what good is reverse gravity?

[graeylin]

In a typical dungeon, is the spell any good at all?

You send someone ten foot to the ceiling. So what? Is that it? They land on the ceiling, stand "up", walk to the edge of the spell, and fall to the floor, safe and unharmed?

Is this just a waste of a 7th 8th level spell (edited, thanks Eggyknack, for catching that) to cause a BBEG to lose his move action for the round?

I was hoping that the whole "If an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, until the spell ends" was more than fluff text, and it meant they actually stayed there, floating, but DM insists they just walk away.

[Gavinfoxx]

Put a Gate on top, or cast it in the big rooms... or do stuff, you know outside of dungeons?

[graeylin]

be happy to, but as a player, I don't get to chose the settings.

And our DM doesn't allow gate spells, summon spells, teleport spells, etc..

[Gavinfoxx]

be happy to, but as a player, I don't get to chose the settings.

And our DM doesn't allow gate spells, summon spells, teleport spells, etc..

So what Wizard Conjuration spells DOES he allow?

And are you playing World's Largest Dungeon?

[TuggyNE]

I was hoping that the whole "If an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, until the spell ends" was more than fluff text, and it meant they actually stayed there, floating, but DM insists they just walk away.

Assuming you're using it in an area in which they can, indeed, float in the middle of the air and the DM is still insisting this, the DM is quite wrong. Given the apparent scope of bannings, this seems not implausible.

[georgie_leech]

In your circumstance then, it's probably best to switch spells. Reverse Gravity can trap targets, but only if they don't have something to push off of; your average dungeon ceiling gives them that leverage. Not every spell is appropriate in every situation.

Well, except maybe Polymorph et al.

[eggynack]

be happy to, but as a player, I don't get to chose the settings.
Well, sure, but you are occasionally aware of your setting before prepping spells. If you never fight outside of a dungeon, then maybe you should use a different spell. Different spells are useful in different places.


And our DM doesn't allow gate spells, summon spells, teleport spells, etc..
Well, there's always prismatic sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm). However, you're kinda acting like the spell is useless because it's worse in your campaign. Just as spells are sometimes better or worse in particular settings, so too are they sometimes better or worse in particular games.

[Invader]

The biggest thing it seems like people forget is that there is an effective area. A lot of times people just work under the assumption that 1 casting will launch people off into space.

Personally I think it's a bit overrated unless it's used with plenty of preparation time to set up some of the aforementioned tricks.

[Zanos]

They only raise to the top of the area of the spell. That can be as low as 10 feet, since the spell gives you shapeable 10 foot cubes.

If something can't fly or has inadequate ranged attacks, reverse gravity can be a no save, no SR, no attack roll, AoE disabled until dead spell.

It's not always amazingly effective, but when it is, you just push2win.

[graeylin]

Well, sure, but you are occasionally aware of your setting before prepping spells. If you never fight outside of a dungeon, then maybe you should use a different spell. Different spells are useful in different places.


Well, there's always prismatic sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm). However, you're kinda acting like the spell is useless because it's worse in your campaign. Just as spells are sometimes better or worse in particular settings, so too are they sometimes better or worse in particular games.

Yup, being prepared is always nice. However, our goal this time was "find and neutralize seven high level BBEG's, scattered around a city ten square miles in size, in one day (literally, within 24 hours). Bring them all down before they unleash a bunch of demons into the world by completing their rituals."

Prismatic sphere is nice, if I could cast arcane spells, I might well have chosen it. I can't, so it's not an option.

I did choose to have reverse gravity, because it seemed to be a nice spell with no Spell Resistance, just in case, you know, some of those nasty bad guys had SR, or SR mooks (like golems, which they do). I guess I was just reading too much into the words/description of the spell.

[Urpriest]

Yup, being prepared is always nice. However, our goal this time was "find and neutralize seven high level BBEG's, scattered around a city ten square miles in size, in one day (literally, within 24 hours). Bring them all down before they unleash a bunch of demons into the world by completing their rituals."

Prismatic sphere is nice, if I could cast arcane spells, I might well have chosen it. I can't, so it's not an option.

I did choose to have reverse gravity, because it seemed to be a nice spell with no Spell Resistance, just in case, you know, some of those nasty bad guys had SR, or SR mooks (like golems, which they do). I guess I was just reading too much into the words/description of the spell.

To be fair, as others have pointed out, many rooms will be more than 10 feet in height, and since the area is shapeable that's all you need.

[Gavinfoxx]

If the dungeon is 20' high, cast a 10' square of it per person, and if they can't fly, they just bob there...

[graeylin]

Yup, I used it in the wrong place, and believed the spell wording. I'd hoped the lack of SR and save would be good too. Dang it.

*sigh*

still, it was one of the two best 7th level spells I could have chosen, I just should have prepped Sunbeam instead.

[Hiro Quester]

it can also be used to help your party get across treacherous or trapped areas.

Fall ten feet to the ceiling, walk across the ceiling above the pit, lava, pool of acid etc., then fall back to the floor on the other side.

[Draken]

Yup, I used it in the wrong place, and believed the spell wording. I'd hoped the lack of SR and save would be good too. Dang it.

*sigh*

still, it was one of the two best 7th level spells I could have chosen, I just should have prepped Sunbeam instead.

Sunbeam? If you are a druid Reverse Gravity is an 8th level spell, not 7th.

Either way. Wind Walk is an excellent 7th level spell you could have prepared as a druid. As is Heal.

[Mutazoia]

Reverse Gravity can:


Be used as an interrupt. Mr. Wizard will lose a round as he suddenly finds himself floating.
Be used as an attack. Float them in the air, then drop them.
Be used to guard against a charge/bull rush. Set it in front of you and watch the charger fly...
Get you over trapped floors. Why jump the pit when you can walk on the ceiling.
Mess up missile attacks. The trajectory of arrows, rocks, etc are all affected by gravity. If gravity is off, so is the aim.
Get your entire party up to a ledge/balcony that's too high to jump to. It's Spider climb for the whole family!
Mess up Flying creatures. Wings push against gravity, if gravity is suddenly reversed, wings slam things into the ground.
Really annoy creatures that use "drop" attacks (Piercers/Lurker's above) "Watch this...I'm going to drop on his head!" NOT.
Screw with thieves. Nothing like going to pick a lock and suddenly finding your self diving head first into the ceiling.
Make a great trap. Put the spike filled pit on the ceiling. If you want to be extra nasty, make the spikes semi-flexible (bamboo) and point UP. They'll push them out of the way as they go up, and get shishkabobbed as they come down.
Be used for crowd control. Raise everybody in a 10' area 1' off the ground...stops riots cold. (Not to mention denying any Dex bonus to AC.)

[eggynack]

Reverse Gravity can:

Mess up missile attacks. The trajectory of arrows, rocks, etc are all affected by gravity. If gravity is off, so is the aim.
Mess up Flying creatures. Wings push against gravity, if gravity is suddenly reversed, wings slam things into the ground.
and suddenly finding your self diving head first into the ceiling.

I don't know if these two are necessarily things. Neither seems to be an actual game object within the rules, even if they may be logical outcomes.

[graeylin]

Sunbeam? If you are a druid Reverse Gravity is an 8th level spell, not 7th.

Either way. Wind Walk is an excellent 7th level spell you could have prepared as a druid. As is Heal.

D-oh, you are right. It's 8th level, I have no idea why I wrote 7th level down, and then got it stuck in my head. Maybe I should give up, I am obviously brain dead.

wind walk is banned (no teleporting, no "easy traveling" spells, per the DM's rules. I can't even move tree to tree.)

[Gavinfoxx]

D-oh, you are right. It's 8th level, I have no idea why I wrote 7th level down, and then got it stuck in my head. Maybe I should give up, I am obviously brain dead.

wind walk is banned (no teleporting, no "easy traveling" spells, per the DM's rules. I can't even move tree to tree.)

Eh, if you are a Druid, change to a flying form and FLY THERE. You read the Druid handbook? Or are you another class that has the Druid list?

[graeylin]

Reverse Gravity can:


Be used as an interrupt. Mr. Wizard will lose a round as he suddenly finds himself floating.
Be used as an attack. Float them in the air, then drop them.
suddenly reversed, wings slam things into the ground.


All the others are good (situational) ideas, thank you.

I had hoped at the least for the first item there to be an outcome, once I found out they weren't going to be hanging there like pinatas, but they just walked on the ceiling to the edge of the spell, and fell down. DR, i assume, prevented any real damage. All I cost them was a move action, they are still casting spells on the next round.

Thought about the second one too, but... move action, out of the spell, no effect.

I managed to turn a good 8th level spell (thanks eggy) into a one round entangle. Barely.

[graeylin]

Eh, if you are a Druid, change to a flying form and FLY THERE. You read the Druid handbook? Or are you another class that has the Druid list?

No shapechange in his world either. No polymorphs, alter selfs, summoning, teleports, long term fly spells, easy transport spells, gates, tree stride, wildshape, and I'm sure I am forgetting several other things.

So basically, yeah, I am "another class" that has a druid list.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does Handle Animal exist? Do you get an animal companion? Do Rocs exist? Dire Bats? Giant Eagles? Dire Eagles? Griffons? ANY of the dozens of flying mounts in the game?

[Baroknik]

It is one of my absolute favorite spells for...
Spellswords -- who can change it from an area to a single target -- THERE CAN BE NO ESCAPE!
Especially fun to do outside this way!

[Errata]

It's a potentially very powerful spell, but not for everything. Your DM seems very strict about imposing restrictions that aren't actually in the rules, so it may be that with your DM it will not be useful even under the best of circumstances. The responsibility there is with the DM and not the spell.

If you have someone hanging 100 feet in the air, with no leverage, and they don't have a fly speed, they will in fact bob helplessly until the spell ends. If you are in a tight space and knock them to the ceiling, they can just walk upside down until they're out of range of the spell and fall back down again.

In the latter case, you should still manage to waste 2 of their turns, do a little damage, and maybe get an attack of opportunity out of it. They fall twice and have to spend an action standing up from prone twice (maybe only one fall if they succeed on a challenging acrobatics check). For no save, that's not bad crowd control, although it's probably not worth the high level spell slot.

Consider that in the worst case scenario with a low ceiling, you can just shape the area of effect to be very wide instead of tall. You could potentially waste 2 whole turns for a whole army worth of things with no saving throw. That could be a big advantage for your party.

Not every spell is expected to be useful in all situations. To be a good spell it just has to be very useful in some situations, and this one definitely is. It's actually more flexible than a lot of spells in terms of how many different situations you can put it to use for.

As for the tangent about messing up flyers or arrows, that's not necessarily in the rules, but it's the sort of thing well within the discretion of a DM to make a judgement call on. I might request a flyer in that zone to make a fly skill check to determine how well they cope, and maybe impose a to hit penalty for ranged attacks across the border of that zone. Nothing too devastating in either case, but a minor penalty seems reasonable there.

[graeylin]

Does Handle Animal exist? Do you get an animal companion? Do Rocs exist? Dire Bats? Giant Eagles? Dire Eagles? Griffons? ANY of the dozens of flying mounts in the game?

yes
yes
yes, but they are not on the animal companion list
yes, they are, but I don't have one.
yes, but they are magical beasts, and not on the animal companion list
maybe, we've never run across one. they probably exist.
Yes, but they are magical beasts, and not on the animal companion list.
I am sure there are many of the dozens of flying mounts, but if we were to try to use them, they would be... banned/killed/taken away.

And, I am not sure what having a flying animal companion would help me in this 10 foot tall room.

[Invader]

No shapechange in his world either. No polymorphs, alter selfs, summoning, teleports, long term fly spells, easy transport spells, gates, tree stride, wildshape, and I'm sure I am forgetting several other things.

So basically, yeah, I am "another class" that has a druid list.

Is there even gravity in his world?

[HunterOfJello]

Reverse Gravity is a melee killer spell


Why is reverse gravity so great?
1. No Save
2. No Spell Resistance
3. The nonflying melee enemy is now in a location where it cannot attack you in melee for X rounds/level.
4. Cast it outside and the nonflying enemy is stuck in the air without any options other than dying.

[Draken]

No shapechange in his world either. No polymorphs, alter selfs, summoning, teleports, long term fly spells, easy transport spells, gates, tree stride, wildshape, and I'm sure I am forgetting several other things.

So basically, yeah, I am "another class" that has a druid list.

That leaves...

Healing, blasting and a some buffs. And kind of bans most of the good stuff druids have in their spells. Wizard is better for buffs.

I guess all that is left for your 7th level spells (corewise) is...

Gonna presume that Animate Plants and Changestaff got shafted along with summons...

Control Weather could be a goner under the no ease-of-transport act of 2014, plus not dungeoneering material.

Creeping Doom... Summon.

Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Fire Storm, Heal should be available?

Gonna guess that Scrying is a goner too.

And thus we round it out with Sunbeam, Transmute Metal to Wood and maybe True Seeing.

Sounds nice and interesting to be in your position.

[Cerlis]

In a typical dungeon, is the spell any good at all?

You send someone ten foot to the ceiling. So what? Is that it? They land on the ceiling, stand "up", walk to the edge of the spell, and fall to the floor, safe and unharmed?

Is this just a waste of a 7th 8th level spell (edited, thanks Eggyknack, for catching that) to cause a BBEG to lose his move action for the round?

I was hoping that the whole "If an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, until the spell ends" was more than fluff text, and it meant they actually stayed there, floating, but DM insists they just walk away.

No different than a meteor swarm (a 9th lvl spell) being useless against a red dragon.

Every single spell can be made useless by something.

So a reverse gravity spell being used for a 10 foot movement placement would indeed be useless.

[eggynack]

That leaves...

Healing, blasting and a some buffs. And kind of bans most of the good stuff druids have in their spells. Wizard is better for buffs.
You can do more stuff with out of core resources. Really, most 7th's and 8th's are wide area SoD/SoL's, like frostfell, leonal's roar, and word of balance. They're probably the worst levels for druid spells, however.

No different than a meteor swarm (a 9th lvl spell) being useless against a red dragon.

Every single spell can be made useless by something.

That example is mostly meteor swarm being really easy to make useless. It's next to impossible to make shapechange useless, as a counterexample. I mean, maybe some big dead magic area, or AMF, but even then you could probably pull something off if you're starting out on the outside of the region.

[Augmental]

I am sure there are many of the dozens of flying mounts, but if we were to try to use them, they would be... banned/killed/taken away.

Does your DM allow any forms of non-ground-based flight?!

[Randomguy]

While not applicable in your situation, it's also good for traps. I once heard of a spiked pit trap which had reverse gravity over it. If someone tried to jump over, they'd fall upwards through the false ceiling and into a set of downwards facing spikes. And then fall again if the trap was dispelled.


Also I guess in your situation it can sometimes be more useful: If you need to get your entire party up a 60 foot cliff or out of a 60 foot pit really fast, then you can reverse gravity your way up in one round instead of taking a while to climb, since flight is largely unavailable.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's definitely best for crowd control. I tend to use it with large objects, preferably tree tokens or animals from a bag of tricks. But if the DM rules that it's only a move action to get out of it (it seems to me at least two, since they probably land prone on the ceiling), then the coolness of the spell really is diminished.

On the other hand, it still might combo well with other BFC stuff like spike stones or wall of thorns.

Also, the ideal use is with glass flasks containing green slime (DMG 76), but based on your DM's ban list, I doubt you can use the normal methods of finding that stuff (Knowledge dungeoneering checks, usually). Reverse gravity on the target's square when the target is adjacent to you, then move action drop the flask in the square. Target falls up, flask falls on top of them, shatters, green slime. Problematic if used outside during the day, but still useful.

[chaos_redefined]

Why is the DM banning almost the entirety of the druid spell list?

[ryu]

Why is the DM banning almost the entirety of the druid spell list?

Because players can't have nice things? At his table at least.

[Loasty625]

During a large scale war my 18th level druid used reverse gravity to topple a dozen enemy siege weapons at the same time, while also stopping and disabling a massive enemy regiment mid-charge.
This is not one of those spells that has any one intended use (although some are fairly common). You need a some creativity I think to make the most of it. The fact that its a shapable and dispellable spell really helps.

[Errata]

If it's the kind of big underground chamber where you might have a showdown with a major villain, I'd expect the ceilings might be a little higher, like maybe 20-30 feet. 10 foot ceilings would be kind of claustrophobic for a large scale battle, especially one involving large or huge creatures. You could always shape it to be only 10 feet high over a large area and leave the enemies floating helplessly halfway between the floor and ceiling.


it seems to me at least two, since they probably land prone on the ceiling

More like 3 move actions unless they're really good at acrobatics. Fall to ceiling, damage, prone, 1 action standing from prone, 1 action moving from field, another fall to floor (maybe an attack of opportunity if they've fallen past threatened cubes), damage, prone, another full round during which everyone gets a chance to hit them while prone, 1 action standing (maybe an attack of opportunity if they're standing from a threatened square, which you've had a turn to move into place for).

It's definitely not convenient for them, and you can shape the spell to do it to potentially an immense number of targets simultaneously.

[eggynack]

Because players can't have nice things? At his table at least.
I dunno. It seems possible that a druid would still be reasonably powerful, even with all of those spells stripped away. You're still running BFC's, a good number of buffs, utility spells of various kinds, all of the natural disaster spells, healing (probably relevant from a condition removal perspective), blasting, SoD/SoL's, a smattering of divinations, and a few other things besides. Some of those things are pretty nice.

[ryu]

I dunno. It seems possible that a druid would still be reasonably powerful, even with all of those spells stripped away. You're still running BFC's, a good number of buffs, utility spells of various kinds, all of the natural disaster spells, healing (probably relevant from a condition removal perspective), blasting, SoD/SoL's, a smattering of divinations, and a few other things besides. Some of those things are pretty nice.

Yes, but all the little conveniences that make getting to various areas not tedious are banned, and I mean banned right down to the druid expecting any flying mounts to be immediately taken from him. At level eight spells we're talking the mid to high teens. People should not be walking at this point dangit.

[SinsI]

In a typical dungeon, is the spell any good at all?

You send someone ten foot to the ceiling. So what? Is that it? They land on the ceiling, stand "up", walk to the edge of the spell, and fall to the floor, safe and unharmed? .
If the ceiling is higher than 10 feet, you send someone ten foot UP, not to the ceiling.
They stay mid-air, flailing their hands and feet around with nothing to latch on and no way to move for the duration of the spell, becoming sitting ducks. Even if they have some method of ranged attack, they should receive a lot of penalties due to the weirdness of their position.

[eggynack]

Yes, but all the little conveniences that make getting to various areas not tedious are banned, and I mean banned right down to the druid expecting any flying mounts to be immediately taken from him. At level eight spells we're talking the mid to high teens. People should not be walking at this point dangit.
True enough. It's certainly a ban list that's silly in length, even if it would take more than that to knock down a druid.

[Seffbasilisk]

Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm)

Hit the ceiling AND the floor withe that, then reverse gravity in the middle of it, walk into it, get slashed, hit the ceiling (slashed), walk the ceiling (slashed), fall (slashed), hit the ground, and try to walk out (slashed).

[Errata]

Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm)


Good thinking, you could make a nasty combo with those, since both would allow you to cover a fairly large area. Either they stand around on the ceiling safely out of melee range for the duration of the spell, or they get hit for a bunch more damage before they can come back to the ground. And the slowed movement might mean an extra turn out of commission before they can walk out of range, even if they do decide to absorb the damage.

Spike Stones is low enough level that you might even consider quickening it to pull off both simultaneously.

[SinsI]

Actually, the best thing would be: 30 foot ceiling, 20 feet up is Reverse Gravity zone, ceiling covered in Spike Stones.
Enemy falls up accelerating for 20 feet. After than he continues to fall at decelerating rate for 10 more feet till he hits himself on the ceiling for (Spike Stones + 10 feet falling) damage. After that he plunges down for 20 feet and back up for 20 feet, (this time only for Spike Stones damage). And continues to oscillate back-and-forth, each time hitting the Spike Stones.

[TuggyNE]

Actually, the best thing would be: 30 foot ceiling, 20 feet up is Reverse Gravity zone, ceiling covered in Spike Stones.
Enemy falls up accelerating for 20 feet. After than he continues to fall at decelerating rate for 10 more feet till he hits himself on the ceiling for (Spike Stones + 10 feet falling) damage. After that he plunges down for 20 feet and back up for 20 feet, (this time only for Spike Stones damage). And continues to oscillate back-and-forth, each time hitting the Spike Stones.

That would work by Newtonian physics, but sadly the spell, like so much of D&D, does not quite actually work by that. Instead, when they hit the top of the area they just stop immediately and bob in place.

[Gavinfoxx]

In the DMG alone, these are allowed:

Giant Eagle: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training or 6th level Cohort
Giant Owl: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training or 6th level Cohort
Hippogriff: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Griffon: 7000 gp for young, +1500 for training or 10th level Cohort
Pegasus: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training or 6th level Cohort

Outside the DMG, it gets MORE available!

In 3.5e, here are the things the Druid can get as an animal companion to help with flight:

Dire Bat
Dire Eagle
Dragonhawk
Roc

depending on level. Remember you can use the ritual to summon a creature, release it, and it is just a normal creature at that point... a normal creature which can be trained.


Some things you can buy are Dire Eagle for 3250... and some of the pterosaurs are absurdly cheap! Glidewings (I think those are Pteranodon's?) are only 800 gp in Eberron Campaign Setting.

If you are having small dungeons, than just buy a few Enveloping Pits, pay some builders to build five story towers in them, make the top level of each of them a stable for the creature, and give every person their own little 'house'. Make sure to keep them open a bit if you are going to put the creature in there for more than a few hours at a time. Then, when you are outside a dungeon, let them out, mount up, and fly where you want to go!

[Chronos]

Since nobody else has mentioned it, Reverse Gravity is also a legal target for Permanency, which brings in a whole host of other options: Floating castles, perpetual motion machines, automatic siege weaponry, etc. Yeah, it's not useful for the OP's specific problem, but again, different spells for different situations.

[Arbane]

Is there even gravity in his world?

I'm wondering if it has dolphins and antimony.

[TuggyNE]

I'm wondering if it has dolphins and antimony.

Ask about cheese production.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm wondering if it has dolphins and antimony.

What is this a reference to?

[Studoku]

it can also be used to help your party get across treacherous or trapped areas.

Fall ten feet to the ceiling, walk across the ceiling above the pit, lava, pool of acid etc., then fall back to the floor on the other side.
The problem with this is, while it's novel, you have 7th level spells. Fly is 3rd level, Dimension door is 4th and both solve any areas which this would work on.

[TuggyNE]

What is this a reference to?

Chief Circle Marty "Katana" Stu's horrible abomination of a game, which has fully three threads and a blog (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/) dedicated to its atrocities. Among many other unpleasant quirks, the element antimony did not exist in that universe, and neither did dolphins, presumably because the players wished to involve them in their creative ideas.