Archery: Not That Bad

[Snowbluff]

It's true. People complain, saying "I want to deal as much damage as a melee fighter AND easily full attack at 20 times the range!"

There are plenty of good archery builds. Sure, it has weaknesses, but no mundane style is completely perfect. Heck, the first time I was ever accused of turning the game into rocket tag was with a Tippy Monk/Factotum archer.

[Zaq]

Okay. Sorry, I don't see what discussion you're hoping to have here.

[OldTrees1]

Is there enough for an Archery handbook?

[Nihilarian]

All right I guess?

[Big Fau]

Is there enough for an Archery handbook?

One exists over on BG.

[Darkweave31]

Is there enough for an Archery handbook?

Yeah I think there is one already...


Archery is quite fun though. I'm partial to bard archers... something about singing a song of ancient draconic power that ignites your arrows with dragonfire is just appealing. Very fun if you're going for the arcane archer character concept, it just works.

I think the hate stems from investment vs return... archery (like two weapon fighting) requires a lot of level, feat, and/or wealth investment compared to two-handed weapons. Doesn't make archery less fun or viable, just costly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is also Piggy Knowles (did I spell that right?) archer build compilation thread.

[VoxRationis]

Archery in core does suffer from a certain lack of something. The most effective archery-boosting things I can recall are out of core (Raptor Arrows, various ranger spells in the Spell Compendium, etc.; I know this isn't an exhaustive list but I tend to stick to core), and people who talk about archer builds almost always mention alternate class features or other dumpster-diving shenanigans.
Yes, I know that this is why they add new material, but I think it sad that a whole classic fighting style is weak unless you open up a dairy to support it.

Let's look at archery feats:
Point Blank Shot: Not good, but a prerequisite, so fine, I'll work with that;
Far Shot: Useful situationally, though most PCs won't be operating anywhere near that range;
Precise Shot: Well, not taking large penalties is handy, I'll admit, but it brings you closer to 0 rather than giving you a positive;
Improved Precise Shot: Also useful, but a shame you have to be 11th level to get it, and really only useful if you're in a low-magic campaign where you won't have a magic item to pierce concealment anyway;
Rapid Shot: Useful; gives you extra attacks early on and for only a small penalty, even using the largest ranged weapons available (in this it beats two-weapon fighting hands-down), but still, 1d8 damage (you won't be getting too many bonuses at 1st or 2nd level, so I'm using an unmodified die roll here) isn't that great;
Manyshot: Ugh. As a rule, I hate taking attack penalties, so a feat that imparts such large ones is unappealing to me, but I guess that a -4 to double your damage (barring precision-based builds, which is big) is kind of comparable to Power Attack at low levels...
Shot on the Run: Only useful if you're in the lobby fight scene in the Matrix. Flat out. Running between pillars or other positions of cover while firing outside other people's turns so they can't fire back. And after a round or so of this, they'll just start holding actions. Well, I guess that's good for teamwork; if they're holding their actions against you, that's kind of like them all failing their saving throws against Daze or something. Great job; you got mass Daze, situationally, at 6th level.
Mounted Archery is fun, though running a horse too quickly will still impart attack penalties to you. I love the cavalry archer concept, although the utility of such a character can be limited in a dungeon crawl. On that note, if people were wondering why you can use composite longbows but not regular longbows while mounted, I believe it is because of traditions such as Japanese horse archery, which uses a very tall, asymmetrical bow.

Spells:
Keeping to core, we have a few magic weapon buffs, haste, true strike (Could you have a beer hat or something with potions so you can sip true strike potions without using an action?), flame arrow, keen edge, and maybe a few other things, which don't really give you that much, and there happens to be specifically a spell to make you useless.
If you have Arcane Archer, you can do a few cool things with the ability where an arrow's target is the target area of a spell, but even I think the caster level loss makes that a sour trade. (Can you use that with dimension door or teleport to make a given NPC immediately move to where you fired the arrow?)

Tactics:
Here's the big thing. Unlike a greatsword fighter, an archer is not automatically useless against an intelligently played dragon, nor against kobold snipers on the far side of a canyon, can kite slow melee enemies, and can avoid being kited in return. So at least your party is going to thank you for being there for the handful of times this sort of thing pops up, right?
No. Wizards. Most spells are ranged, and if a spell isn't, the wizard is going to find a way to make it ranged, because no one with a d4 hit die is going to use a melee touch spell if they can help it. The wizard, assuming they were expecting combat when they prepared spells this morning, will be able to carry the team in a ranged firefight. I guess you can draw fire from the wizard by being another potential threat, but you still aren't going to be that great.

[TheIronGolem]

I am increasingly of the opinion lately that Fighter should be split into melee-focused and ranged-focused classes. Call them Warrior and Marksman or something (yes, that means the NPC Warrior goes away or gets renamed, good riddance). Keep their proficiencies so they aren't totally helpless when caught at the wrong end of the range equation, but give them class features that focus on their preferred domain.

I see the Pathfinder Alchemist's bomb discoveries as a decent model for what such a ranged class should be able to do. "Trick Arrow" (bolt, bullet, whatever) abilities that let you add effects to your shots like AOE's, debuffs, and control effects.

Also, a lot of feats should be collapsed together, but of course that's true of more than just ranged feats.

[Worira]

I am increasingly of the opinion lately that Fighter should be split into melee-focused and ranged-focused classes. Call them Warrior and Marksman or something (yes, that means the NPC Warrior goes away or gets renamed, good riddance). Keep their proficiencies so they aren't totally helpless when caught at the wrong end of the range equation, but give them class features that focus on their preferred domain.

Hitting-Man and Shooting-Man, the two subclasses of Fighting-Man.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Archery is pretty bad.

It does much less damage per hit than melee, not just a little less. And suffers from 2-stat dependency.
Then there's the annoyance of having to match your str with the bow's, and god help you if you take 1 str damage.
Then there's the fact that melee can do many other things (and do them WELL) besides just damage. I think this is the biggest downside; spamming DPR every round is boring as hell.

But wait, there's more!
You provoke for shooting, every shot provokes.
Your full attack every round, yay! Wait, what's that? Barb 1 gives pounce?
Wind Wall automatically shuts you down completely.
Damage reduction screws you much worse than melee, between lower damage and lack of ranged PA.
Concealment and cover effects generally affect you worse; You can't even see anyone 10+ ft away in obscuring mist, and that's only a 1st level spell.
There's just so little support for it. There's ToB and tons of prestige classes to buff melee more. What's ranged get? OotBI is a trap; Cragtop is decent but only 4 levels; and...that's it. If you can get 3.0 added in, you get Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer and are a bit better off.

You spend a lot of resources and efforts just to deal with the damage problem, then you find that you can't do anything actually interesting. Any of the few options there are (the CW feats to do maneuvers w/ arrows, basically) all have horrible chances of working and give fewer benefits (Imp. Trip gives you a free attack, for example). Yeah, you're usually a lot safer by being far away. But it's a game, who cares? Monk can get really high saves, SR, and huge touch AC and in the process be no offensive threat whatsoever. The vast majority of people don't have a fun session by merely "not dying."

[Seerow]

There is also Piggy Knowles (did I spell that right?) archer build compilation thread.

Yeah, his thread is by far my favorite source for archery shenanigans. I hope he gets back to updating it eventually.

[Snowbluff]

Your full attack every round, yay! Wait, what's that? Barb 1 gives pounce?

Wind wall, difficult terrain. They're both two word phrases.
Rangers do more than barbarians, anyway.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wind wall, difficult terrain. They're both two word phrases.
Rangers do more than barbarians, anyway.

Flight is one word. And you can have a magic item, or be a dragonborn or a raptoran.

[Snowbluff]

Flight is one word. And you can have a magic item, or be a dragonborn or a raptoran.

Yeah, so you can fly around the wind wall, which is finite in size! Good point!

Your point isn't valid. I pointed out both have serious flaws, but both are equally flawed.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, his thread is by far my favorite source for archery shenanigans. I hope he gets back to updating it eventually.

I update it when I have something worth updating :smalltongue: I haven't put together any particularly novel ranged builds lately, so I haven't had much to add. I have been considering reformatting it for a while, and haven't gotten around to that, but I will one day, I suppose...

[nobodez]

I think the best part about archery is that you don't need three stats, just two (since Con isn't as important).

Of course, once again, Pathfinder made archery much better (Manyshot isn't borked, Vital Strike works at ranged, and there's a feat to combine your arrows for DR penetration). About the largest problem with archery is ammo (and there's really only magic to get around that).

Mind, Enlarge Person is still sub-optimal for archers (though reduce person becomes much better) because of the shrinkage (and de-shrinkage) of arrows after they're shot.

Hmm, I think I'll encourage my archer buddy to try reduce person combined with gravity bow in our pathfinder game.

[Snowbluff]

Of course, once again, Pathfinder made archery much better (Manyshot isn't borked, Vital Strike works at ranged, and there's a feat to combine your arrows for DR penetration). About the largest problem with archery is ammo (and there's really only magic to get around that).
3.5 has Hank's Energy Bow. You can shoot little force arrows when you run out of specialty rounds.

Now, the best thing about archery is the ammo. You can stack traits on your bow and your ammunition. Raptor Arrows are pretty sweet if you can grab them. Each round can be coated in poison, which is easy to grab if you have a pet or familiar. :smallsmile:


Hmm, I think I'll encourage my archer buddy to try reduce person combined with gravity bow in our pathfinder game.

That would be pretty cool.

[Darrin]

The real problem with archery is not low average/spike damage, Hank's Energy Bow, lousy feat support, etc. Even if you have the worst bow/arrow damage imaginable, that's still a "win" if you put yourself in a position where your opponent can't attack back.

95% of all encounters start with the combatants within 60' to 100' of each other. *That* is the problem with archery. At best, the archer gets a single round to attack targets that aren't engaged in melee yet, and then he's either in melee himself or plinking away at targets with cover.

There is no easy solution to this, because if you start combat at a range that's more realistic for archers, the melee players will be bored and frustrated.

Better encounter design might help, but at a more basic level, the combat system just wasn't really designed to operate at both 300' and 30'.

[Nihilarian]

Wind wall, difficult terrain. They're both two word phrases.
Rangers do more than barbarians, anyway.Note that you can combine a charge with a jump check and not have to deal with difficult terrain. In fact, that's the optimized method because of the Leap Attack feat increasing damage.

[Snowbluff]

Note that you can combine a charge with a jump check and not have to deal with difficult terrain. In fact, that's the optimized method because of the Leap Attack feat increasing damage.

I think I should point out that this is common knowledge. You've seen me around. You know I know this stuff. Both problems are solvable in their own ways.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think I should point out that this is common knowledge. You've seen me around. You know I know this stuff. Both problems are solvable in their own ways.

(I think the new avatar might be confusing people)

[Nihilarian]

I think I should point out that this is common knowledge. You've seen me around. You know I know this stuff. Both problems are solvable in their own ways.I had no idea you knew that. Good to know.

Regardless, it's a lot easier to bypass difficult terrain.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I had no idea you knew that. Good to know.

Regardless, it's a lot easier to bypass difficult terrain.

Leap Attack, skill tricks, level 1 setting sun stance, flight.... Yes, there are a ton of ways to not care about difficult terrain for charging.

Wind Wall your *only* option to shoot arrows through it is to "get around" it (might not be a viable option depending on the surroundings, or the foe could circle around the other way and just play tag with you) or to dispel it.

[Deophaun]

Both problems are solvable in their own ways.
One is solvable at level 1 with skill point investment.

The other is solvable much later by using feat slots to lock you into Manyshot, plus getting the necessary speed and making sure you're fighting on open terrain in a game where "Dungeons" is in the title.

I'm not sure how we can pretend both sides suffer.

[HunterOfJello]

Given a mid to high level of optimization anything can be viable in 3.5 . There are many threads about chicken-infested optimization and how to turn classes from Tier 6 to Tier 3 or 4.

That doesn't change the fact that chicken-infested is a bad flaw and that archery generally sucks in the 3.5 version of d&d. New players who are interested in playing an archer type character who shoots enemies with a bow at a distance like Legolas will have a bad time unless someone holds their hands and takes them through all of the optimization steps necessary to go from sucking to doing decent damage.

[Snowbluff]

(I think the new avatar might be confusing people)Yeah, probably.


I had no idea you knew that. Good to know.

Regardless, it's a lot easier to bypass difficult terrain.

You could walk through a windwall.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, things that impede movement are a lot more common than wind wall, in my experience. And things that impede movement (note: NOT just difficult terrain) can't always be jumped over, sometimes for the same reason that an archer can't merely fly over a wind wall - those pesky ceilings!

Finally, the clear path requirement means that, where an archer can often pick and choose her targets, a charger frequently only has one or two viable targets for charging in any given combat.

[Incanur]

Archery is pretty bad in a dungeon. I think this largely accounts for 3.x archery's poor reputation.

[Spore]

Why do people always compare DPR when the disadvantage from melee over ranged is CLEARLY the fact that you cannot always stand next to your target of choice?

A well played archer is a threat to every T1 caster weaving its magics. And I am not talking about the paranoid Tippyesque "I have cast 24 spells on contingency" type of wizard.

[Nihilarian]

Why do people always compare DPR when the disadvantage from melee over ranged is CLEARLY the fact that you cannot always stand next to your target of choice?

A well played archer is a threat to every T1 caster weaving its magics. And I am not talking about the paranoid Tippyesque "I have cast 24 spells on contingency" type of wizard.The current argument is about Wind Wall, so I'm not sure where you're getting DPR from. And no, a well played archer is probably not going to be a threat to every well played tier 1 caster. If they're really good, the archer should threaten some well played tier 1 casters.

There are other ways to mess with archers, but Wind Wall is low level and explicitly designed to stop archers, so people tend to focus on it.