How to deal with High Charisma Characters

[Honest Tiefling]

I am posting this because I don't know if I am being unfair to the player or not, and I worry he's getting frustrated that his skills aren't being counted. He's made a high charisma character in Pathfinder, taking even traits to boost these skills. However, he hasn't gotten the best reaction from NPCs. A sample of things the character has done:
Grabbed a hamadryad's boob while she was trying to rescue someone, botched the roll to hide it
Insulted a man trying to ask one of the party members for help by demanding booze. I think it was while he was trying to explain that the town was under attack.
Complimented a very vain and prideful Medusa on her bosom

I think he's getting frustrated his character isn't getting a better reaction, but I kinda don't think this approach is going to work with most people. (The Hamadryad for instance, really isn't into mortals, though the player did not know that). Am I being unreasonable with how the NPCs are reacting?

[Vhaidara]

Sounds like someone who expects to get away with everything because of a good Cha.

Ask him if he thinks a woman would react well if a random but hot guy walked up and decided to cop a feel.

If the same guy interrupted a man who's house was on fire by asking for a beer.

I can actually king of see his point of view on the last one. That should have had a solid shot at working.

[Asteron]

I am posting this because I don't know if I am being unfair to the player or not, and I worry he's getting frustrated that his skills aren't being counted. He's made a high charisma character in Pathfinder, taking even traits to boost these skills. However, he hasn't gotten the best reaction from NPCs. A sample of things the character has done:
Grabbed a hamadryad's boob while she was trying to rescue someone, botched the roll to hide it
Insulted a man trying to ask one of the party members for help by demanding booze. I think it was while he was trying to explain that the town was under attack.
Complimented a very vain and prideful Medusa on her bosom

I think he's getting frustrated his character isn't getting a better reaction, but I kinda don't think this approach is going to work with most people. (The Hamadryad for instance, really isn't into mortals, though the player did not know that). Am I being unreasonable with how the NPCs are reacting?

Explain to him that a high Charisma score does not let you get away with groping and insulting... If you play like a jerk, you can expect to be treated like one by those you insult.

He might be able to get away with charming most people, but when he does things like that, he loses that benefit with thos NPCs. Personally, I'd treat the first two individuals as Unfriendly/Hostile for social skills.

[Urpriest]

Having a high Cha means he should have some amount of basic social competence, even without skill ranks. That means that when he says his character does something like grab an NPC's boob, you can step in and say that his character would probably know better than to do that, just like you could step in when a high Wis character is about to do something lacking in common sense. If he insists on going through with it you should let him, but in general as the DM it's a good idea to help out players whose mental stats fall short of their characters when they need it.

[Orick]

He is roleplaying his character to be a jerk.

The NPC's should treat him accordingly.

[SinsI]

He is roleplaying his character to be a jerk.

The NPC's should treat him accordingly.

Or treat HIM like a sex object. I.e. act like one of the ladies that come to watch Chippendales.

[dantiesilva]

I myself always play very high cha character and would only expect the first one to work unless I had history with the hamadryad. Though that's not saying much because my most recent high cha character has a child with a dryad, a few humans, is talking to an arena(thus spider sharpshooter things), and is in a long distance relationship with a vampire, all at the same time. He also has a crazy killer nymph relationship but that's a bit harder to explain.

The difference is I have spent a year of real time working on these characters, I do not just randomly do something because they are hot. That's what his incubus blood is for lol. Besides the medusa I think you have played everything fair. I myself have noticed my dm let's more things slide when I do a really good rp, instead of just relying on a good dice roll.

Example for medusa

I am so sorry to intrude, I just heard though that I could find the most beautiful women in the world here. I didn't mean to intrude, but I must say that succubus was not lying when she told me so.*gets on knees as he takes her hand and kisses it* my name is[insert name] and after seeing such beauty I don't think I could live a single moment without being yours. I know it is a lot to ask from a goddess of beauty like yourself but I would be the luckiest person in all the planes to have you by my side.

See that even rolling a 2 my cm would let slide because I fed into her vanity and such. I roleplayed not rollplayed.

[Dimers]

I do prefer to let the dice determine social situations, though if the player wants input into the specifics of how it plays out, they can get a bonus or penalty to the roll. In this case, the jerky character would get a significant penalty, and then I'd roll, and if the numbers still came up good I'd play out the scene with the NPC being favorable anyway.

Unless the NPC is a devotee of the forces of Law, there's always room to change how they feel right now. And unless the NPC's whole life history and detailed psychology is written up ahead of time, there's always a reason they might like the wacko behavior.

The flip side is true, too. If a player has a social bonus but still tanks a roll, I play the scene as if they said the one thing that really gets under the NPC's skin. "I want to help conserve the forest--" "You bastard! That forest claimed my brother's life!" :smalltongue:

[sleepyphoenixx]

High charisma doesn't make you less of a jerk. It just makes you a charismatic jerk, so he might get away with it if he tries to apologize where a less charismatic character might not.
The difference is that a high charisma character usually KNOWS he's a jerk (and just doesn't care/expects to get away with it) where a low charisma character might just be socially inept and not realize that what he's saying/doing is offensive.

[malmblad]

Charisma isn't always etiquette or social grace. Being polite and being likable aren't interchangeable. Sometimes people have raw magnetism. Sometimes they have an elusive quality that makes them endearing.

There are people in this world that can get away with all sorts of selfish behaviors and people seem to like them all the more for it. Think rock stars.

I won't tell you how you should adjudicate your player's high charisma. Just keep in mind that people like this do exist and you shouldn't dismiss his actions as immediately offensive just because under normal conditions it would be offensive.

[Segev]

I would tell the player, when he's about to do something inappropriate, what kind of reaction his social awareness might tell him to expect. Ask him what he hopes to accomplish, and then give some suggestions on what might work. If he is trying to brazen his way past socially unacceptable behavior by the "but she likes it, coming from me" sort of attitude, consider how the NPC(s) might feel if they find themselves being somewhat attracted despite themselves to this boorish behavior.

Perhaps the slap is less hearty than it might be if she were genuinely offended. Perhaps, despite not being into mortals, this one intrigues her. Don't change the character completely, but do try to play it in the most positive way possible.

And again, ask the player what sort of reactions he's expecting/trying to elicit. That can help identify either where he would know better (and you should inform him of that and how to get there) or how to play the NPCs' reactions differently in light of this charismatic person's behavior.

[Honest Tiefling]

Thanks for the reply guys. I've talked to him about it, and he's said that he's trying to RP someone like Tony Stark, who can be abrasive but still very likable. I think he's much of the former, little of the latter, unfortunately.

He's said that he's met women who didn't mind uh...Such forward advances, but I imagine they're going to be the (vast) minority, not majority.

As for raw magnetism, I at least have decided that no one has gotten too offended, except for the gnome. The Hamadryad still helped them out without asking for much in return, even after said groping. All he got for that one was a bad look.

I am not sure it makes much sense for it to override a character's actual interests and personality, or make them ignore strange or rude behaviors. Maybe its just me, but I just don't think it really makes sense.

As for the Medusa, I think that perhaps I went a little far with that one. But since she's stuck in a cave with little company, maybe she's a little more annoyed then usual. The player has indicated interest in pursuing a relationship with her, so perhaps just RP it she was in a bad mood and dealing with four weirdos coming in did not help and sorta lost it when one decided to compliment her breasts.

[Asteron]

What I have my players with high charisma characters do is give me the gist of what they want to say and then roll and let their modifiers do the work of prettying it up for them. None of my players has a high charisma, so I don't expect them to be able to act this out on their own.

[Segev]

It is unsurprising that a player trying to act abrasive-but-lovable would come off more the former than the latter. Everybody is capable of pulling off "abrasive" if they give it even the slightest effort. If everybody could pull off "lovable," though, we'd have a lot fewer unpopular people.

This is little different from somebody trying to play a brilliant tactician when he can't plan a battle to save his life, or somebody trying to play a muscle-bound warrior when he wouldn't be able to drag a battle-axe across a football field without frequent breaks to catch their breath.

What you should do here is take his intent, look at the fictional examples of successful versions, suggest tweaks to the approach and let the dice do some determination of attitudes. Then have NPCs react as if he was as smooth as the mechanics say he should be, despite the abrasive behavior.

[Meth In a Mine]

Or treat HIM like a sex object. I.e. act like one of the ladies that come to watch Chippendales.
Had an orc get treated like that by some drow once.

On topic, he needs to understand that there are some things that just won't fly in any situation without enchantments. Grabbing some random woman's boobs is one of those things. He sounds less like the party diplomat and more like a stereotypical frat boy: wanting nothing but sex and booze.

[DrDeth]

How old is he?:smallsigh:

[Yawgmoth]

How old is he?:smallsigh: My money is on 12.

[Larpus]

In an eerily similar situation, a GM of mine once did the following:

Whenever the player was acting the "lovable jerk" thing he wanted for whatever reason he'd have to roll his raw Charisma and the GM would secretly roll a d10 'reaction' roll.

The reaction roll worked as such: a "whatever" NPC (say a random commoner woman) would have a 50% (or so, hidden roll, none of the players had any idea) chance of be "sluttish" and would actually view the jerk move as positive or at least neutral; otherwise, she'd respond negatively to it, dissing him as an idiotic jerk at best.

A higher profile NPC, or NPC with a reason to react negatively (such as the mentioned man with the burnt house) would have a lower chance to enjoy his jerkyness, possibly going as far as 0%, with the dice roll merely being there to make things seem "fair".

If the player happened to get 15+ on his roll and the reaction roll was favorable, he'd be able to make his jerk move without penalty, if he happened to get a nat 20, it would even improve the NPC's reaction.

Otherwise, it would make the situation slightly worse at best (the NPC wouldn't like him, though still unchanged to the rest of the group) or really screw it depending on what he did.

A random commoner girl is unlikely to mind too much (or have the means to do anything) about a lvl4 jerk trying to steal a kiss; a high-cleric on the other hand...oh boy.

All that said, the player wasn't a complete idiot about it, most of the time he'd delegate such behavior to "whatever" NPCs, leaving plot-important NPCs out unless the situation sort of called for it; such as the GM specifically saying "you all meet the mayor and his daughter, and she is an extremely voluptuous and attractive woman, you all swear she looked at you quite flirty and suggestive", which is when the GM actually had some sort of plan based on the PC's playboy attitude.

He also never did anything too offensive in context; such as, he'd never coup a feel out of a random girl on daylight, but he did once do such a thing to a hooker on a really crappy tavern in a very crappy part of the town where such a thing was really sort of in character.

[georgie_leech]

You might point out that Tony doesn't actually grope random pretty girls. Ogle, yes, make comments, yes, try to flirt regardless of his chances, yes, but not straight up fondle people. The last example with the Medusa fits the archetype a lot better than the first.

[zlefin]

if he's looking for a good example, there was someone on the l5r wintercourt 3 roleplay that did it well; scorpion emerald magistrate iirc.

[Urpriest]

One point about the Tony Stark archetype: the idea is not so much to get people to like you by being crude to them, it's to overwhelm them so they get bowled over and can't marshal the resources to properly oppose you. Basically, you flirt, the medusa is offended, and while she's busy being offended you walk right past before she notices.

[Ziegander]

Thanks for the reply guys. I've talked to him about it, and he's said that he's trying to RP someone like Tony Stark, who can be abrasive but still very likable. I think he's much of the former, little of the latter, unfortunately.

Movie Tony Stark is actually a lot more intelligent than he is charismatic. The way he's written in the comics varies, and even movie Tony Stark would still have a positive charisma modifier, but all I'm saying is that if the player wants to be Tony Stark, then being a rapey douchebag and hinging his likability on a high charisma score isn't going to work. Tony Stark is smart enough to know what to say, when, and to whom. He is smart enough to know that, even if he wanted to, groping someone without any sort of sexual provocation is not okay. Tony Stark is well-liked because his antics are amusing and he is a genius, not necessarily because he's that charming.

[dantiesilva]

Well since he wants to be like Tony next time ask him, what would Black widow do to you if you tried that? See if that makes him stop and think:smallwink:

[Hiro Quester]

I'd let him make a diplomacy roll to see if he can use the high charisma to talk his way out of or into his goal. But make it clear that his jerk/douchebag/rapey behavior adds a high DC penalty to the roll.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Tried for Tony Stark.

Landed firmly in the 'Justin Hammer' space on the wheel. Ouch.

Try reminding your player that it very much helps Stark's odds, that he's A) Rich. B) Powerful. C) Able to build a 350hp Supercar with parts from two old fridges and a wagon. And D) Wealthy.

...Did I mention filthy, stinking, rich? Rich enough to slap together multi-million dollar power armor suits in an evening, on auto-assembly, while he goes out for a drink?

In DnD terms, Tony Stark is a Great Wyrm: He's got wealth, power, and the ability to not only back it up, but if he wants to, make people make OTHER people vanish for him, without lifting a finger. (see the end of Ironman 1).

Stark is MILES ahead of the curve of any PC that's pre-epic. And rightfully so.

Cheesy pickup lines tend to be forgiven, if you can send your one-night stands home in a limo, and let them keep it.

[elonin]

I'd let him make a wisdom check to get a clue that what he's about to do is highly inappropriate or know the dc (or modifier) of what he's attempting.

[Thanatosia]

Should at least partially be dependant on how high his Cha actually is. 14-17 is good but still 'normal' and should be treated the way you are. 18-23 is rockstar level - you flat out get away with **** you probably shouldn't - give him more leeway here.... 24+ starts to drift into pure supernatural territory and I tend to agree he should probably at least sometimes get away with that stuff just as he intends.

[Slipperychicken]

I've been in a similar situation to your player several times (granted, my characters' offensiveness isn't nearly as sexualized or creepy). Basically, at that time I made characters who were social-skill monsters, but I did not personally display the social savvy to portray a character who is even remotely likable. It was a dreadful feeling to roll 30+ on diplomacy, only for the GM to say "That argument couldn't convince a child, much less a crowd of jaded townsfolk. You fail, roll initiative", and it really drives home the idea that even in an escapist fantasy, your friends won't even humor you for a moment about your social skills.

I find that it can work to simply narrate what my character tries to do, then roll for it if necessary, just like with any other action. Say my character wants to convince a bouncer to let him pass: I say something like "My character lies about having lost his ID and fabricates a reason to enter the club, playing to the bouncer's pity to convince him to let my character pass", and then make an appropriate roll, including any applicable bonuses and penalties for the feasibility of the action.


Now, before the self-proclaimed "roleplayers-not-rollplayers" start biting my head off, I ask you: How in the world is an obnoxious socially-inept basement-dwelling nerd with 3 friends supposed to emulate a personality so awesome, dynamic, and perfectly-attuned that it could melt the hearts of kings and gods?

[Afgncaap5]

Generally whenever I've had a character try to do something like that (though typically with Intelligence or a different stat) I let them know that their mental ability scores describe a character, and aren't a ticket to let them do anything. A wizard player may not be as smart as the wizard, and as such might not instinctively know a good way to solve a maze, but the player can act intelligent and describe him or herself intelligently pondering the maze before the actual numbers come into play.

For a character who treated charisma rolls like that, I'd explain that by not acting charismatically, his charisma rolls actually suffer negatives. The medusa example might not work, but I probably wouldn't apply as much of a negative to it as I would to the hamadryad example.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

One point about the Tony Stark archetype: the idea is not so much to get people to like you by being crude to them, it's to overwhelm them so they get bowled over and can't marshal the resources to properly oppose you. Basically, you flirt, the medusa is offended, and while she's busy being offended you walk right past before she notices.That seems to me like a refluffed Intimidate, potentially with Imperious Command if you use it in combat.

[dantiesilva]

Slipperychicken I hang out with one friend only, and am a single father. Don't go out ever to do anything social :smallwink: Don't worry your closet nerd membership is safe with me, we monsters like to stick to the dark safe places after all. Like infront of computer screens typing lol.

And the fact that you try to at least explain what your character is doing is enough in my eyes as it is resonable. It is not just, " I try to tell this man to do what I want" *rolls 1d20* hey look I got a natural 20 so i succeed right? I have just learned a DM is more willing to work with you when you give them something to go on. Hell I had my cleric complete a maze just by keeping his hand on one wall while a wizard tried doing the same maze and took longer because he first wanted to blast everything, then try to fly up to the top and get to the end. Both failed mind you as the maze was in a tree so could not fly over it, and the maze had guardians that were greenbound creatures. Sure blast some walls they will know where to find you. (This cleric would also be my 21 cha cleric that is fluffed to be an incubus in reality but because of powerful magic and a long ammount of time he made an alternate personality that won out. Now he is a Human paragon3/Cleric 5/ Druid 5. Quite amusing really and having a lot of fun playing him.

[Darkweave31]

High charisma does not excuse sexual harassment. Just because someone is charismatic doesn't mean everyone will like them, especially if they are mistreated.

So no, this isn't at all unfair. Don't stop him from playing his character, but let him know people will continue to react accordingly if he wants to play as a misogynistic jerk.

[Honest Tiefling]

...I find that it can work to simply narrate what my character tries to do, then roll for it if necessary, just like with any other action. Say my character wants to convince a bouncer to let him pass: I say something like "My character lies about having lost his ID and fabricates a reason to enter the club, playing to the bouncer's pity to convince him to let my character pass", and then make an appropriate roll, including any applicable bonuses and penalties for the feasibility of the action...

I am oddly okay with this approach. Maybe I'm just a bad DM/Roleplayer, but what I am really after is a tactic, not 'I rolled a 23. What do I get?' for many diplomacy rolls.

Of course, I am uncertain what he was trying to get out of the Hamadryad with this, but I like the approach. I'll definitely keep it in mind as most of the party has high charisma, but one player is a little shaky on speaking up.

[QuackParker]

Have him make Diplomacy check in advance to woo. If he can put on the right moves to improve her opinion of him, then maybe he can cop a feel and get away with it. Let him succeed in his pervy roleplay, but make him work for it

[SinsI]

I am oddly okay with this approach. Maybe I'm just a bad DM/Roleplayer, but what I am really after is a tactic, not 'I rolled a 23. What do I get?' for many diplomacy rolls.

Of course, I am uncertain what he was trying to get out of the Hamadryad with this, but I like the approach. I'll definitely keep it in mind as most of the party has high charisma, but one player is a little shaky on speaking up.

Wouldn't any other approach mean that you actually ignore in-game skills?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Bad behavior not being tolerated? Really? In a medieval society? Because that's the society where, IRL, the local lord's son got to sleep with the bride right before the wedding if he felt like it. But even in a modern society, think about the kind of power the local crime lord, the local governor, a famous singer or athlete and similar types could socially project. Hell, there have been people that were charismatic enough to get an entire group of people to commit suicide or equally ridiculous acts through charismatic influence alone.



That said, it IS morally wrong. And acting against morality and common courtesy is a fairly chaotic evil act. You know what chaotic evil acts of lust attract, right? Succubae. And a succubus can turn into any shape she wants to attract such an individual's attention - and every single act of lust she manages to trick him into is a negative level for him. A kiss is a negative level and a suggestion for another kiss. End result? Total soul loss to the cute redhead he thought was his target - he was her target instead.

[Arbane]

That said, it IS morally wrong. And acting against morality and common courtesy is a fairly chaotic evil act. You know what chaotic evil acts of lust attract, right? Succubae. And a succubus can turn into any shape she wants to attract such an individual's attention - and every single act of lust she manages to trick him into is a negative level for him. A kiss is a negative level and a suggestion for another kiss. End result? Total soul loss to the cute redhead he thought was his target - he was her target instead.

Two obvious responses:

1: Unless, of course, she wants to encourage him...
2: Good idea. PCs should not interact with NPCs for any reasons other than quest-receiving, shopping, and combat.

[mephnick]

Is this player 12 years old?

Play with adults.

[PersonMan]

You know what chaotic evil acts of lust attract, right? Succubae. And a succubus can turn into any shape she wants to attract such an individual's attention - and every single act of lust she manages to trick him into is a negative level for him.

On one hand, I feel like turning a character trait like this into plot hooks is a good thing.

On the other...well, to be honest, I want to encourage things that aren't "Is the NPC giving me a quest? No? Ok, I don't care about them then, unless I want to buy something from them or they're a monster" in my games, which this works against. I mean, this kind of this is almost literally exactly how you train someone to not connect to the world. Next on the list is killing their family for drama and having their friends betray them, right? Then we'll have our, as someone put it, 'vat-grown ninja killers'.

A better idea would to have some good and some bad come of this. Maybe he sleeps with someone who tells him something important once they're done. Another might start some drama with their family, potentially wanting the charming traveler to stay and settle down with them. The majority won't be important, just like the majority of other super-minor NPCs who only interact with someone due to a character detail won't be. But it is a nice addition of character depth, just like a character who always stops in the local church to pray to their deity for aid, or the mage who offers to copy books and entertains children with his cantrips, something to make them more than a journey-fight-kill-loot machine.

[Honest Tiefling]

Bad behavior not being tolerated? Really? In a medieval society? Because that's the society where, IRL, the local lord's son got to sleep with the bride right before the wedding if he felt like it. But even in a modern society, think about the kind of power the local crime lord, the local governor, a famous singer or athlete and similar types could socially project. Hell, there have been people that were charismatic enough to get an entire group of people to commit suicide or equally ridiculous acts through charismatic influence alone.



That said, it IS morally wrong. And acting against morality and common courtesy is a fairly chaotic evil act. You know what chaotic evil acts of lust attract, right? Succubae. And a succubus can turn into any shape she wants to attract such an individual's attention - and every single act of lust she manages to trick him into is a negative level for him. A kiss is a negative level and a suggestion for another kiss. End result? Total soul loss to the cute redhead he thought was his target - he was her target instead.

1) The idea that a lord could sleep with a woman before her wedding night is actually a myth made up that people spread about the people next door to make them look bad.

2) Given that the main people nearby are matrilineal, and the others worship a lot of female gods I doubt that the laws are going to be stacked against women in such a way. Also, with the number of female players this is probably a bad idea to introduce. Not unless I want them killing everyone.

3) I think Succubi should not respond to groping, because it kills the mystery if they show up so often and for such a minor act. I think it would be better for planar entities to show up for the really depraved, truly and utterly evil acts.

4) And yeah, I just want him to hit on NPCs in a slightly less weird way, not discourage it. In other situations, the character HAS been charming and interacting with NPCs in ways that don't involve loot or killing.

[Raven777]

Charisma is not merely likability or attractiveness. Charisma is force of personality, your presence in a room, how much people are likely to give weight to the things you say and do, be it in a bad or a good way. Martin Luther King? High Charisma. Lord Voldemort? High Charisma.

However, being a huge jerk is probably incompatible with the stat. High Charisma means that your are usually a smoother operator than what your PC does. As a DM, you should intervene and tell the player that "your character knows better than to do that", because in this chase, the character objectively does know better than the player. :smalltongue:

[Eldest]

Bad behavior not being tolerated? Really? In a medieval society? Because that's the society where, IRL, the local lord's son got to sleep with the bride right before the wedding if he felt like it. But even in a modern society, think about the kind of power the local crime lord, the local governor, a famous singer or athlete and similar types could socially project. Hell, there have been people that were charismatic enough to get an entire group of people to commit suicide or equally ridiculous acts through charismatic influence alone.



That said, it IS morally wrong. And acting against morality and common courtesy is a fairly chaotic evil act. You know what chaotic evil acts of lust attract, right? Succubae. And a succubus can turn into any shape she wants to attract such an individual's attention - and every single act of lust she manages to trick him into is a negative level for him. A kiss is a negative level and a suggestion for another kiss. End result? Total soul loss to the cute redhead he thought was his target - he was her target instead.

You're pointing to positions of power. Political positions. They aren't powerful because they can personally do something, but they can cause it to be done regardless. Most D&D characters, though powerful, are personally powerful. Political power is from other people.

Second, what does Chaos have to do with that behavior? Freedom, change, anarchy. If he's tricking them into it, chaotic, maybe, if he's abusing his legally given powers or honor code, lawful, but harassment on it's own is just evil, no ethical weight one way or the other.

Edit: I, personally, would say that he's not going to get away with all of those, and more importantly for me I would not want to play with somebody who hits on people against their will, or rather makes unwanted sexual advances over and over (which is what this looks like). Knee-jerk angry reaction from me.

[jedipotter]

I think he's getting frustrated his character isn't getting a better reaction, but I kinda don't think this approach is going to work with most people. (The Hamadryad for instance, really isn't into mortals, though the player did not know that). Am I being unreasonable with how the NPCs are reacting?

Yes. I know it is tempting to do the ''worst case effect'' when a player does something. But the truth is that high charisma characters can get away with a lot. That is what high charisma means. It is not just ''being a movie or rock star'', it is handling people.