Rapid Shot vs Manyshot 3.5

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So I was looking over feats today, because I was wondering what leadership does, and for good feats for my bard. (Help with those is welcome to) And I stopped and read about manyshot, and it just seemed like a crappy version of rapid shot. Your shooting two arrows, each at a -2 penalty, which you already do with rapid shot, and at higher levels you can add more arrows and increase the penalty. Sure, at higher levels you fire more arrows, but at stupid penalty. If I got something wrong please correct me (I'm too lazy to look up the PHB right now) And as always, go nuts.

[Oko and Qailee]

Rapid shot is generally considered better than manyshot, but manyshot has an advantage in that it's a standard action to do, whereas rapidshot requires a full round.

[Anxe]

Manyshot is quite good if you can add bonus damage to each arrow. For example, using a +1 Flaming Bow. Each arrow does 1d8+1d6+1. You can move and fire all that damage at a high attack bonus, all in one round. Rapid Shot lets you get an extra attack, but the other iteratives after it are kind of... less worth it.

As was said, its the standard vs. full round action that decides it. I just like the Manyshot concept of stacking damage enhancements on a bow.

[Kazudo]

Manyshot typically works better for me, since it makes for GREAT Skirmish and sneak attack damage with scout/rogue builds (standard action, and all)

[Nihilarian]

Manyshot typically works better for me, since it makes for GREAT Skirmish and sneak attack damage with scout/rogue builds (standard action, and all)Only if you get Greater Many shot, it should be noted.

[Kazudo]

Only if you get Greater Many shot, it should be noted.

Naturally. Before that, though, compared to just firing a single arrow per iterative attack, the damage is higher for the same precision-based effect. Then you get into the epic feats and, well, yeah.

[Big Fau]

That "stupid penalty" replaces iterative attack penalties with a flat -8, meaning you're more likely to hit with all 4 attacks (at the cost of penalizing your first attack). Where Manyshot really shines, however, is the ability to move and still make 4 attacks.

If that last part isn't relevant, Rapid Shot is superior due to giving 5 total attacks (3 are highly likely to hit, the fourth being crapshoot, the last almost never hitting).

[Dimers]

If you don't have some other way to get good damage from a standard action -- say, Greater Psionic Shot + deep crystal bow, or ten levels of Order Of The Bow Initiate -- then Manyshot can be a major increase in damage output in the quite frequent situation where you need to both shoot and move.

Ironically, Order Of The Bow Initiate also offers mundane classes the ability to fire in melee without getting smacked, which is one of the reasons they would otherwise need to both shoot and move :smalltongue:

Ideally, an archer should have Manyshot and Rapid Shot to take the best advantage of different tactical situations.

[NoACWarrior]

I think Manyshot is a lot more abuseable with spell and ability enhancers, since you are using a single attack roll. Think of True Strike, +20 on your next attack roll. True, you are spending 2 standard actions for an auto hit of all your arrows (3-6).

Rapid Shot is better most of the time, Manyshot is very good in certain situations (you can use a Manyshot volley to disrupt spell casting if you readied the action).

[Squark]

Greater Manyshot opens up a lot of options (The regular version, less so). Of course, there's also a feat to improve rapid shot, although I don't know if that just reduced the penalty, or actually adds attacks.

[Nihilarian]

Greater Manyshot opens up a lot of options (The regular version, less so). Of course, there's also a feat to improve rapid shot, although I don't know if that just reduced the penalty, or actually adds attacks.Just removes the penalty. Not usually worth it.

Targeteer gets an improved version, though.

[amalcon]

As everyone seems to agree, Manyshot is for situations where your move action is unavailable (surprise round, needing to actually move or draw an item, etc). The strange thing is that they actually complement each other: they are usable in different situations, but benefit from mostly the same things (mainly damage bonuses).

There are some ways to abuse Manyshot that don't work so well with Rapid Shot. For example, the Fell Shot / Psionic Meditation combo is amazing with Manyshot (nearly guaranteeing hits with every attack), but it does almost nothing with only Rapid Shot. This makes it interesting for psychic archers. That's not a bad archer configuration to begin with: you get Wisdom synergy with Zen Archery, and the Offensive Prescience power is one of the few good ways to get bow damage up.

There are also some things that stack with Rapid Shot but not Manyshot, such as the Tiger Claw maneuvers that give extra attacks.

[dethkruzer]

Manyshot is quite good if you can add bonus damage to each arrow. For example, using a +1 Flaming Bow. Each arrow does 1d8+1d6+1. You can move and fire all that damage at a high attack bonus, all in one round. Rapid Shot lets you get an extra attack, but the other iteratives after it are kind of... less worth it.

As was said, its the standard vs. full round action that decides it. I just like the Manyshot concept of stacking damage enhancements on a bow.

IIRC, bows don't work that way. Any enhancement bonuses on a ranged weapon only apply to attack rolls. Only special abilities that specifically apply to ammo apply. Enhancement bonuses to damage on ranged weapon come from magical ammo.

[Diarmuid]

I think Manyshot is a lot more abuseable with spell and ability enhancers, since you are using a single attack roll. Think of True Strike, +20 on your next attack roll. True, you are spending 2 standard actions for an auto hit of all your arrows (3-6).

This was a discussion my group had recently. Is the intention really to roll a single die with the appropriate penalty for both arrows, or to roll for each arrow at the same bonus/penalty?

[Telok]

With Manyshot you roll one attack and fire multiple arrows. All the arrows hit or miss based on that one attack and any precision damage applies only to the first arrow.

With Rapid Shot you roll one attack per arrow fired. Each arrow hits or misses based in it's attack roll and precision damage applies to each arrow.

Manyshot works best with things that enable you to hit. Rerolls, True Strike, and anything that boosts "your next attack". This allows you to focus more resources on damage bonuses.

Rapid Shot works best with precision damage. Because precision damage is usually a class feature you spend your resources on attack bonus and/or more Rapid Shot feats to get more arrows.

[TuggyNE]

IIRC, bows don't work that way. Any enhancement bonuses on a ranged weapon only apply to attack rolls. Only special abilities that specifically apply to ammo apply. Enhancement bonuses to damage on ranged weapon come from magical ammo.

Whaaaat? No, the highest enhancement bonus between ammunition and (cross)bow is used for both attack and damage, just like usual. There's no exception made for ranged weapons like that.

Unfortunately, this does mean that magical ammo provides no particular advantages in most cases, other than being cheaper if you are only going to fire a few shots.

[Nihilarian]

A +5 holy arrow fired from a +3 collision corrosive holy bow functions as a +5 holy collision corrosive arrow.

In other words, only the highest enhancement bonus applies, and duplicate enchantments don't stack. There's no special rule about enhancement bonuses only improving attack rolls.

There's also ways to make arrows that don't break. Specifically, the Raptor Arrow from Magic Item Compendium. IIRC, enchanting it costs the same as a standard arrow (1/50th the price of a weapon) but since it doesn't break it can be used over and over again.

I heard of another way which I haven't personally verified. Apparently there's a material that doesn't break? I want to say it's called something like "aurorum".

[Diarmuid]

I think that interpretation is a holdover from 3.0 where the interactions between arrows and bows was a bit different. A magical bow would not let you bypass DR X/magic (or +1 in 3.0), you had to have magical arrows as well.

[TuggyNE]

I heard of another way which I haven't personally verified. Apparently there's a material that doesn't break? I want to say it's called something like "aurorum".

Aurorum can break, but it can be reformed as a standard or full-round action, regaining any magical properties disabled by its temporary destruction.

It's some sort of metal, though, so arrows, which are chiefly wooden in D&D, probably can't legally be made from it without shenanananigans.

[Dimers]

You can explicitly make cold iron, silvered and adamantine arrows, and the BoED description of aurorum says nothing about the item primarily being made of metal, so that should fly.

At least, until your DM reads the description more fully and notices that aurorum only has that trick if it's been sundered, which has a specific game meaning :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

You can explicitly make cold iron, silvered and adamantine arrows, and the BoED description of aurorum says nothing about the item primarily being made of metal, so that should fly.

Well sure, because there the fact that the shaft is not metal doesn't matter: the head still penetrates fine. Aurorum, though, relies on being able to reassemble the whole thing, so while conceivably by a strictly dysfunctional RAW it's possible, it seems pretty silly for an aurorum head to reassemble the shattered wooden shaft behind it.


At least, until your DM reads the description more fully and notices that aurorum only has that trick if it's been sundered, which has a specific game meaning :smallbiggrin:

Heh. Ah well.

[CyberThread]

Only if you get Greater Many shot, it should be noted.



actually greatest many shot is much much much better.

[Nihilarian]

actually greatest many shot is much much much better.What? :smallconfused:

[TypoNinja]

Since Manyshot is a volley attack you only get precision damage once on it (Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Int to damage from swashbuckler, ect) its a bad option if precision damage is your main damage output method.

Also as explicitly called out as a Standard Action it also can't be used with things like the Ranged Precision attack from Order of the Bow Initiate. Has the upside of only being a Standard Action.

RapidShot on the other hand is simply an extra attack, so you can keep piling on the extra damage dice to all your attacks that round. The only downside of course is that its part full attack action. Its also easier to pick up than Manyshot.

However since action economy breaking magic items for movement are fairly common, my favored approach is to spend money on those, and rapid shot anyway.

[MirddinEmris]

It should be noted that Manyshot doesn't combine with OoBI precision damage, since both requires standard action to activate and you can't combine two actions into one.

Also main feature of Greater Manyshot is that it aloows you to aply precision damage with each arrow, instead of one time, making it somewhat worthwile for skirmishers and sneakers. And you can target different targets with each arrow, which is not so great but still can be useful.

[Dimers]

Well sure, because there the fact that the shaft is not metal doesn't matter: the head still penetrates fine. Aurorum, though, relies on being able to reassemble the whole thing, so while conceivably by a strictly dysfunctional RAW it's possible, it seems pretty silly for an aurorum head to reassemble the shattered wooden shaft behind it.

Apropos of which -- when I was a kid I owned a bow and some arrows, and some of those arrows had hollow metal shafts. Probably a bit beyond pseudomedieval tech, but certainly not beyond a good Fabricate! I need to remember that the next time I build a magical archer.

Aurorum really is a bundle of dysfunction, though. It will put chain, scale or splint back together even though a significant part of the weight and protection comes from non-metallic parts. Best not to think too hard about it.

[questionmark693]

So you guys are saying greater manyshot is a must have...but each arrow gets its own attack roll. Doesn't that take away the 'it's only one attack' benefit?

[Gavinfoxx]

We're saying that it is really, really, really hard to be competent at archery if all you have to do it is feats and not actual class features.

See how many absurd amount of feats I had to use to make a competent feat-based archer here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271165

[questionmark693]

Sorry, I was actually in agreement with that side of the coin-but greater manyshot feels like it loses the main benefit of manyshot, the fact that it's only one attack roll

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry, I was actually in agreement with that side of the coin-but greater manyshot feels like it loses the main benefit of manyshot, the fact that it's only one attack roll

And it gains the benefit of sneak attack, skirmish damage, etc. etc.?

[questionmark693]

Ah. Right, that makes sense, ok

[Anxe]

Sorry, I was actually in agreement with that side of the coin-but greater manyshot feels like it loses the main benefit of manyshot, the fact that it's only one attack roll

Still a standard action too.

[Deophaun]

And it gains the benefit of sneak attack, skirmish damage, etc. etc.?
You gain no such benefit, as Greater Manyshot is still a standard action, and precision damage is applied only to a single attack made by a standard action. Attacks made as full round actions, however, have precision damage applied to all attacks.

This is why, if you're a magic user looking to use scorching ray to deliver SA damage, you make sure you're getting scorching ray through a spontaneous caster and apply metamagic to it.

[Nihilarian]

You gain no such benefit, as Greater Manyshot is still a standard action, and precision damage is applied only to a single attack made by a standard action. Attacks made as full round actions, however, have precision damage applied to all attacks.

This is why, if you're a magic user looking to use scorching ray to deliver SA damage, you make sure you're getting scorching ray through a spontaneous caster and apply metamagic to it.That's not true. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)

[Deophaun]

That's not true. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)
That's what I get from looking at a source other than the d20SRD.

Sigh...