So why can't anyone EVER make a Fort save against Miko's Stunning Fist?

[Puck]

Is it just the law of Natural 1's, or what?

Just wondering.

:smallamused:

[Counterpower]

Undoubtedly, it's because the Giant doesn't want anyone to succeed at their save.

[Raxtenko]

Because teh save is so high? And Roy's fort save is weak at any rate.

[Lord Zentei]

Because teh save is so high? And Roy's fort save is weak at any rate.

It is? I thought it would be his best, since he is a Fighter, and all that...

Anyway: the DC for Stunning Fist: (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier).

Going by the minimum Wisdom to use the Feat (13) and Miko's supposed character level (16 - unproven), that would mean a DC of 19, which is pretty high.

[Alfryd]

Miko is most likely level 16, with wis 14. So, DC 20. But Roy is minimum level 12, so fort +8, and I'd give him a con 14, for +10 to fort saves. It could happen.

[Twilight Jack]

But I believe Giant has mentioned somewhere that Roy has a slightly subpar Constitution for a Fighter. So maybe it's closer to the 10-12 range?

So if Miko's a level 16 character, and has a Wisdom of 14-16, then that's a DC of 20-21.

Roy's rolling in the +8 to +10 range, so the odds are slightly against him.

[Lial Swiftlight]

Because the plot requires they fail their saves.


And here I thought stunning fist required a will save... guess you learn something new every day, huh?

[Roderick_BR]

Law of plot devices :p
If he had succeeded, he wouldn't be able to make that joke, and wouldn't stop Miko from running head on into Belkar.

heh, I was just thinking about it. I'm impressed no one complained she used her foot to use stunning fist =P (that she can use, since Unarmed Strike means hitting with any part of your body)

[Alfryd]

Because the plot requires they fail their saves.
Huh. So Miko *does* occasionally catch a break.
Assuming that she wouldn't be better off imprisoned until Hinjo and Durkon can talk some sense into her.

[Talyn]

I concur. A storytelling GM is well within his bounds to have the PCs suffer a -15 Plot penalty to all saving throws that might prevent the antagonist to escaping.

[edit] "Antagonist" is better than "villain" in this case, because Miko isn't the story's bad guy.

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Simple question, simple answer. If they DID make a fort save at least once, Miko would be long dead by now.


And about Miko not being the "bad guy", well, there are some who would think she's much worse than Xykon.

[TinSoldier]

[edit] "Antagonist" is better than "villain" in this case, because Miko isn't the story's bad guy.I'm starting to doubt that.

She was an antagonist. She is shifting into the villain column and she is a more serious (if not as dangerous) of a villain than Nale or Xykon.

Anyway, I agree. It's for the sake of plot.

[Alfryd]

If they DID make a fort save at least once, Miko would be long dead by now.
I you're referring to the second fight description and Rich's will save flub, it would be easy enough to tweak things like initiative order or Durkon being more conservative with healing spells to re-tune the balance in Miko's favour.

[Toxic Avenger]

Anyway: the DC for Stunning Fist: (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier).

Going by the minimum Wisdom to use the Feat (13) and Miko's supposed character level (16 - unproven), that would mean a DC of 19, which is pretty high.IIRC, she doesn't need to have a Wisdom of 13 or greater to use the feat, since it was a bonus feat from her first Monk level (please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have access to the SRD at the moment).


So if Miko's a level 16 character, and has a Wisdom of 14-16, then that's a DC of 20-21.Many may disagree with me, but I don't think she has a Wisdom score of 16, or even 14. I don't remember ever seeing her cast a Paladin spell (once again, please correct me if I'm wrong), and her actions as of late demonstrate a Wisdom of 8 or less.

[Steward]

Miko's Stunning Fist is kind of cool, actually, since she can apparently make her feet into a 'fist'.

[Krellen]

IIRC, she doesn't need to have a Wisdom of 13 or greater to use the feat, since it was a bonus feat from her first Monk level (please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have access to the SRD at the moment).
That is correct.


Many may disagree with me, but I don't think she has a Wisdom score of 16, or even 14. I don't remember ever seeing her cast a Paladin spell (once again, please correct me if I'm wrong), and her actions as of late demonstrate a Wisdom of 8 or less.
When Mr. Burlew outlined the fight that ended with the OotS in chains, he mentioned Miko casting Cure Light Wounds on herself. Ergo, she has a Wisdom of at least 11. However, I highly doubt it is in the high teens.

[atteSmythe]

Heh. Never allow flavor text to get in the way of the mechanics. All it requires is an unarmed strike.

[Lord Zentei]

Miko's Stunning Fist is kind of cool, actually, since she can apparently make her feet into a 'fist'.

It doesn't actually have to be a fist, any "unarmed attack" will do.

Using her foot would be an advantage, since she doesn't have to drop her katana that way.

[Raxtenko]

It is? I thought it would be his best, since he is a Fighter, and all that...

Anyway: the DC for Stunning Fist: (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier).

Going by the minimum Wisdom to use the Feat (13) and Miko's supposed character level (16 - unproven), that would mean a DC of 19, which is pretty high.

Well what I meant was that his Fort. save isn't that great. He's failed some saves that he shouldn't have had problems with being a fighter.

[Teh_Jakester]

It doesn't actually have to be a fist, any "unarmed attack" will do.

Using her foot would be an advantage, since she doesn't have to drop her katana that way.

:smallconfused: But she has TWO hands and ONE katana...
And she wields it in one hand alot.

[Alfryd]

...her actions as of late demonstrate a Wisdom of 8 or less.
They've ALWAYS demonstrated a cha of 13-. Nonetheless, it is 16+.
And yes, cha does visibly affect your course of action. It is ostensibly a MENTAL attribute.

[Lord Zentei]

:smallconfused: But she has TWO hands and ONE katana...
And she wields it in one hand alot.

Yeah, I guess she has just trained to use it as a kick in case she is weilding her wakisashi. And now it's force of habit.

Just a speculation, of course, but it rather makes sense, right?

[Alfryd]

But she has TWO hands and ONE katana...
Actually, a good smack to Roy's lower jaw would have been rather satisfying to watch.
'Stop!'
*smack*
'Talking!'

[Yzorth]

Ya, that math seems okay. So... shrug. I'd say you could flip a coin to find out if he made his save or not.

So, Rich just put it the way he wanted it to be since the odds were about 50-50.

[Raxtenko]

Eh. Boot to the face has a higher chance of knocking some of his choppers loose.

[Silkenfist]

Huh. So Miko *does* occasionally catch a break.
Assuming that she wouldn't be better off imprisoned...

Preferably not in the cell next to the Belkar illusion.

:belkar:: *Comment on lack of usefulness, realism or intelligence of Paladins*
:miko:: Aaaaargh! I will kill you with my bare hands, once I have smashed through this wall, you evil pile of dirt.
:belkar:: *Generic suggestion to pursue sexual intercourse more often*

[Alfryd]

So, Rich just put it the way he wanted it to be since the odds were about 50-50.
Oh, trust me, if the odds were 90-10 and he wanted the underdog to prevail, he'd arrange it. Roy vs. Xykon and Miko vs. Belkar (Bitterleaf didn't exactly prevail, but he *survived*,) spring to mind.

"Love the Sin, Love the Sinner, Love Miko."
I like that!

[Toxic Avenger]

They've ALWAYS demonstrated a cha of 13-. Nonetheless, it is 16+.
And yes, cha does visibly affect your course of action. It is ostensibly a MENTAL attribute.Charisma is force of personality, of which Miko seems to have in abundance.

But good judgement is in the realm of Wisdom, of which she seems to have very little.

[Alfryd]

Charisma is force of personality, of which Miko seems to have in abundance.
Oh, great sweet Lords of Kobol. Here we go again.
If I was forced to summarise charisma in a fashion that was actually *testable*, I would say 'leet people skillz.'
Actually, that's a complete lie. I would *never* say 'leet'.
But name one single solitary occasion on which Miko has demonstrated the ability to pursuade people to do what they weren't inclined or obliged to do in the first place? Or has demonstrated tact, delicacy and finesse in negotiation?
It's in the same category as belkar's ostensible 10+ wisdom score needed to account for his scroll use with owl's wisdom. Does not Compute.

But good judgement is in the realm of Wisdom...
Can't argue with that, (though I'd reckon this is partly due to misinformation and mental duress on her part.) But we do know she has a positive wis modifier (thanks to Belkar's tracking argument,) so 12+ anyways.

[Gerrtt]

It is? I thought it would be his best, since he is a Fighter, and all that...

Anyway: the DC for Stunning Fist: (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier).

Going by the minimum Wisdom to use the Feat (13) and Miko's supposed character level (16 - unproven), that would mean a DC of 19, which is pretty high.

Considering earlier in the strip he was poisoned 17 times at once I would say his fort save isn't the best, even if he is a fighter.

[Demented]

Miko would need a wisdom of 12 to cast Cure Light Wounds.

Anyway, the save DC would probably be at least 19 (wis 12), because Miko is so much higher level than Roy. His fort save isn't higher than +8. Not counting the OOTS standard save chart (Protagonists don't succeed saves, NPCs do), he wouldn't have had much chance.

Perhaps the more curious thing is her getting through his AC.

[Alfryd]

His fort save isn't higher than +8.
I would still be shocked if he lacked a positive con modifier.

Perhaps the more curious thing is her getting through his AC.
Her BAB is perfectly respectable, and Roy isn't decked with full plate.

[Lord Zentei]

Miko would need a wisdom of 12 to cast Cure Light Wounds.

Heh, given the speculations on her low Wisdom, this may be the reason we haven't seen her use any of her spell abilities at all throughout the strip.


Perhaps the thing she needed all along was an "Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)" casting from Vaarsuvius. ;)

[Callista]

If Miko tried a Stunning Fist and failed, it would just look like a normal punch. So we only see the ones that succeed.

[Karkadinn]

Oh, great sweet Lords of Kobol. Here we go again.
If I was forced to summarise charisma in a fashion that was actually *testable*, I would say 'leet people skillz.'

So you're arguing that the Player's Handbook is wrong in its definition of Charisma? :smallbiggrin:
Having a high stat doesn't mean you have to use the bonuses of that stat in every situation. You can have a Strength of 30 and intentionally give yourself a zero modifier in a Strength contest to lose on purpose. Or in Miko's case, not use the modifiers from your Charisma to be persuasive because you think persuasion is for wusses.

[Lord Zentei]

If Miko tried a Stunning Fist and failed, it would just look like a normal punch. So we only see the ones that succeed.

You have a point. That is probably it.

...

But that's no fun! It allows for no analysis, damn it all! :smalltongue:

[Raxtenko]

Wait. Nevermind. I just realized I was being silly.

[Demented]

I can't remember a time when she used an unarmed attack that wasn't a successful Stunning Fist. My ailing memory...

[Igan]

Actually, she needs to use it more often...as far as I know, she's only used it on Haley (Rogue: Good Reflex, poor Fort and Will) and Roy (Who seems to be unlucky with his Fort saves).
If you look at the OotS as an actual RPed DnD game, I can easily explain Roy failing fortitude saves with an anecdote:
Okay, I one time RPed a Swashbuckler who, through lucky stat rolls and a racial modifier, had a Dex of +5. At second level, his BAB was +2, and his amazing dex gave him +7 on attack.
Sounds pretty good, right?
Well, yeah. But it turned out Corin had an Aura of Suck, an amazing defense ability to cause everyone in 400 ft + 200 per character level get really, really crappy rolls. This had the unfortunate side effect of making him suck, too. But less than his enemies.
The DM dubbed him the Suckbuckler...

Reason for the anecdote:
You never know how you luck's going to go.

[Alfryd]

Perhaps the thing she needed all along was an "Owls Wisdom" casting from Vaarsuvius. ;)
That could be a riot. I'll have to ponder that, frankly.
It already seems that Halfing Rangers are colour-coded for your convenience. Hmm.


So you're arguing that the Player's Handbook is wrong in its definition of Charisma?
Basically. Actually- while we're at it- can we examine this whole 'class and level' business?

Or in Miko's case, not use the modifiers from your Charisma to be persuasive because you think persuasion is for wusses.
Actually, she's tried pursuading people to come round to her viewpoint on a number of occasions, and failed miserably. Even if she has a character so steely you could use it mold horseshoes, it can't entirely compensate for the panalties evidenced.

[Yzorth]

Ya, that math seems okay. So... shrug. I'd say you could flip a coin to find out if he made his save or not.

So, Rich just put it the way he wanted it to be since the odds were about 50-50.

[Krellen]

Considering earlier in the strip he was poisoned 17 times at once I would say his fort save isn't the best, even if he is a fighter.
Fort is Roy's best save - but that's not saying much. He's a Fighter; saves all in the single digits, even at 13th level, isn't wholly unusual (absent Cloaks of Resistance; OotSland seems to be lower magic than standard D&D, though.)

[Lord Zentei]

Considering earlier in the strip he was poisoned 17 times at once I would say his fort save isn't the best, even if he is a fighter.

Yeah, but how many poisoned traps did he set off at once there?

EDIT: According to Xykon, there were "like, 100 traps (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html)" there, so 17 failed saves doesn't neccesarily mean much.

[Fighteer]

Basically. Actually- while we're at it- can we examine this whole 'class and level' business?
Can we not, and say we did? :smallwink: Then we could all go play an RPG system that is not D&D...


Actually, she's tried pursuading people to come round to her viewpoint on a number of occasions, and failed miserably. Even if she has a character so steely you could use it mold horseshoes, it can't entirely compensate for the panalties evidenced.
Apparently the stick up her ass gives her a very high circumstance penalty to all of her Diplomacy checks.


Fort is Roy's best save - but that's not saying much. He's a Fighter; saves all in the single digits, even at 13th level, isn't wholly unusual (absent Cloaks of Resistance; OotSland seems to be lower magic than standard D&D, though.)
I've read elsewhere that Roy's Constitution score is lower than you'd expect for a fighter. It almost has to be, else he'd be very overpowered stats-wise compared to the rest of the party. A very low Con bonus, or even (gasp) penalty, would greatly explain his ability to fail Fortitude saves on a regular basis.

[Demented]

Actually, she's tried pursuading people to come round to her viewpoint on a number of occasions, and failed miserably. Even if she has a character so steely you could use it mold horseshoes, it can't entirely compensate for the panalties evidenced.

But has she used her charisma, in those instances?

[Golt]

Apparently the stick up her ass gives her a very high circumstance penalty to all of her Diplomacy checks.


That, or she simply doesn't have a single rank in any charisma-related skill. That would give her a lousy +4 (probably) modifier to skill checks. In that situation she could easily fail the checks and still be a person who leaves strong impression (whether good or bad) on other people.

[Tadpole]

I thought in the Giant's description he repeatedly referred to Miko's Stunning Kick as requiring a Will save.

Edit: yeah... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639&highlight=%22partial+charge%22#post291639

[atteSmythe]

I really like that reading of the rules, Golt.

[Karkadinn]

Basically. Actually- while we're at it- can we examine this whole 'class and level' business?

Would you be offended if I wondered 'aloud' why you're not reading a different comic if you hate the entire basis of the D&D system? :smallwink: Next thing you'll start criticizing the *gasp* 20-sided die!
I've played rpg that adequately dispensed with classes, but I've never seen one that ditched levels that did a good job of it. The regular, concrete reward ladder is psychologically enjoyable and that's why it gets used so much in game design.



Actually, she's tried pursuading people to come round to her viewpoint on a number of occasions, and failed miserably. Even if she has a character so steely you could use it mold horseshoes, it can't entirely compensate for the panalties evidenced.

Okay, I did phrase that improperly I admit... yes, she's tried to persuade people to come around to her pov, but my intended point is that she never really gave it her all because of her personal mental block. She could do better if she wanted to, it's not like she has difficulty with using words eloquently as such. She just don't wanna. It's like a swordsman addicted to using wooden swords instead of steel ones... doesn't mean he's any less skilled a swordsman, he's just got issues that prevent him from using the heights of his abilities.
Although honestly, I can totally see where you're coming from, too. If I were the Giant I would have let her win an argument or two by now just to point out that she does, in fact, have a good Charisma, because it's kind of natural to assume she doesn't when she fails at Diplomacy every single time.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Given Miko's likely low Reflex save (I doubt she was a Monk for long), she can't have a poor Charisma. Hell, given the sheer amount of magic she's resisted through saving throws, her Charisma is likely pretty high for the bonuses associated with Divine Grace. We know she can use Lay On Hands, which automatically puts her at a 12... and given that she had enough to offer Roy some after the fight with the Ogres, I'm willing to bet it's at least a +2 bonus (which makes it at least a 14).

[Steward]

It doesn't actually have to be a fist, any "unarmed attack" will do.

Using her foot would be an advantage, since she doesn't have to drop her katana that way.

Then why not just call it 'Stunning Strike'?

[Orzel]

The targets of Miko's SA were

Haley (Rogues poor base fort and Con isn't a priority)
and Roy (With a Str of 18, and Positive !nt, Wis, AND Cha, his Con and Dex are no more than 10 most likely)

With Miko's SA DC near or past 20, both of them had maybe a 40-50% of making the save,

[Alfryd]

But has she used her charisma, in those instances?
I can think of no conceivable reason not to. besides, Charisma isn't just something you apply like a tool, it is also a mental faculty which allows you make better guesses about how to approach people. It is a MENTAL attribute. It helps you make decisions, of a sort.

...she never really gave it her all because of her personal mental block.
Gosh, how would we represent such a mental block in game terms..? An, uh, penalty of some kind, to, ah... I dunno, an attribute, related to... people skills? What do people with people skills have..? Whatchcallit- charm- CHARISMA! YES! We'll call it charisma, and attach a suitable penalty for being an emotionally repressed virago.

Although honestly, I can totally see where you're coming from, too...
Oh. Sorry. I may have come off a little strong.

I'm willing to bet it's at least a +2 bonus (which makes it at least a 14).
Mechanically, 16+. Characteristically, 13-.