Monk Tweaks

[Blackhawk748]

No this isnt quite one of those threads, though it kinda is. I was thinking of making some changes to the Monk for a Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign, making them more religiously oriented as well as more Martial.

Here are the changes i was thinking of:

Full BaB
Proficiency with their Deities Favored Weapon as well as using their more favorable number of attacks with the weapon as well as their increased damage.
Increased AC bonus (not sure how i would go about doing this)

Restrictions
Monks must choose a Deity to emulate and their Alignment must be within one step of their Deity's.

The reason behind this changes is because the Monk is THIS close to having outsider HD and because they are supposed be religious. While Clerics attempt to emulate their deities magical powers, Monks attempt to emulate their deities physical capabilities, thus finally explaining their increased speed and extra attacks.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe like the Swordsage, they get to keep their abilities and their AC in light armor? Maybe I just like how light armor looks in artwork however.

[The Insanity]

I combine Monk with Swordsage.

[Blackhawk748]

I think im gonna copy the Swordsage and let them wear Light Armor, no real reason why they shouldnt.

[Petrocorus]

Full BAB, of course, and better Flurry of Blow concordingly with it.
Lesser version of flurry of blow as standard action.
Ability to pounce at some point.
No limitation of uses per day of Stunning Fist.
Make the speed bonus an unnamed bonus or better, not a bonus but a real increase of the natural speed.
Improves the Ki Strike. Like Mindblade but better.
Several abilities should be Ex
AC bonus in light armor.
Wis as a bonus to hit and damage.

[turkishproverb]

Earlier Tongue of sun and moon.

at a certain level, body can receive weapon enchantments, at another (higher or lower) can also receive armor enchantments.

[Blackhawk748]

Full BAB, of course, and better Flurry of Blow concordingly with it.
Lesser version of flurry of blow as standard action.
Ability to pounce at some point.
No limitation of uses per day of Stunning Fist.
Make the speed bonus an unnamed bonus or better, not a bonus but a real increase of the natural speed.
Improves the Ki Strike. Like Mindblade but better.
Several abilities should be Ex
AC bonus in light armor.
Wis as a bonus to hit and damage.


This, this is wonderful, im probably gonna use most of this

[turkishproverb]

Not sure I'm a fan of requiring a deity for the monk, but I do see why you did it. Maybe use the Cleric system, where having a deity has it's own extra bonuses like the weapon proficiency, but isn't required?

Also, given the way the "monk" archetype is shown mostly, I might make them an exception to the "one step" protocol and keep them all lawful.

[Anxe]

Flight at level 9 or 10? Fits the theme just like favored soul and fixes that part of monks as well.

Bigger HD or no? The d8 seems fine to me, but a d10 would reduce the need for a high Con which just makes monks MAD problems worse.

[Petrocorus]

Give them class features that progressively make them SADder and SADder. With Wis to AC at level 1; to hit, to damage at level 2 or 3 and later to HP, and to Fort or/and Ref.

[Blackhawk748]

I was seriously considering having Wis to damage at like lvl 10 as it was going to be on top of Str to damage, also i was gonna add Wis mod to their number of Stunning Fist attempts per day.

@Anxe i was thinking of replacing Feather Fall with a few rounds of flight, wasnt sure how many to start with. Maybe Wis mod +3 rnds per day?

@turkishproverb Im doing it just like clerics, feel free to can the idea, i just kinda like a religious themed monk as WotC kinda tried to make them that way, but kinda failed miserably. Also a Monk of Gruumsh Flurry-ing with a Greataxe is a terrifying image.

[Anxe]

That amount of flight sounds right if it doesn't need to all be at once. One round here, one round there. You can always tweek that later if it doesn't feel like the right amount. Wis to fort and ref sounds a bit strong. They've already got high saves in each. It does jive with the Paladin ability though which is a different type of holy warrior.

Course, now we have a different issue with all these bonuses. Why would someone play a barbarian if this type of monk is an option?

[NoACWarrior]

Full BAB, of course, and better Flurry of Blow concordingly with it.
Lesser version of flurry of blow as standard action.
Ability to pounce at some point.
No limitation of uses per day of Stunning Fist.
Make the speed bonus an unnamed bonus or better, not a bonus but a real increase of the natural speed.
Improves the Ki Strike. Like Mindblade but better.
Several abilities should be Ex
AC bonus in light armor.
Wis as a bonus to hit and damage.


I wouldn't object to many of the changes from your list - except the unlimited stunning. Stunning, while kind of weak in scope, is strong against creatures not immune to it, and its quite easy to buff it to high DC levels. Plus, all the feats relying on stunning would get a free pass to use infinitely (not like they are that great). If the OP is OK with that notion, then this is definitely an improvement worth having. Just be prepared for infinite ki blasts OoC to destroy a mountain, or infinite freezing the life blood to paralyze entire sets of monsters.

If I were to redo the stunning I'd make it so that if it was successful, it is used, but if unsuccessful the stunning attempt remains unused. I'd also make it so that the stunning attempt applies to all attacks on that turn until discharged on the first successful attempt.

[Anxe]

I wouldn't object to many of the changes from your list - except the unlimited stunning. Stunning, while kind of weak in scope, is strong against creatures not immune to it, and its quite easy to buff it to high DC levels. Plus, all the feats relying on stunning would get a free pass to use infinitely (not like they are that great). If the OP is OK with that notion, then this is definitely an improvement worth having. Just be prepared for infinite ki blasts OoC to destroy a mountain, or infinite freezing the life blood to paralyze entire sets of monsters.

If I were to redo the stunning I'd make it so that if it was successful, it is used, but if unsuccessful the stunning attempt remains unused. I'd also make it so that the stunning attempt applies to all attacks on that turn until discharged on the first successful attempt.

I'd had the same worry when reading that, but forgot about it. I actually think Stunning Fist is fine as is, but if you want a buff NoACWarrior's is better in my opinion.

[PsyBomb]

Remember for the following that I'm starting from the PF version, and always allow Quinggong variant.

1) Change Flurry to also work with standard-action attacks. That is my "pounce equivalent" version, and emphasizes a combat role as a skirmisher. Since this effectively makes the class full-BAB (remember, PF version), we make that change.

2) I also give AC bonus in Light Armor (along with proficiency in it), since not being able to not only cuts down early AC but also denies the ability to get armor enhancement.

3) I usually also allow them to get masterwork gloves both enchanted and "studded" with choice materials, either as a pair (same cost as one weapon) or individually (same cost as two weapons). Doing this allows Ki Strike progression to remain as-is,.

4) Wis to Atk/Dmg is critical (I give it at one, at the same time as the AC bonus). That one change by itself makes the class go from an unacceptable 4-stat dependence to a much more doable three (Wis>Dex=Con).

That set of changes is enough to make them to T4. To bring them up to T3 takes more work, essentially a sit-down rewrite of half of their abilities along with an increase to 6 skill points per level. I have done so in the past, and they play well once they do so (granted, that particular campaign was mostly comedy based on Kung Fu Hustle...). The short version:

-Slow Fall starts off granting Feather Fall (self), eventually becoming flight for 3+Wis (rounds/minutes/hours) per day as you progress and permanent at 20.
-Wholeness of Body becomes a Move, then Swift action.
-Abundant Step allows 1/turn move half your speed as a Swift action for 1 Ki, not allowing AoOs
-Tongue of the Sun and Moon comes online earlier, as does Empty Body.
-Perfect Self doesn't change type, just grants DR and immunity to mind-affecting and polymorph (with the note that it can be lowered at will)

[Phelix-Mu]

Infinite stunning is mainly problematic for someone that picks up the feats that make it good, namely Pain Touch and Pharaoh's Fist. An unlimited, two round debuff on a bunch of adjacent targets is probably too strong.

For me, the normal limit is fine. If that's problematic, change it to Wis mod/encounter and call it a day. In practice, I usually find it most useful when sneaking around a town among targets that almost certainly can't make the save, but whom my character doesn't want to splatter all over the cobblestones.

To plug my other monk tweaks:

1.) Full BAB and Wis to hit (and perhaps damage) right off the bat. Make sure the monk can actually hit things and reduce the MAD involving Str. A more ambitious fix allows the monk to use the better of Dex, Int, or Wis for this, allowing monks of various archetypes (and allowing the monk to better emulate a variety of fighting styles).

2.) Monk can move 1/2 movement speed as a swift action every round. My monks usually have some swift actions to spare, and this simple change massively improves the monk's utility as a skirmisher and tactical movement character. This also fixes the problem with no FoB and move, without making FoB a standard action (which always seemed very strong to me).

3.) Brains Over Brawn-style class feature for Wisdom. Like the Factotum class feature, this would allow the monk to add their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to all Str and Dex-based skill checks and checks (including combat maneuvers like grapple, trip, disarm, and the rolls to resist such). This helps ameliorate the problem with many monks dumping Intelligence and therefor lacking the skill points necessary to do monk-ish things. I also heavily consider increasing skill points to 6+Int, but usually only if full BAB isn't part of the package. (I do love me a skill monkey.)

[Deadline]

Granting the Pounce ability while making a Flurry of Blows might be a nice touch.

[Phelix-Mu]

Granting the Pounce ability while making a Flurry of Blows might be a nice touch.

Pounce on a full BaB monk with a sacred weapon and standard action FoB will pretty much make a bunch of those monks better than barbarians in pretty much every way other than soaking damage, which isn't going to matter because they will likely have better AC and will kill the enemy in one round.

Pounce always seemed like overkill to me, and I always pictured monks more skirmishers than chargers. But it would certainly make them stronger (especially once the FoB penalties go away). I instituted my 1/2 movement speed as swift action to emulate a kind of mini-Pounce that would work in a similar fashion without stealing the barbarian's thunder.

[Deadline]

Pounce on a full BaB monk with a sacred weapon and standard action FoB will pretty much make a bunch of those monks better than barbarians in pretty much every way other than soaking damage, which isn't going to matter because they will likely have better AC and will kill the enemy in one round.

Sorry, I should have clarified. Pounce during a FoB on the regular medium BAB monk. The idea being to make those two abilities work with what appears to be the theme of their abilities (let them get multiple attacks off while still remaining highly mobile).

[Gavinfoxx]

First of all, have you seen this?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[Blackhawk748]

I have not, and i like it, though i think ill still make my version, may call it something else though