, including the hilarious immunity to spheres of annihilation (I was an meanie once and took one into the Tomb of Horrors). Again... half casting.
Also no idea is Frost Rager is good. If it is not I vote we add it to the list.

[Talionis]

Marshall may not technically be a prestige class, but it might as well be since no one takes it past a one level dip to get Charisma to something. The class is otherwise pretty silly and ought to at least be full BAB.

[Azoth]

Arcane Duelist- It has a sweet capstone. Creating 1d4+3 quasi real versions of you that do the same damage per hit as you do as subdual damage on targets you hit 10/day. It however requires spellcasting but doesn't progress it at all and only gives 1/2BAB for a 10lvl prestige class.

[Nihilarian]

Arcane Duelist- It has a sweet capstone. Creating 1d4+3 quasi real versions of you that do the same damage per hit as you do as subdual damage on targets you hit 10/day. It however requires spellcasting but doesn't progress it at all and only gives 1/2BAB for a 10lvl prestige class.The Arcane Duelist is a tough one. However, you can utilize Legacy Champion to at least snag 16 BAB.

I'll throw out the Shadow Sentinel. Like most weapons gained from a class feature, it just doesn't scale well.

[Psyren]

Psionic PrCs have a lot that is tempting.

Metamind: 3 words, "Font of Power"

Psion Uncarnate: Constant incorporeality.

Zerth Cenobite: Can literally punch somebody into next week.

Psychic Weapon Master: Store a second psionic focus in your weapon.

Psibond Agent: Supernatural Dominate Monster is scary.

Elocater: Gives you a 2nd 5-foot step.

Ebon Saint: Two words, "Mind Interrogation." Can break any campaign centered around a mystery.

[Dr. Cliché]

effigy master. I've been wanting to play one for a while. There's an exploit no sane DM would allow that lets you stack templates on the creatures for free seeing as the cost to build is determined by hit dice, not LA

Hmm, I don't think effigy master was what I was thinking of.

I think it was called 'Soulshaper', or something similar.

[KorbeltheReader]

Master Transmogrifist, Complete Arcane. Gain free still and silent spell on the polymorph line, the ability to cast them as an immediate action 1/day, gain your form's senses and extraordinary special qualities, and at capstone you can even blend two forms.

Unfortunately, as with many of the caster prcs, it's only 2/3 casting progression.

[Meth In a Mine]

Dwarven/Stalwart Defender: A lovable concept, but have the problem of only being effective when they're blocking a tight corridor against foes too dumb to engage him at range.

[Skysaber]

Hmm, I don't think effigy master was what I was thinking of.

I think it was called 'Soulshaper', or something similar.

Soulforger, on page 28 of Quintessential Wizard. They create life, and go mad as they go up in levels of the class.

In the same book they have Wordbearer, which gets some unique and powerful Power Word abilities - but it's an arcane casting class that does nothing to advance your spellcasting.

[Telonius]

Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm). Divine Reach, Faith Healing, even Master of Energy... If only it advanced spellcasting. :smallfrown:

Though I'd really be tempted to put it on a cohort, if I were a Cleric. Nothing says "DMM Persist!" like two classes' worth of turn attempts.

[Thurbane]

Am I the only who misread this as Bard Prestige Classes with Good Quality? :smalltongue:

[Nihilarian]

Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm). Divine Reach, Faith Healing, even Master of Energy... If only it advanced spellcasting. :smallfrown:

Though I'd really be tempted to put it on a cohort, if I were a Cleric. Nothing says "DMM Persist!" like two classes' worth of turn attempts.That one annoys me. It's obviously meant to be the Archmage's counterpart, so why is it so much worse?

You might be able to make something of it with gestalt, I guess.

[Invader]

Sentinel of Bharrai because

CALVARY OF DIRE BEARS!!

The rest of the class is pretty unappetizing and the prereqs are garbage so I'll never get to use it...

[Nihilarian]

Sentinel of Bharrai because

CALVARY OF DIRE BEARS!!Sentinel of Bharrai is amazing. At the very least, it has full spellcasting progression, so you aren't hurting yourself by taking it.

I like using it on Warlock or Shadowcaster builds.

[Invader]

Sentinel of Bharrai is amazing. At the very least, it has full spellcasting progression, so you aren't hurting yourself by taking it.

I like using it on Warlock or Shadowcaster builds.

Just the fact that it advances another class doesn't cancel out the fact that the actual class itself needs help though.

[Nihilarian]

Just the fact that it advances another class doesn't cancel out the fact that the actual class itself needs help though.You get to turn into a bear. I'm not seeing the problem here.

[Invader]

For one it only gives you d4 hit points, poor BAB, the prereqs are pretty worthless and your abilities come online to late.

[Invader]

Even CoDB (as much as I love the concept) is lackluster with its paltry 1/week use and chance of summoning a good amount of bears.

[Kuulvheysoon]

For one it only gives you d4 hit points, poor BAB, the prereqs are pretty worthless and your abilities come online to late.

Dude, it summons an army of bears. It's never too late to summon an army of bears.

[Nihilarian]

Yeah, but I don't think you understand. You can turn into a bear.

[rmnimoc]

I love the Alienist. The pseudonatural template is awesome, but you get it at first level and every bit of the class after that is rather lame. I hate PrCs that penalize you for taking them (even if it makes sense, like the penalty to Wisdom for summoning creatures from the far planes), and the benefits are...all over the place. A +1 bonus to saves, two metamagic bonus feats, 6 hp, a template for the familiar, a template for summons*, no longer ages (though not immortal, just stolen by Cthulhu instead of dying), **dr 10/magic, resistance 10 acid and electricity, becomes an outsider, and gains a new limb that just does whatever it wants**. At least it still gives full progression for casting and familiars.

*The good quality
**The level 10 capstone

[Invader]

Yeah, but I don't think you understand. You can turn into a bear.

Yeah I do understand and it gives you crappy hit die, crappy base attack, makes you take 2 feats that are pointless to a bear and the ability comes to late. If half it's schtick is to make you a bear, it should make you a better bear not a worse one.

[The Trickster]

In addition to the classes already discussed, I also liked the tenth level of elemental savant (energy immunity, crit immunity, possible flight/burrow speed, etc).

The Master of the Unseen Hand has lots of nifty features, but doesn't progress spellcasting (which is a shame).

[TheIronGolem]

Pale Master. Awesome fluff, lousy crunch. Undead Graft is a really cool idea that ends up being nearly useless in actual play, since it targets the save most monsters are strongest in and the DC scales badly. And your first level in the class gets you...drumroll, please...+2 Will save.

Duelist. It was fairly good in 3.0, but then whoops, where do you think you're going with that semi-respectable damage, mister non-two-handed guy? And while you're at it, hand over that full INT bonus to AC so we can piecemeal it back to you one class level at a time, because that's definitely a better way to discourage dipping than having actual good class features later on! Now take this crippled version of Deflect Arrows and run along, son.

[Nihilarian]

Yeah I do understand and it gives you crappy hit die, crappy base attack, makes you take 2 feats that are pointless to a bear and the ability comes to late. If half it's schtick is to make you a bear, it should make you a better bear not a worse one.There's just no pleasing some people.

Anyway, I really like Seeker of the Song, but it's so late entry and doesn't advance casting. Even worse, it sits right next to the Sublime Chord.

[TypoNinja]

Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm). Divine Reach, Faith Healing, even Master of Energy... If only it advanced spellcasting. :smallfrown:

Though I'd really be tempted to put it on a cohort, if I were a Cleric. Nothing says "DMM Persist!" like two classes' worth of turn attempts.

Makes it great for level 21+ though since it still advances Caster Level.

I wanna say Master Thrower. Its a great PrC if you wanna do a thrown weapon character, but it ends too soon. 5 levels of fighter, five of Master thrower, and then what?

Makes it a bit of a trap in my opinion, "Great a throwing things PrC" but once you are done with it, that's it, no follow ups.

Epic Mystic Thurge is the definition of useless. Not only do epic PrC expansion rules (for taking 10 level PRC's past 10) make it entirely redundant, its strictly inferior to taking alternating levels of your original two base spell casting classes.

It switches from a Dual progression at each level to alternating Divine or Arcane progression each level.

Literally any other combination of two full casting PrC's is a better choice.

[Magikeeper]

I wanna say Master Thrower. Its a great PrC if you wanna do a thrown weapon character, but it ends too soon. 5 levels of fighter, five of Master thrower, and then what?

Makes it a bit of a trap in my opinion, "Great a throwing things PrC" but once you are done with it, that's it, no follow ups.

...Bloodstorm Blade? Master Thrower 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4 (exact order varies) forms the heart of many an optimized thrower build.


-------------------

I imagine an even longer list would be "Prestige class abilities that would be good if they either
A) Were not once per day.
B) Did not have some pathetically low cap on their scaling that prevents them from staying relevant.
C) Did not have a low/non-scaling save DC.
D) Were not once per day."

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, I second the nomination of Zerth Conobite. It has a lot of cool abilities. Virtually all of them are 1/day, and many of them could stand to be once per encounter or even at will. Timeless Body would be fine at 1/day if the rest of the class had any staying power.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Am I the only who misread this as Bard Prestige Classes with Good Quality? :smalltongue:

No, no, Bards are rad, not bad. :smallbiggrin:

[Arbane]

On a slightly different note the Urban Savant is a d6 hit dice, 6 +Int skills with full caster progression prc. The class features are terrible, or it would nice filler for a skillful wizard...

It still sounds strictly superior to straight Wizard. Does it have bogus requirements to get into, or is it just not as much better than straight Wizard as other PrCs are?

[ben-zayb]

+Domain PrCs like Contemplative, Church Inquisitor, Holt Warden, Seeker of the Misty Isle, etc.
Sacred Exorcist (for the Turn Undead)
Loremaster (useful for other PrCs that already need Skill Focus)
Exemplar (for Skill Mastery)
Chameleon (not bad, but diptastic for floating feat)
Wyrm Wizard (for free Spell known, bad because of half progression)
Tainted Scholar and Cancer Mage (for breaking the game)
UR-PRIEST (yeah, you want double/triple 9s)
Do Prestige Ranger/Bard/Paladin count? Because yeah...

[Valtu]

Enlightend Fist (CArc): Hold Ray, a unique ability when lets you change a ray spell into a melee touch spell, combine it with arcane channel and you can channel scorching rays. But you have to be Lvl7 in this PrC first...

Is Enlightened Fist considered a crappy PrC? My current character (only the 2nd I've ever played) is, and while I am short a couple caster levels at present, overall I like it alright. The Arcane Rejuvenation class feature is just about worthless, and it does rely a lot on touch spells, but with a level of Monk and the Ascetic Mage feat, I have pretty good AC for having to be in melee frequently (also with Mage Armor all day long).

I may not play one again for quite a while, but so far my experience with it hasn't been bad.

[Pex]

I'll second Heirophant. It should have been just one prestige class with Archmage and use the term Archmage/Heirophant depending on whether you were an arcane or divine caster respectively.

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil. I know people love this prestige class, but the entry requirements are awful. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Abjuration are a total waste of two feats. No Abjuration spell has a saving throw until 4th level, for Dismissal, which is not themed to the prestige class. Even then there are very few Abjuration spells that have saving throws at all. Since the prestige class is about the rainbow and Prismatic Sphere, the "ultimate" 9th level rainbow spell which is an Abjuration spell with a saving throw, that's probably where the idea of Spell Focus Abjuration came from.

[Chester]

TheIronGolem said exactly what I was thinking. Pale Master's graft sounds absolutely terrifying . . .

. . . But that first level hurts.

Precisely why I've decided to keep my dread necro a dread necro!

[Petrocorus]

Ardent Dilettante. You lose a CL at first level and the entry requirement are weird. But you get 6 skill point and all skill as class skills.

Geomancer. Dual casting PrC that advance only one casting at a time, but some of the abilities are good and flavourful. Now, if you try it on a Sha'Ir...

[JaronK]

Ronin (CWar): Tenebrous Apostate (ToM): Improved Turn / rebuke deals damage or heals damage to undead - twice as strong as the alternate turn rules from complete divine. advancing caster level and binder level at the same time isn't too bad, but if you were here to get the stronger turning, and want to get other divine abilities you don't need to continue at all.

This is an amazing PrC. Note that you can combine it with Anima Mage, since that class mentions that it should be adapted into a divine version as well. Tenebrous Apostate is part of one of the single most powerful no infinite loop builds around, namely Binder 1/Archivist 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5.

Totally worth it.

Meanwhile Heirophant is amazing in Gestalt, but worthless everywhere else.

Anyway, my nomination is Hellbreaker, for being the only PrC to explicitly negate Mindsight. Nifty! There's just not much else to the class though.

JaronK

[MadGreenSon]

Ardent Dilettante. You lose a CL at first level and the entry requirement are weird. But you get 6 skill point and all skill as class skills.


Ardent Dilettante is one of my favorite PrCs just because you'll need to have some serious character mileage to get all the way through it.

I'd love to play a character through all the levels, meeting all the requirements. It pretty much guarantees a seriously interesting game.

[Petrocorus]

Ardent Dilettante is one of my favorite PrCs just because you'll need to have some serious character mileage to get all the way through it.

I'd love to play a character through all the levels, meeting all the requirements. It pretty much guarantees a seriously interesting game.

Actually, i do like the class, i worked on a build with a Sha'Ir and AD, to make it some kind of skilled party face in addition of primary arcane caster. It can work well with some abuse of Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) to solve the proficiencies issues, and even some of the skill issues. You still lose a CL though.

It's still considered a bad class because for any other base casting class, it will force you to multiclass into dual casting, but doesn't advance both casting.

The capstone can be really cool however, and open to some abuse.

[Meth In a Mine]

The Occult Slayer. An always-on mind blank is very attractive, as well as the ability to deflect spells, but the mind blank requires 5 levels, and at best you only get to deflect spells twice per day.

[The Grue]

Duelist, for Elaborate Parry and Canny Defense.

If, you know, neither of them were tied to your levels in a terrible class.

[Nihilarian]

The Occult Slayer. An always-on mind blank is very attractive, as well as the ability to deflect spells, but the mind blank requires 5 levels, and at best you only get to deflect spells twice per day.The Mind Blank ability is neat because it's nonmagical.