[PF] What items can be made without knowing the spell?

[Barstro]

A PC is doing some crafting in a Pathfinder campaign, and I'm trying to wrap my head around the Spellcraft check and knowing the spell.

TL;DR version;
What items can be made when the crafter does not know the spells?

Magic Item Creation
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

So, a sorcerer who has every craft feat wants to make some things.
In this hypothetical, he does not know any spells or metamagic feats.
He wants to make the following;

Long Version
Scroll
Scroll of haste
No, it's a scroll?

Rod

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast
Elemental Metamagic Rod
Craft Rod, Elemental Spell (feat)
Yes, no spells are involved?
+5 because he does not have Elemental Spell Feat?

Immovable Rod
Craft Rod, Levitate (spell)
Yes, but with +5 for not knowing the spell?
No, he does not have the spell prepared?

Potion
Potion of cure light wounds
No, it's a potion?

Potion of Expeditious retreat
No, it's a potion
ALSO
No, it's a potion that cannot be made by anyone?

Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions
So, cannot even be made?

Wand
Wand of fireball

Weapon
Keen

Armor
Brawling Armor

Item; Constant
Belt of incredible dex

Item; Use
Boots of teleportation


Item; custom
Cast a spell (arcane, but not on Sorcerer list) 2x per day


Thank you

[Psyren]

Your first quote has the answer. Without having access to the spells, you cannot make the following:

1) Spell Trigger items (wands and staves)
2) Spell Completion items (scrolls)
3) Potions

Everything else can be made by ignoring prereqs. So the Rods one, even though it mentions needing the spell to be prepared - that is a prerequisite that can be ignored by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5, because rods are neither spell-trigger nor spell-completion items.


So to summarize; a PC spellcaster can make the following without knowing the required spells:

1) Wondrous Items
2) Magic Armor/Weapons
3) Rods
4) Rings
5) Constructs

Whereas a PC non-spellcaster can make the following (needing Master Craftsman of course):

1) Wondrous Items
2) Magic Armor/Weapons

[Barstro]

Thank you, Psyren.

I guess part of the issue is that I don't fully understand "Trigger" and "Completion".

Personal gripe;
Why can everyone make a X/day item, but only a caster with the spell prepared be able to make a one-time-use item?

[Psyren]

Thank you, Psyren.

I guess part of the issue is that I don't fully understand "Trigger" and "Completion".

The main difference is that spell trigger is easier. Even a level 1 wizard can use a wand of fireball easily, but that same wizard using a scroll of fireball would be more dangerous. (i.e. the scroll is above their level, so they have to roll a CL check, and risk a mishap.) Spell trigger items also do not provoke, and can even be used while grappled (provided you already have them in your hand.)



Personal gripe;
Why can everyone make a X/day item, but only a caster with the spell prepared be able to make a one-time-use item?

Not sure what you mean here; there are plenty of X/day wondrous items out there that anyone can make. For example, Winged Boots let you fly 3/day.

[Slipperychicken]

Thank you, Psyren.

I guess part of the issue is that I don't fully understand "Trigger" and "Completion".

Personal gripe;
Why can everyone make a X/day item, but only a caster with the spell prepared be able to make a one-time-use item?

I think of spell completion and potions like you're just storing the spell in the item, while wondrous items and such rely on a different process.

[Psyren]

A custom wondrous item can literally do anything. So if you want a "wand" that anybody can make and anyone can use, just make a wondrous item that happens to be wand-shaped.

Or if you want a "wand" that only spellcasters can make, but don't care whether those casters happen to be arcane or divine, and you want anyone to be able to use it, make it a rod.

[Slipperychicken]

A custom wondrous item can literally do anything. So if you want a "wand" that anybody can make and anyone can use, just make a wondrous item that happens to be wand-shaped.

Or if you want a "wand" that only spellcasters can make, but don't care whether those casters happen to be arcane or divine, and you want anyone to be able to use it, make it a rod.

You could totally do that, but it's cheesy as hell

Not game-breakingly so, but it obsoletes several item types by bypassing the restrictions which are supposed to balance them.

[Barstro]

Not sure what you mean here; there are plenty of X/day wondrous items out there that anyone can make. For example, Winged Boots let you fly 3/day.

That's my point. It appears to me that anyone can make a powerful item (Wondrous of 3x/day), but only a spellcaster can make a crappier version (scroll that allows for attack of opportunity if an enemy is in melee).

Why would anyone want a scroll/wand/potion when an item can do the same thing? (ignoring 50 charges vs. 3/day)

Or am I missing something?

[Psyren]

That's my point. It appears to me that anyone can make a powerful item (Wondrous of 3x/day), but only a spellcaster can make a crappier version (scroll that allows for attack of opportunity if an enemy is in melee).

Why would anyone want a scroll/wand/potion when an item can do the same thing? (ignoring 50 charges vs. 3/day)

Or am I missing something?

Because for most spells this would require an unlisted/nonexistent item, which as Slipperychicken noted, are custom and therefore require DM approval. I mean, obvioulsy from a certain POV everything in the game requires DM approval, but if there's no entry you can point to in a book and say "I want to make X" and there's no series of forum posts where people talk about the benefits and dangers of X, then the DM has more solid ground with which to deny or modify X.

There's also the fact that most wondrous items take up a body slot, while scrolls/wands do not. You can certainly make unslotted ones, but this both increases the cost as well as the grounds for the DM to say no.

What it boils down to is that item creation assumes a high degree of DM vetting/participation as a baseline. If you have a DM that simply rubberstamps anything you can devise, then yes the balance of the game is going to be precarious. But the tools are there so that they can come up with ways to mechanically realize reasonable concepts on a case-by-case basis.