Robinsons: can 1st level party survive without access to civilization?

[SinsI]

Inspired by "optimized child-rearing in magical world".

Let's say a 1st level party that belonged to a magic-rich urban environment, while routinely commuting via a Gate due to some error was transported into an Uninhabited Tropical Terrain (possibly - island) setting.
The Clerics (if any) lost access to their Gods, so the place is extremely remote, and no method of communication is possible.
Any way back will require casting (and researching) Gate.

Can a party of 1st level D&D urban dwellers survive without access to civilization? What builds can be optimal for long-term prosperity? How can they solve basic problems such as food, clothing and shelter?

Note that only Urban variants of classes like Ranger or Druid are available, no one should have any ranks in Survival skill (since it abstracts away too many things). Any Cleric will have to switch worship to be able to cast again.

[malonkey1]

no one should have any ranks in Survival skill

This part means they may be boned, if only for the first level or two. If they can have ranks it'd be better, but the problem is that it'll be cross-class, so they'll still run into problems, especially since they would lack the tools and supplies to make a masterwork tool for the skill and would not have magical items. What I'd do is have a character have Able Learner so they don't have to spend double points on cross-class skills, or ideally see if they can get Factotum in their build so they can have ALL CLASS SKILLS (must be all caps :smalltongue:).

[Mnemnosyne]

Seeing as they're first level, it wouldn't kill their builds to switch to classes more conducive to the situation upon gaining 2nd level. Anyone with no wisdom penalty can take 10 on Survival to get along themselves...if the group has someone with a Wisdom penalty, they need one person with a Wis bonus of at least +2 for each one with a penalty (or someone's going to have to take their chances actually rolling survival). At least until they have magical means of handling the food and water issue.

Clothing and shelter, as far as I can recall, are not required unless the group is in an area where the weather gets to extreme levels, and even then, a single level in Dragonfire Adept from a single member of the party will resolve that problem with endure elements (and is likely to be a very useful level in general too, since it provides great infinite battlefield control with an entangling exhalation feat).

They won't have optimized magical items due to the lack of being able to trade for them, but assuming the island has dungeons and places to level up in, they should find some sort of loot. They may die in the process, perhaps with a somewhat higher chance than adventurers in a civilized place, but they also have a reasonable chance at making it high enough level to escape.

[Ravens_cry]

Survival can be used untrained and, assuming average wisdom, they can get food and water for themselves by taking 10.

[SinsI]

Survival can be used untrained and, assuming average wisdom, they can get food and water for themselves by taking 10.

The problem is this:

Action Varies. A single Survival check may represent activity over the course of hours or a full day. A Survival check made to find tracks is at least a full-round action, and it may take even longer.
Try Again

Varies. For getting along in the wild or for gaining the Fortitude save bonus noted in the table above, you make a Survival check once every 24 hours. The result of that check applies until the next check is made.

You can't take 10 on Survival.

[Mnemnosyne]

The problem is this:


You can't take 10 on Survival.

I see nothing in the quoted text that suggests an inability to take 10 on survival.

[Ravens_cry]

I see nothing in the quoted text that suggests an inability to take 10 on survival.
I agree, not seeing where it says you can't take 10.

[Killer Angel]

Are we talking 'bout theoretical builds? (aka: do the players know what will happen to their characters, and can they prepare the builds knowing the limitations you'd set?)

[SinsI]

I agree, not seeing where it says you can't take 10.
It takes 24 hours for a single Survival check. If you are threatened during those 24 hours (and you probably will), you won't be able to take 10.


Are we talking 'bout theoretical builds? (aka: do the players know what will happen to their characters, and can they prepare the builds knowing the limitations you'd set?)

Ordinary 1st level builds suited for high-magic urban environment. Gate malfunction is a surprise to them.

[Killer Angel]

I see nothing in the quoted text that suggests an inability to take 10 on survival.

Even if you can take 10, and if you aren't threatened, I suppose a DM can impose circumstance modifiers for favorable and unfavorable conditions. There's a difference if you take 10 to find water, if you are in a forest or in a desert...

[Vhaidara]

Another argument against taking 10 on Survival: you are threatened by starvation/dehydration if you fail. Also, it kind of defeats the point of the exercise if you can.

[Ravens_cry]

Another argument against taking 10 on Survival: you are threatened by starvation/dehydration if you fail. Also, it kind of defeats the point of the exercise if you can.
That's not how threatened works. You can take 10 on swim checks in clam water, even though you are 'threatened' by drowning if you fail.
Survival is a very abstract skill. You might be hunting squirrels or picking berries and mushrooms. If you want danger and risk, use Survival to track a wild animal and set up a combat encounter with it.

[Killer Angel]

Just checked.
The PHB, cites circumstance modifiers for favorable and unfavorable conditions, using as example... guess what? the survival skill, with Kursk searching for food.
So, you can take 10 by RAW, but the success is not guaranteed.

[Mnemnosyne]

Even if there is a circumstance penalty that makes taking 10 on survival ineffective, obtaining food and water tends to be trivial. If there is a cleric in the party, they can switch deities and have access to spells to provide water, or an urban druid can do it as well. Food is a much less problematic issue, since it takes 4 days before a character even has to make a check against the effects of starvation. As long as each character makes at least one successful survival check every four days (or more, if they pass their checks) they will take no penalties from lack of food. That will keep everyone conscious until they get high enough level to either put sufficient ranks into survival to not fail the checks, or resolve the food problem via other means, like taking a level of druid or healer for goodberry.

[Techwarrior]

I can't find it right now, but I know I've seen a rule that says you can't even take 10 if you don't have ranks in the skill.

[Daer]

making survival on such game just for roll is pretty boring way.

but i don't see any reason why they couldn't survive as long enviroment isn't too hostile for them to handle and players are creative.

[DeltaEmil]

I can't find it right now, but I know I've seen a rule that says you can't even take 10 if you don't have ranks in the skill.You might have confused that with the Aid Another action, in which you aren't allowed to take 10.

For the Take 10 rule, the only requirement is that you are able to roll the check at all. For example, you cannot take 10 with a Profession skill if you're not trained in Profession, because that skill is trained only.

[Feint's End]

Party consisting of Elans wouldn't have a problem surviving. Assuming all of them are psionic classes they can basically do everything for themselves (as in they don't need material components or a god) except for getting food (and this is covered by their racial ability).

So assuming the usual party of 4:
-Shaper Psion (brutes, creation of items) who used to work at building sites
-Vitalist (taking care of the groups health conditions)
-Psywar (to get rid of any dangers)
-Cryptic (because they are awesome and able to handle lots of situations ... also the obligatory skillmonkey)

[Stoneback]

A better question: could a party of 1st-levels inthe same situation with the same levels survive if they were limited to commoner, expert (no survival) warrior and aristocrat?

The idea of taking exotic levels is kind of meta. Who would train them?

[Killer Angel]

A better question: could a party of 1st-levels inthe same situation with the same levels survive if they were limited to commoner, expert (no survival) warrior and aristocrat?


Is the commoner chicken infested? :smalltongue:



Ordinary 1st level builds suited for high-magic urban environment. Gate malfunction is a surprise to them.

Then you should expect to have some arcane magic user. Things like prestidigitation, ghost sounds, detect poison, grease, floating disk (and similar), are all typical spells, useful in both the settings.

[Frozen_Feet]

The answer to this question is highly terrain dependent. "Without access to civilization" isn't even the main factor. The question is which kind of uncivilized area they are in.

Anyone can survive in a forest in summer when berries are growing. Almost no-one can survive in the same forest during harsh winter if they don't have proper tools and training.

Tropical Island is perhaps the best possible environment for dumbass survival. The key skills, since Survival is banned for some bizarre reason, are Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography), and the key tool will be whatever spell or ability that can be used to make fire.

With any sort of fire, even a 1st level party can distill clean drinking water from sea water - just use a big leaf to catch and condense the steam. As a bonus, they also get salt for preserving food. Fire Domain cleric and Wizard or Sorcerer would be able to cast Burning Hands for this purpose.

[Coidzor]

The real question is how well an all cleric party would be able to do without spells, since you cut them off from being able to receive spells and didn't specify what or how they could switch worship to instead in order to be able to cast.

What would that even mean? They can't cast until they retrain their Cleric level into Druid or Spirit Shaman or something? Are Favored Souls and Archivists also unable to use divine magic? Any other classes you're gutting?

Though, frankly, I don't see what possible reasoning you could have for the caveat, as useless and nonfunctional as it seems to be, since it's obvious that you don't want create food and water to be possible once they reach 5th level and you don't want them to have the orison of create water from 1st level on.

Anyway, I believe even Urban Druids can get animal companions. It shouldn't take them that long to get one with its skillpoints put into Survival if they're allowed to customize its skillpoint and feat allocations, and thus have it catch something for them if nothing else.

Depending upon the rate of random encounters they should be able to find something else to eat even without Survival ranks, so their main issue is being able to get water... But I'm pretty sure Urban Druids keep Create Water on their spell list, so that should be taken care of if they have one.

On the other hand, it's only a DC 10 Survival Check to get food and water enough for one person moving at half-speed overland. So even if they have to rely on it with a Wisdom modifier of 0, they've still got a 55% chance of success. And you didn't *ban* use of the skill, you just banned having ranks in it. (edit: Well, actually... it's a 45% chance of failing for the day(Result of 1 to 9), a 10% chance of getting enough for themselves(10-11), a 10% chance of getting enough for two people(12-13), and so on until getting enough for 6 people with a natural 20. If a party of 4, that's a 25% chance that one of them gets enough for the group with their roll, possibly with some to bank against the next day. So I think that's a 68% chance at least one of them gets enough for all of them, so the actual chance of keep them all fed is higher since there's partial successes too, but I don't remember the relevant math.)

As for clothing and shelter, that should be trivial for a high Int character due to being covered by craft skills or, in a pinch, a high Wis character could probably finagle something with profession: tailor or what have you.

The main question is processing materials, but since that's not covered by the rules it would be have to roleplayed out and possibly the closest craft or profession skill would take care of it.

[SinsI]

Just don't forget that things like material components are going to run out soon, with no market to re-supply on. Wizards are even worse off - nowhere to buy magic ink and paper for their spellbooks (and they are in danger of being destroyed by any heavy rain). With time, the other equipment is also going to receive damage.


The real question is how well an all cleric party would be able to do without spells, since you cut them off from being able to receive spells and didn't specify what or how they could switch worship to instead in order to be able to cast.

What would that even mean? They can't cast until they retrain their Cleric level into Druid or Spirit Shaman or something? Are Favored Souls and Archivists also unable to use divine magic? Any other classes you're gutting?
Their god is unavailable in this place. If they find some way to switch worship to a local god (so need some way to gain knowledge of what is available), or even get rid of the need to receive spells from a god in the first place, they will be able to cast again.

[Coidzor]

Their god is unavailable in this place. If they find some way to switch worship to a local god (so need some way to gain knowledge of what is available), or even get rid of the need to receive spells from a god in the first place, they will be able to cast again.

I suppose I just don't see why you bothered. By the time they'd be able to contact their god if you hadn't shut off access to them, day-to-day survival would be a solved problem. But since you're only taking away the spellcasting of clerics, other spellcasters' low level spells are still on the table, but the only really problematic low level Cleric Spell should still be available to Archivists and Urban Druids. And Favored Souls if they're kosher.

[SinsI]

I suppose I just don't see why you bothered. By the time they'd be able to contact their god
Same reason you don't give any modern Robinson Crusoe a satellite phone: if they can receive spells from a god, when the god can pinpoint their location and tell it to any potential rescuing party.

If they want to get out of there, they have to somehow find ways to survive and advance their abilities enough to create/cast the Gate spell themselves.

[Stoneback]

Does my character have to have clothes on? Or can he be a nudist?

[SinsI]

Clothes protect you from sun, insects, cold, scratches. They also protect your possessions from the elements. If you are immune to all of it, you can be nudist.


Though, frankly, I don't see what possible reasoning you could have for the caveat, as useless and nonfunctional as it seems to be, since it's obvious that you don't want create food and water to be possible once they reach 5th level and you don't want them to have the orison of create water from 1st level on.

I don't want them to "accidentally" have Bear Grylls amongst themselves.

[Coidzor]

Same reason you don't give any modern Robinson Crusoe a satellite phone: if they can receive spells from a god, when the god can pinpoint their location and tell it to any potential rescuing party.

If they want to get out of there, they have to somehow find ways to survive and advance their abilities enough to create/cast the Gate spell themselves.

That's the best fix to "Oh, someone from back home will find them," eh? Oy gevalt. :smallsigh:

[Kudaku]

Not strictly on-topic but I gotta say if this happened with no forewarning (and I can see why you wouldn't want to tip your players off) and I was playing a cleric, I'd be pissed.

I'd strongly advise that you ban the cleric class as well as other classes that need to pray to a deity for spells unless this is a very temporary situation.

Edit: I do find the fact that apparently all clerics in your campaign are essentially LoJacked by their deity fairly funny though :smallbiggrin:

[SinsI]

Not strictly on-topic but I gotta say if this happened with no forewarning (and I can see why you wouldn't want to tip your players off) and I was playing a cleric, I'd be pissed.

I'd strongly advise that you ban the cleric class as well as other classes that need to pray to a deity for spells unless this is a very temporary situation.

Edit: I do find the fact that apparently all clerics in your campaign are essentially LoJacked by their deity fairly funny though :smallbiggrin:

They can switch to worship an Ideal.

[Kudaku]

They can switch to worship an Ideal.

...That is very much not a change the typical cleric is going to make lightly. At the very least I'd give them some kind of warning that they'd lose connection with their deity for an extended amount of time.

[Worira]

I suppose I just don't see why you bothered. By the time they'd be able to contact their god if you hadn't shut off access to them, day-to-day survival would be a solved problem. But since you're only taking away the spellcasting of clerics, other spellcasters' low level spells are still on the table, but the only really problematic low level Cleric Spell should still be available to Archivists and Urban Druids. And Favored Souls if they're kosher.

I'd think Purify Food and Drink would generally be more effective, actually. Assuming they've got access to any source of water at all, whether it be sea water, gross poopy swamp water, or whatever, it gets them four times as much water per casting. Plus, they can use it to safely shove any rotting corpse or conceivably-edible plant they find in their faces without fear of horrible diseases and poisons.

[Mutazoia]

Same reason you don't give any modern Robinson Crusoe a satellite phone: if they can receive spells from a god, when the god can pinpoint their location and tell it to any potential rescuing party.

That is, of course, assuming that the deity in question cares enough to take the time to pay close attention to that particular cleric 24/7. How many cleric's does this deity have? Is the party's cleric the only one so the deity feels the need to have a pet locator chip implanted in his neck? Honestly if deities cared that much about their clerics then no cleric anywhere would ever be in any danger from anything at all.

Deities have a universe to run, they can't be bothered to personally send rescue parties for every 1st level cleric that goes missing.

Then you have the hassle of finding a new deity to worship....you have to go through the acolyte stage again...work your way up to the point where you get to cast spells.... You don't just get to say "Oh I worship YOU now...gimmie spells bee-otch!" Not to mention what happens if they do make their way home and the original deity want's to know why the cleric gave him the bird. And how the heck is an "Ideal" supposed to grant spells? :smallsigh: You can't pray to an abstract thought process and get a response....

That being said, yes...your average 1st level party could survive with out magic aid. People do it all the time IRL. They'll find food and water okay enough. If they're on a tropical island they can fish for food (tidal pools make this very easy) and, unless it's a very small island, fresh water will be pretty easy to locate (or collect during the rainy season).

Could they level up and research/cast gate? Nope. You've already stated that the mages will run out of components quickly....researching spells requires a crap ton of components to experiment with, lot's of ink and paper to write notes with...all things that you've now permanently denied to them. So if your caster's can't cast, they can't research/cast gate.

I doubt they'll level up much if they are on an island (unless it's the size of Australia) due to the lack of sufficient bags of XP (monsters) roaming around. Eventually they'll kill off anything worth XP and they'll plateau quickly.

[squiggit]

Same reason you don't give any modern Robinson Crusoe a satellite phone: if they can receive spells from a god, when the god can pinpoint their location and tell it to any potential rescuing party.

If they want to get out of there, they have to somehow find ways to survive and advance their abilities enough to create/cast the Gate spell themselves.

I'm not really sure a god would necessarily even notice a single level 1 cleric going missing. Much less expend effort hunting him down and directing rescue to him.

Direct divine intervention tends to be a high level thing.

[Mnemnosyne]

Could they level up and research/cast gate? Nope. You've already stated that the mages will run out of components quickly....researching spells requires a crap ton of components to experiment with, lot's of ink and paper to write notes with...all things that you've now permanently denied to them. So if your caster's can't cast, they can't research/cast gate.
As long as their spell component pouches don't get sundered, they should be fine on this front. Even at level 1 I usually take something like 3 spell component pouches on my casters, just to be safe.

As far as learning a new spell, keep in mind most (all?) casters get some spells automatically on level-up, so they don't need to research. They would lack the facilities needed to construct magical items of their own, so an artificer would be screwed, and melee classes would have their usual difficulties only even more since they can't get customized loot to fill the strengths they need. Casters, however, would have little trouble generally speaking.

Worst-case scenario, if they're concerned about their pouches being sundered, most of the group goes into a psionic class at level 2. Psionics require no material components, so problem solved.

The only caveat is whether there's sufficient places to earn xp on the island. The OP gave me the impression that there would be, so it would simply be a matter of time and standard adventuring dangers, with the caveat that they're not as well equipped as a party with access to markets and such would be.

[SinsI]

That is, of course, assuming that the deity in question cares enough to take the time to pay close attention to that particular cleric 24/7. How many cleric's does this deity have? Is the party's cleric the only one so the deity feels the need to have a pet locator chip implanted in his neck? Honestly if deities cared that much about their clerics then no cleric anywhere would ever be in any danger from anything at all.
Of course the Deity in question won't bother with organizing an effort to rescue a lvl 1 cleric. But their friends/relatives/Gate operators, on the other hand, will certainly cast some Divinations to try to find them (it is a high-magic world).


As far as learning a new spell, keep in mind most (all?) casters get some spells automatically on level-up, so they don't need to research. They would lack the facilities needed to construct magical items of their own, so an artificer would be screwed, and melee classes would have their usual difficulties only even more since they can't get customized loot to fill the strengths they need. Casters, however, would have little trouble generally speaking.
They can't record their new spells in their spellbooks. They will either have to find some way to create the necessary magic ink/paper, or some way to use other media to record those spells



The only caveat is whether there's sufficient places to earn xp on the island. The OP gave me the impression that there would be, so it would simply be a matter of time and standard adventuring dangers, with the caveat that they're not as well equipped as a party with access to markets and such would be.
I think the challenges they face will mostly be non-combat in nature, but ones that still grant XP. I.e. if your sorcerer completes the necessary research for the new spells he should be granted at level up - he gets the XP and the level up as a bonus.

[Coidzor]

Of course the Deity in question won't bother with organizing an effort to rescue a lvl 1 cleric. But their friends/relatives/Gate operators, on the other hand, will certainly cast some Divinations to try to find them (it is a high-magic world).

So... How is a cleric any different from everyone else such that you have to make them unable to cast spells for whatever unreasonable amount of time it takes to switch over to being a cleric of an ideal?

[SinsI]

So... How is a cleric any different from everyone else such that you have to make them unable to cast spells for whatever unreasonable amount of time it takes to switch over to being a cleric of an ideal?
Clerics get all level-appropriate spells from their god for free as a gift with the level up. Pretty much everyone else needs to research their spells the hard way.

[Coidzor]

Clerics get all level-appropriate spells from their god for free as a gift with the level up. Pretty much everyone else needs to research their spells the hard way.

...Where on earth did you get the idea that every class is like Wizard in that regard? Especially Druids of all things. :smallconfused:

[SinsI]

...Where on earth did you get the idea that every class is like Wizard in that regard? Especially Druids of all things. :smallconfused:
Druid's power come from their knowledge of nature, and from nature spirits. This means that to get new spells they have to widen that knowledge - and that is their research.

[Mnemnosyne]

They can't record their new spells in their spellbooks. They will either have to find some way to create the necessary magic ink/paper, or some way to use other media to record those spells
This is only required when copying spells from someone else's spellbook, or scrolls. The ones obtained at level-up have no cost and require no materials, they are simply obtained as part of the level-up process.

Most caster classes have no need for a spellbook at all; the vast majority of divine casters simply know all their spells, and most arcane classes that are not based on Wizard don't use spellbooks either. I believe out of base classes, the only ones that require spellbooks are Wizard, Wu Jen, and Archivist. The Chameleon prestige class also requires a spellbook for its arcane focus, but not for its divine focus; it's specifically called out as being just like a cleric, which means instant knowledge of all spells. There might be a couple other spell-granting prestige classes that also require spellbooks that aren't occurring to me off-hand, but simply put, this isn't a problem. Just don't be one of the very tiny number of classes that requires a spellbook.

Druids don't need to widen their knowledge at all; all they need is to gain enough xp to level up and they instantly receive their next level of spells. If the DM is granting xp for 'widening their knowledge' then yes, that leads to leveling up, but it's not required unless that's the only available means for gaining xp. The same applies to all other casters that gain spells on level-up: if they can gain xp and level up, they gain their spells, regardless of how they leveled up or what they did.

[PersonMan]

Druid's power come from their knowledge of nature, and from nature spirits. This means that to get new spells they have to widen that knowledge - and that is their research.

Fascinating houserule you have there.


A druid prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place (but see Spontaneous Casting, below). A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

[Magikeeper]

As noted, a psionic party is pretty well-off in this situation. Urban druids are not bad off. Clerics that were already worshiping an ideal from the get-go are apparently fine.

Race-wise, elans and warforged sound like good options.

Depending on what exactly magic wizard ink is (Books don't go into how it is made, etc), wizards are useless past first level. Even eidetic wizards use incense or something like that. [edit- this is assuming the OP is ruling that a wizard's 'free' spells still use the ink, just that a normal wizard is just assumed to have acquired some during the leveling process which these wizards cannot.]

But a different question: What does 'research' entail? For the player, I mean, not the character. How exactly do you imagine them RPing this? D&D magic is rather vague on the particulars, so if researching is going to be some big thing in this game you really should write some more rules for it. Just spending time+money doesn't cut it when this is apparently one of the primary ways to level. A game where doing a boring ill-described thing is the main way to level, and the goal is to acquire 17 of those levels, is probably going to be a boring ill-described game. The research process itself needs to be fun.

[hamishspence]

Same reason you don't give any modern Robinson Crusoe a satellite phone: if they can receive spells from a god, when the god can pinpoint their location and tell it to any potential rescuing party.

A god can, if they choose, sense everything within a mile of "one of their worshippers" - or even a location where someone has spoken that deity's name - though in that particular case it only lasts 1 hour:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#remoteSensing


Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.

And if the deity's a greater deity - it can sense anything related to their portfolio, no matter how few people are involved - weeks in advance - and then try using Remote Sensing to look more closely:


Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

[MadGreenSon]

Simple fix for the Cleric issue: Use Eberron gods or a similar setup, basically those gods do exactly nothing to help, no intervention, no divine GPS, etc.
The only gods that butt in so much as to even make this a slightly likely issue anyway are the Forgotten Realms gods.
The other settings deities generally do their god-stuff and let their worshipers sweat out minor details like a few lost people.
Divine intervention is supposed to be a big deal, high-level thing. Your diety should not be someone you hang out with.

Also, am I the only one who sees Sigil as the city in question and a few natives of it getting lost through one of the City of Doors random portals?

[Trilby]

So this is a pretty big surprise you're springing on your players. Therefor, I'd be very careful wielding the nope-hammer, and try to be as permissive as possible.

For instance, the wizard and his inks (if those are even necessary for level-up spells), while he'd normally keep them at home, perhaps they were in the middle of moving (hence the gate spell), and he happens to have them on him, enough so that, when used sparingly, they'll last him quite a while. Alternatively, you could give the inks a craft alchemy DC. Same with paper. Or look in to the alternative spellbook options in Complete Mage.

If you're worried about gods locating you would-be Robinsons, simply have all clerics in your setting worship ideals.

It sounds like a fun campaign idea, but take it from someone who is in a campaign without civilisation (zombie apocalypse, everyone but us is a hostile undead, so no going into towns/cities), you take away quite a bit of player agency, so you need to help them out on occasion, and not (just) look for ways to say no.

If you think playing as a wizard or a cleric is unfeasible in this campaign, tell them so beforehand.

[SinsI]

Fascinating houserule you have there.

Not really a houserule, it's the fluff from PHB. Basically, druids are clerics not of a single deity that grants them their spells, but of nature spirits pantheon. Just like a normal god requires you to at least know his name, druids have to know the spirits that grant them their spells. Thus if they move to a different area that houses different spirits they have to re-acquaintance with them.


This is only required when copying spells from someone else's spellbook, or scrolls. The ones obtained at level-up have no cost and require no materials, they are simply obtained as part of the level-up process.

They still require access to the magical ink and paper, even if their cost is not explicitly taken from the character's WBL. Your spellbook is not going to just suddenly have some extra pages with some extra entries in it. Otherwise leveling up would be a supernatural ability.

[Kudaku]

So... Let me make sure I understand you correctly.


The party will, with no forewarning for players or characters, be stranded in a tropical terrain, possibly an island, permanently. The only way back to their own world is through the casting of a Gate spell, so the campaign is assumed to go from level 1 to ~level 17.
Wizards can't add spells to their spell book when they level up without access to magical ink. They won't have access to other spellcasters, so scrolls are assumed to be rare or non-existent.
Druids (and presumably rangers?) are houseruled so that they can't learn new spells without communing with nature spirits.
Clerics are houseruled so that they can't cast spells at all unless they stop worshiping their chosen deity and convert to worshiping an ideal or, in theory, a local deity if one should exist.


Will there be any intelligent humanoids in the area apart from the party? If so, will they be friendly or hostile? If they're hostile, are they meant to be the primary antagonist or can the party attempt to broker an agreement with them?

[ZeroNumerous]

How can they solve basic problems such as food, clothing and shelter?

4 warforged. Done.

Everything else are bog standard D&D combat encounters until level 17.

[RegalKain]

They still require access to the magical ink and paper, even if their cost is not explicitly taken from the character's WBL. Your spellbook is not going to just suddenly have some extra pages with some extra entries in it. Otherwise leveling up would be a supernatural ability.

This statement makes very little sense to me.

That said, the whole premise is a bad idea. As someone else already pointed out, a party of 4 warforged. Look they have no issues with anything, and it's a standard dungeon crawl as normal. Banning Warforged? Here's an idea, give us an extensive list of everything you are banning, houseruling (Read: Houserule is anything that is not RAW, that you are choosing fluff over crunch.) etc, this way we can better answer your question and scenario. If you want to level "fluff" at someone, players can't obtain new levels in any class but the one they started, after all there is training time (Years of it in the case of casters) that the players may/may not have. Not to mention in the case of most classes, someone has to be around to train them to do this. Give us a world design here please, the place they are at, the locals (If any) etc, what is and is not available. This is all information you should already have on hand if you're going to throw an actual party into this situation.

[HammeredWharf]

Not really a houserule, it's the fluff from PHB. Basically, druids are clerics not of a single deity that grants them their spells, but of nature spirits pantheon. Just like a normal god requires you to at least know his name, druids have to know the spirits that grant them their spells. Thus if they move to a different area that houses different spirits they have to re-acquaintance with them.

No, that's a houserule. PHB says a druid "gains her magical
power either from the force of nature itself or from a nature deity." In addition to that, a druid "may prepare and cast any spell
on the druid spell list (page 189), provided that she can cast spells of
that level". It's made very clear the druid doesn't have to research anything and the new tropical environment is most likely easier for her to adapt to than a city.

[AnonymousPepper]

With a party of five, for wilderness dwelling, with most attention to crunch and some to fluff, I'd bring (leaving out the druid - it's too obvious, tbqh):


Artificer. Make your own goods! Who needs civilization? Plus, makes for a good frontline combatant when kitted properly as a meleeficer.
Sorcerer. Prestidigitation, for all your hygiene needs, and Lesser Orbs of Electricity to kill AND cook your meat all in one go!
Rogue. PrCs into Trapsmith; no more worrying about hostile animal attack in the middle of the night!
Bard. Because being out there in the wilderness with no source of entertainment would get boring after a while... and once he gets annoying, set him to work mining raw materials for the Artificer to work with! Also a decent source of heals, along with the Artificer's potions.
Factotum. The usual party jack of all trades. In this case he would be some city slicker with the book smarts about the wilderness to keep the party from accidentally nomming those delicious-looking berries that actually contain aboleth mucus.

[Invader]

This seems pretty trivial because even a 1st level cleric had all the tools they'd need to survive.

Why does the solution have to be gate though? By the time they're able to cast 9ths they have literally dozens of ways of getting off the island, contacting help, saying screw it and adopting and changing the island to become their new fortress of solitude, etc.

To be honest this sounds like a debate you were having with someone and now you're trying to stack the deck so your argument wins.

[SinsI]

Why does the solution have to be gate though? By the time they're able to cast 9ths they have literally dozens of ways of getting off the island, contacting help, saying screw it and adopting and changing the island to become their new fortress of solitude, etc.
Of course it is not the only solution. Gate, gods, etc - all serve to make them stay without access to civilization for a very long while.
The question is - can they survive in such circumstances, and maybe even thrive - i.e. can they found a new colony and advance to the level of the society they enjoyed before all on their own, without support from thousands of unnamed farmers and experts that cook their food, sew their clothes, mine the iron for their armor and diamonds for their spells, forge their swords and create their magic items?

[Kudaku]

With the rules as written? Easily.

With your houserules in place? I'm honestly not sure since I don't know the full extent of them.

[Invader]

Any way back will require casting (and researching) Gate.



Then I'm confused because you said this :smallconfused:

[SinsI]

With your houserules in place? I'm honestly not sure since I don't know the full extent of them.
There are only two houserules:
1) absolutely no access to civilization (this includes their civilization's gods); if they want it - they will have to re-create it from scratch
2) no forewarning, advance preparation or convenient survival specialists among them; they should initially be geared towards dungeon crawling, not tailor-made for this specific task.

In everything else - a standard uninhabited Tropical D&D setting.

[Mutazoia]

Of course it is not the only solution. Gate, gods, etc - all serve to make them stay without access to civilization for a very long while.
The question is - can they survive in such circumstances, and maybe even thrive - i.e. can they found a new colony and advance to the level of the society they enjoyed before all on their own, without support from thousands of unnamed farmers and experts that cook their food, sew their clothes, mine the iron for their armor and diamonds for their spells, forge their swords and create their magic items?

That's a different kind of question than originally put forth.

I'm going to assume you've read Swiss Family Robinson or Robinson Crusoe (man...it doesn't pay to be named Robinson) or The Mysterious Island.

The characters in those books survived and thrived due to a number of factors.


Luck. In all 3 books, everything they needed to survive was either salvaged from a shipwreck or was crafted by a master engineer (in the case of the Mysterious Island) from ridiculously abundant natural resources.
Skill. In all 3 books, the characters were from a pre-industrial revolution era, and as such were knowledgeable about building shelter's by hand, gathering food, farming, hunting, etc. all with out anything more advanced than a musket (or sling). No power tools, no magic, just elbow grease.
Providence. In all 3 books, the characters HAD to survive and thrive or it wouldn't make a good story.

If you expect your players to have the same fortune, your going to have to pop them on to that island with some basic resources, or have said resources be in suspiciously abundant supply in raw form. Plus...unless you are planning to put a tribe of lonely native girls on the island, forming a new civilization is going to be a little tough with out any breeding stock...unless half your party is female...or some one brought a belt of masculinity/femininity :smalleek:



There are only two houserules:
1) absolutely no access to civilization (this includes their civilization's gods); if they want it - they will have to re-create it from scratch
2) no forewarning, advance preparation or convenient survival specialists among them; they should initially be geared towards dungeon crawling, not tailor-made for this specific task.

In everything else - a standard uninhabited Tropical D&D setting.

Uninhabited...well there goes your new civilization, unless some one wants to switch genders and be everybody's baby mama.

So no convenient survival specialists means no rangers...your no civilized God's means clerics are screwed (are you even telling them they can "worship and Ideal" rather than an actual God before hand?)....Paladins even more so. Your stated gimp on other casters screw's them even harder than the Clerics.

I foresee an explorer trying to prove the world is round, decades later, stopping on a lone island to replenish his water supply. His crew discovers 1 extremely old, insane fighter in a tattered loin cloth, wielding a crude club that he uses to club fish in a tidal pool.

[Talionis]

I like the idea.

First off, I wouldn't let the party all be Warforged or Élan. One or two could be, but the players shouldn't be able to game the situation. Ie don't let the players try to pick the best classes to be Gated to Gilligans Island.

At the same time you have to find some sort of middle ground to allow your casters to challenge them to think outside the box, but still allow them to cast most of the time. Maybe they need to spend time making ink from berries. Maybe the ink runs in a rain storm, but it works most of the time. It's okay to challenge characters with the situation, but much like Captain Kirk versus the Gorn you want to give them an environment that has enough raw materials to play the characters in a way that is still fun. Maybe allow a far more limited spell list for the cleric because there God is so far away and they can only pull from a more generic source that is limited. Thus the Cleric has some spells and can cast, but isn't the utility knife it could be with tons of books.

As for being on a small island and running out of Xp granting adventures, you are the DM make sure that doesn't happen. Gilligans island seemed to have a unending stream of mishaps and adventures. If the island becomes too small have villagers come in a boat and help them to have access to bigger lands, which don't need to be any more civilized. Boating adventures and searching for new lands can be a real challenge and set of adventures by itself. Stormwrach is a good book for that.

I would just caution you that limiting the classes is fine, but you need to come to an understanding with your players so that they completely understand the limits you are putting on them and they can try to find ways to get ariund it. If you don't want to allow some ways around it that's okay, but you need to give them ways to have fun and interact with their class. It may take a continuing conversation.

[NotScaryBats]

When I was younger, I would think up cool ideas like 'what if I turned my PCs into vampires!' and then start a campaign without telling them the premise. 'It'll be a surprise,' I'd say to myself.

Universally, my players hated me changing their characters within the first 1-3 stories on such fundamental levels -- 'if you wanted us to become fishpeople living under the water, why didn't you say so when I was making my character?'

It would be my suggestion to tell your players your plans beforehand, ask them to not metagame and take no Survival, and make general high magic adventurers.

That way, no one is surprised or hurt (surprise is generally not that precious of a feeling, in my opinion) and everyone is on the same page.

[Kudaku]

There are only two houserules:
1) absolutely no access to civilization (this includes their civilization's gods); if they want it - they will have to re-create it from scratch
2) no forewarning, advance preparation or convenient survival specialists among them; they should initially be geared towards dungeon crawling, not tailor-made for this specific task.

In everything else - a standard uninhabited Tropical D&D setting.

With respect, that is not what you've been stating up until now.
A druid who has to contact local nature spirits to learn spells is a colossal house rule. So are the limitations you've put in place on wizards learning spells.

All that said, is this meant to be a thought exercise or an actual campaign?

[SinsI]

If you expect your players to have the same fortune, your going to have to pop them on to that island with some basic resources, or have said resources be in suspiciously abundant supply in raw form. Plus...unless you are planning to put a tribe of lonely native girls on the island, forming a new civilization is going to be a little tough with out any breeding stock...unless half your party is female...or some one brought a belt of masculinity/femininity :smalleek:

They are Heroes, way above ordinary folks from those books.
They also have Magic, and complete unrestricted use of any D&D source material - provided they manage to create their own substitution for the missing components.


Uninhabited...well there goes your new civilization, unless some one wants to switch genders and be everybody's baby mama.

Alter Self, Polymorph line of spells, Wild Shape, Awaken, Reincarnate, Create Undead, Craft Homunculus - there are plenty of ways to create tons of minions to fulfill needed tasks.



With respect, that is not what you've been stating up until now.
A druid who has to contact local nature spirits to learn spells is a colossal house rule. So are the limitations you've put in place on wizards learning spells.

I distantly remember reading that nature spirits were the source of druid's power in the book that described Urban druid variant (so urban druids get power from the City spirit).
Lack of access to civilization means that anything that implies relying on said civilization is unavailable. Normal wizard spellbook does that extensively (hell, if you ask me I'd demand that any free wizard spell still requires the empty pages in his spellbook and expenditure of the appropriate amount of magic ink from his wealth. All he saves is paying for the research/scroll to copy from/access to another wizard's spellbook). If the wizard wants, he can try to create his spellbook on improvised media (i.e. cave walls), or get rid of the need for a spellbook altogether.


All that said, is this meant to be a thought exercise or an actual campaign?
It's not at a detailed enough level to be used in a real game yet, so for now it is a thought exercise.

[Kudaku]

I distantly remember reading that nature spirits were the source of druid's power in the book that described Urban druid variant (so urban druids get power from the City spirit).

So... How would an urban druid gain spells if he requires learning spells from urban spirits? I'm guessing there is a distinct lack of urban spirits on the deserted tropical island.

[Mutazoia]

They are Heroes, way above ordinary folks from those books.
They also have Magic, and complete unrestricted use of any D&D source material - provided they manage to create their own substitution for the missing components.

Even if you put a capitol H on it the word hero does not mean that they can pull resources out of their fleshy derriere's.

You've all but cut them off from the magic you claim they have: You're cutting the cleric's off from their deities and expect them to gain spells from a thought process, you want your druids to stalk nymphs for spells, you've left your mages with out spell components or any way to research new spells, and have gone so fart as to state that their spell books will rot and fall apart.

Giving them access, ipso facto, to any source material, and thinking that they can magically create missing materials after you've seriously gimped their magic to a point of near uselessness....

http://global3.memecdn.com/calvin-facepalm_o_1192897.jpg



Alter Self, Polymorph line of spells, Wild Shape, Awaken, Reincarnate, Create Undead, Craft Homunculus - there are plenty of ways to create tons of minions to fulfill needed tasks.

There's a HUGE difference between creating a civilization/society and creating minions to do manual labor. Especially when you've all but guaranteed that they are not going to be able to cast most of the spells you just listed.




I distantly remember reading that nature spirits were the source of druid's power in the book that described Urban druid variant (so urban druids get power from the City spirit).

...Urban druids still get their power from nature....there is no "pass building" spell variant for urban druids...


Lack of access to civilization means that anything that implies relying on said civilization is unavailable. Normal wizard spellbook does that extensively (hell, if you ask me I'd demand that any free wizard spell still requires the empty pages in his spellbook and expenditure of the appropriate amount of magic ink from his wealth. All he saves is paying for the research/scroll to copy from/access to another wizard's spellbook). If the wizard wants, he can try to create his spellbook on improvised media (i.e. cave walls), or get rid of the need for a spellbook altogether.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/006/512/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

"We would be making better time exploring this island if Presto the Great wasn't lugging that damned cave in his back pack."

I think that's going to be an encumbrance penalty to movement...


It's not at a detailed enough level to be used in a real game yet, so for now it is a thought exercise.

Your thought needs a LOT more exercise.

[Mnemnosyne]

Whether you're willing to admit it or not, you're relying on a lot of houserules. Which is fine, if you state that up front and list them.

If you stop claiming you're not houseruling things, and instead accept that you are, you might get far more productive answers to your question. Indeed, part of your question should, perhaps, be: "what houserules do I need to make this scenario challenging but doable, as well as fun?" I'm sure many here would be glad to help hammer out a list of houserules to enable this scenario.

Your insistence that your only houserules are the two you listed a few posts up, while you keep saying things that do not work that way according to the rules because you think they work differently, or because you're focusing on some bit of fluff text that might imply differently if you squint and read it just right, is leading people (or at least me, since I hesitate to speak too much to others' motivations) to want to tell you 'no, you're wrong' because the way you're putting it, you are wrong.

[HaikenEdge]

So, am I only getting the sense that the only "casters" such a campaign could actually support would basically be psionists, meldshapers, and warlocks?

[ZeroNumerous]

So, am I only getting the sense that the only "casters" such a campaign could actually support would basically be psionists, meldshapers, and warlocks?

Don't forget Sorcerers, who are innately magical and cannot be screwed over by even the strictest interpretation of their fluff.

Admittedly, a Warforged/Elan Sorcerer isn't gonna be happy, but it could be worse.

If you're including meldshapers however, then Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage all get their powers inherently. Though most of them, like meldshapers, will lack any real way to contribute outside of being a Warforged/Elan who blows up combat encounters.

[HaikenEdge]

Don't forget Sorcerers, who are innately magical and cannot be screwed over by even the strictest interpretation of their fluff.

Admittedly, a Warforged/Elan Sorcerer isn't gonna be happy, but it could be worse.

If you're including meldshapers however, then Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage all get their powers inherently. Though most of them, like meldshapers, will lack any real way to contribute outside of being a Warforged/Elan who blows up combat encounters.

I avoided the casters because they require material components, and if the DM is so strict on spellbooks and learning new spells, I'm fully expecting the DM to be just has strict on the acquisition of material components, while meldshapers, psionists and warlocks can basically do their thing with the power of their minds.

I also ruled out truenamers because they wouldn't have any method of researching truenames, and binders because, if clerics can't contact their deities, then the likelihood of being able to contact vestiges would likely be similarly low.

[Karnith]

I avoided the casters because they require material components, and if the DM is so strict on spellbooks and learning new spells, I'm fully expecting the DM to be just has strict on the acquisition of material components, while meldshapers, psionists and warlocks can basically do their thing with the power of their minds.
Was Eschew Materials banned? I can't find any mention of it in the thread, but a Sorcerer with that feat ought to be fine. Alternately, a Sorcerer could just learn spells without material components, though that does make a lot of good spells off-limits.

Also, in addition to the Warforged/Elan ideas, any sort of (non-Native) Outsider should do well surviving in the wilderness, as they don't need to eat or sleep. Perhaps a Neraph (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)?

[ZeroNumerous]

I avoided the casters because they require material components, and if the DM is so strict on spellbooks and learning new spells, I'm fully expecting the DM to be just has strict on the acquisition of material components, while meldshapers, psionists and warlocks can basically do their thing with the power of their minds.

Eschew Materials is available to everyone at first level. Admittedly, there are expensive spells that require actual components, but it's not an issue to avoid spells that require you to burn money. I propose that at least Sorcerers be considered on that list so long as they're able to take Eschew Materials.


I also ruled out truenamers because they wouldn't have any method of researching truenames, ...

I thought we were excluding them because they'd be useless as anything but bait...

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[HaikenEdge]

I suppose, yeah; I just figured, at first level, most characters and builds would probably have better things to take than eschew materials, particularly in a setting where they're trying to survive without the help of what they're accustomed to.

So...

Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Warmages, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Psionics, Meldshapers and Warlocks. This is under the assumption that Favored Souls don't have to pray to their deity for their spell and just have them the way sorcerers do, and that Beguilers and Dread Necros have the same kind of "We will drill every spell you will ever need to know into your thick skulls" type of training for their spell knowledge.

[otakumick]

Fluffwise, Beguilers and Dread Necros are specialized sorcerers...(to way oversimplify)... their knowledge basically comes from within like with a sorcerer... they get more spells known, in exchange for the flexibility of the wizard/sorcerer spell list to choose from

[Grollub]

Just go Dread Necromancer... then...

step 1 ) chop off every monkey's hand on the island that you are eating to stay alive..so you get 2 per monkey (or animal with hands )

step 2 ) animate them all as crawling claws

step 3 ) use the claws to take over a new "handy" society :smallcool:

[Gavinfoxx]

I did an old thread on how something KINDA similar to this might work... but it was based on the players KNOWING what they were getting into...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163569

[Coidzor]

Not really a houserule, it's the fluff from PHB. Basically, druids are clerics not of a single deity that grants them their spells, but of nature spirits pantheon. Just like a normal god requires you to at least know his name, druids have to know the spirits that grant them their spells. Thus if they move to a different area that houses different spirits they have to re-acquaintance with them.

Are you working off of a non-English version of the PHB? :smallconfused:

Mine just says they revere Nature as a force and/or entity unto itself and derive power from that or from a Nature Deity(mostly to reflect FR and settings like it, IIRC), not kowtowing to various nature spirits or fey, and said "research" is an automatic part of the level-up process.

So unless you're requiring some kind of sidequest for all of the different character types in order for them to actually complete the level-up they've earned by acquiring XP, this houserule is kinda nonsensical and seems deliberately engineered to be unfair to specific classes, so you should at least be able to give your players forewarning of such a set-up.


They still require access to the magical ink and paper, even if their cost is not explicitly taken from the character's WBL.

Hence why it was pointed out that if you're doing this you really, really should allow for them to create these things rather than just saying "nope, they don't exist here and you have no way to make them because there's no rules for it." :smalltongue:


There are only two houserules:
1) absolutely no access to civilization (this includes their civilization's gods); if they want it - they will have to re-create it from scratch
2) no forewarning, advance preparation or convenient survival specialists among them; they should initially be geared towards dungeon crawling, not tailor-made for this specific task.

You've mentioned or touched upon several more, actually.

3) Spellbooks rot preternaturally quickly even when not exposed to the elements and when treated to resist such things.

4) Druids have to chase down nature spirits in order to regain their casting and in order to level up, apparently.

5) Clerics have gods who are OCD and obsessed with tracking them 24/7, so they have to be completely cut off from their deity and have to realize this and decide to either hunt down a new god or convert to an ideal, taking who knows how much time and how many sessions.

6) Wizards aren't able to scribe even the spells they automatically get for leveling up into their spellbooks and aren't allowed to make their own materials unless they take up cave painting, apparently.


It would be my suggestion to tell your players your plans beforehand, ask them to not metagame and take no Survival, and make general high magic adventurers.

They'd pretty much would just have to tell them not to take ranks in survival along with banning non-Urban Rangers and Druids unless they wanted to stop everything while a replacement character is made.

[Mellack]

Since they come from a high magic home, wouldn't somebody just cast Discern Location, then a Teleport w/o error to go get them? I mean, this is a place that has people using Gate freely for 1st level residents.

On another note, I have to agree that the OP is using waaaay more houserules than they claim.

[Gavinfoxx]

If these 1st level characters come from a high level high magic home, they should have wayyyy more magic items and transhuman augmentations and such, just as normal parts of living out their day to day lives, if this is a place that casts gate for 1st level characters.

See:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

and

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9NJIs751Af3i0IEIJwCkIp9H9YFiZYZ7u-wmYVaheI/edit

[Mellack]

Good point Gavinfoxx. In such a society, those residents would have a great supply of magic on/with them. Permanent unseen servants or constructs to do their labor. Bags of holding or haversacks. Endure elements items, after all, who wants to be cold or sweaty. Flying carpets. Ioun stones. Any number of items to make their lives more comfortable and therefore make survival easy.

[Gavinfoxx]

So we need to perhaps come up with some more limitations for the initial scenario, then?

Though if they are normal level 1 people, they shouldn't have anything beyond wish economy (IE, under 15k per magic item) stuff that makes their normal lives (and jobs and day to day life?) easier, and the 'standard set' of augmentations?

[Vogonjeltz]

Inspired by "optimized child-rearing in magical world".

Let's say a 1st level party that belonged to a magic-rich urban environment, while routinely commuting via a Gate due to some error was transported into an Uninhabited Tropical Terrain (possibly - island) setting.
The Clerics (if any) lost access to their Gods, so the place is extremely remote, and no method of communication is possible.
Any way back will require casting (and researching) Gate.

Can a party of 1st level D&D urban dwellers survive without access to civilization? What builds can be optimal for long-term prosperity? How can they solve basic problems such as food, clothing and shelter?

Note that only Urban variants of classes like Ranger or Druid are available, no one should have any ranks in Survival skill (since it abstracts away too many things). Any Cleric will have to switch worship to be able to cast again.

Everyone could take 10 in a survival check to feed themselves, and anyone with an 18 Wisdom (read: Monks and Clerics) would be able to take 10 and forage for both themselves and 2 others, compensating for anyone with a negative Wisdom Modifier)

So, pretty well unless there are serious environmental/monster threats.

[Jack_Simth]

Suppose, for a moment, that for some reason everyone in the party has a Wisdom score of 10. Let us further suppose that you can't take 10 on Survival. Let us finally suppose that the Survival skill doesn't let you 'bank' extra successes for the next day.

We have four people in the party, each of which rolls independently.

There is a 55% chance that a given character will make the default DC 10 or better. However...
1) A roll of 16 or better covers the entire party (roller+3 others). 25% chance per person rolling.
2) A roll of 14 or 15 takes care of three people (roller+2). 10% chance.
3) A roll of 12 or 13 takes care of two people (roller+1). 10% chance.
4) A roll of 10 or 11 takes care of 1 person (roller). 10% chance.
5) A roll of 9 or less takes care of 0 people. 45% chance.

So we've got four 25% chances of one person in the party covering everyone for the day (works out to about a 68% probability that one person covers the entire party in any given day).

The probability that everyone goes hungry (everyone rolls 9 or less) is only about 4%.

Those are the easy cases to work out. However, on the default DC, it is exceptionally unlikely that they'll starve.

[Mellack]

Add in that the characters do not even start making constitution checks for over 1 day (water) and 3 days (food), and the chance of dying closes to near 0%.

[Jack_Simth]

Add in that the characters do not even start making constitution checks for over 1 day (water) and 3 days (food), and the chance of dying closes to near 0%.
Not that they'd die anyway, technically. Well, not until a rat came along and ate them. Starvation and Thirst both deal nonlethal damage only.

But yes, a group of four has MUCH better odds than someone alone with that math.

[zlefin]

Just survive until the rescue; a society powerful enough to have free stuff like that can trivially find and recover them; unless the area they're in is completely dead magic or something, in which case gate couldn't have tossed them there.

All the extra restrictions sound excessive, some times you just can't prevent something.

[Jack_Simth]

Just survive until the rescue; a society powerful enough to have free stuff like that can trivially find and recover them; unless the area they're in is completely dead magic or something, in which case gate couldn't have tossed them there.

All the extra restrictions sound excessive, some times you just can't prevent something.
Eh, not necessarily. This isn't necessarily a wish-economy. And, of course, it's also possible for someone to go missing and not have anyone notice for a very long time (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/michigan-mummified-body-found/).

[Mellack]

It is possible, albeit unusual for one person to go missing and not have anyone notice. To have 4 or 5 people go missing, at the same time, and nobody cares? I think that would be very unlikely. Unless you whole party is made up of orphan loaners with penalties to their charisma scores.:smile:

As I said earlier, a Discern Location spell would find them, and is a level lower than the Gate that is "routinely" used. No matter what, I don't imagine the scenario going the way the OP seems to suggest.

[OverdrivePrime]

Silly house-rules debate aside, I think it's a fun exercise, and would be a fun game to play in. A lot of SinsI's restrictions don't make a lot of sense, but let's roll with it.

A wizard, is highly likely to have the alchemy feat. Combine that with anyone with the craft (alcohol) or profession (vintner), and you have everything you need to create ink for spellbooks and scrolls. For the first two or three times, it would be pretty fun to roleplay your characters discovering, then gathering and materials and crafting the into specialized inks. Having to roleplay that out every time would get pretty tedious. I actually like the idea - a creative wizard with ranks in knowledge (nature) might know that certain reef-dwelling fish or the shells of shellfish contain natural dyes (iodine) and salts that make them great for making magical inks when combined with other readily-available materials like ground silver, pulverized silicate, kronda berry skins, etc.

Remember, the inks for making spellbooks aren't magical in and of themselves. They just have properties that lend themselves well to scribing magical formulae. Boiled down to their core, making them is a fairly simple craft (alchemy) check.

So, a wizard's good. What else? A sorcerer with eschew materials is a no brainer, but a bard would be a lot more useful, due to their diverse skills and ability to raise everyone's competence.

Since clerics, druids, rangers and barbarians are out, and monks and fighters are ineffective, how about a Warblade? A warblade usually dumps wisdom (or at least mine do), but more than make up for it in first-level combat ability and all-out versatility. Need someone strong? Warblade? Need someone sexy? Warblade. Need those wild boars killed and grilled? Warblade.

And, what does that leave us with that's setting appropriate? A rogue? A paladin? Meh. Either might be useful.

Personally, since we're looking at a tropical island survivor episode, I'd go for a cast of hotties, with an emphasis on Charisma: Sorcerer, Bard, Warblade and Paladin. If you want a nerd, get a cute wizard.

[Gavinfoxx]

A wizard, is highly likely to have the alchemy feat. Combine that with anyone with the craft (alcohol) or profession (vintner), and you have everything you need to create ink for spellbooks and scrolls.

You dont need a feat for alchemy? Just to be a spellcaster and have high enough int, tools, and enough ranks?

[OverdrivePrime]

You dont need a feat for alchemy? Just to be a spellcaster and have high enough int, tools, and enough ranks?

Haha, yes. Total brainfart on my part. Shouldn't even need caster levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

Shouldn't even need caster levels.

It does require you to be a caster though, for some reason.

[OverdrivePrime]

It does require you to be a caster though, for some reason.

Yep. And that's an actual example of something many people houserule away.

[Vogonjeltz]

Not that they'd die anyway, technically. Well, not until a rat came along and ate them. Starvation and Thirst both deal nonlethal damage only.

But yes, a group of four has MUCH better odds than someone alone with that math.

Nonlethal damage that can not be healed except by drinking or eating. If they repeatedly fail survival checks they will starve to death.

[Karnith]

Nonlethal damage that can not be healed except by drinking or eating. If they repeatedly fail survival checks they will starve to death.
The point is that in the Core rules nonlethal damage on its own cannot kill a character. It can stagger her or knock her unconscious, but a character will never die from nonlethal damage. Since starvation and thirst only cause nonlethal damage, there is no point at which they can actually kill you.

(I think that Sandstorm has expanded rules on hunger and thirst that are less silly, though)

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, but because it can't be healed except by eating or drinking, you can never regain consciousness and age to death with no hope of recovery.

[Jack_Simth]

Yes, but because it can't be healed except by eating or drinking, you can never regain consciousness and age to death with no hope of recovery.

That would be dying of old age. I figured they'd get eaten by rats sooner. Yes, I know the distinction is rather petty. There's a reason I added 'technically' when writing that sentence.

[SinsI]

As I said earlier, a Discern Location spell would find them, and is a level lower than the Gate that is "routinely" used. No matter what, I don't imagine the scenario going the way the OP seems to suggest.
They are in a location there even their Gods can't reach them, anything with less power (like Discern Location) won't help either. Permanently established Gate is not that expensive; it is not like someone re-casts it each time it is used.


Was Eschew Materials banned? I can't find any mention of it in the thread, but a Sorcerer with that feat ought to be fine. Alternately, a Sorcerer could just learn spells without material components, though that does make a lot of good spells off-limits.

Also, in addition to the Warforged/Elan ideas, any sort of (non-Native) Outsider should do well surviving in the wilderness, as they don't need to eat or sleep. Perhaps a Neraph (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)?
Of course it is not banned! And neither is Eidetic Memory, for that matter...
Paper and magic ink can also be crafted, as per the ordinary crafting rules.

The question is, how long will it take to craft even 1 page worth of those, though? Or to gather the necessary components for spell research?

If we were to assume that the amount a normal craftsman earns per day is the amount of components you can create in a day, wouldn't it take years to scribe each spell?


If these 1st level characters come from a high level high magic home, they should have wayyyy more magic items and transhuman augmentations and such, just as normal parts of living out their day to day lives, if this is a place that casts gate for 1st level characters.
It is a High level magic home, not an equality utopia setting.
You might use public Gate for commuting (just like we use trains and the like), but a Flight spell is as expensive for a 1st level character as owning an airplane is in our world.

[Mutazoia]

Paper and magic ink can also be crafted, as per the ordinary crafting rules.

The question is, how long will it take to craft even 1 page worth of those, though? Or to gather the necessary components for spell research?

With no proper tools it's going to be almost impossible to craft usable paper: Cutting down a tree, reducing it to saw dust (powder consistency), turning that sawdust into mash, rolling, pressing and drying said mash...if you've never tried it, it's a pain in the arse WITH the proper tools.

Also there are no rules (that I can find) for crafting magic ink yourself. Making normal ink is going to be next to impossible in the wilderness with out the proper ingredients:

Black Permanent Ink

1/2 tsp lamp black (which you can buy or can make by holding a plate over a candle and collecting the soot or from collecting other char)
1 egg yolk
1 tsp gum arabic
1/2 cup honey

Mix together the egg yolk, gum arabic, and honey. Stir in the lamp black. This will produce a thick paste which you can store in a sealed container. To use the ink, mix this paste with a small amount of water to achieve the desired consistency.

sounds pretty easy...but where do you get gum arabic? Well you can substitute Dextrine:

Ingredients

Corn starch
Water
Tincture of iodine
Making Dextrine from Starch

Measure out one quarter cup of corn starch into a shallow, preferably aluminum, pan.
Place starch into an oven preheated to 350° Fahrenheit.
Remove from oven at five-minute intervals, stirring thoroughly and crushing any lumps with the back of a metal spoon.
When the starch has acquired a uniformly golden or canary-yellow colour (after which no colour change should be evident), and is capable of dissolving completely in water (and ideally, giving a negative or very slight positive test for starch), the lysis of the starch chains has been completed and the resulting product is yellow dextrine. This should take between an hour and several hours.
Overheating of the starch may cause caramelization of the dextrinous sugars, as well as a decreased adhesive strength of the resulting product. Do not continue to heat after lysis is complete.

...better hope your players regularly pack baking soda and tincture of iodine when going a a dungeon crawl :smallbiggrin:

Now they just have to figure out how to make it magic.

[Vogonjeltz]

The point is that in the Core rules nonlethal damage on its own cannot kill a character. It can stagger her or knock her unconscious, but a character will never die from nonlethal damage. Since starvation and thirst only cause nonlethal damage, there is no point at which they can actually kill you.

(I think that Sandstorm has expanded rules on hunger and thirst that are less silly, though)

Yes Sandstorm adds a new condition, dehydration, and it states that a character who falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead. No damage can be restored until being treated for dehydration.

Doesn't have info there on hunger, but given the time required to starve, I would rule it equally applicable.

[Mellack]

Where is this place that the Gods can't reach, Discern Location can't find, but yet Gate can go both ways? That seems to me to go against the basic rules.

[MadGreenSon]

This whole concept would run so much easier if the PCs were just from an entirely urban setting, like Sigil. Then they can be whatever class, no worries about high-up mages and such searching for them and they could have an accident with one of the many portals in Sigil with most who even know of it just writing them off as lost forever.

And they could end up anywhere in the multiverse.

Who are these PCs at 1st level that 16+ level Clerics and/or Wizards are looking for them?
What kind of gods do they worship that are such micromanagers?

Why is losing a few first level characters being made so hard?

[SinsI]

Where is this place that the Gods can't reach, Discern Location can't find, but yet Gate can go both ways? That seems to me to go against the basic rules.

Well, specialized 9th level spells tend to do things 8th level spells can't do.

Or maybe that whole area is just separated from their world by something that completely blocks any forms of normal communication (i.e. it is behind an equivalent of Prime Material Plane of Lead, only upgraded to a Mind Blank level).

With no proper tools it's going to be almost impossible to craft usable paper: Cutting down a tree, reducing it to saw dust (powder consistency), turning that sawdust into mash, rolling, pressing and drying said mash...if you've never tried it, it's a pain in the arse WITH the proper tools.
Now they just have to figure out how to make it magic.

Papyrus is easier to create. Or parchment. Or maybe magic allows to do most of that with a single spell.
And at first levels he can take a piece of wood and carve the text into it.

[Kudaku]

There's been a little bit of negativity presented here, but I think the basic idea is entirely valid - I just think you're making some questionable choices in how you're going about establishing the campaign. Purely for reference, this is how I'd handle it if I were running a campaign similar to what you're thinking about doing:

1. Clerics still gain power from their deities, and in general I wouldn't tamper with classes any more than strictly necessary. Removing deities from the campaign to make sure the PCs can't be reached that way is very much using a cannon to shoot sparrows. Instead I'd say that the Gate accident catapulted them ahead/backwards in time (alternate timeline to keep things sane), and that they need to research a special variant of the Gate spell to return to their own time. The island/world they're on has an unusually high concentration of lead in the soil, which interferes with divination spells. Planet of the Ape-style monument reveal is optional, but highly encouraged :smallbiggrin:.
Note that this could instead lead to a "time travel hijinks"-campaign, but if so it would most likely not come online until ~lvl 18.

I wouldn't touch wizard scribing etc, they're already pretty boned by losing easy access to scrolls. I'd also make sure there was an unusually high amount of spellbook (or the regional equivalent) loot for casters who learn by copying spells. As far as scribing costs go, I'd treat it the same way as creating items - as long as you have the cash on hand, it doesn't matter how you go about scribing. Burning the letters into a twig or writing the letters into a spellbook cost the same thing - the form the cash takes is abstract.

2. I wouldn't necessarily inform the players exactly what I'm planning, but I wouldn't lie to them either. If you're telling your friends to prepare characters for a political intrigue-campaign and it turns into a post-apocalypse zombie setting by session two, odds are the players are going to feel deceived at best. I'd tell the players something like: "you will likely be out of contact with your home area for extended periods of time, some degree of self-sufficiency will be attractive".

3. In most D&D games I would expect at least one character dying between level 1 and 9, and in the setting you are describing there is, near as I can tell, no resources available outside the party for spells like Remove Disease, Remove Blindness, and most importantly - Raise Dead. There is no logical explanation for how a "new" PC joined the party in case a character dies (or the player playing him just wants to retire the character, which happens), since up until that time there was literally only four intelligent beings in the world.
I'd definitely include at least one sentient humanoid group in the general area so I have a handy pool of NPCs to draw PCs or intrigue from. I'd probably also include a group of NPCs with the PCs when the gate accident happened - why were the party the only people to board "the train" that day?

4. I'd make sure either the party will have access to magical crafting feats - either in the form of bonus feats or magical equipment that helps them craft, or one of the previously mentioned NPCs. Many classes are utterly dependent on magic gear to function, and going from a "high magic setting" to "low magic survival" overnight will be a shock - especially to rogues, fighters and monks.

Looking at the monster manual, most creatures that grant treasure are or were at one point intelligent. If this island is populated entirely by dangerous non-intelligent wildlife, odds are the party will be significantly behind WBL. I'd either compensate for this by adding in another source of wealth, or place some appropriate elements in the campaign to explain why there is treasure on the island - for instance, massive ruins of an old temple populated by constructs, traps, and undead guardians gives the place a bit of an Indiana Jones-theme.

5. I'd include some low-grade survival equipment to help the party early on - think of it as the "Gate" equivalent a lifeboat. Ten potions of Cure Light Wounds, a few Healer's Kits, thirty days of basic rations, that kind of thing.

6. 1-5 is the stuff that struck me immediately when thinking about a "Lost-campaign". Next we get to the stuff I didn't think of: I'd look to other campaigns and books and draw some ideas and inspiration. Pathfinder's Serpent Skull starts off with the party shipwrecked - how do they handle the party's lack of resources or easy access to civilization? Pathfinder's Kingmaker is all about establishing a civilized presence in an area otherwise dominated by wilderness - can I steal some ideas from there about how to motivate the party to explore and tame the local area?